Neil, I'm gonna make my case for the topping lift here and oddly enough, I find myself opposite of what Harry Pattison was saying to do when he talked about reefing (and I have the utmost respect for Harry). However this is what works for us, how we do it ,and the rational that I put behind my actions. I am certainly not saying that this is THE way to do it, just a process that we use, have used for years, and works for us. I am a big fan of my topping lift. It allows me to get the forward reef point at the luff secured prior to the hauling in the aft reef point. The reason I do this is so that I can get the luff tensioned properly before I put rearward tension on the sail slugs. If you tension the rear reef point first you put a great deal of tension on those individual slugs, then, to make matters worse, you go to tension the luff and ask those slugs to now try to slide in the track with all that tension on them. If, though, you tension the luff good and tight prior to hauling the aft reef point in, the tension created on the luff by the rearward pull of the aft reef is not point loaded just on the little plastic slugs. I have seen a sloppily reefed main completely "unzip" from the mast when the point loaded plastic slugs just gave up and broke one after another from head to foot. The guy had tensioned the aft reef point first and the luff was very loose and "scalloped" between the slugs, indicating that it was way too loose. The method I use is to always have the topping lift attached to the boom. I then release and lower the halyard to a preset mark (sharpies work great for this) that I know gets the halyard loose enough to allow the forward reef point to get all the way down to the boom. Then, I haul in the forward reef line (or attach the reef cringle into the reef hook depending on which system you use). Now , I tighten the luff TIGHT. You want it tight so that 1. it spreads the load from the rear reef point all along the luff and not just onto the slugs. and 2. You are trying to de-power the sail. The last thing you want is a deep draft in an aft position....by tightening the luff you move the position of draft forward and by having a tight rear reef point you will flatten the sail reducing the depth of the draft and assist in de-powering the main. If you put a sloppy reef in you are defeating the purpose, especially for going to weather. So, after I have the luff lowered, attached and tensioned, Now I haul in the rear reef point. The whole time I am working on the luff, the topping lift has been holding the boom. The rear reef point needs to be hauled both "back" and "down". In other words, the line that is pulling the rear reef cringle down should be leaving the reef cringle and going to the reef block at a 45 degree angle so it gives both directions of pull, out AND down (this is when the reef point is hauled into position at the boom ). If it is not at a 45 degree angle of pull, you will either have a loose foot or a loose leach...both detrimental to the performance of the reef. Only now should the mid sail reef points be secured and they are only secured loosely to control and gather up fabric. They are not re-enforced or designed to handle ANY loads. If you sail is loose footed you can gather just fabric and not go around the boom. If you have to go around the boom, you need to make absolutely sure that the nettles (the lines used to tie up the fabric) take absolutely no load or they will rip out with devastating results for your sail. Also, you must release the nettles first when shaking out the reef and make sure that your front and rear reef points are absolutely secured when the reef is tucked. If one of them releases while under load and the nettles are secured around the boom the mid sail reef points will most likely rip out. Jo and I have been able to get to where we can tuck a good reef in under a minute and it has made our sailing way more fun and much more relaxed. I have had boom kickers and rigid vangs and although they will "hold the boom up" they are not a solid "hold". In other words, if in the process of tucking the reef you need to haul downward on a line that is attached to the boom like an aft reef line, or if you lose you balance and try to use the boom to regain it, ..the back of the boom will continue to drop down as you add force or weight to it. At least that was the case with the ones I used. They are able to hold up the weight of the boom and a little more...but my big a$$ stumbling over a goldendoodle and grabbing the boom for support would cause the boom to just drop down. It's just a personal preference, but for me an adjustable topping lift is much better. Of course all the above is qualified by "IMHO" and as my friend Gary O always states: "your actual mileage may vary!" hehehe ok..well, enough of me rattling on...waiting for the breeze to come up here in San Diego so we can get one more day of sailing in before heading back to the land of powerboats! Sean M23 "Dauntless" _www.havasumontgomerys.piczo.com_ (http://www.havasumontgomerys.piczo.com)
Nebwest2@aol.com wrote: Hi Gang, I too prefer a topping lift rather than hooking the boom to a strap attached to the backstay. The topping lift allows the sail/boom to adjust to the wind gusts: a fixed point of attachment to the back stay give you no leeway if the boat's heading changes; or you get hit with a gust. You might as well have the main sheet cleated. The fixed boom attachment point to the back stay is fine at anchor, and after the mainsail is furled; not as a means of holding the boom to put in a reef. Connie
Neil,
I'm gonna make my case for the topping lift here and oddly enough, I find myself opposite of what Harry Pattison was saying to do when he talked about reefing (and I have the utmost respect for Harry). However this is what works for us, how we do it ,and the rational that I put behind my actions. I am certainly not saying that this is THE way to do it, just a process that we use, have used for years, and works for us.
I am a big fan of my topping lift. It allows me to get the forward reef point at the luff secured prior to the hauling in the aft reef point. The reason I do this is so that I can get the luff tensioned properly before I put rearward tension on the sail slugs. If you tension the rear reef point first you put a great deal of tension on those individual slugs, then, to make matters worse, you go to tension the luff and ask those slugs to now try to slide in the track with all that tension on them. If, though, you tension the luff good and tight prior to hauling the aft reef point in, the tension created on the luff by the rearward pull of the aft reef is not point loaded just on the little plastic slugs. I have seen a sloppily reefed main completely "unzip" from the mast when the point loaded plastic slugs just gave up and broke one after another from head to foot. The guy had tensioned the aft reef point first and the luff was very loose and "scalloped" between the slugs, indicating that it was way too loose.
The method I use is to always have the topping lift attached to the boom. I then release and lower the halyard to a preset mark (sharpies work great for this) that I know gets the halyard loose enough to allow the forward reef point to get all the way down to the boom. Then, I haul in the forward reef line (or attach the reef cringle into the reef hook depending on which system you use). Now , I tighten the luff TIGHT. You want it tight so that 1. it spreads the load from the rear reef point all along the luff and not just onto the slugs. and 2. You are trying to de-power the sail. The last thing you want is a deep draft in an aft position....by tightening the luff you move the position of draft forward and by having a tight rear reef point you will flatten the sail reducing the depth of the draft and assist in de-powering the main. If you put a sloppy reef in you are defeating the purpose, especially for going to weather. So, after I have the luff lowered, attached and tensioned, Now I haul in the rear reef point. The whole time I am working on the luff, the topping lift has been holding the boom. The rear reef point needs to be hauled both "back" and "down". In other words, the line that is pulling the rear reef cringle down should be leaving the reef cringle and going to the reef block at a 45 degree angle so it gives both directions of pull, out AND down (this is when the reef point is hauled into position at the boom ). If it is not at a 45 degree angle of pull, you will either have a loose foot or a loose leach...both detrimental to the performance of the reef. Only now should the mid sail reef points be secured and they are only secured loosely to control and gather up fabric. They are not re-enforced or designed to handle ANY loads. If you sail is loose footed you can gather just fabric and not go around the boom. If you have to go around the boom, you need to make absolutely sure that the nettles (the lines used to tie up the fabric) take absolutely no load or they will rip out with devastating results for your sail. Also, you must release the nettles first when shaking out the reef and make sure that your front and rear reef points are absolutely secured when the reef is tucked. If one of them releases while under load and the nettles are secured around the boom the mid sail reef points will most likely rip out.
Jo and I have been able to get to where we can tuck a good reef in under a minute and it has made our sailing way more fun and much more relaxed. I have had boom kickers and rigid vangs and although they will "hold the boom up" they are not a solid "hold". In other words, if in the process of tucking the reef you need to haul downward on a line that is attached to the boom like an aft reef line, or if you lose you balance and try to use the boom to regain it, ..the back of the boom will continue to drop down as you add force or weight to it. At least that was the case with the ones I used. They are able to hold up the weight of the boom and a little more...but my big a$$ stumbling over a goldendoodle and grabbing the boom for support would cause the boom to just drop down. It's just a personal preference, but for me an adjustable topping lift is much better.
Of course all the above is qualified by "IMHO" and as my friend Gary O always states: "your actual mileage may vary!" hehehe
ok..well, enough of me rattling on...waiting for the breeze to come up here in San Diego so we can get one more day of sailing in before heading back to the land of powerboats!
