OK, I'm learning by leaps and bounds here. I really appreciate the help. It makes more sense now that I know the opening was already lowered. So then the gooseneck would be inserted and raised up a bit in the mast...but where would that line from the gooseneck have been anchored to keep the boom down (resisting the sail and halyard pulling up)? I'll attach a couple more photos to show more.I found what I assume is the mainsheet with two blocks. I'm guessing the larger block with cam cleat attaches to the traveller on the forward cockpit sole, and the single block goes on the eye about midway on the boom. Correct? And how would the jib sheets be run back on the M17? I did find 2 separate single blocks; I'm not sure where they were used. I also have a telescoping forspar; it has what a would call a probe on one end and a clip on the other end. Gee, I'm almost ready to drop the mast again, install the halyards (I found 2), raise the mast again and hoist the sails. Then I can take real measurements for the new mast. Oh, there was also a custom whatsit in a locker (see photo). It's made from a pvc glue in coupling and two jam or V cleats; any idea what this was for?
To anchor the gooseneck downhaul you need one of these cleats (available from Dwyer) that goes in the mast slot at the base of the mast. You are right about the mainsheet and blocks. That o.e. 3 part system is a little underpowered and a lot of us have upgraded to a 4 part system. The two blocks with the snap shackles are the jib/genoa sheet lead blocks. They attach through the various slots in the aluminum toerail, and can be moved more forward or aft to adjust sail twist. The Forespar branded pole is a whisker pole for the jib or genoa, a nice bonus. It is used to keep the sail from collapsing when running downwind. The "probe" goes in the sail's clew cringle and the clip attaches to a loop that should be about 3 feet up on the front of the mast. I do not recognize the custom whatsit but it probably is supposed to be used to secure something for trailering. -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of Gerry Lempicki via montgomery_boats Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2019 6:28 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: M17 Rigging OK, I'm learning by leaps and bounds here. I really appreciate the help. It makes more sense now that I know the opening was already lowered. So then the gooseneck would be inserted and raised up a bit in the mast...but where would that line from the gooseneck have been anchored to keep the boom down (resisting the sail and halyard pulling up)? I'll attach a couple more photos to show more.I found what I assume is the mainsheet with two blocks. I'm guessing the larger block with cam cleat attaches to the traveller on the forward cockpit sole, and the single block goes on the eye about midway on the boom. Correct? And how would the jib sheets be run back on the M17? I did find 2 separate single blocks; I'm not sure where they were used. I also have a telescoping forspar; it has what a would call a probe on one end and a clip on the other end. Gee, I'm almost ready to drop the mast again, install the halyards (I found 2), raise the mast again and hoist the sails. Then I can take real measurements for the new mast. Oh, there was also a custom whatsit in a locker (see photo). It's made from a pvc glue in coupling and two jam or V cleats; any idea what this was for?
I had to just go out with a flashlight to look for the whisker pole loop on the front of the mast; it was there! I hadn't noticed it before. Wow, I sure am glad I posted here today. Being a newbie I was a bit frustrated this morning trying to figure some of this out and wondering what I got myself into. I think all my assembly questions have been answered! For today anyway. LOL The one burning question left in my mind is what to do for replacing the standing rigging. Is there a compelling reason to leave the nicro press oval sleeve and thimbles for the swaged wire style terminations? It seems that a tool to do nicro press sleeve crimping is reasonable enough, the others not so much. I'd probably have a shop make them if changing style. On Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 9:16:13 PM EDT, swwheatley@comcast.net <swwheatley@comcast.net> wrote: To anchor the gooseneck downhaul you need one of these cleats (available from Dwyer) that goes in the mast slot at the base of the mast. You are right about the mainsheet and blocks. That o.e. 3 part system is a little underpowered and a lot of us have upgraded to a 4 part system. The two blocks with the snap shackles are the jib/genoa sheet lead blocks. They attach through the various slots in the aluminum toerail, and can be moved more forward or aft to adjust sail twist. The Forespar branded pole is a whisker pole for the jib or genoa, a nice bonus. It is used to keep the sail from collapsing when running downwind. The "probe" goes in the sail's clew cringle and the clip attaches to a loop that should be about 3 feet up on the front of the mast. I do not recognize the custom whatsit but it probably is supposed to be used to secure something for trailering.
