Hello Wrinkleboat lovers! What's you're favorite material for re-bedding deck hardware? I've used some sort of caulk-like stuff -- can't remember what -- in the past. It was goo in a tube. I've seen butyl tape recommended, but never used it. Do you have experience with butyl tape? Does it hold up? Are there other bedding materials I should look at? It'd be great if I could re-bed and then immediately go sail. Thanks, Charlie -- Charlie Fortner M-15 #411 Earth, USA, GA, Atlanta
I second the request, about to lift and re-bed Hardware. Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 13, 2021, at 3:32 PM, Charlie Fortner <charlie@rentrof.net> wrote:
Hello Wrinkleboat lovers!
What's you're favorite material for re-bedding deck hardware? I've used some sort of caulk-like stuff -- can't remember what -- in the past. It was goo in a tube.
I've seen butyl tape recommended, but never used it. Do you have experience with butyl tape? Does it hold up?
Are there other bedding materials I should look at? It'd be great if I could re-bed and then immediately go sail.
Thanks,
Charlie -- Charlie Fortner M-15 #411 Earth, USA, GA, Atlanta
Charlie: I prefer Sikaflex 291 or 3M4000/4200. I've used butyl tape in rare circumstances when the hardware being bedded is chemically incompatible with Sikaflex or 3M. I currently have one item bedded with butyl - a Spinlock rope clutch that will be damaged by 3M or Sikaflex. The butyl keeps the water out ... BUT ... the problem with the product is it slowly weeps a sticky oily slick that attracts dirt. Why I don't like the product. Yes it is easy to use and keeps the water out but is constantly making a mess. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 3:32 PM Charlie Fortner <charlie@rentrof.net> wrote:
Hello Wrinkleboat lovers!
What's you're favorite material for re-bedding deck hardware? I've used some sort of caulk-like stuff -- can't remember what -- in the past. It was goo in a tube.
I've seen butyl tape recommended, but never used it. Do you have experience with butyl tape? Does it hold up?
Are there other bedding materials I should look at? It'd be great if I could re-bed and then immediately go sail.
Thanks,
Charlie -- Charlie Fortner M-15 #411 Earth, USA, GA, Atlanta
On Sun, Jun 13, 2021, at 19:06, Dave Scobie wrote:
I've used butyl tape in rare circumstances when the hardware being bedded is chemically incompatible with Sikaflex or 3M.
Dave - you're a font of wrinkleboat knowledge. Thanks so much! Is there a way to know the chemical compatibility? Are there particular plastics that are definitely incompatible? Most of the hardware I'll be over-drilling / epoxying / re-drilling / re-bedding is some sort of plastic. Most of it is original to my 1988 M-15, but a I have a couple of more recent Harken cam cleats. Charlie
Interesting regarding the butyl tape. I am a big fan actually. I bedded all the hardware on my SCAMP with it. So easy to use and remove when required. Like nothing to it. I have not had that oozing problem. Daniel
On Jun 13, 2021, at 4:41 PM, Charlie Fortner <charlie@rentrof.net> wrote:
On Sun, Jun 13, 2021, at 19:06, Dave Scobie wrote:
I've used butyl tape in rare circumstances when the hardware being bedded is chemically incompatible with Sikaflex or 3M.
Dave - you're a font of wrinkleboat knowledge. Thanks so much!
Is there a way to know the chemical compatibility? Are there particular plastics that are definitely incompatible?
Most of the hardware I'll be over-drilling / epoxying / re-drilling / re-bedding is some sort of plastic. Most of it is original to my 1988 M-15, but a I have a couple of more recent Harken cam cleats.
Charlie
Charlie. For the hardware currently present I'd assume it will be fine with 3M and/or Sikaflex products ... as they haven't fallen off the boat or stopped working due to melting. If you buy something new just review the installation guide as it will note any incompatible bedding compound(s) - the manual for the Spinlock cleat was very clear on what could and couldn't be used. (Note: in this modern age sometimes you need to go online to collect the manual - what I needed to do for the Spinlock rope clutch.) I've used Sikaflex and 3M for Harken camcleats, winches and blocks with no problems. Please don't use silicone nor 3M5200 on the boat. (On a Montgomery/Sage there is ONE exception to the silicone rule.) :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 4:41 PM Charlie Fortner <charlie@rentrof.net> wrote:
On Sun, Jun 13, 2021, at 19:06, Dave Scobie wrote:
I've used butyl tape in rare circumstances when the hardware being bedded is chemically incompatible with Sikaflex or 3M.
