Any guidance on tensioning shrouds? Mine were set at “that feels about right”. It took me a while to realize, when raising the mast, the shrouds are at maximum tension a few degrees from “up”, when the mast base hasn’t quite dropped down flat, and because of the funny angle, the pull was actually bending the bottom T bolts on the uppers. My shrouds I think are too short, and adjusted all the way out I can just barely get the mast up without overtensioning them. -- David Rifkind M17 #402 “Tycho Blue"
On Mar 28, 2016, at 8:55 AM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
Any guidance on tensioning shrouds? Mine were set at “that feels about right”. It took me a while to realize, when raising the mast, the shrouds are at maximum tension a few degrees from “up”, when the mast base hasn’t quite dropped down flat, and because of the funny angle, the pull was actually bending the bottom T bolts on the uppers.
My shrouds I think are too short, and adjusted all the way out I can just barely get the mast up without overtensioning them.
Message was supposed to include a link to this picture: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hotxq8ir861faj0/P3270007.jpg?dl=0
I'd caution against over-tensioning. I've been tensioning the past 3 or 4 seasons to about 12 on the Loos scale and the compression post has pushed into the fiberglass of the overhead. Before that for years I used the "snug but not tight" rule and had no difficulties. Rick M17 #633 Lynne L On Monday, March 28, 2016, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
On Mar 28, 2016, at 8:55 AM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org <javascript:;>> wrote:
Any guidance on tensioning shrouds? Mine were set at “that feels about right”. It took me a while to realize, when raising the mast, the shrouds are at maximum tension a few degrees from “up”, when the mast base hasn’t quite dropped down flat, and because of the funny angle, the pull was actually bending the bottom T bolts on the uppers.
My shrouds I think are too short, and adjusted all the way out I can just barely get the mast up without overtensioning them.
Message was supposed to include a link to this picture:
David: Round the foot of the mast so you can step it without loosening the shrouds. Strike a curve using the bolt hole a s a center and trim the aft part of th mast foot. G M Hyde Sent from my iPad
On Mar 28, 2016, at 7:55 AM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
On Mar 28, 2016, at 8:55 AM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
Any guidance on tensioning shrouds? Mine were set at “that feels about right”. It took me a while to realize, when raising the mast, the shrouds are at maximum tension a few degrees from “up”, when the mast base hasn’t quite dropped down flat, and because of the funny angle, the pull was actually bending the bottom T bolts on the uppers.
My shrouds I think are too short, and adjusted all the way out I can just barely get the mast up without overtensioning them.
Message was supposed to include a link to this picture:
That works, I did that on my mast also. You can get some twist shackles to put on your shrouds where they attach to the chain plates to add a couple of inch to the length. I ran a 1/4-20 bolt through each stock shackle to take up the slack. That prevented the "T" part from twisting when the shroud was slacked off. If that twist does not free itself when raising the mast again, you can get a bend in the "t" end of the shackle. The bolt keeps the "T" tucked into where it belongs.The length of the 1/4-20 bolt was just enough to reach through the strap holding the shackle (about 1") as well as long enough to accept a self locking 1/4 " nut. the nuts have to go away from the centerline between the two shrouds so they will not bind anything. You shouldn't have to loosen the shrouds to raise the mast after your round the aft edge of the mast like Gary suggested. <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=oa-2115-v2-b> Virus-free. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=oa-2115-v2-b> <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 1:20 PM, GARY M HYDE <gmhyde1@mac.com> wrote:
David: Round the foot of the mast so you can step it without loosening the shrouds. Strike a curve using the bolt hole a s a center and trim the aft part of th mast foot.
G M Hyde Sent from my iPad
On Mar 28, 2016, at 7:55 AM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
On Mar 28, 2016, at 8:55 AM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
Any guidance on tensioning shrouds? Mine were set at “that feels about right”. It took me a while to realize, when raising the mast, the shrouds are at maximum tension a few degrees from “up”, when the mast base hasn’t quite dropped down flat, and because of the funny angle, the pull was actually bending the bottom T bolts on the uppers.
My shrouds I think are too short, and adjusted all the way out I can just barely get the mast up without overtensioning them.
Message was supposed to include a link to this picture:
Since I'm not racing, I've got everything on the not sloppy loose but not tight side. . Makes life easier. Mast goes up easy and nothing flops around. 12 loosen turns on the rear stay to put up the mast, then 12 tighten seems to work great. Science! Jazzy On Mar 28, 2016 7:07 PM, "Thomas Buzzi" <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
That works, I did that on my mast also. You can get some twist shackles to put on your shrouds where they attach to the chain plates to add a couple of inch to the length. I ran a 1/4-20 bolt through each stock shackle to take up the slack. That prevented the "T" part from twisting when the shroud was slacked off. If that twist does not free itself when raising the mast again, you can get a bend in the "t" end of the shackle. The bolt keeps the "T" tucked into where it belongs.The length of the 1/4-20 bolt was just enough to reach through the strap holding the shackle (about 1") as well as long enough to accept a self locking 1/4 " nut. the nuts have to go away from the centerline between the two shrouds so they will not bind anything. You shouldn't have to loosen the shrouds to raise the mast after your round the aft edge of the mast like Gary suggested.