Sean M23 "Dauntless" _www.havasumontgomerys.piczo.com_ (http://www.havasumontgomerys.piczo.com) _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
I use both a Topping lift and a strap swaged into the backstay. The strap is only for when the sail is down, for better stability of the boom, such as having a boom tent in place. Topping lift is slack when the sail is up fully, holds the boom up during reefing. Thomas Howe Mailto:Thomas@TEHowe.com O --------(\ ---------- ~ (\ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Conbert H. Benneck Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:51 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: topping lifts and reefing Nebwest2@aol.com wrote: Hi Gang, I too prefer a topping lift rather than hooking the boom to a strap attached to the backstay. The topping lift allows the sail/boom to adjust to the wind gusts: a fixed point of attachment to the back stay give you no leeway if the boat's heading changes; or you get hit with a gust. You might as well have the main sheet cleated. The fixed boom attachment point to the back stay is fine at anchor, and after the mainsail is furled; not as a means of holding the boom to put in a reef. Connie
Neil,
I'm gonna make my case for the topping lift here and oddly enough, I find
myself opposite of what Harry Pattison was saying to do when he talked about reefing (and I have the utmost respect for Harry). However this is what works for us, how we do it ,and the rational that I put behind my actions. I am certainly not saying that this is THE way to do it, just a process that we use, have used for years, and works for us.
I am a big fan of my topping lift. It allows me to get the forward reef point at the luff secured prior to the hauling in the aft reef point. The reason I do this is so that I can get the luff tensioned properly before I put rearward tension on the sail slugs. If you tension the rear reef point first you put a great deal of tension on those individual slugs, then, to make matters worse, you go to tension the luff and ask those slugs to now try to slide in the track with all that tension on them. If, though, you tension the luff good and tight prior to hauling the aft reef point in, the tension created on the luff by the rearward pull of the aft reef is not point loaded just on the little plastic slugs. I have seen a sloppily reefed main completely "unzip" from the mast when the point loaded plastic slugs just
gave up and broke one after another from head to foot. The guy had tensioned the aft reef point first and the luff was very loose and "scalloped" between the slugs, indicating that it was way too loose.
The method I use is to always have the topping lift attached to the boom. I then release and lower the halyard to a preset mark (sharpies work great for this) that I know gets the halyard loose enough to allow the forward reef point to get all the way down to the boom. Then, I haul in the forward reef line (or attach the reef cringle into the reef hook depending on which system you use). Now , I tighten the luff TIGHT. You want it tight so that 1. it spreads the load from the rear reef point all along the luff and not just onto the slugs. and 2. You are trying to de-power the sail. The last
thing you want is a deep draft in an aft position....by tightening the luff you move the position of draft forward and by having a tight rear reef point you will flatten the sail reducing the depth of the draft and assist in de-powering the main. If you put a sloppy reef in you are defeating the purpose, especially for going to weather. So, after I have the luff lowered, attached and tensioned, Now I haul in the rear reef point. The whole time I am working on the luff, the topping lift has been holding the boom. The rear reef point needs to be hauled both "back" and "down". In other words, the
line that is pulling the rear reef cringle down should be leaving the reef cringle and going to the reef block at a 45 degree angle so it gives both
directions of pull, out AND down (this is when the reef point is hauled into position at the boom ). If it is not at a 45 degree angle of pull, you will either have a loose foot or a loose leach...both detrimental to the performance of the reef. Only now should the mid sail reef points be secured and they are only secured loosely to control and gather up fabric. They are not re-enforced or designed to handle ANY loads. If you sail is loose footed you can gather just fabric and not go around the boom. If you have to go around the boom, you need to make absolutely sure that the nettles (the lines used to tie up the fabric) take absolutely no load or they will rip out with devastating results for your sail. Also, you must release the nettles first when shaking out the reef and make sure that your front and rear reef points are absolutely secured when the reef is tucked. If one of them releases while under load and the nettles are secured around the boom the mid sail reef points will most likely rip out.
Jo and I have been able to get to where we can tuck a good reef in under a
minute and it has made our sailing way more fun and much more relaxed. I have had boom kickers and rigid vangs and although they will "hold the boom up" they are not a solid "hold". In other words, if in the process of tucking the reef you need to haul downward on a line that is attached to the boom like an aft reef line, or if you lose you balance and try to use the boom
to regain it, ..the back of the boom will continue to drop down as you add force or weight to it. At least that was the case with the ones I used.
They are able to hold up the weight of the boom and a little more...but my
big a$$ stumbling over a goldendoodle and grabbing the boom for support would cause the boom to just drop down. It's just a personal preference, but for me an adjustable topping lift is much better.
Of course all the above is qualified by "IMHO" and as my friend Gary O always states: "your actual mileage may vary!" hehehe
ok..well, enough of me rattling on...waiting for the breeze to come up here in San Diego so we can get one more day of sailing in before heading back
to the land of powerboats!
Sean M23 "Dauntless" _www.havasumontgomerys.piczo.com_ (http://www.havasumontgomerys.piczo.com)
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
I am adding a topping lift in the next few weeks. Boat came without one when we bought it last year. Do most fix the topping lift at the boom end, and cleat it at the foot of the mast, or do you cleat it on the boom, possibly after a cheek block at boom end with it fixed at the mast head? If your topping lift leads back down the mast, how have you added a turning block at that mast head? Did you just lash or shackle a small swivel block to the pin that holds the main halyard sheave? Thanks, Bill Wickett M17 Makin' Time On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 8:59 PM, Thomas Howe <Thomas@thomashoweonline.com>wrote:
I use both a Topping lift and a strap swaged into the backstay. The strap is only for when the sail is down, for better stability of the boom, such as having a boom tent in place. Topping lift is slack when the sail is up fully, holds the boom up during reefing.
Thomas Howe Mailto:Thomas@TEHowe.com O --------(\ ---------- ~ (\ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Conbert H. Benneck Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:51 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: topping lifts and reefing
Nebwest2@aol.com wrote:
Hi Gang,
I too prefer a topping lift rather than hooking the boom to a strap attached to the backstay.
The topping lift allows the sail/boom to adjust to the wind gusts: a fixed point of attachment to the back stay give you no leeway if the boat's heading changes; or you get hit with a gust. You might as well have the main sheet cleated.
The fixed boom attachment point to the back stay is fine at anchor, and after the mainsail is furled; not as a means of holding the boom to put in a reef.
Connie
Neil,
I'm gonna make my case for the topping lift here and oddly enough, I find
myself opposite of what Harry Pattison was saying to do when he talked about reefing (and I have the utmost respect for Harry). However this is what works for us, how we do it ,and the rational that I put behind my actions. I am certainly not saying that this is THE way to do it, just a process that we use, have used for years, and works for us.
I am a big fan of my topping lift. It allows me to get the forward reef point at the luff secured prior to the hauling in the aft reef point. The reason I do this is so that I can get the luff tensioned properly before I put rearward tension on the sail slugs. If you tension the rear reef point first you put a great deal of tension on those individual slugs, then, to make matters worse, you go to tension the luff and ask those slugs to now try to slide in the track with all that tension on them. If, though, you tension the luff good and tight prior to hauling the aft reef point in, the tension created on the luff by the rearward pull of the aft reef is not point loaded just on the little plastic slugs. I have seen a sloppily reefed main completely "unzip" from the mast when the point loaded plastic slugs just
gave up and broke one after another from head to foot. The guy had tensioned the aft reef point first and the luff was very loose and "scalloped" between the slugs, indicating that it was way too loose.
The method I use is to always have the topping lift attached to the boom. I then release and lower the halyard to a preset mark (sharpies work great for this) that I know gets the halyard loose enough to allow the forward reef point to get all the way down to the boom. Then, I haul in the forward reef line (or attach the reef cringle into the reef hook depending on which system you use). Now , I tighten the luff TIGHT. You want it tight so that 1. it spreads the load from the rear reef point all along the luff and not just onto the slugs. and 2. You are trying to de-power the sail. The last
thing you want is a deep draft in an aft position....by tightening the luff you move the position of draft forward and by having a tight rear reef point you will flatten the sail reducing the depth of the draft and assist in de-powering the main. If you put a sloppy reef in you are defeating the purpose, especially for going to weather. So, after I have the luff lowered, attached and tensioned, Now I haul in the rear reef point. The whole time I am working on the luff, the topping lift has been holding the boom. The rear reef point needs to be hauled both "back" and "down". In other words, the
line that is pulling the rear reef cringle down should be leaving the reef cringle and going to the reef block at a 45 degree angle so it gives both
directions of pull, out AND down (this is when the reef point is hauled into position at the boom ). If it is not at a 45 degree angle of pull, you will either have a loose foot or a loose leach...both detrimental to the performance of the reef. Only now should the mid sail reef points be secured and they are only secured loosely to control and gather up fabric. They are not re-enforced or designed to handle ANY loads. If you sail is loose footed you can gather just fabric and not go around the boom. If you have to go around the boom, you need to make absolutely sure that the nettles (the lines used to tie up the fabric) take absolutely no load or they will rip out with devastating results for your sail. Also, you must release the nettles first when shaking out the reef and make sure that your front and rear reef points are absolutely secured when the reef is tucked. If one of them releases while under load and the nettles are secured around the boom the mid sail reef points will most likely rip out.
