Alan, you're absolutely right. There's a fundamental flaw in the arguments that have been provided on the list. Facts are facts. Whether you like them or not, they exist, and they ARE. You can change the facts, but that requires work. You can sit and bash facts and pretend they don't exist, but they inherently do, and pretending they don't is simply ridiculous. I, too, have met Africans who are appalled by the culture prevalent across the United States, especially in urban settings. I have met southerners who are appalled by the behavior of certain southerners in the past. You have to remember -- just because someone in the past did something abhorent, does NOT mean that their children are at fault, or that their grandchildren are at fault. The behavior of one person does NOT necessarily reflect on the behavior of those around him. Alan is absolutely right - this crap does exist, and being PC about it will NOT fix the problem. If the truth hurts, fix it, don't ignore it. The Tavis Smiley Show is a typical rubbish show, and is absolutely one of the most racist/separatist means of propaganda I've heard since.... when. It's vile, disgusting bilge-water that is simply useless and in the way of progress. Alan and I may not agree all the time, but for god's sake he's got one hell of a good point. One more thing: do not speak for other people when you, for example, claim that GWBush is a bigot or racist fuck. I don't think you can make that broad sweeping generalization without making yourself look foolish. Racism exists in all walks of life, and applies to every situation. -B