You can do your own stuff with Nicopress, yes. You won't be doing your own swaged fittings, unless you happen to own the right kind of machine shop... :-) I am most often a pretty dedicated DIY person myself, and that said, standing rigging is one of the few places I get it done by a quality specialized provider. My experience with the bulky, clunky, snagging, jamming crooked while trying to raise mast-prone nicopress standing rigging my boat came with is a main reason why. Also when I looked into it - had to, for the new forestay - it's really not that expensive, for what you are getting. My new forestay, swaged with clean simple functional, right hardware for the job, minimal snag/tangle/jam ends, was ~$65, and that included ~$10 shipping from east to west coast. Parts $7 each for swage marine eye (top) and swage rigging stud (bottom). Two swages at $7.50 each. Wire to length at just under $15. So $44 actually - but I needed a toggle up top for forestay, ~$11 part, so $55 plus shipping. If I had realized when getting forestay that I'd need backstay and ordered both at once I'd have saved a few $$ on shipping. Main thing is, you have to do very very (very) careful measurements to give to the shop. If they make it to your spec and it's too short or long...it's on you. There are also DIY compression fittings you could try for some applications. Look up 'swageless' fittings from marine suppliers. Norseman and Sta-Lok and Hayn hi-mod are some of the brands I've seen. Bulkier than machine swaged, but cleaner than nicopress. And you can't use them for some applications, for example a forestay with furler. Also they are pretty pricey per fitting (though you can re-use them). Like $30-$40 and up for a single fitting (stud, eye, etc.). Machine swage fitting plus swaging is half the price or less. There are no doubt applications that DIY nicopress is handy for, but from my experience I would recommend against it for your standing rigging. cheers, John On 03/19/2019 07:21 PM, Gerry Lempicki via montgomery_boats wrote:
I had to just go out with a flashlight to look for the whisker pole loop on the front of the mast; it was there! I hadn't noticed it before. Wow, I sure am glad I posted here today. Being a newbie I was a bit frustrated this morning trying to figure some of this out and wondering what I got myself into. I think all my assembly questions have been answered! For today anyway. LOL The one burning question left in my mind is what to do for replacing the standing rigging. Is there a compelling reason to leave the nicro press oval sleeve and thimbles for the swaged wire style terminations? It seems that a tool to do nicro press sleeve crimping is reasonable enough, the others not so much. I'd probably have a shop make them if changing style.
On Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 9:16:13 PM EDT, swwheatley@comcast.net <swwheatley@comcast.net> wrote:
To anchor the gooseneck downhaul you need one of these cleats (available from Dwyer) that goes in the mast slot at the base of the mast.
You are right about the mainsheet and blocks. That o.e. 3 part system is a little underpowered and a lot of us have upgraded to a 4 part system.
The two blocks with the snap shackles are the jib/genoa sheet lead blocks. They attach through the various slots in the aluminum toerail, and can be moved more forward or aft to adjust sail twist.
The Forespar branded pole is a whisker pole for the jib or genoa, a nice bonus. It is used to keep the sail from collapsing when running downwind. The "probe" goes in the sail's clew cringle and the clip attaches to a loop that should be about 3 feet up on the front of the mast.