Jo and I have been able to get to where we can tuck a good reef in under a
minute and it has made our sailing way more fun and much more relaxed. I have had boom kickers and rigid vangs and although they will "hold the boom up" they are not a solid "hold". In other words, if in the process of tucking the reef you need to haul downward on a line that is attached to the boom like an aft reef line, or if you lose you balance and try to use the boom
to regain it, ..the back of the boom will continue to drop down as you add force or weight to it. At least that was the case with the ones I used.
They are able to hold up the weight of the boom and a little more...but my
big a$$ stumbling over a goldendoodle and grabbing the boom for support would cause the boom to just drop down. It's just a personal preference, but for me an adjustable topping lift is much better.
Of course all the above is qualified by "IMHO" and as my friend Gary O always states: "your actual mileage may vary!" hehehe
ok..well, enough of me rattling on...waiting for the breeze to come up here in San Diego so we can get one more day of sailing in before heading back
to the land of powerboats!
Sean M23 "Dauntless" _www.havasumontgomerys.piczo.com_ ( http://www.havasumontgomerys.piczo.com)
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
I put a micro swivel block on the backstay pin, and have the line tied to a cleat on the mast, just short enough to keep the boom off the deck. Then I adjust it as needed, which may be low or high or anywhere in between, and if I accidently let the line slip, the boom can't hit the deck. Tod Mills M17 #408, 1987 galley model BuscaBrisas
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Bill Wickett Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 9:13 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: topping lifts and reefing
I am adding a topping lift in the next few weeks. Boat came without one when we bought it last year. Do most fix the topping lift at the boom end, and cleat it at the foot of the mast, or do you cleat it on the boom, possibly after a cheek block at boom end with it fixed at the mast head? If your topping lift leads back down the mast, how have you added a turning block at that mast head? Did you just lash or shackle a small swivel block to the pin that holds the main halyard sheave?
Thanks,
Bill Wickett M17 Makin' Time
On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 8:59 PM, Thomas Howe <Thomas@thomashoweonline.com>wrote:
I use both a Topping lift and a strap swaged into the backstay. The strap is only for when the sail is down, for better stability of the boom, such as having a boom tent in place. Topping lift is slack when the sail is up fully, holds the boom up during reefing.
Thomas Howe Mailto:Thomas@TEHowe.com O --------(\ ---------- ~ (\ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Conbert H. Benneck Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:51 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: topping lifts and reefing
Nebwest2@aol.com wrote:
Hi Gang,
I too prefer a topping lift rather than hooking the boom to a strap attached to the backstay.
The topping lift allows the sail/boom to adjust to the wind gusts: a fixed point of attachment to the back stay give you no leeway if the boat's heading changes; or you get hit with a gust. You might as well have the main sheet cleated.
The fixed boom attachment point to the back stay is fine at anchor, and after the mainsail is furled; not as a means of holding the boom to put in a reef.
Connie
Neil,
I'm gonna make my case for the topping lift here and oddly enough, I find
myself opposite of what Harry Pattison was saying to do when he talked about reefing (and I have the utmost respect for Harry). However this is what works for us, how we do it ,and the rational that I put behind my actions. I am certainly not saying that this is THE way to do it, just a process that we use, have used for years, and works for us.
I am a big fan of my topping lift. It allows me to get the forward reef point at the luff secured prior to the hauling in the aft reef point. The reason I do this is so that I can get the luff tensioned properly before I put rearward tension on the sail slugs. If you tension the rear reef point first you put a great deal of tension on those individual slugs, then, to make matters worse, you go to tension the luff and ask those slugs to now try to slide in the track with all that tension on them. If, though, you tension the luff good and tight prior to hauling the aft reef point in, the tension created on the luff by the rearward pull of the aft reef is not point loaded just on the little plastic slugs. I have seen a sloppily reefed main completely "unzip" from the mast when the point loaded plastic slugs just
gave up and broke one after another from head to foot. The guy had tensioned the aft reef point first and the luff was very loose and "scalloped" between the slugs, indicating that it was way too loose.
The method I use is to always have the topping lift attached to the boom. I then release and lower the halyard to a preset mark (sharpies work great for this) that I know gets the halyard loose enough to allow the forward reef point to get all the way down to the boom. Then, I haul in the forward reef line (or attach the reef cringle into the reef hook depending on which system you use). Now , I tighten the luff TIGHT. You want it tight so that 1. it spreads the load from the rear reef point all along the luff and not just onto the slugs. and 2. You are trying to de-power the sail. The last
thing you want is a deep draft in an aft position....by tightening the luff you move the position of draft forward and by having a tight rear reef point you will flatten the sail reducing the depth of the draft and assist in de-powering the main. If you put a sloppy reef in you are defeating the purpose, especially for going to weather. So, after I have the luff lowered, attached and tensioned, Now I haul in the rear reef point. The whole time I am working on the luff, the topping lift has been holding the boom. The rear reef point needs to be hauled both "back" and "down". In other words, the
line that is pulling the rear reef cringle down should be leaving the reef cringle and going to the reef block at a 45 degree angle so it gives both
directions of pull, out AND down (this is when the reef point is hauled into position at the boom ). If it is not at a 45 degree angle of pull, you will either have a loose foot or a loose leach...both detrimental to the performance of the reef. Only now should the mid sail reef points be secured and they are only secured loosely to control and gather up fabric. They are not re-enforced or designed to handle ANY loads. If you sail is loose footed you can gather just fabric and not go around the boom. If you have to go around the boom, you need to make absolutely sure that the nettles (the lines used to tie up the fabric) take absolutely no load or they will rip out with devastating results for your sail. Also, you must release the nettles first when shaking out the reef and make sure that your front and rear reef points are absolutely secured when the reef is tucked. If one of them releases while under load and the nettles are secured around the boom the mid sail reef points will most likely rip out.
Jo and I have been able to get to where we can tuck a good reef in under a
minute and it has made our sailing way more fun and much more relaxed. I have had boom kickers and rigid vangs and although they will "hold the boom up" they are not a solid "hold". In other words, if in the process of tucking the reef you need to haul downward on a line that is attached to the boom like an aft reef line, or if you lose you balance and try to use the boom
to regain it, ..the back of the boom will continue to drop down as you add force or weight to it. At least that was the case with the ones I used.
They are able to hold up the weight of the boom and a little more...but my
big a$$ stumbling over a goldendoodle and grabbing the boom for support would cause the boom to just drop down. It's just a personal preference, but for me an adjustable topping lift is much better.
Of course all the above is qualified by "IMHO" and as my friend Gary O always states: "your actual mileage may vary!" hehehe
ok..well, enough of me rattling on...waiting for the breeze to come up here in San Diego so we can get one more day of sailing in before heading back
to the land of powerboats!
Sean M23 "Dauntless" _www.havasumontgomerys.piczo.com_ ( http://www.havasumontgomerys.piczo.com)
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I have mine fastened at the mast head, and use a sliding knot, like one used for tent guy lines, (I can't remember the name) to fasten the aft end of the boom and to adjust the height. Simple. Thomas Howe Mailto:Thomas@TEHowe.com O --------(\ ---------- ~ (\ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of htmills@zoominternet.net Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 8:17 PM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Subject: Re: M_Boats: topping lifts and reefing I put a micro swivel block on the backstay pin, and have the line tied to a cleat on the mast, just short enough to keep the boom off the deck. Then I adjust it as needed, which may be low or high or anywhere in between, and if I accidently let the line slip, the boom can't hit the deck. Tod Mills M17 #408, 1987 galley model BuscaBrisas
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Bill Wickett Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 9:13 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: topping lifts and reefing
I am adding a topping lift in the next few weeks. Boat came without one when we bought it last year. Do most fix the topping lift at the boom end, and cleat it at the foot of the mast, or do you cleat it on the boom, possibly after a cheek block at boom end with it fixed at the mast head? If your topping lift leads back down the mast, how have you added a turning block at that mast head? Did you just lash or shackle a small swivel block to the pin that holds the main halyard sheave?
Thanks,
Bill Wickett M17 Makin' Time
On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 8:59 PM, Thomas Howe <Thomas@thomashoweonline.com>wrote:
I use both a Topping lift and a strap swaged into the backstay. The strap is only for when the sail is down, for better stability of the boom, such as having a boom tent in place. Topping lift is slack when the sail is up fully, holds the boom up during reefing.
Thomas Howe Mailto:Thomas@TEHowe.com O --------(\ ---------- ~ (\ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Conbert H. Benneck Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:51 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: topping lifts and reefing
Nebwest2@aol.com wrote:
Hi Gang,
I too prefer a topping lift rather than hooking the boom to a strap attached to the backstay.