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On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 1:20 PM, GARY M HYDE <gmhyde1@mac.com> wrote:
David: Round the foot of the mast so you can step it without loosening the shrouds. Strike a curve using the bolt hole a s a center and trim the aft part of th mast foot.
G M Hyde Sent from my iPad
On Mar 28, 2016, at 7:55 AM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
On Mar 28, 2016, at 8:55 AM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
Any guidance on tensioning shrouds? Mine were set at “that feels about right”. It took me a while to realize, when raising the mast, the shrouds are at maximum tension a few degrees from “up”, when the mast base hasn’t quite dropped down flat, and because of the funny angle, the pull was actually bending the bottom T bolts on the uppers.
My shrouds I think are too short, and adjusted all the way out I can just barely get the mast up without overtensioning them.
Message was supposed to include a link to this picture:
I found that a back stay tensioner arrangement lets me put a little slop in the backstay of the mast rigging when I raise and lower the mast. Once it is up I just pull on the line and the four part tackle tightens the rig for sailing. Nice n easy Japanezee. Also lets me play around with yet more lines and tackles. When I was a boy of 13 I chanced to be standing on the deck of the Charles W. Morgan at Mystic Seaport, Mystic Connecticut. The last actual whaler was then fully rigged and as I stood by a taffrail festooned with three strand hemp lines wrapped just so around the belaying pins I grabbed one of the lines and tugged on it. Waaay up the mizzenmast a yard arm swung to and fro as I pulled on that line. Something about the connection between that line in my hand and that motion high above surprised me and the sense of it as stuck ever since. It was one of those "Kodak Moments" without the camera. "...and the seas beckon and would reclaim the saltwater in our veins when it can.." Fair winds Tom B <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=oa-2115-v2-b> Virus-free. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=oa-2115-v2-b> <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 9:27 PM, Jazzy <jazzydaze@gmail.com> wrote:
Since I'm not racing, I've got everything on the not sloppy loose but not tight side. . Makes life easier. Mast goes up easy and nothing flops around. 12 loosen turns on the rear stay to put up the mast, then 12 tighten seems to work great. Science!
Jazzy On Mar 28, 2016 7:07 PM, "Thomas Buzzi" <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
That works, I did that on my mast also. You can get some twist shackles to put on your shrouds where they attach to the chain plates to add a couple of inch to the length. I ran a 1/4-20 bolt through each stock shackle to take up the slack. That prevented the "T" part from twisting when the shroud was slacked off. If that twist does not free itself when raising the mast again, you can get a bend in the "t" end of the shackle. The bolt keeps the "T" tucked into where it belongs.The length of the 1/4-20 bolt was just enough to reach through the strap holding the shackle (about 1") as well as long enough to accept a self locking 1/4 " nut. the nuts have to go away from the centerline between the two shrouds so they will not bind anything. You shouldn't have to loosen the shrouds to raise the mast after your round the aft edge of the mast like Gary suggested.
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On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 1:20 PM, GARY M HYDE <gmhyde1@mac.com> wrote:
David: Round the foot of the mast so you can step it without loosening the shrouds. Strike a curve using the bolt hole a s a center and trim the aft part of th mast foot.
G M Hyde Sent from my iPad
On Mar 28, 2016, at 7:55 AM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
On Mar 28, 2016, at 8:55 AM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
Any guidance on tensioning shrouds? Mine were set at “that feels about right”. It took me a while to realize, when raising the mast, the shrouds are at maximum tension a few degrees from “up”, when the mast base hasn’t quite dropped down flat, and because of the funny angle, the pull was actually bending the bottom T bolts on the uppers.
My shrouds I think are too short, and adjusted all the way out I can just barely get the mast up without overtensioning them.
Message was supposed to include a link to this picture:
I agree with Gary's recommendation, and have done so myself years ago. Regarding shroud tension, I have followed the recommendations in a video "Tuning Your Rig" by Brion Toss, a well-regarded rigger from Port Townsend, WA. Based on his recommendations I have used the following settings on my M-17 for 10 years or so with great results, and no damage to the mast or rigging. Lower shroud (1/8") - 25 on the Loos Gauge Upper Shroud (1/8") - 32 Forestay (5/32") - 41 Backstay (1/8") - 32 The tensions are all in the range of 10-15% of breaking strength. The rigging is much tighter than I used to set it based on uneducated gut feel, but after many years of success I'm convinced that Brion Toss knows what he's talking about. Rich Makela M-17 #233 - Harmony -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of GARY M HYDE Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 1:21 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Shroud tension David: Round the foot of the mast so you can step it without loosening the shrouds. Strike a curve using the bolt hole a s a center and trim the aft part of th mast foot. G M Hyde Sent from my iPad
On Mar 28, 2016, at 7:55 AM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
On Mar 28, 2016, at 8:55 AM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
Any guidance on tensioning shrouds? Mine were set at “that feels about right”. It took me a while to realize, when raising the mast, the shrouds are at maximum tension a few degrees from “up”, when the mast base hasn’t quite dropped down flat, and because of the funny angle, the pull was actually bending the bottom T bolts on the uppers.