I do not recognize the custom whatsit but it probably is supposed to be used to secure something for trailering.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
This is a good place to go to the source, Jerry does rigging fabrication. Thomas Howe -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of John Schinnerer Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2019 11:15 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 Rigging You can do your own stuff with Nicopress, yes. You won't be doing your own swaged fittings, unless you happen to own the right kind of machine shop... :-) I am most often a pretty dedicated DIY person myself, and that said, standing rigging is one of the few places I get it done by a quality specialized provider. My experience with the bulky, clunky, snagging, jamming crooked while trying to raise mast-prone nicopress standing rigging my boat came with is a main reason why. Also when I looked into it - had to, for the new forestay - it's really not that expensive, for what you are getting. My new forestay, swaged with clean simple functional, right hardware for the job, minimal snag/tangle/jam ends, was ~$65, and that included ~$10 shipping from east to west coast. Parts $7 each for swage marine eye (top) and swage rigging stud (bottom). Two swages at $7.50 each. Wire to length at just under $15. So $44 actually - but I needed a toggle up top for forestay, ~$11 part, so $55 plus shipping. If I had realized when getting forestay that I'd need backstay and ordered both at once I'd have saved a few $$ on shipping. Main thing is, you have to do very very (very) careful measurements to give to the shop. If they make it to your spec and it's too short or long...it's on you. There are also DIY compression fittings you could try for some applications. Look up 'swageless' fittings from marine suppliers. Norseman and Sta-Lok and Hayn hi-mod are some of the brands I've seen. Bulkier than machine swaged, but cleaner than nicopress. And you can't use them for some applications, for example a forestay with furler. Also they are pretty pricey per fitting (though you can re-use them). Like $30-$40 and up for a single fitting (stud, eye, etc.). Machine swage fitting plus swaging is half the price or less. There are no doubt applications that DIY nicopress is handy for, but from my experience I would recommend against it for your standing rigging. cheers, John On 03/19/2019 07:21 PM, Gerry Lempicki via montgomery_boats wrote:
I had to just go out with a flashlight to look for the whisker pole loop on the front of the mast; it was there! I hadn't noticed it before. Wow, I sure am glad I posted here today. Being a newbie I was a bit frustrated this morning trying to figure some of this out and wondering what I got myself into. I think all my assembly questions have been answered! For today anyway. LOL The one burning question left in my mind is what to do for replacing the standing rigging. Is there a compelling reason to leave the nicro press oval sleeve and thimbles for the swaged wire style terminations? It seems that a tool to do nicro press sleeve crimping is reasonable enough, the others not so much. I'd probably have a shop make them if changing style.
On Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 9:16:13 PM EDT, swwheatley@comcast.net <swwheatley@comcast.net> wrote:
To anchor the gooseneck downhaul you need one of these cleats (available from Dwyer) that goes in the mast slot at the base of the mast.
You are right about the mainsheet and blocks. That o.e. 3 part system is a little underpowered and a lot of us have upgraded to a 4 part system.
The two blocks with the snap shackles are the jib/genoa sheet lead blocks. They attach through the various slots in the aluminum toerail, and can be moved more forward or aft to adjust sail twist.
The Forespar branded pole is a whisker pole for the jib or genoa, a nice bonus. It is used to keep the sail from collapsing when running downwind. The "probe" goes in the sail's clew cringle and the clip attaches to a loop that should be about 3 feet up on the front of the mast.
I do not recognize the custom whatsit but it probably is supposed to be used to secure something for trailering.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I did my M15 standing rigging myself with Hayn hi-mod fittings and 316 wire, and am really happy with the results. If I ever want to redo it, I can just buy wire and the fittings are reusable indefinitely. It cost a bit more than pre-made swaged fittings, but I like the results better. When I walk around any marina I can see cracks in the bottom shroud swage fittings where they burst from internal corrosion. With the hi-mods this won't happen, because they're assembled volumetrically filled with sealant, and the metals are better. It was a few years ago, but I'm pretty sure the total cost was under $200. As an engineer, I am really concerned about things like galvanic and crevice corrosion, and doing everything myself let me make sure that all of the materials and metal to metal contacts are made to last. Sincerely, Tyler ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2019 9:15:11 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 Rigging You can do your own stuff with Nicopress, yes. You won't be doing your own swaged fittings, unless you happen to own the right kind of machine shop... :-) I am most often a pretty dedicated DIY person myself, and that said, standing rigging is one of the few places I get it done by a quality specialized provider. My experience with the bulky, clunky, snagging, jamming crooked while trying to raise mast-prone nicopress standing rigging my boat came with is a main reason why. Also when I looked into it - had to, for the new forestay - it's really not that expensive, for what you are getting. My new forestay, swaged