The topping lift allows the sail/boom to adjust to the wind gusts: a fixed point of attachment to the back stay give you no leeway if the boat's heading changes; or you get hit with a gust. You might as well have the main sheet cleated.
The fixed boom attachment point to the back stay is fine at anchor, and after the mainsail is furled; not as a means of holding the boom to put in a reef.
Connie
Neil,
I'm gonna make my case for the topping lift here and oddly enough, I find
myself opposite of what Harry Pattison was saying to do when he talked about reefing (and I have the utmost respect for Harry). However this is what works for us, how we do it ,and the rational that I put behind my actions. I am certainly not saying that this is THE way to do it, just a process that we use, have used for years, and works for us.
I am a big fan of my topping lift. It allows me to get the forward reef point at the luff secured prior to the hauling in the aft reef point. The reason I do this is so that I can get the luff tensioned properly before I put rearward tension on the sail slugs. If you tension the rear reef point first you put a great deal of tension on those individual slugs, then, to make matters worse, you go to tension the luff and ask those slugs to now try to slide in the track with all that tension on them. If, though, you tension the luff good and tight prior to hauling the aft reef point in, the tension created on the luff by the rearward pull of the aft reef is not point loaded just on the little plastic slugs. I have seen a sloppily reefed main completely "unzip" from the mast when the point loaded plastic slugs just
gave up and broke one after another from head to foot. The guy had tensioned the aft reef point first and the luff was very loose and "scalloped" between the slugs, indicating that it was way too loose.
The method I use is to always have the topping lift attached to the boom. I then release and lower the halyard to a preset mark (sharpies work great for this) that I know gets the halyard loose enough to allow the forward reef point to get all the way down to the boom. Then, I haul in the forward reef line (or attach the reef cringle into the reef hook depending on which system you use). Now , I tighten the luff TIGHT. You want it tight so that 1. it spreads the load from the rear reef point all along the luff and not just onto the slugs. and 2. You are trying to de-power the sail. The last
thing you want is a deep draft in an aft position....by tightening the luff you move the position of draft forward and by having a tight rear reef point you will flatten the sail reducing the depth of the draft and assist in de-powering the main. If you put a sloppy reef in you are defeating the purpose, especially for going to weather. So, after I have the luff lowered, attached and tensioned, Now I haul in the rear reef point. The whole time I am working on the luff, the topping lift has been holding the boom. The rear reef point needs to be hauled both "back" and "down". In other words, the
line that is pulling the rear reef cringle down should be leaving the reef cringle and going to the reef block at a 45 degree angle so it gives both
directions of pull, out AND down (this is when the reef point is hauled into position at the boom ). If it is not at a 45 degree angle of pull, you will either have a loose foot or a loose leach...both detrimental to the performance of the reef. Only now should the mid sail reef points be secured and they are only secured loosely to control and gather up fabric. They are not re-enforced or designed to handle ANY loads. If you sail is loose footed you can gather just fabric and not go around the boom. If you have to go around the boom, you need to make absolutely sure that the nettles (the lines used to tie up the fabric) take absolutely no load or they will rip out with devastating results for your sail. Also, you must release the nettles first when shaking out the reef and make sure that your front and rear reef points are absolutely secured when the reef is tucked. If one of them releases while under load and the nettles are secured around the boom the mid sail reef points will most likely rip out.
Jo and I have been able to get to where we can tuck a good reef in under a
minute and it has made our sailing way more fun and much more relaxed. I have had boom kickers and rigid vangs and although they will "hold the boom up" they are not a solid "hold". In other words, if in the process of tucking the reef you need to haul downward on a line that is attached to the boom like an aft reef line, or if you lose you balance and try to use the boom
to regain it, ..the back of the boom will continue to drop down as you add force or weight to it. At least that was the case with the ones I used.
They are able to hold up the weight of the boom and a little more...but my
big a$$ stumbling over a goldendoodle and grabbing the boom for support would cause the boom to just drop down. It's just a personal preference, but for me an adjustable topping lift is much better.
Of course all the above is qualified by "IMHO" and as my friend Gary O always states: "your actual mileage may vary!" hehehe
ok..well, enough of me rattling on...waiting for the breeze to come up here in San Diego so we can get one more day of sailing in before heading back
to the land of powerboats!
Sean M23 "Dauntless" _www.havasumontgomerys.piczo.com_ ( http://www.havasumontgomerys.piczo.com)
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Spirit's topping lift is similar to the stock setup with the line secured at the masthead, coming down through a cheek block at the boom end, then forward to a jam cleat (with integral fairlead) on the boom. I've found that it's easier to reach the boom for adjustments than the mast. It also makes mounting the boom easier. I rig the topping lift while the boom is still on the v-berth. Then I let the topping lift "hold" the aft end while I stand in the companionway and slide the gooseneck into the mast groove. Reverse this process at the end of the day and the boom practically stows itself in the v- berth. Very quick and always under control. A topping lift is one of those things that no serious racer would have, and no seasoned cruiser would be without. -Jim On Apr 24, 2010, at 6:16 PM, <htmills@zoominternet.net> wrote:
I put a micro swivel block on the backstay pin, and have the line tied to a cleat on the mast, just short enough to keep the boom off the deck. Then I adjust it as needed, which may be low or high or anywhere in between, and if I accidently let the line slip, the boom can't hit the deck.
Tod Mills M17 #408, 1987 galley model BuscaBrisas
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Bill Wickett Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 9:13 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: topping lifts and reefing
I am adding a topping lift in the next few weeks. Boat came without one when we bought it last year. Do most fix the topping lift at the boom end, and cleat it at the foot of the mast, or do you cleat it on the boom, possibly after a cheek block at boom end with it fixed at the mast head? If your topping lift leads back down the mast, how have you added a turning block at that mast head? Did you just lash or shackle a small swivel block to the pin that holds the main halyard sheave?
Thanks,
Bill Wickett M17 Makin' Time
On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 8:59 PM, Thomas Howe <Thomas@thomashoweonline.com>wrote:
I use both a Topping lift and a strap swaged into the backstay. The strap is only for when the sail is down, for better stability of the boom, such as having a boom tent in place. Topping lift is slack when the sail is up fully, holds the boom up during reefing.
Thomas Howe Mailto:Thomas@TEHowe.com O --------(\ ---------- ~ (\ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Conbert H. Benneck Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:51 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: topping lifts and reefing
Nebwest2@aol.com wrote:
Hi Gang,
I too prefer a topping lift rather than hooking the boom to a strap attached to the backstay.
The topping lift allows the sail/boom to adjust to the wind gusts: a fixed point of attachment to the back stay give you no leeway if the boat's heading changes; or you get hit with a gust. You might as well have the main sheet cleated.
The fixed boom attachment point to the back stay is fine at anchor, and after the mainsail is furled; not as a means of holding the boom to put in a reef.
Connie
Neil,
I'm gonna make my case for the topping lift here and oddly enough, I find
myself opposite of what Harry Pattison was saying to do when he talked about reefing (and I have the utmost respect for Harry). However this is what works for us, how we do it ,and the rational that I put behind my actions. I am certainly not saying that this is THE way to do it, just a process that we use, have used for years, and works for us.
I am a big fan of my topping lift. It allows me to get the forward reef point at the luff secured prior to the hauling in the aft reef point. The reason I do this is so that I can get the luff tensioned properly before I put rearward tension on the sail slugs. If you tension the rear reef point first you put a great deal of tension on those individual slugs, then, to make matters worse, you go to tension the luff and ask those slugs to now try to slide in the track with all that tension on them. If, though, you tension the luff good and tight prior to hauling the aft reef point in, the tension created on the luff by the rearward pull of the aft reef is not point loaded just on the little plastic slugs. I have seen a sloppily reefed main completely "unzip" from the mast when the point loaded plastic slugs just
gave up and broke one after another from head to foot. The guy had tensioned the aft reef point first and the luff was very loose and "scalloped" between the slugs, indicating that it was way too loose.