My shrouds I think are too short, and adjusted all the way out I can just barely get the mast up without overtensioning them.
Message was supposed to include a link to this picture:
Thanks, Rich, Maybe I ought to get a Loo tension guage. Tom B <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=oa-2115-v2-b> Virus-free. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=oa-2115-v2-b> <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 9:42 PM, Rich Makela <richmakela@comcast.net> wrote:
I agree with Gary's recommendation, and have done so myself years ago. Regarding shroud tension, I have followed the recommendations in a video "Tuning Your Rig" by Brion Toss, a well-regarded rigger from Port Townsend, WA. Based on his recommendations I have used the following settings on my M-17 for 10 years or so with great results, and no damage to the mast or rigging.
Lower shroud (1/8") - 25 on the Loos Gauge Upper Shroud (1/8") - 32 Forestay (5/32") - 41 Backstay (1/8") - 32
The tensions are all in the range of 10-15% of breaking strength. The rigging is much tighter than I used to set it based on uneducated gut feel, but after many years of success I'm convinced that Brion Toss knows what he's talking about.
Rich Makela M-17 #233 - Harmony -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of GARY M HYDE Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 1:21 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Shroud tension
David: Round the foot of the mast so you can step it without loosening the shrouds. Strike a curve using the bolt hole a s a center and trim the aft part of th mast foot.
G M Hyde Sent from my iPad
On Mar 28, 2016, at 7:55 AM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
On Mar 28, 2016, at 8:55 AM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
Any guidance on tensioning shrouds? Mine were set at “that feels about right”. It took me a while to realize, when raising the mast, the shrouds are at maximum tension a few degrees from “up”, when the mast base hasn’t quite dropped down flat, and because of the funny angle, the pull was actually bending the bottom T bolts on the uppers.
My shrouds I think are too short, and adjusted all the way out I can just barely get the mast up without overtensioning them.
Message was supposed to include a link to this picture:
On Mar 28, 2016, at 11:20 AM, GARY M HYDE <gmhyde1@mac.com> wrote:
Round the foot of the mast so you can step it without loosening the shrouds. Strike a curve using the bolt hole a s a center and trim the aft part of th mast foot.
That sounds like a plan. What kind of tool did you use? I am thinking angle grinder.
You don't have to take off that much. I ended up cutting back up the mast about a half inch on the sailtrack side and just tapered it to the max width of the mast. Then I eased the sharp aft end of the mast foot to avoid getting bitten by that sharp corner. Go slow, it easier to take off metal than put it back on. Tom B <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=oa-2115-v2-b> Virus-free. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=oa-2115-v2-b> <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 11:22 PM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
On Mar 28, 2016, at 11:20 AM, GARY M HYDE <gmhyde1@mac.com> wrote:
Round the foot of the mast so you can step it without loosening the shrouds. Strike a curve using the bolt hole a s a center and trim the aft part of th mast foot.
That sounds like a plan. What kind of tool did you use? I am thinking angle grinder.
A good way to do this is to use a Sawzall with a long (8"?) metal cutting blade to do most of the work, then a grinder, finishing up with a belt sander or DA. Be sure to wrap the end of the mast with masking tape to avoid the saw dinging it up. -----Original Message----- From: Thomas Buzzi Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 7:53 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Shroud tension You don't have to take off that much. I ended up cutting back up the mast about a half inch on the sailtrack side and just tapered it to the max width of the mast. Then I eased the sharp aft end of the mast foot to avoid getting bitten by that sharp corner. Go slow, it easier to take off metal than put it back on. Tom B <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=oa-2115-v2-b> Virus-free. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=oa-2115-v2-b> <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 11:22 PM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
On Mar 28, 2016, at 11:20 AM, GARY M HYDE <gmhyde1@mac.com> wrote:
Round the foot of the mast so you can step it without loosening the shrouds. Strike a curve using the bolt hole a s a center and trim the aft part of th mast foot.
That sounds like a plan. What kind of tool did you use? I am thinking angle grinder.
On Mar 29, 2016, at 7:53 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
You don't have to take off that much. I ended up cutting back up the mast about a half inch on the sailtrack side and just tapered it to the max width of the mast. Then I eased the sharp aft end of the mast foot to avoid getting bitten by that sharp corner.
The mast is not square as it is. The sail track end (I’d call it the heel) is already tapered, but not all the way to the center of the base. I should do some geometry and try to figure out how little I can cut off. My worry today is does this make raising the mast harder? The flat base and the “snap” from the pull of the shrouds really helps stabilize it at that critical point when I’m scrambling from the cockpit to the cabin top. I imagine losing control of the mast at that point would be, let’s say, bad.