with clean simple functional, right hardware for the job, minimal snag/tangle/jam ends, was ~$65, and that included ~$10 shipping from east to west coast. Parts $7 each for swage marine eye (top) and swage rigging stud (bottom). Two swages at $7.50 each. Wire to length at just under $15. So $44 actually - but I needed a toggle up top for forestay, ~$11 part, so $55 plus shipping. If I had realized when getting forestay that I'd need backstay and ordered both at once I'd have saved a few $$ on shipping. Main thing is, you have to do very very (very) careful measurements to give to the shop. If they make it to your spec and it's too short or long...it's on you. There are also DIY compression fittings you could try for some applications. Look up 'swageless' fittings from marine suppliers. Norseman and Sta-Lok and Hayn hi-mod are some of the brands I've seen. Bulkier than machine swaged, but cleaner than nicopress. And you can't use them for some applications, for example a forestay with furler. Also they are pretty pricey per fitting (though you can re-use them). Like $30-$40 and up for a single fitting (stud, eye, etc.). Machine swage fitting plus swaging is half the price or less. There are no doubt applications that DIY nicopress is handy for, but from my experience I would recommend against it for your standing rigging. cheers, John On 03/19/2019 07:21 PM, Gerry Lempicki via montgomery_boats wrote:
I had to just go out with a flashlight to look for the whisker pole loop on the front of the mast; it was there! I hadn't noticed it before. Wow, I sure am glad I posted here today. Being a newbie I was a bit frustrated this morning trying to figure some of this out and wondering what I got myself into. I think all my assembly questions have been answered! For today anyway. LOL The one burning question left in my mind is what to do for replacing the standing rigging. Is there a compelling reason to leave the nicro press oval sleeve and thimbles for the swaged wire style terminations? It seems that a tool to do nicro press sleeve crimping is reasonable enough, the others not so much. I'd probably have a shop make them if changing style.
On Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 9:16:13 PM EDT, swwheatley@comcast.net <swwheatley@comcast.net> wrote:
To anchor the gooseneck downhaul you need one of these cleats (available from Dwyer) that goes in the mast slot at the base of the mast.
You are right about the mainsheet and blocks. That o.e. 3 part system is a little underpowered and a lot of us have upgraded to a 4 part system.
The two blocks with the snap shackles are the jib/genoa sheet lead blocks. They attach through the various slots in the aluminum toerail, and can be moved more forward or aft to adjust sail twist.
The Forespar branded pole is a whisker pole for the jib or genoa, a nice bonus. It is used to keep the sail from collapsing when running downwind. The "probe" goes in the sail's clew cringle and the clip attaches to a loop that should be about 3 feet up on the front of the mast.
I do not recognize the custom whatsit but it probably is supposed to be used to secure something for trailering.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
On 03/19/2019 06:16 PM, swwheatley@comcast.net wrote:
To anchor the gooseneck downhaul you need one of these cleats (available from Dwyer) that goes in the mast slot at the base of the mast.
There was no sign of any downhaul cleat or other attachment point on my '74 when I got it, nor of any that had been there and was removed, but there was a short downhaul line on the eye on bottom of gooseneck. I have just been using one of the OEM tack reefing v-cleats so far, but will need to add something when I set those up for reefing. Your mainsheet block set looks exactly like my original one, yep...I changed out for a 4-turn ("4-part") system. I use the old 3-turn for solo mast raising. Luckily a nice Harken 2-sheave with becket mainsheet block came with my boat also (I think they had been using it for mast raising, as the 3-turn was rigged with the mainsheet). Those are pretty pricey bits of metal & plastic. No idea what the custom whatsit is for...interesting...let us know when you figure it out! cheers, John -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Also, that traveler is original equipment. I have been using one of those since I got my boat but plan to upgrade to a Ronstan line control traveler this spring. -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of Gerry Lempicki via montgomery_boats Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2019 6:28 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: M17 Rigging OK, I'm learning by leaps and bounds here. I really appreciate the help. It makes more sense now that I know the opening was already lowered. So then the gooseneck would be inserted and raised up a bit in the mast...but where would that line from the gooseneck have been anchored to keep the boom down (resisting the sail and halyard pulling up)? I'll attach a couple more photos to show more.I found what I assume is the mainsheet with two blocks. I'm guessing the larger block with cam cleat attaches to the traveller on the forward cockpit sole, and the single block goes on the eye about midway on the boom. Correct? And how would the jib sheets be run back on the M17? I did find 2 separate single blocks; I'm not sure where they were used. I also have a telescoping forspar; it has what a would call a probe on one end and a clip on the other end. Gee, I'm almost ready to drop the mast again, install the halyards (I found 2), raise the mast again and hoist the sails. Then I can take real measurements for the new mast. Oh, there was also a custom whatsit in a locker (see photo). It's made from a pvc glue in coupling and two jam or V cleats; any idea what this was for?