The method I use is to always have the topping lift attached to the boom. I then release and lower the halyard to a preset mark (sharpies work great for this) that I know gets the halyard loose enough to allow the forward reef point to get all the way down to the boom. Then, I haul in the forward reef line (or attach the reef cringle into the reef hook depending on which system you use). Now , I tighten the luff TIGHT. You want it tight so that 1. it spreads the load from the rear reef point all along the luff and not just onto the slugs. and 2. You are trying to de-power the sail. The last
thing you want is a deep draft in an aft position....by tightening the luff you move the position of draft forward and by having a tight rear reef point you will flatten the sail reducing the depth of the draft and assist in de-powering the main. If you put a sloppy reef in you are defeating the purpose, especially for going to weather. So, after I have the luff lowered, attached and tensioned, Now I haul in the rear reef point. The whole time I am working on the luff, the topping lift has been holding the boom. The rear reef point needs to be hauled both "back" and "down". In other words, the
line that is pulling the rear reef cringle down should be leaving the reef cringle and going to the reef block at a 45 degree angle so it gives both
directions of pull, out AND down (this is when the reef point is hauled into position at the boom ). If it is not at a 45 degree angle of pull, you will either have a loose foot or a loose leach...both detrimental to the performance of the reef. Only now should the mid sail reef points be secured and they are only secured loosely to control and gather up fabric. They are not re-enforced or designed to handle ANY loads. If you sail is loose footed you can gather just fabric and not go around the boom. If you have to go around the boom, you need to make absolutely sure that the nettles (the lines used to tie up the fabric) take absolutely no load or they will rip out with devastating results for your sail. Also, you must release the nettles first when shaking out the reef and make sure that your front and rear reef points are absolutely secured when the reef is tucked. If one of them releases while under load and the nettles are secured around the boom the mid sail reef points will most likely rip out.
Jo and I have been able to get to where we can tuck a good reef in under a
minute and it has made our sailing way more fun and much more relaxed. I have had boom kickers and rigid vangs and although they will "hold the boom up" they are not a solid "hold". In other words, if in the process of tucking the reef you need to haul downward on a line that is attached to the boom like an aft reef line, or if you lose you balance and try to use the boom
to regain it, ..the back of the boom will continue to drop down as you add force or weight to it. At least that was the case with the ones I used.
They are able to hold up the weight of the boom and a little more...but my
big a$$ stumbling over a goldendoodle and grabbing the boom for support would cause the boom to just drop down. It's just a personal preference, but for me an adjustable topping lift is much better.
Of course all the above is qualified by "IMHO" and as my friend Gary O always states: "your actual mileage may vary!" hehehe
ok..well, enough of me rattling on...waiting for the breeze to come up here in San Diego so we can get one more day of sailing in before heading back
to the land of powerboats!
Sean M23 "Dauntless" _www.havasumontgomerys.piczo.com_ ( http://www.havasumontgomerys.piczo.com)
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My topping lift is fixed at the top of the mast and runs down to the end of the boom through a cheek block and cleated off. Joe M17 Seafrog ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Wickett To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 9:13 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: topping lifts and reefing I am adding a topping lift in the next few weeks. Boat came without one when we bought it last year. Do most fix the topping lift at the boom end, and cleat it at the foot of the mast, or do you cleat it on the boom, possibly after a cheek block at boom end with it fixed at the mast head? If your topping lift leads back down the mast, how have you added a turning block at that mast head? Did you just lash or shackle a small swivel block to the pin that holds the main halyard sheave? Thanks, Bill Wickett M17 Makin' Time On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 8:59 PM, Thomas Howe <Thomas@thomashoweonline.com>wrote:
I use both a Topping lift and a strap swaged into the backstay. The strap is only for when the sail is down, for better stability of the boom, such as having a boom tent in place. Topping lift is slack when the sail is up fully, holds the boom up during reefing.
Thomas Howe Mailto:Thomas@TEHowe.com O --------(\ ---------- ~ (\ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Conbert H. Benneck Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:51 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: topping lifts and reefing
Nebwest2@aol.com wrote:
Hi Gang,
I too prefer a topping lift rather than hooking the boom to a strap attached to the backstay.
The topping lift allows the sail/boom to adjust to the wind gusts: a fixed point of attachment to the back stay give you no leeway if the boat's heading changes; or you get hit with a gust. You might as well have the main sheet cleated.
The fixed boom attachment point to the back stay is fine at anchor, and after the mainsail is furled; not as a means of holding the boom to put in a reef.
Connie
Neil,
I'm gonna make my case for the topping lift here and oddly enough, I find
myself opposite of what Harry Pattison was saying to do when he talked about reefing (and I have the utmost respect for Harry). However this is what works for us, how we do it ,and the rational that I put behind my actions. I am certainly not saying that this is THE way to do it, just a process that we use, have used for years, and works for us.
I am a big fan of my topping lift. It allows me to get the forward reef point at the luff secured prior to the hauling in the aft reef point. The reason I do this is so that I can get the luff tensioned properly before I put rearward tension on the sail slugs. If you tension the rear reef point first you put a great deal of tension on those individual slugs, then, to make matters worse, you go to tension the luff and ask those slugs to now try to slide in the track with all that tension on them. If, though, you tension the luff good and tight prior to hauling the aft reef point in, the tension created on the luff by the rearward pull of the aft reef is not point loaded just on the little plastic slugs. I have seen a sloppily reefed main completely "unzip" from the mast when the point loaded plastic slugs just
gave up and broke one after another from head to foot. The guy had tensioned the aft reef point first and the luff was very loose and "scalloped" between the slugs, indicating that it was way too loose.
The method I use is to always have the topping lift attached to the boom. I then release and lower the halyard to a preset mark (sharpies work great for this) that I know gets the halyard loose enough to allow the forward reef point to get all the way down to the boom. Then, I haul in the forward reef line (or attach the reef cringle into the reef hook depending on which system you use). Now , I tighten the luff TIGHT. You want it tight so that 1. it spreads the load from the rear reef point all along the luff and not just onto the slugs. and 2. You are trying to de-power the sail. The last
thing you want is a deep draft in an aft position....by tightening the luff you move the position of draft forward and by having a tight rear reef point you will flatten the sail reducing the depth of the draft and assist in de-powering the main. If you put a sloppy reef in you are defeating the purpose, especially for going to weather. So, after I have the luff lowered, attached and tensioned, Now I haul in the rear reef point. The whole time I am working on the luff, the topping lift has been holding the boom. The rear reef point needs to be hauled both "back" and "down". In other words, the
line that is pulling the rear reef cringle down should be leaving the reef cringle and going to the reef block at a 45 degree angle so it gives both
directions of pull, out AND down (this is when the reef point is hauled into position at the boom ). If it is not at a 45 degree angle of pull, you will either have a loose foot or a loose leach...both detrimental to the performance of the reef. Only now should the mid sail reef points be secured and they are only secured loosely to control and gather up fabric. They are not re-enforced or designed to handle ANY loads. If you sail is loose footed you can gather just fabric and not go around the boom. If you have to go around the boom, you need to make absolutely sure that the nettles (the lines used to tie up the fabric) take absolutely no load or they will rip out with devastating results for your sail. Also, you must release the nettles first when shaking out the reef and make sure that your front and rear reef points are absolutely secured when the reef is tucked. If one of them releases while under load and the nettles are secured around the boom the mid sail reef points will most likely rip out.
Jo and I have been able to get to where we can tuck a good reef in under a
minute and it has made our sailing way more fun and much more relaxed. I have had boom kickers and rigid vangs and although they will "hold the boom up" they are not a solid "hold". In other words, if in the process of tucking the reef you need to haul downward on a line that is attached to the boom like an aft reef line, or if you lose you balance and try to use the boom
to regain it, ..the back of the boom will continue to drop down as you add force or weight to it. At least that was the case with the ones I used.
They are able to hold up the weight of the boom and a little more...but my
big a$$ stumbling over a goldendoodle and grabbing the boom for support would cause the boom to just drop down. It's just a personal preference, but for me an adjustable topping lift is much better.
Of course all the above is qualified by "IMHO" and as my friend Gary O always states: "your actual mileage may vary!" hehehe
ok..well, enough of me rattling on...waiting for the breeze to come up here in San Diego so we can get one more day of sailing in before heading back
to the land of powerboats!