Gary (or anyone else who has done this surgery), can you post a picture of the bottom of your mast? I understand the concept and geometry but it seems like a huge amount of metal to cut away on my particular mast. If I remember correctly Gary's hull number is close to mine (648) and it should have the same mast section. I just don’t want to have a “Oh, so THATs how how I shoulda done it.” moment after a chunk of my mast is gone. - Jim M17 “Spirit”
On Mar 29, 2016, at 8:29 AM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
On Mar 29, 2016, at 7:53 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
You don't have to take off that much. I ended up cutting back up the mast about a half inch on the sailtrack side and just tapered it to the max width of the mast. Then I eased the sharp aft end of the mast foot to avoid getting bitten by that sharp corner.
The mast is not square as it is. The sail track end (I’d call it the heel) is already tapered, but not all the way to the center of the base. I should do some geometry and try to figure out how little I can cut off.
My worry today is does this make raising the mast harder? The flat base and the “snap” from the pull of the shrouds really helps stabilize it at that critical point when I’m scrambling from the cockpit to the cabin top. I imagine losing control of the mast at that point would be, let’s say, bad.
Hi David, Yes, there is a scramble area getting up over the cabin while supporting the mast. I copied someone else's idea about a gin pole and side guy wires to use the trailer winch to raise and lower the mast. MUCH easier and you can always lock the trailer winch in mid hoist to adjust the mast and rigging. I used to do what you are doing and never had a problem as long as I kept some forward pressure against the mast. The dicey part was when the mast was up, having to hold the forestay with a bare hand while I also had to snap in the shackle or fit a clevis pin. I would think that taking a moment to attach the jib halyard to another line led through a block on the stemhead and then back to the cockpit would enable you to hoist the mast from the cockpit and then cleat off your hoist line so you can go forward to attach the forestay. Just be sure to attach the hoist line above the forestay turnbuckle so even under tension you can pivot the turnbuckle to where you can connect it to the stem head fitting. Driveway is a good place to iron out the kinks in your system. Just be careful of overhead wires. I had my boat rigged and the mast stepped in my driveway a few months back. I thought five feet away from a powerline was enough for the mast head. Fortunately my neighbor who is an ex-lineman told me that he had seen lightning leap from a powerline eight feet to another object. FYI. I think there should be a law making it illegal to electrocute yourself while you are just having fun. I think sailing my boat on my driveway is fun tool. Tom B <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=oa-2115-v2-b> Virus-free. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=oa-2115-v2-b> <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 10:29 AM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
On Mar 29, 2016, at 7:53 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
You don't have to take off that much. I ended up cutting back up the mast about a half inch on the sailtrack side and just tapered it to the max width of the mast. Then I eased the sharp aft end of the mast foot to avoid getting bitten by that sharp corner.
The mast is not square as it is. The sail track end (I’d call it the heel) is already tapered, but not all the way to the center of the base. I should do some geometry and try to figure out how little I can cut off.
My worry today is does this make raising the mast harder? The flat base and the “snap” from the pull of the shrouds really helps stabilize it at that critical point when I’m scrambling from the cockpit to the cabin top. I imagine losing control of the mast at that point would be, let’s say, bad.
On Mar 29, 2016, at 10:10 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi David, Yes, there is a scramble area getting up over the cabin while supporting the mast. I copied someone else's idea about a gin pole and side guy wires to use the trailer winch to raise and lower the mast. MUCH easier and you can always lock the trailer winch in mid hoist to adjust the mast and rigging. I used to do what you are doing and never had a problem as long as I kept some forward pressure against the mast.
I just found what I think is a simpler solution to this problem (the shroud problem, not the mast raising one) that I’ll tell you about as soon as I stop bouncing around and saying, “I am a CHENIUS!” But I was so excited about it that I had to go out and try raising and lowering the mast, even though the wind is whistling straight in from the west, and my boat is parked pointing west. And just as I was edging up onto the cabin top, with one hand on the mast and one on the handrail, I felt the wind gust and the mast start to topple. Holy Cow. Well, it didn’t go down, but I just had to stand there for a while with my arms wrapped around it, looking like a dazed koala, waiting for the wind to die down before I had the nerve to go for the forestay. Have you ever seen the poster that says, “Maybe the purpose of your life is to serve as a warning to others”?
The dicey part was when the mast was up, having to hold the forestay with a bare hand while I also had to snap in the shackle or fit a clevis pin.
The very first time I put the mast up, I said to myself at that point, “Man, it would be embarrassing to drop the pin right now”. Then I dropped the pin. (Now the pin is tied to the shackle with a bit of cord.)
