Re: M_Boats: wire rope for rigging
In a message dated 2/15/08 12:55:56 PM, montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com writes:
Message: 6 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 09:37:13 -0800 From: "Chris and Jeff Packer" <cjpacker@theofficenet.com> Subject: M_Boats: wire rope for rigging To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Message-ID: <000c01c86ff9$696dc300$6c07d5d1@jeffandchris> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Any thoughts about the quality of US manufactured SS 1x19 wire rope vs Korean manufactured wire rope. All I know is that there is a big difference in price. I can buy 3/16" SS 304 1x19 Loos wire rope from West Marine for about $2.00 per foot, or the same wire rope manufactured in Korea at Fisheries Supply in Seattle for about $.70 per foot. Big difference in price! Looking to buy for new standing rigging for my M-23.
Any riggers out there with experience and recommendations?
Jeff
Jeff, The message below is a post I sent to the Flicka list regarding a similar query. I think you will be surprised to learn that the Korean wire is generally thought to be superior. I thought I would include the entire post as there is also the consideration of type 316 vs. 304. As far as I know, the information herein is still correct. Scott G. 1991 M15 'bebe' 1990 Pacific Seacraft Flicka Jamie, Your assertion that 316 wire is a little weaker than 304 is perhaps only partially correct. While the general trend is certainly true between 316 and 304 materials of similar quality, there are some pronounced variances between manufacturers that complicate this. West Marine, in their 2006 catalog publishes breaking strength values for the Loos brand (domestic) wire they sell as follows: 3/16" type 302/304: 4700 lb. 3/16" type 316: 4000 lb.
From this, you would assume a general strength penalty of something like 15%.
If you look at the wire that Rigging Only (www.riggingonly.com) sells, the plot thickens. They sell a 3/16" type 316 wire with a "lowest published breaking strength" of 4316 lb. I called Rigging Only for further explanation, and was told that each spool of their wire comes with full testing results and Mil. Spec. data for that specific spool. Indeed, most spools come in substantially higher than the 4316 lb. number. In the same' boat' as you, I am trying to ascertain whether to go up to 7/32" wire for some or all of my new standing rigging if I use type 316. It would help to know that specification of the original wire, but that does not seem readily available. To this end, I also queried several other prominent rigging lofts about their wire, and whether I needed to go with a size up. I learned a couple of interesting things: 1) All of the lofts I spoke with (you would likely know some of the names) were buying the same kind of wire, and it was *not* from the good old US of A. Indeed, every single loft said the same thing--that the best wire was coming out of Korea. All said that the quality of this wire was amazing--the polish, lack of flaws, and the individual testing of each spool put domestic wire to shame. Most of these riggers complained of the truly abysmal quality of the domestic wire in recent years, and have stopped selling it completely. I can neither corroborate or deny their claims, but I fully intend to use the Korean wire when I re-rig this year. 2) Several of the riggers suggested that blanket statements as to strength requirements are generally bogus, and that each rig (boat type/layout) should be evaluated on a case- by-case basis (including intended use and cruising area). One prominent rigger suggested that some stays could be smaller than others if I really wanted to save weight aloft. At present, I am considering either all Korean 3/16" type 316 of high strength rating, or possibly 7/32" in some or all locations. The argument for having all of the same size is that I would like to carry extra wire and mechanical fittings while cruising, and it would be nice to limit the sizes needed to one. Bert Felton recently did his entire Flicka rig with the high quality 3/16" type 316 Korean wire, and the quality is outstanding. He used the Hayn Hi-Mod fittings, and I intend to do the same, as I have had quite enough of swaged fittings. Norseman and Sta-Lok fittings are great too, but once I did a Hi-Mod fitting, I was a full convert. Anyway, check out the various numbers and see what your rigger thinks. I would frankly trust a real good rigger more than the boat manufacturer anyway. I don't think Bruce Bingham is readily available for questions, and I suspect he would refer you to a rigger anyway. Best, Scott ************** The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. Go to AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565)
Scott, Thanks for the reply and the info. Quite interesting. My 23 has 3/16ths wire on the upper shrouds and forestay. The lowers and the backstay are 5/32 but I am upgrading them to 3/16ths as well. I might take another look at the Hi Mod fittings also. Jeff 1982 M-23 'Clarity' ----- Original Message ----- From: <Wilsometer@aol.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2008 8:37 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: wire rope for rigging In a message dated 2/15/08 12:55:56 PM, montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com writes:
Message: 6 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 09:37:13 -0800 From: "Chris and Jeff Packer" <cjpacker@theofficenet.com> Subject: M_Boats: wire rope for rigging To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Message-ID: <000c01c86ff9$696dc300$6c07d5d1@jeffandchris> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Any thoughts about the quality of US manufactured SS 1x19 wire rope vs Korean manufactured wire rope. All I know is that there is a big difference in price. I can buy 3/16" SS 304 1x19 Loos wire rope from West Marine for about $2.00 per foot, or the same wire rope manufactured in Korea at Fisheries Supply in Seattle for about $.70 per foot. Big difference in price! Looking to buy for new standing rigging for my M-23.