Sean M23 "Dauntless" _www.havasumontgomerys.piczo.com_ ( http://www.havasumontgomerys.piczo.com)
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
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Sean nailed it. The reefing process aboard "Spirit" is exactly the same. But M17s (at least the late model ones) need a lot of work to make this possible. Here are the modifications I made to Spirit: 1) A gooseneck stop is needed below the boom to keep it from sliding down and falling out (or jamming) at the bottom. Those little thumb screw slug-stops won't even slow the boom down so don't waste your money. I installed a permanent boom stop inside the luff groove. It allows the boom to drop just far enough so all the sail slides nestle below the mast gate when the sail is down. The stop was installed by drilling and tapping a short length of thick-walled 6061 aluminum tubing with four 10-24 machine screws. This is probably gross overkill - but that's how I roll. 2) You don't need reefing hardware at the clew because you can simply reeve a rope through the reefing cringle, wrap it around the boom, then lead it to the boom end right? Yeah sure. Good luck with with your sail shape using that technique. I needn't repeat Sean's analysis below. I installed an eye on one side of the boom and a cheek block on the other at each clew position to get the proper 45 degree angle. The clew reefing line then runs along the boom to a cleat. The cleat is positioned far enough forward on the boom so I can reach it from the cockpit regardless of the boom's position. 3) Securing the tack. There are many different ways to do this but none of them exist on a 2007 M17. I decided to install an eye on the port side of the mast with a thick line attached. When the time comes to reef, the line goes through the tack reefing cringle, then down to a cleat on the starboard side of the mast. This creates a 2:1 purchase on the tack and allows me to give Spirit a drum tight luff when the wind kicks up. 4) Without a mast gate the sail slides just fall out. This makes shaking out reefs and raising the sail a hassle. I made a mast gate out of "Starboard". Others have made gates out of scrap mast sections. As far as the "clew first" reefing technique... Over the years I've tried it on three of my own boats and have experienced the same problems that Sean describes. Better sailors than I have endorsed the "clew first" technique. I'd love to see what they're doing because it just doesn't work for me. In closing I'll say that, for cruisers, topping lifts are a good thing. I've tried the Boomkicker but, for my purposes, it was an ingenious solution to a non-existent problem. I don't mean to badmouth the product - it seems to be very well engineered and constructed - it just wasn't as versatile as a topping lift for my style of sailing. Jim M17 "Spirit" On Apr 24, 2010, at 9:12 AM, Nebwest2@aol.com wrote:
Neil,
I'm gonna make my case for the topping lift here and oddly enough, I find myself opposite of what Harry Pattison was saying to do when he talked about reefing (and I have the utmost respect for Harry). However this is what works for us, how we do it ,and the rational that I put behind my actions. I am certainly not saying that this is THE way to do it, just a process that we use, have used for years, and works for us.
I am a big fan of my topping lift. It allows me to get the forward reef point at the luff secured prior to the hauling in the aft reef point. The reason I do this is so that I can get the luff tensioned properly before I put rearward tension on the sail slugs. If you tension the rear reef point first you put a great deal of tension on those individual slugs, then, to make matters worse, you go to tension the luff and ask those slugs to now try to slide in the track with all that tension on them. If, though, you tension the luff good and tight prior to hauling the aft reef point in, the tension created on the luff by the rearward pull of the aft reef is not point loaded just on the little plastic slugs. I have seen a sloppily reefed main completely "unzip" from the mast when the point loaded plastic slugs just gave up and broke one after another from head to foot. The guy had tensioned the aft reef point first and the luff was very loose and "scalloped" between the slugs, indicating that it was way too loose.
The method I use is to always have the topping lift attached to the boom. I then release and lower the halyard to a preset mark (sharpies work great for this) that I know gets the halyard loose enough to allow the forward reef point to get all the way down to the boom. Then, I haul in the forward reef line (or attach the reef cringle into the reef hook depending on which system you use). Now , I tighten the luff TIGHT. You want it tight so that 1. it spreads the load from the rear reef point all along the luff and not just onto the slugs. and 2. You are trying to de-power the sail. The last thing you want is a deep draft in an aft position....by tightening the luff you move the position of draft forward and by having a tight rear reef point you will flatten the sail reducing the depth of the draft and assist in de-powering the main. If you put a sloppy reef in you are defeating the purpose, especially for going to weather. So, after I have the luff lowered, attached and tensioned, Now I haul in the rear reef point. The whole time I am working on the luff, the topping lift has been holding the boom. The rear reef point needs to be hauled both "back" and "down". In other words, the line that is pulling the rear reef cringle down should be leaving the reef cringle and going to the reef block at a 45 degree angle so it gives both directions of pull, out AND down (this is when the reef point is hauled into position at the boom ). If it is not at a 45 degree angle of pull, you will either have a loose foot or a loose leach...both detrimental to the performance of the reef. Only now should the mid sail reef points be secured and they are only secured loosely to control and gather up fabric. They are not re-enforced or designed to handle ANY loads. If you sail is loose footed you can gather just fabric and not go around the boom. If you have to go around the boom, you need to make absolutely sure that the nettles (the lines used to tie up the fabric) take absolutely no load or they will rip out with devastating results for your sail. Also, you must release the nettles first when shaking out the reef and make sure that your front and rear reef points are absolutely secured when the reef is tucked. If one of them releases while under load and the nettles are secured around the boom the mid sail reef points will most likely rip out.
Jo and I have been able to get to where we can tuck a good reef in under a minute and it has made our sailing way more fun and much more relaxed. I have had boom kickers and rigid vangs and although they will "hold the boom up" they are not a solid "hold". In other words, if in the process of tucking the reef you need to haul downward on a line that is attached to the boom like an aft reef line, or if you lose you balance and try to use the boom to regain it, ..the back of the boom will continue to drop down as you add force or weight to it. At least that was the case with the ones I used. They are able to hold up the weight of the boom and a little more...but my big a$$ stumbling over a goldendoodle and grabbing the boom for support would cause the boom to just drop down. It's just a personal preference, but for me an adjustable topping lift is much better.
Of course all the above is qualified by "IMHO" and as my friend Gary O always states: "your actual mileage may vary!" hehehe
ok..well, enough of me rattling on...waiting for the breeze to come up here in San Diego so we can get one more day of sailing in before heading back to the land of powerboats!
Sean M23 "Dauntless" _www.havasumontgomerys.piczo.com_ (http:// www.havasumontgomerys.piczo.com) _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Speak of the Devil... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uOwJQ_5X7M On Apr 24, 2010, at 9:51 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
Sean nailed it.
The reefing process aboard "Spirit" is exactly the same. But M17s (at least the late model ones) need a lot of work to make this possible. Here are the modifications I made to Spirit:
1) A gooseneck stop is needed below the boom to keep it from sliding down and falling out (or jamming) at the bottom. Those little thumb screw slug-stops won't even slow the boom down so don't waste your money. I installed a permanent boom stop inside the luff groove. It allows the boom to drop just far enough so all the sail slides nestle below the mast gate when the sail is down. The stop was installed by drilling and tapping a short length of thick-walled 6061 aluminum tubing with four 10-24 machine screws. This is probably gross overkill - but that's how I roll.
2) You don't need reefing hardware at the clew because you can simply reeve a rope through the reefing cringle, wrap it around the boom, then lead it to the boom end right? Yeah sure. Good luck with with your sail shape using that technique. I needn't repeat Sean's analysis below. I installed an eye on one side of the boom and a cheek block on the other at each clew position to get the proper 45 degree angle. The clew reefing line then runs along the boom to a cleat. The cleat is positioned far enough forward on the boom so I can reach it from the cockpit regardless of the boom's position.
3) Securing the tack. There are many different ways to do this but none of them exist on a 2007 M17. I decided to install an eye on the port side of the mast with a thick line attached. When the time comes to reef, the line goes through the tack reefing cringle, then down to a cleat on the starboard side of the mast. This creates a 2:1 purchase on the tack and allows me to give Spirit a drum tight luff when the wind kicks up.
4) Without a mast gate the sail slides just fall out. This makes shaking out reefs and raising the sail a hassle. I made a mast gate out of "Starboard". Others have made gates out of scrap mast sections.
As far as the "clew first" reefing technique... Over the years I've tried it on three of my own boats and have experienced the same problems that Sean describes. Better sailors than I have endorsed the "clew first" technique. I'd love to see what they're doing because it just doesn't work for me.
In closing I'll say that, for cruisers, topping lifts are a good thing. I've tried the Boomkicker but, for my purposes, it was an ingenious solution to a non-existent problem. I don't mean to badmouth the product - it seems to be very well engineered and constructed - it just wasn't as versatile as a topping lift for my style of sailing.
Jim M17 "Spirit"
On Apr 24, 2010, at 9:12 AM, Nebwest2@aol.com wrote:
Neil,
I'm gonna make my case for the topping lift here and oddly enough, I find myself opposite of what Harry Pattison was saying to do when he talked about reefing (and I have the utmost respect for Harry). However this is what works for us, how we do it ,and the rational that I put behind my actions. I am certainly not saying that this is THE way to do it, just a process that we use, have used for years, and works for us.
I am a big fan of my topping lift. It allows me to get the forward reef point at the luff secured prior to the hauling in the aft reef point. The reason I do this is so that I can get the luff tensioned properly before I put rearward tension on the sail slugs. If you tension the rear reef point first you put a great deal of tension on those individual slugs, then, to make matters worse, you go to tension the luff and ask those slugs to now try to slide in the track with all that tension on them. If, though, you tension the luff good and tight prior to hauling the aft reef point in, the tension created on the luff by the rearward pull of the aft reef is not point loaded just on the little plastic slugs. I have seen a sloppily reefed main completely "unzip" from the mast when the point loaded plastic slugs just gave up and broke one after another from head to foot. The guy had tensioned the aft reef point first and the luff was very loose and "scalloped" between the slugs, indicating that it was way too loose.