I do a block (or snatch block) at the stem fitting. Run a long line from the fitting on the end of the forestay, lead it through the block at the stem i just put in place and then aft to a winch (or cleat) in the cockpit. Attach the shrouds and the backstay, slide the boom-less ginpole-less mast aft and pin the base to the tabernacle and then stand in the cockpit on the seats and lift the mast to my shoulder while pulling up the slack in the forestay line nest to me in the cockpit. I then stand the mast vertical as i move forward in the cockpit and pull up the slack in the forestay line next to me that's run around that winch and cleat it off when the mast is close to position, then go forward and untie the forestay line and make the pinned connection there. If you tie the line or set this forward block ahead of the pin location on the stem fitting you can even winch a little tension in to the forestay to pin it easier b4 you untie this helper line. This is essentially what I do on my NorSea 27, waaay easier and essentially no excitement on the monty! Nor'Sea uses the boom as a necessary gin pole for in-line leverage and side-to-side stability. Tim M17FD On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 1:33 PM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
On Mar 29, 2016, at 10:10 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi David, Yes, there is a scramble area getting up over the cabin while supporting the mast. I copied someone else's idea about a gin pole and side guy wires to use the trailer winch to raise and lower the mast. MUCH easier and you can always lock the trailer winch in mid hoist to adjust the mast and rigging. I used to do what you are doing and never had a problem as long as I kept some forward pressure against the mast.
I just found what I think is a simpler solution to this problem (the shroud problem, not the mast raising one) that I’ll tell you about as soon as I stop bouncing around and saying, “I am a CHENIUS!” But I was so excited about it that I had to go out and try raising and lowering the mast, even though the wind is whistling straight in from the west, and my boat is parked pointing west. And just as I was edging up onto the cabin top, with one hand on the mast and one on the handrail, I felt the wind gust and the mast start to topple.
Holy Cow.
Well, it didn’t go down, but I just had to stand there for a while with my arms wrapped around it, looking like a dazed koala, waiting for the wind to die down before I had the nerve to go for the forestay.
Have you ever seen the poster that says, “Maybe the purpose of your life is to serve as a warning to others”?
The dicey part was when the mast was up, having to hold the forestay with a bare hand while I also had to snap in the shackle or fit a clevis pin.
The very first time I put the mast up, I said to myself at that point, “Man, it would be embarrassing to drop the pin right now”. Then I dropped the pin. (Now the pin is tied to the shackle with a bit of cord.)
I do the same Tim, works great. Front block just stays attached with its lone all the time. Jazz On Mar 29, 2016 12:12 PM, "Timothy JarviMD" <tjarvi@esnm.us> wrote:
I do a block (or snatch block) at the stem fitting. Run a long line from the fitting on the end of the forestay, lead it through the block at the stem i just put in place and then aft to a winch (or cleat) in the cockpit. Attach the shrouds and the backstay, slide the boom-less ginpole-less mast aft and pin the base to the tabernacle and then stand in the cockpit on the seats and lift the mast to my shoulder while pulling up the slack in the forestay line nest to me in the cockpit. I then stand the mast vertical as i move forward in the cockpit and pull up the slack in the forestay line next to me that's run around that winch and cleat it off when the mast is close to position, then go forward and untie the forestay line and make the pinned connection there. If you tie the line or set this forward block ahead of the pin location on the stem fitting you can even winch a little tension in to the forestay to pin it easier b4 you untie this helper line. This is essentially what I do on my NorSea 27, waaay easier and essentially no excitement on the monty! Nor'Sea uses the boom as a necessary gin pole for in-line leverage and side-to-side stability. Tim
M17FD
On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 1:33 PM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
On Mar 29, 2016, at 10:10 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi David, Yes, there is a scramble area getting up over the cabin while
supporting
the mast. I copied someone else's idea about a gin pole and side guy wires to use the trailer winch to raise and lower the mast. MUCH easier and you can always lock the trailer winch in mid hoist to adjust the mast and rigging. I used to do what you are doing and never had a problem as long as I kept some forward pressure against the mast.
I just found what I think is a simpler solution to this problem (the shroud problem, not the mast raising one) that I’ll tell you about as soon as I stop bouncing around and saying, “I am a CHENIUS!” But I was so excited about it that I had to go out and try raising and lowering the mast, even though the wind is whistling straight in from the west, and my boat is parked pointing west. And just as I was edging up onto the cabin top, with one hand on the mast and one on the handrail, I felt the wind gust and the mast start to topple.
Holy Cow.
Well, it didn’t go down, but I just had to stand there for a while with my arms wrapped around it, looking like a dazed koala, waiting for the wind to die down before I had the nerve to go for the forestay.
Have you ever seen the poster that says, “Maybe the purpose of your life is to serve as a warning to others”?
The dicey part was when the mast was up, having to hold the forestay with a bare hand while I also had to snap in the shackle or fit a clevis pin.
The very first time I put the mast up, I said to myself at that point, “Man, it would be embarrassing to drop the pin right now”. Then I dropped the pin. (Now the pin is tied to the shackle with a bit of cord.)
The extra line which is run through the stemhead block to the forestay can also be used for a jib downhaul so it is always ready for use in either circumstance. Tom B <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=oa-2115-v2-c> No threats detected. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=oa-2115-v2-c> <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 3:01 PM, Jazzy <jazzydaze@gmail.com> wrote:
I do the same Tim, works great. Front block just stays attached with its lone all the time.