So today we lowered the mast to put in halyards, then raised it again and tried putting the sails on/up. So far so good. I raised the jib enough so the foot cleared the pulpit, then checked the fit of the whisker pole. If it's supposed to work with this sail and if it should be close to horizontal, that pad eye on the mast should move up to about 40" from the base. Right now it's 22" up from base. Everything else looks good to me; we took a lot of measurements so we know where the boom sits and where to open up the slot for inserting the gooseneck. Next step, order the mast and get the boat off the trailer to remove the centerboard. On Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 9:19:21 PM EDT, <swwheatley@comcast.net> wrote: Also, that traveler is original equipment. I have been using one of those since I got my boat but plan to upgrade to a Ronstan line control traveler this spring.
Is it just my eyes, or are there no portlights in your cabin at all? I think I am seeing just a blank smooth cabin side with no 'window' there...? cheers, John On 03/20/2019 01:30 PM, Gerry Lempicki via montgomery_boats wrote:
So today we lowered the mast to put in halyards, then raised it again and tried putting the sails on/up. So far so good. I raised the jib enough so the foot cleared the pulpit, then checked the fit of the whisker pole. If it's supposed to work with this sail and if it should be close to horizontal, that pad eye on the mast should move up to about 40" from the base. Right now it's 22" up from base. Everything else looks good to me; we took a lot of measurements so we know where the boom sits and where to open up the slot for inserting the gooseneck. Next step, order the mast and get the boat off the trailer to remove the centerboard.
On Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 9:19:21 PM EDT, <swwheatley@comcast.net> wrote:
Also, that traveler is original equipment. I have been using one of those since I got my boat but plan to upgrade to a Ronstan line control traveler this spring.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I noticed the absence of a port light too. I added an opening port light to the front of the cabin on my M-15 to give the cabin better ventilation. Daughter was pregnant with my grand-son at the time and she needed the ventilation, grand-son is now in highschool and I continue to enjoy the improved light and ventilation in the cabin. Steve M-15 # 15 -----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2019 9:09 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 Rigging - photo Is it just my eyes, or are there no portlights in your cabin at all? I think I am seeing just a blank smooth cabin side with no 'window' there...? cheers, John On 03/20/2019 01:30 PM, Gerry Lempicki via montgomery_boats wrote:
So today we lowered the mast to put in halyards, then raised it again and tried putting the sails on/up. So far so good. I raised the jib enough so the foot cleared the pulpit, then checked the fit of the whisker pole. If it's supposed to work with this sail and if it should be close to horizontal, that pad eye on the mast should move up to about 40" from the base. Right now it's 22" up from base. Everything else looks good to me; we took a lot of measurements so we know where the boom sits and where to open up the slot for inserting the gooseneck. Next step, order the mast and get the boat off the trailer to remove the centerboard.
On Tuesday, March 19, 2019, 9:19:21 PM EDT, <swwheatley@comcast.net> wrote: Also, that traveler is original equipment. I have been using one of those since I got my boat but plan to upgrade to a Ronstan line control traveler this spring.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
participants (6)
-
casioqv＠usermail.com -
Gerry Lempicki -
John Schinnerer -
Steve Trapp -
swwheatley＠comcast.net -
Thomas Howe