Dave - you're a font of wrinkleboat knowledge. Thanks so much!
Is there a way to know the chemical compatibility? Are there particular plastics that are definitely incompatible?
Most of the hardware I'll be over-drilling / epoxying / re-drilling / re-bedding is some sort of plastic. Most of it is original to my 1988 M-15, but a I have a couple of more recent Harken cam cleats.
Charlie
On Sun, Jun 13, 2021, at 21:08, Dave Scobie wrote:
Please don't use silicone nor 3M5200 on the boat. (On a Montgomery/Sage there is ONE exception to the silicone rule.)
No worries about me using silicone. I hate the stuff, both on the boat and in the house. And I've read enough about 5200 to be wary of it. For posterity and my curiosity, what's the one Monty/Sage silicon exception? Charlie
Silicon is very bad advice. The only exception for me is the windows. I prefer BoatLife Caulk, 3M4200, etc. never 5200. Bob Sent from my iPad
On Jun 14, 2021, at 12:02 PM, Charlie Fortner <charlie@rentrof.net> wrote:
On Sun, Jun 13, 2021, at 21:08, Dave Scobie wrote:
Please don't use silicone nor 3M5200 on the boat. (On a Montgomery/Sage there is ONE exception to the silicone rule.)
No worries about me using silicone. I hate the stuff, both on the boat and in the house. And I've read enough about 5200 to be wary of it.
For posterity and my curiosity, what's the one Monty/Sage silicon exception?
Charlie
Important to know the diff between 3M 4200 and 5200, if you choose to use them. This has it in a nutshell: https://sailanything.com/post/48445963210/4200-or-5200-what-should-you-use Internet search on 3M 4200 vs 5200 will get you that and a bunch more info. And, for everything above waterline, I would use (have used) butyl tape, myself. I've helped people mess with 3M 4200 and it is just dastardly to work with. Also, 4200 it is "removable," but not as easily removable as butyl tape. cheers, John On 6/14/21 12:08 PM, Bob Eeg wrote:
Silicon is very bad advice. The only exception for me is the windows. I prefer BoatLife Caulk, 3M4200, etc. never 5200. Bob
Sent from my iPad
On Jun 14, 2021, at 12:02 PM, Charlie Fortner <charlie@rentrof.net> wrote:
On Sun, Jun 13, 2021, at 21:08, Dave Scobie wrote:
Please don't use silicone nor 3M5200 on the boat. (On a Montgomery/Sage there is ONE exception to the silicone rule.)
No worries about me using silicone. I hate the stuff, both on the boat and in the house. And I've read enough about 5200 to be wary of it.
For posterity and my curiosity, what's the one Monty/Sage silicon exception?
Charlie
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Charlie (and others following along) The Montgomery/Sages with the Lexan trapezoidal windows (not those with custom portlights or the old fist gen M17s with aluminum framed windows) use silicone. This is because Lexan will be damaged by bedding compound. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 12:02 PM Charlie Fortner <charlie@rentrof.net> wrote:
On Sun, Jun 13, 2021, at 21:08, Dave Scobie wrote:
Please don't use silicone nor 3M5200 on the boat. (On a Montgomery/Sage there is ONE exception to the silicone rule.)
No worries about me using silicone. I hate the stuff, both on the boat and in the house. And I've read enough about 5200 to be wary of it.
For posterity and my curiosity, what's the one Monty/Sage silicon exception?
Charlie
I second, or third, or wherever we're at, the butyl tape. The 3M products are also known as "Satan's glue" - for good reason. They have their uses, but for bedding most of what's above waterline on an M17 or M15 or most other boats I've messed with I'd use butyl tape. I've re-bedded pretty much everything on my M17 with it in the last few years, and used it for all added hardware. Some of my boat's original hardware had no original bedding, which I found interesting. And some had been (re-)done by some previous owner with silicone, oh what a PITA to undo! The butyl tape will in some applications continue to squeeze out excess over time, which is probably what the other post is referring to. I have had a bit of that. It's easy to just trim off, if you tighten or re-tighten something and notice that squeezing out, which will attract dust & grit if you leave it there. Also if you have bedded stuff with butyl in the spring, or the previous fall, and then your boat is out in sun and hot weather in the summer, the additional expansion from additional heat of some parts & pieces may squeeze out a bit more butyl than in the days after you originally installed it. I have had some of that too, I just trim or scrape away the extra butyl. cheers, John On 6/13/21 3:31 PM, Charlie Fortner wrote:
Hello Wrinkleboat lovers!