Jazz On Mar 29, 2016 12:12 PM, "Timothy JarviMD" <tjarvi@esnm.us> wrote:
I do a block (or snatch block) at the stem fitting. Run a long line from the fitting on the end of the forestay, lead it through the block at the stem i just put in place and then aft to a winch (or cleat) in the cockpit. Attach the shrouds and the backstay, slide the boom-less ginpole-less mast aft and pin the base to the tabernacle and then stand in the cockpit on the seats and lift the mast to my shoulder while pulling up the slack in the forestay line nest to me in the cockpit. I then stand the mast vertical as i move forward in the cockpit and pull up the slack in the forestay line next to me that's run around that winch and cleat it off when the mast is close to position, then go forward and untie the forestay line and make the pinned connection there. If you tie the line or set this forward block ahead of the pin location on the stem fitting you can even winch a little tension in to the forestay to pin it easier b4 you untie this helper line. This is essentially what I do on my NorSea 27, waaay easier and essentially no excitement on the monty! Nor'Sea uses the boom as a necessary gin pole for in-line leverage and side-to-side stability. Tim
M17FD
On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 1:33 PM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
On Mar 29, 2016, at 10:10 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi David, Yes, there is a scramble area getting up over the cabin while
supporting
the mast. I copied someone else's idea about a gin pole and side guy wires to use the trailer winch to raise and lower the mast. MUCH easier and you can always lock the trailer winch in mid hoist to adjust the mast and rigging. I used to do what you are doing and never had a problem as long as I kept some forward pressure against the mast.
I just found what I think is a simpler solution to this problem (the shroud problem, not the mast raising one) that I’ll tell you about as soon as I stop bouncing around and saying, “I am a CHENIUS!” But I was so excited about it that I had to go out and try raising and lowering the mast, even though the wind is whistling straight in from the west, and my boat is parked pointing west. And just as I was edging up onto the cabin top, with one hand on the mast and one on the handrail, I felt the wind gust and the mast start to topple.
Holy Cow.
Well, it didn’t go down, but I just had to stand there for a while with my arms wrapped around it, looking like a dazed koala, waiting for the wind to die down before I had the nerve to go for the forestay.
Have you ever seen the poster that says, “Maybe the purpose of your life is to serve as a warning to others”?
The dicey part was when the mast was up, having to hold the forestay with a bare hand while I also had to snap in the shackle or fit a clevis pin.
The very first time I put the mast up, I said to myself at that point, “Man, it would be embarrassing to drop the pin right now”. Then I dropped the pin. (Now the pin is tied to the shackle with a bit of cord.)
When the mast tilts back on its heel, the top goes up, but not by very much. In fact it’s the cosine error of a very small angle and comes out to be maybe .015”. The shrouds look to be almost exactly in line with the mast so they’re really not going over center. I don’t think this adds up to anything. My T bolts can’t be bending when the mast is up or nearly up, because they bend in the same plane as the chainplate tab, which is the direction the shackle pivots. In fact the shackle and T bolt form a U-joint. The only way it can bend is when it’s out of plane with both pivots. This actually happens when the base of the shroud is trying to go from horizontal to vertical. Look: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ard2whxn1u62ksk/P3290005-Edit-2.jpg?dl=0 The shackle (on the upper only) drops to the outside, the turnbuckle swings back, and trying to pull the shroud upright pulls sideways on the T bolt until the shackle pops upright. However, if the shackle is upright to start with: https://www.dropbox.com/s/tvrfyvkihd3t310/P3290004-Edit.jpg?dl=0 Which leads me to this One Weird Trick: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vedty5ctl7gb63a/P3290001.jpg?dl=0 Yeah. A rubber band.
good solution David R.! i've bent a few t-bolts ... it happens. on SWEET PEA i run the shrouds a little loose (still 'snug' but not at all close to Catalina 22 tight). haven't had a problem with this (mast is still up). for raising/lowering i only loosen the backstay turnbuckle (as mentioned by another earlier in this discussion). -- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 5:52 PM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
When the mast tilts back on its heel, the top goes up, but not by very much. In fact it’s the cosine error of a very small angle and comes out to be maybe .015”. The shrouds look to be almost exactly in line with the mast so they’re really not going over center. I don’t think this adds up to anything.
My T bolts can’t be bending when the mast is up or nearly up, because they bend in the same plane as the chainplate tab, which is the direction the shackle pivots. In fact the shackle and T bolt form a U-joint. The only way it can bend is when it’s out of plane with both pivots.
This actually happens when the base of the shroud is trying to go from horizontal to vertical. Look:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ard2whxn1u62ksk/P3290005-Edit-2.jpg?dl=0
The shackle (on the upper only) drops to the outside, the turnbuckle swings back, and trying to pull the shroud upright pulls sideways on the T bolt until the shackle pops upright.
However, if the shackle is upright to start with:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tvrfyvkihd3t310/P3290004-Edit.jpg?dl=0
Which leads me to this One Weird Trick:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vedty5ctl7gb63a/P3290001.jpg?dl=0
Yeah. A rubber band.
On Mar 29, 2016, at 5:19 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
on SWEET PEA i run the shrouds a little loose (still 'snug' but not at all close to Catalina 22 tight). haven't had a problem with this (mast is still up). for raising/lowering i only loosen the backstay turnbuckle (as mentioned by another earlier in this discussion).