The method I use is to always have the topping lift attached to the boom. I then release and lower the halyard to a preset mark (sharpies work great for this) that I know gets the halyard loose enough to allow the forward reef point to get all the way down to the boom. Then, I haul in the forward reef line (or attach the reef cringle into the reef hook depending on which system you use). Now , I tighten the luff TIGHT. You want it tight so that 1. it spreads the load from the rear reef point all along the luff and not just onto the slugs. and 2. You are trying to de-power the sail. The last thing you want is a deep draft in an aft position....by tightening the luff you move the position of draft forward and by having a tight rear reef point you will flatten the sail reducing the depth of the draft and assist in de-powering the main. If you put a sloppy reef in you are defeating the purpose, especially for going to weather. So, after I have the luff lowered, attached and tensioned, Now I haul in the rear reef point. The whole time I am working on the luff, the topping lift has been holding the boom. The rear reef point needs to be hauled both "back" and "down". In other words, the line that is pulling the rear reef cringle down should be leaving the reef cringle and going to the reef block at a 45 degree angle so it gives both directions of pull, out AND down (this is when the reef point is hauled into position at the boom ). If it is not at a 45 degree angle of pull, you will either have a loose foot or a loose leach...both detrimental to the performance of the reef. Only now should the mid sail reef points be secured and they are only secured loosely to control and gather up fabric. They are not re-enforced or designed to handle ANY loads. If you sail is loose footed you can gather just fabric and not go around the boom. If you have to go around the boom, you need to make absolutely sure that the nettles (the lines used to tie up the fabric) take absolutely no load or they will rip out with devastating results for your sail. Also, you must release the nettles first when shaking out the reef and make sure that your front and rear reef points are absolutely secured when the reef is tucked. If one of them releases while under load and the nettles are secured around the boom the mid sail reef points will most likely rip out.
Jo and I have been able to get to where we can tuck a good reef in under a minute and it has made our sailing way more fun and much more relaxed. I have had boom kickers and rigid vangs and although they will "hold the boom up" they are not a solid "hold". In other words, if in the process of tucking the reef you need to haul downward on a line that is attached to the boom like an aft reef line, or if you lose you balance and try to use the boom to regain it, ..the back of the boom will continue to drop down as you add force or weight to it. At least that was the case with the ones I used. They are able to hold up the weight of the boom and a little more...but my big a$$ stumbling over a goldendoodle and grabbing the boom for support would cause the boom to just drop down. It's just a personal preference, but for me an adjustable topping lift is much better.
Of course all the above is qualified by "IMHO" and as my friend Gary O always states: "your actual mileage may vary!" hehehe
ok..well, enough of me rattling on...waiting for the breeze to come up here in San Diego so we can get one more day of sailing in before heading back to the land of powerboats!
Sean M23 "Dauntless" _www.havasumontgomerys.piczo.com_ (http:// www.havasumontgomerys.piczo.com) _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
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That site lead to another ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbXlEsrlo1s&NR=1 This hits home the discussion on having the 45 degree pull on the clew. This has been a very worthwhile discussion for me. I'll be double checking my reefing set up in the morning. Thanks to all for their input. Joe M17 Seafrog ----- Original Message ----- From: James Poulakis To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 2:24 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: topping lifts and reefing Speak of the Devil... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uOwJQ_5X7M On Apr 24, 2010, at 9:51 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
Sean nailed it.
The reefing process aboard "Spirit" is exactly the same. But M17s (at least the late model ones) need a lot of work to make this possible. Here are the modifications I made to Spirit:
1) A gooseneck stop is needed below the boom to keep it from sliding down and falling out (or jamming) at the bottom. Those little thumb screw slug-stops won't even slow the boom down so don't waste your money. I installed a permanent boom stop inside the luff groove. It allows the boom to drop just far enough so all the sail slides nestle below the mast gate when the sail is down. The stop was installed by drilling and tapping a short length of thick-walled 6061 aluminum tubing with four 10-24 machine screws. This is probably gross overkill - but that's how I roll.
2) You don't need reefing hardware at the clew because you can simply reeve a rope through the reefing cringle, wrap it around the boom, then lead it to the boom end right? Yeah sure. Good luck with with your sail shape using that technique. I needn't repeat Sean's analysis below. I installed an eye on one side of the boom and a cheek block on the other at each clew position to get the proper 45 degree angle. The clew reefing line then runs along the boom to a cleat. The cleat is positioned far enough forward on the boom so I can reach it from the cockpit regardless of the boom's position.
3) Securing the tack. There are many different ways to do this but none of them exist on a 2007 M17. I decided to install an eye on the port side of the mast with a thick line attached. When the time comes to reef, the line goes through the tack reefing cringle, then down to a cleat on the starboard side of the mast. This creates a 2:1 purchase on the tack and allows me to give Spirit a drum tight luff when the wind kicks up.
4) Without a mast gate the sail slides just fall out. This makes shaking out reefs and raising the sail a hassle. I made a mast gate out of "Starboard". Others have made gates out of scrap mast sections.
As far as the "clew first" reefing technique... Over the years I've tried it on three of my own boats and have experienced the same problems that Sean describes. Better sailors than I have endorsed the "clew first" technique. I'd love to see what they're doing because it just doesn't work for me.
In closing I'll say that, for cruisers, topping lifts are a good thing. I've tried the Boomkicker but, for my purposes, it was an ingenious solution to a non-existent problem. I don't mean to badmouth the product - it seems to be very well engineered and constructed - it just wasn't as versatile as a topping lift for my style of sailing.
Jim M17 "Spirit"
On Apr 24, 2010, at 9:12 AM, Nebwest2@aol.com wrote:
Neil,
I'm gonna make my case for the topping lift here and oddly enough, I find myself opposite of what Harry Pattison was saying to do when he talked about reefing (and I have the utmost respect for Harry). However this is what works for us, how we do it ,and the rational that I put behind my actions. I am certainly not saying that this is THE way to do it, just a process that we use, have used for years, and works for us.
I am a big fan of my topping lift. It allows me to get the forward reef point at the luff secured prior to the hauling in the aft reef point. The reason I do this is so that I can get the luff tensioned properly before I put rearward tension on the sail slugs. If you tension the rear reef point first you put a great deal of tension on those individual slugs, then, to make matters worse, you go to tension the luff and ask those slugs to now try to slide in the track with all that tension on them. If, though, you tension the luff good and tight prior to hauling the aft reef point in, the tension created on the luff by the rearward pull of the aft reef is not point loaded just on the little plastic slugs. I have seen a sloppily reefed main completely "unzip" from the mast when the point loaded plastic slugs just gave up and broke one after another from head to foot. The guy had tensioned the aft reef point first and the luff was very loose and "scalloped" between the slugs, indicating that it was way too loose.
The method I use is to always have the topping lift attached to the boom. I then release and lower the halyard to a preset mark (sharpies work great for this) that I know gets the halyard loose enough to allow the forward reef point to get all the way down to the boom. Then, I haul in the forward reef line (or attach the reef cringle into the reef hook depending on which system you use). Now , I tighten the luff TIGHT. You want it tight so that 1. it spreads the load from the rear reef point all along the luff and not just onto the slugs. and 2. You are trying to de-power the sail. The last thing you want is a deep draft in an aft position....by tightening the luff you move the position of draft forward and by having a tight rear reef point you will flatten the sail reducing the depth of the draft and assist in de-powering the main. If you put a sloppy reef in you are defeating the purpose, especially for going to weather. So, after I have the luff lowered, attached and tensioned, Now I haul in the rear reef point. The whole time I am working on the luff, the topping lift has been holding the boom. The rear reef point needs to be hauled both "back" and "down". In other words, the line that is pulling the rear reef cringle down should be leaving the reef cringle and going to the reef block at a 45 degree angle so it gives both directions of pull, out AND down (this is when the reef point is hauled into position at the boom ). If it is not at a 45 degree angle of pull, you will either have a loose foot or a loose leach...both detrimental to the performance of the reef. Only now should the mid sail reef points be secured and they are only secured loosely to control and gather up fabric. They are not re-enforced or designed to handle ANY loads. If you sail is loose footed you can gather just fabric and not go around the boom. If you have to go around the boom, you need to make absolutely sure that the nettles (the lines used to tie up the fabric) take absolutely no load or they will rip out with devastating results for your sail. Also, you must release the nettles first when shaking out the reef and make sure that your front and rear reef points are absolutely secured when the reef is tucked. If one of them releases while under load and the nettles are secured around the boom the mid sail reef points will most likely rip out.