What's you're favorite material for re-bedding deck hardware? I've used some sort of caulk-like stuff -- can't remember what -- in the past. It was goo in a tube.
I've seen butyl tape recommended, but never used it. Do you have experience with butyl tape? Does it hold up?
Are there other bedding materials I should look at? It'd be great if I could re-bed and then immediately go sail.
Thanks,
Charlie
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Useful article on “Marine How To” site advocating Butyl tape. Especially useful technique of using a cone bevel to increase available sealant directly under fastener. Thanks for all input. Improper sealing obviously can lead to core rot, a mess, if not a boat killer , if neglected. Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 13, 2021, at 11:31 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I second, or third, or wherever we're at, the butyl tape.
The 3M products are also known as "Satan's glue" - for good reason. They have their uses, but for bedding most of what's above waterline on an M17 or M15 or most other boats I've messed with I'd use butyl tape.
I've re-bedded pretty much everything on my M17 with it in the last few years, and used it for all added hardware. Some of my boat's original hardware had no original bedding, which I found interesting. And some had been (re-)done by some previous owner with silicone, oh what a PITA to undo!
The butyl tape will in some applications continue to squeeze out excess over time, which is probably what the other post is referring to. I have had a bit of that. It's easy to just trim off, if you tighten or re-tighten something and notice that squeezing out, which will attract dust & grit if you leave it there.
Also if you have bedded stuff with butyl in the spring, or the previous fall, and then your boat is out in sun and hot weather in the summer, the additional expansion from additional heat of some parts & pieces may squeeze out a bit more butyl than in the days after you originally installed it. I have had some of that too, I just trim or scrape away the extra butyl.
cheers, John
On 6/13/21 3:31 PM, Charlie Fortner wrote: Hello Wrinkleboat lovers! What's you're favorite material for re-bedding deck hardware? I've used some sort of caulk-like stuff -- can't remember what -- in the past. It was goo in a tube. I've seen butyl tape recommended, but never used it. Do you have experience with butyl tape? Does it hold up? Are there other bedding materials I should look at? It'd be great if I could re-bed and then immediately go sail. Thanks, Charlie
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Edward and others following along: Yes it is neglect that kills these boats. The balsa cored deck and transom are not a problem if one rebeds hardware when signs of leaking appear: rust weeping out from under deck fittings, rusty nuts and washers inside the cabin and the obvious dripping water. The lack of a headliner means removing hardware isn't to challenging (non-removable headliners are carpet glued to the inside of boats is just bad design IMO). :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Mon, Jun 14, 2021, 8:54 AM Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
Useful article on “Marine How To” site advocating Butyl tape. Especially useful technique of using a cone bevel to increase available sealant directly under fastener. Thanks for all input. Improper sealing obviously can lead to core rot, a mess, if not a boat killer , if neglected.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 13, 2021, at 11:31 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I second, or third, or wherever we're at, the butyl tape.
The 3M products are also known as "Satan's glue" - for good reason. They have their uses, but for bedding most of what's above waterline on an M17 or M15 or most other boats I've messed with I'd use butyl tape.
I've re-bedded pretty much everything on my M17 with it in the last few years, and used it for all added hardware. Some of my boat's original hardware had no original bedding, which I found interesting. And some had been (re-)done by some previous owner with silicone, oh what a PITA to undo!
The butyl tape will in some applications continue to squeeze out excess over time, which is probably what the other post is referring to. I have had a bit of that. It's easy to just trim off, if you tighten or re-tighten something and notice that squeezing out, which will attract dust & grit if you leave it there.
Also if you have bedded stuff with butyl in the spring, or the previous fall, and then your boat is out in sun and hot weather in the summer, the additional expansion from additional heat of some parts & pieces may squeeze out a bit more butyl than in the days after you originally installed it. I have had some of that too, I just trim or scrape away the extra butyl.
cheers, John
On 6/13/21 3:31 PM, Charlie Fortner wrote: Hello Wrinkleboat lovers! What's you're favorite material for re-bedding deck hardware? I've used some sort of caulk-like stuff -- can't remember what -- in the past. It was goo in a tube. I've seen butyl tape recommended, but never used it. Do you have experience with butyl tape? Does it hold up? Are there other bedding materials I should look at? It'd be great if I could re-bed and then immediately go sail. Thanks, Charlie
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
participants (6)
-
Bob Eeg -
Charlie Fortner -
Daniel Rich -
Dave Scobie -
Edward Epifani -
John Schinnerer