Like Thomas B. I let the backstay tensioner take care of it. I don’t really feel like messing with turnbuckles.
On Mar 29, 2016, at 5:34 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
The final ease would be putting a quick release lever on the forestay. No need to try and make the stay connection under tension or remember how many turns to slack & tighten a turnbuckle. Just hook it on and then snug it to pre-set tension with the lever-lock. Used to sail a club Potter 19 both before and after one of these was added. Boy did it make it so much easier.
I was wondering about that. Would it be better to put the quick-release on the backstay? My bottom jib hank keeps getting hung up on the turnbuckle thimble. I saw on Jerry Montgomery’s web site he mentioned the possibility of a forestay with no adjuster at all, and thought that sounded neat.
Lovely! Thanks for the well illustrated tips-n-tricks item. I use a bungee-ball "rubber band" to secure the turnbuckles/shrouds together close to the chainplate anyhow for travel. If I just put them on this way to start with, they can stay there between landing and launching and be one less thing to do when raising. FWIW my M17 came to me set up for raising from the bow, not the stern. So far so good. The mast slides out over the tow vehicle, not out into any traffic that may be coming through the boat trailer rigging/parking area. The shrouds are snug when mast is raised, but not super tight. I didn't have any problem with getting over the "hump" of the front corner of the mast. I just slack the backstay turnbuckle a bit before raising so it's under less tension when hooking to the split stays, then snug it up again. That ring where the masthead piece of backstay meets the split backstay is a lot easier to work with for attaching/detaching than the forestay attachment point. The final ease would be putting a quick release lever on the forestay. No need to try and make the stay connection under tension or remember how many turns to slack & tighten a turnbuckle. Just hook it on and then snug it to pre-set tension with the lever-lock. Used to sail a club Potter 19 both before and after one of these was added. Boy did it make it so much easier. cheers, John S. On 03/29/2016 04:52 PM, David Rifkind wrote:
When the mast tilts back on its heel, the top goes up, but not by very much. In fact it’s the cosine error of a very small angle and comes out to be maybe .015”. The shrouds look to be almost exactly in line with the mast so they’re really not going over center. I don’t think this adds up to anything.
My T bolts can’t be bending when the mast is up or nearly up, because they bend in the same plane as the chainplate tab, which is the direction the shackle pivots. In fact the shackle and T bolt form a U-joint. The only way it can bend is when it’s out of plane with both pivots.
This actually happens when the base of the shroud is trying to go from horizontal to vertical. Look:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ard2whxn1u62ksk/P3290005-Edit-2.jpg?dl=0
The shackle (on the upper only) drops to the outside, the turnbuckle swings back, and trying to pull the shroud upright pulls sideways on the T bolt until the shackle pops upright.
However, if the shackle is upright to start with:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tvrfyvkihd3t310/P3290004-Edit.jpg?dl=0
Which leads me to this One Weird Trick:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vedty5ctl7gb63a/P3290001.jpg?dl=0
Yeah. A rubber band.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
On 3/29/2016 7:34 PM, John Schinnerer wrote: Hi John, Careful with the bungee-ball "rubber band". I used them once as sail stops, but gave that up very rapidly after I loosened one, and it snapped back and hit me in the face. That's when I went back to normal sail stops made of cloth tape. They don't snap back and bite you. Connie
Lovely! Thanks for the well illustrated tips-n-tricks item. I use a bungee-ball "rubber band" to secure the turnbuckles/shrouds together close to the chainplate anyhow for travel. If I just put them on this way to start with, they can stay there between landing and launching and be one less thing to do when raising.
FWIW my M17 came to me set up for raising from the bow, not the stern. So far so good. The mast slides out over the tow vehicle, not out into any traffic that may be coming through the boat trailer rigging/parking area.
The shrouds are snug when mast is raised, but not super tight. I didn't have any problem with getting over the "hump" of the front corner of the mast. I just slack the backstay turnbuckle a bit before raising so it's under less tension when hooking to the split stays, then snug it up again. That ring where the masthead piece of backstay meets the split backstay is a lot easier to work with for attaching/detaching than the forestay attachment point.
The final ease would be putting a quick release lever on the forestay. No need to try and make the stay connection under tension or remember how many turns to slack & tighten a turnbuckle. Just hook it on and then snug it to pre-set tension with the lever-lock. Used to sail a club Potter 19 both before and after one of these was added. Boy did it make it so much easier.
cheers, John S.
On 03/29/2016 04:52 PM, David Rifkind wrote:
When the mast tilts back on its heel, the top goes up, but not by very much. In fact it’s the cosine error of a very small angle and comes out to be maybe .015”. The shrouds look to be almost exactly in line with the mast so they’re really not going over center. I don’t think this adds up to anything.
My T bolts can’t be bending when the mast is up or nearly up, because they bend in the same plane as the chainplate tab, which is the direction the shackle pivots. In fact the shackle and T bolt form a U-joint. The only way it can bend is when it’s out of plane with both pivots.