Jo and I have been able to get to where we can tuck a good reef in under a minute and it has made our sailing way more fun and much more relaxed. I have had boom kickers and rigid vangs and although they will "hold the boom up" they are not a solid "hold". In other words, if in the process of tucking the reef you need to haul downward on a line that is attached to the boom like an aft reef line, or if you lose you balance and try to use the boom to regain it, ..the back of the boom will continue to drop down as you add force or weight to it. At least that was the case with the ones I used. They are able to hold up the weight of the boom and a little more...but my big a$$ stumbling over a goldendoodle and grabbing the boom for support would cause the boom to just drop down. It's just a personal preference, but for me an adjustable topping lift is much better.
Of course all the above is qualified by "IMHO" and as my friend Gary O always states: "your actual mileage may vary!" hehehe
ok..well, enough of me rattling on...waiting for the breeze to come up here in San Diego so we can get one more day of sailing in before heading back to the land of powerboats!
Sean M23 "Dauntless" _www.havasumontgomerys.piczo.com_ (http:// www.havasumontgomerys.piczo.com) _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Here I go again with my rigging opinions: If you use this Tie-One-End-Around-The-Boom-And-Lead-The-Other-To-The- Boom-End method you'll end up with a horrible sail shape unless: 1) you use a winch to tighten the clew reefing line, and 2) you tie in the "safety line". Now think about the conditions under which you'll be tying in the "safety line". The wind's howling. The boat's rocking. To bring the clew in close enough to reach you're pointing nearly head to wind. You're standing with one foot on a wet cockpit seat, and reaching out to thread a line through a small hole while an 8' aluminum baseball bat thrashes around in front of your face. Nice "safety line" huh? Gee, I wonder if the Pardeys use this set-up? Unfortunately this reefing system seems to be de rigueur for production boats nowadays. I used it for over a decade of offshore sailing on my Sabre 30. Ahhh, I was younger then... Jim M17 "Spirit" On Apr 25, 2010, at 7:56 AM, Joe Murphy wrote:
That site lead to another ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbXlEsrlo1s&NR=1 This hits home the discussion on having the 45 degree pull on the clew. This has been a very worthwhile discussion for me. I'll be double checking my reefing set up in the morning. Thanks to all for their input. Joe M17 Seafrog
----- Original Message ----- From: James Poulakis To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 2:24 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: topping lifts and reefing
Speak of the Devil...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uOwJQ_5X7M
On Apr 24, 2010, at 9:51 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
Sean nailed it.
The reefing process aboard "Spirit" is exactly the same. But M17s (at least the late model ones) need a lot of work to make this possible. Here are the modifications I made to Spirit:
1) A gooseneck stop is needed below the boom to keep it from sliding down and falling out (or jamming) at the bottom. Those little thumb screw slug-stops won't even slow the boom down so don't waste your money. I installed a permanent boom stop inside the luff groove. It allows the boom to drop just far enough so all the sail slides nestle below the mast gate when the sail is down. The stop was installed by drilling and tapping a short length of thick-walled 6061 aluminum tubing with four 10-24 machine screws. This is probably gross overkill - but that's how I roll.
2) You don't need reefing hardware at the clew because you can simply reeve a rope through the reefing cringle, wrap it around the boom, then lead it to the boom end right? Yeah sure. Good luck with with your sail shape using that technique. I needn't repeat Sean's analysis below. I installed an eye on one side of the boom and a cheek block on the other at each clew position to get the proper 45 degree angle. The clew reefing line then runs along the boom to a cleat. The cleat is positioned far enough forward on the boom so I can reach it from the cockpit regardless of the boom's position.
3) Securing the tack. There are many different ways to do this but none of them exist on a 2007 M17. I decided to install an eye on the port side of the mast with a thick line attached. When the time comes to reef, the line goes through the tack reefing cringle, then down to a cleat on the starboard side of the mast. This creates a 2:1 purchase on the tack and allows me to give Spirit a drum tight luff when the wind kicks up.
4) Without a mast gate the sail slides just fall out. This makes shaking out reefs and raising the sail a hassle. I made a mast gate out of "Starboard". Others have made gates out of scrap mast sections.
As far as the "clew first" reefing technique... Over the years I've tried it on three of my own boats and have experienced the same problems that Sean describes. Better sailors than I have endorsed the "clew first" technique. I'd love to see what they're doing because it just doesn't work for me.
In closing I'll say that, for cruisers, topping lifts are a good thing. I've tried the Boomkicker but, for my purposes, it was an ingenious solution to a non-existent problem. I don't mean to badmouth the product - it seems to be very well engineered and constructed - it just wasn't as versatile as a topping lift for my style of sailing.
Jim M17 "Spirit"
On Apr 24, 2010, at 9:12 AM, Nebwest2@aol.com wrote:
Neil,
I'm gonna make my case for the topping lift here and oddly enough, I find myself opposite of what Harry Pattison was saying to do when he talked about reefing (and I have the utmost respect for Harry). However this is what works for us, how we do it ,and the rational that I put behind my actions. I am certainly not saying that this is THE way to do it, just a process that we use, have used for years, and works for us.
I am a big fan of my topping lift. It allows me to get the forward reef point at the luff secured prior to the hauling in the aft reef point. The reason I do this is so that I can get the luff tensioned properly before I put rearward tension on the sail slugs. If you tension the rear reef point first you put a great deal of tension on those individual slugs, then, to make matters worse, you go to tension the luff and ask those slugs to now try to slide in the track with all that tension on them. If, though, you tension the luff good and tight prior to hauling the aft reef point in, the tension created on the luff by the rearward pull of the aft reef is not point loaded just on the little plastic slugs. I have seen a sloppily reefed main completely "unzip" from the mast when the point loaded plastic slugs just gave up and broke one after another from head to foot. The guy had tensioned the aft reef point first and the luff was very loose and "scalloped" between the slugs, indicating that it was way too loose.
The method I use is to always have the topping lift attached to the boom. I then release and lower the halyard to a preset mark (sharpies work great for this) that I know gets the halyard loose enough to allow the forward reef point to get all the way down to the boom. Then, I haul in the forward reef line (or attach the reef cringle into the reef hook depending on which system you use). Now , I tighten the luff TIGHT. You want it tight so that 1. it spreads the load from the rear reef point all along the luff and not just onto the slugs. and 2. You are trying to de-power the sail. The last thing you want is a deep draft in an aft position....by tightening the luff you move the position of draft forward and by having a tight rear reef point you will flatten the sail reducing the depth of the draft and assist in de-powering the main. If you put a sloppy reef in you are defeating the purpose, especially for going to weather. So, after I have the luff lowered, attached and tensioned, Now I haul in the rear reef point. The whole time I am working on the luff, the topping lift has been holding the boom. The rear reef point needs to be hauled both "back" and "down". In other words, the line that is pulling the rear reef cringle down should be leaving the reef cringle and going to the reef block at a 45 degree angle so it gives both directions of pull, out AND down (this is when the reef point is hauled into position at the boom ). If it is not at a 45 degree angle of pull, you will either have a loose foot or a loose leach...both detrimental to the performance of the reef. Only now should the mid sail reef points be secured and they are only secured loosely to control and gather up fabric. They are not re-enforced or designed to handle ANY loads. If you sail is loose footed you can gather just fabric and not go around the boom. If you have to go around the boom, you need to make absolutely sure that the nettles (the lines used to tie up the fabric) take absolutely no load or they will rip out with devastating results for your sail. Also, you must release the nettles first when shaking out the reef and make sure that your front and rear reef points are absolutely secured when the reef is tucked. If one of them releases while under load and the nettles are secured around the boom the mid sail reef points will most likely rip out.
Jo and I have been able to get to where we can tuck a good reef in under a minute and it has made our sailing way more fun and much more relaxed. I have had boom kickers and rigid vangs and although they will "hold the boom up" they are not a solid "hold". In other words, if in the process of tucking the reef you need to haul downward on a line that is attached to the boom like an aft reef line, or if you lose you balance and try to use the boom to regain it, ..the back of the boom will continue to drop down as you add force or weight to it. At least that was the case with the ones I used. They are able to hold up the weight of the boom and a little more...but my big a$$ stumbling over a goldendoodle and grabbing the boom for support would cause the boom to just drop down. It's just a personal preference, but for me an adjustable topping lift is much better.
Of course all the above is qualified by "IMHO" and as my friend Gary O always states: "your actual mileage may vary!" hehehe
ok..well, enough of me rattling on...waiting for the breeze to come up here in San Diego so we can get one more day of sailing in before heading back to the land of powerboats!
Sean M23 "Dauntless" _www.havasumontgomerys.piczo.com_ (http:// www.havasumontgomerys.piczo.com) _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
participants (7)
-
Bill Wickett -
Conbert H. Benneck -
htmills＠zoominternet.net -
James Poulakis -
Joe Murphy -
Nebwest2＠aol.com -
Thomas Howe