i see your point on abortion but i dont really agree with the death penalty mainly because you get cases that are wrong wouldnt it be hell if you were in the wrong place at the wrong time and then YOU ended up on death row for something you didnt do i also think there are wider questions relating to society how we brainwash and beat people down with wage slavery and inspire consumer type personalities that need all the things that are presented to them on tv... the problem comes when you dont have enough money to buy all the things that everyone else around you has i suppose... i mean if you believe the hype that is.. my point being is that we create 'criminals' look around you... you grow up in some shit neighbourhood with no chances you feel powerless to do anything to change your life.. i feel its almost a contradiction to present the american lifestyle to people and then complain when they go mad and shoot everyone... what the fuck do they expect ? also there are less over the top examples im sure like perhaps getting thrown in jail for taking drugs which i believe are nothing to do with government how you use your body is your own business in my book and no government will tell me what i can do with it.. and not specifically relating to death row but another obvious point being the more laws you make the more criminals there are... eventually resulting in a ridiculous racist situation like you have over there.. which will probably get worse but again the most important point in the world right now is israel.. its been going on the longest i think they will just try and crush the palestinians much like your country crushed the native american indians i hope not though.. __ kwis )) (( c[_] scuse the epenthesis ***************************** On 10 Dec 2004, at 18:11, Ken Erxleben wrote: hey kris - i surely don't hate you for what i think is your delusional world view so please don't hate on me ;) just to clear up my stance on things: there is a difference between an abortion and the death penalty - one person is a criminal and the other is 420% innocent. now with abortion....the conflict obviously comes from "when is a fetus a human life?" my view is that it is a human life after a certain amount of months of development - before the child is born. when you can look at a sonagram and see a fully formed child with all human features and that child is moving around yada.....that's a damn person in there. so just as you can say "who are we to decide what happens to a woman" we can also say who is that woman to decide a baby should die? after all SHE was the one that created it. sure it takes two for that tango but I honestly feel that in the end it's the womans fault - because she is the one getting pregnant and she COULD have prevented it. the baby can and should be given up for adoption if the child is unwanted. My biggest beef with abortion is using it as a form of birth control for STUPID women. so obviously you all don't think a baby is a human until it is born....so we'll really have to agree to disagree. as for the death penalty - these people are criminals. sure.....we commit the act of murder by killing them - but you know what? you've done some serious vile shit against humanity to get yourself in that situation in the first place. sure a couple of innocents have been put to death for crimes they didn't commit.....but that percentage is REALLY f'n small. and it doesn't change the convictions for those that support the death penalty. plenty of people have jail sentences for crimes they didn't commit.....but we're not giving up on jailing criminals are we? i've heard before that executing the death penalty costs more than life in prison. well.....that gap can surely be reduced by taking away televisions, weights, schooling.....and all of the other cushy bullshit we give to convicts. they have WAY too many luxuries in there. they deserve to be treated like the animals they have proved themselves to be. as for the comment about the more strict - the more criminals doesn't syngapore have like the most strict punishments in the world? and is pretty much one of the safest places in the world? really i don't care though - there are too many criminals that know they can "get off" if they get caught and that provides incentive and reasoning for commiting a crime. _______________________________________________ Orb mailing list Orb@mailman.xmission.com http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/orb Report list abuse to list-abuse at studio-nibble.com