This actually happens when the base of the shroud is trying to go from horizontal to vertical. Look:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ard2whxn1u62ksk/P3290005-Edit-2.jpg?dl=0
The shackle (on the upper only) drops to the outside, the turnbuckle swings back, and trying to pull the shroud upright pulls sideways on the T bolt until the shackle pops upright.
However, if the shackle is upright to start with:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tvrfyvkihd3t310/P3290004-Edit.jpg?dl=0
Which leads me to this One Weird Trick:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vedty5ctl7gb63a/P3290001.jpg?dl=0
Yeah. A rubber band.
Instead of a rubber bank I used a bolt run through both "u" clips that articulate with the "t" bolts so they always remain upright and don't fall off the side of the chainplate. <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=oa-2115-v2-c> No threats detected. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=oa-2115-v2-c> <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 6:52 PM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
When the mast tilts back on its heel, the top goes up, but not by very much. In fact it’s the cosine error of a very small angle and comes out to be maybe .015”. The shrouds look to be almost exactly in line with the mast so they’re really not going over center. I don’t think this adds up to anything.
My T bolts can’t be bending when the mast is up or nearly up, because they bend in the same plane as the chainplate tab, which is the direction the shackle pivots. In fact the shackle and T bolt form a U-joint. The only way it can bend is when it’s out of plane with both pivots.
This actually happens when the base of the shroud is trying to go from horizontal to vertical. Look:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ard2whxn1u62ksk/P3290005-Edit-2.jpg?dl=0
The shackle (on the upper only) drops to the outside, the turnbuckle swings back, and trying to pull the shroud upright pulls sideways on the T bolt until the shackle pops upright.
However, if the shackle is upright to start with:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tvrfyvkihd3t310/P3290004-Edit.jpg?dl=0
Which leads me to this One Weird Trick:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vedty5ctl7gb63a/P3290001.jpg?dl=0
Yeah. A rubber band.
On Mar 29, 2016, at 9:55 PM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Instead of a rubber bank I used a bolt run through both "u" clips that articulate with the "t" bolts so they always remain upright and don't fall off the side of the chainplate.
That works nicely. Thanks, I’m retiring the rubber bands.
Pics! On Mar 31, 2016 3:30 PM, "David Rifkind" <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
On Mar 29, 2016, at 9:55 PM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Instead of a rubber bank I used a bolt run through both "u" clips that articulate with the "t" bolts so they always remain upright and don't fall off the side of the chainplate.
That works nicely. Thanks, I’m retiring the rubber bands.
On Mar 31, 2016, at 8:13 PM, Jazzy <jazzydaze@gmail.com> wrote:
Pics!
It’s not exactly Pulitzer Prize material, but here you go: https://www.dropbox.com/s/oqw5id6t8j7k1gc/P4010001.jpg?dl=0
On Mar 31, 2016 3:30 PM, "David Rifkind" <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
On Mar 29, 2016, at 9:55 PM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Instead of a rubber bank I used a bolt run through both "u" clips that articulate with the "t" bolts so they always remain upright and don't fall off the side of the chainplate.
That works nicely. Thanks, I’m retiring the rubber bands.
That's a beauty, good one guys I will make this mod. Jazz On Apr 1, 2016 5:56 PM, "David Rifkind" <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
On Mar 31, 2016, at 8:13 PM, Jazzy <jazzydaze@gmail.com> wrote:
Pics!
It’s not exactly Pulitzer Prize material, but here you go:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/oqw5id6t8j7k1gc/P4010001.jpg?dl=0
On Mar 31, 2016 3:30 PM, "David Rifkind" <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
On Mar 29, 2016, at 9:55 PM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Instead of a rubber bank I used a bolt run through both "u" clips that articulate with the "t" bolts so they always remain upright and don't fall off the side of the chainplate.
That works nicely. Thanks, I’m retiring the rubber bands.
Thank you for the pictures. I couldn't figure out what you guys were talking about, but the boat is in the shop and I do know I have two bent turnbuckles. Now I know why. Fantastic! Thank you so much. What a resource!
Nice closeup, David. Tom B <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=oa-2115-v2-b> Virus-free. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=oa-2115-v2-b> <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 7:56 PM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
On Mar 31, 2016, at 8:13 PM, Jazzy <jazzydaze@gmail.com> wrote:
Pics!
It’s not exactly Pulitzer Prize material, but here you go:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/oqw5id6t8j7k1gc/P4010001.jpg?dl=0
On Mar 31, 2016 3:30 PM, "David Rifkind" <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
On Mar 29, 2016, at 9:55 PM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Instead of a rubber bank I used a bolt run through both "u" clips that articulate with the "t" bolts so they always remain upright and don't fall off the side of the chainplate.
That works nicely. Thanks, I’m retiring the rubber bands.
participants (13)
-
Conbert Benneck -
Dave Scobie -
David Platt -
David Rifkind -
GARY M HYDE -
James Poulakis -
Jazzy -
jerry＠jerrymontgomery.org -
John Schinnerer -
Rich Makela -
Rick Davies -
Thomas Buzzi -
Timothy JarviMD