Any riggers out there with experience and recommendations?
Jeff
Jeff, The message below is a post I sent to the Flicka list regarding a similar query. I think you will be surprised to learn that the Korean wire is generally thought to be superior. I thought I would include the entire post as there is also the consideration of type 316 vs. 304. As far as I know, the information herein is still correct. Scott G. 1991 M15 'bebe' 1990 Pacific Seacraft Flicka Jamie, Your assertion that 316 wire is a little weaker than 304 is perhaps only partially correct. While the general trend is certainly true between 316 and 304 materials of similar quality, there are some pronounced variances between manufacturers that complicate this. West Marine, in their 2006 catalog publishes breaking strength values for the Loos brand (domestic) wire they sell as follows: 3/16" type 302/304: 4700 lb. 3/16" type 316: 4000 lb.
From this, you would assume a general strength penalty of something like 15%.
If you look at the wire that Rigging Only (www.riggingonly.com) sells, the plot thickens. They sell a 3/16" type 316 wire with a "lowest published breaking strength" of 4316 lb. I called Rigging Only for further explanation, and was told that each spool of their wire comes with full testing results and Mil. Spec. data for that specific spool. Indeed, most spools come in substantially higher than the 4316 lb. number. In the same' boat' as you, I am trying to ascertain whether to go up to 7/32" wire for some or all of my new standing rigging if I use type 316. It would help to know that specification of the original wire, but that does not seem readily available. To this end, I also queried several other prominent rigging lofts about their wire, and whether I needed to go with a size up. I learned a couple of interesting things: 1) All of the lofts I spoke with (you would likely know some of the names) were buying the same kind of wire, and it was *not* from the good old US of A. Indeed, every single loft said the same thing--that the best wire was coming out of Korea. All said that the quality of this wire was amazing--the polish, lack of flaws, and the individual testing of each spool put domestic wire to shame. Most of these riggers complained of the truly abysmal quality of the domestic wire in recent years, and have stopped selling it completely. I can neither corroborate or deny their claims, but I fully intend to use the Korean wire when I re-rig this year. 2) Several of the riggers suggested that blanket statements as to strength requirements are generally bogus, and that each rig (boat type/layout) should be evaluated on a case- by-case basis (including intended use and cruising area). One prominent rigger suggested that some stays could be smaller than others if I really wanted to save weight aloft. At present, I am considering either all Korean 3/16" type 316 of high strength rating, or possibly 7/32" in some or all locations. The argument for having all of the same size is that I would like to carry extra wire and mechanical fittings while cruising, and it would be nice to limit the sizes needed to one. Bert Felton recently did his entire Flicka rig with the high quality 3/16" type 316 Korean wire, and the quality is outstanding. He used the Hayn Hi-Mod fittings, and I intend to do the same, as I have had quite enough of swaged fittings. Norseman and Sta-Lok fittings are great too, but once I did a Hi-Mod fitting, I was a full convert. Anyway, check out the various numbers and see what your rigger thinks. I would frankly trust a real good rigger more than the boat manufacturer anyway. I don't think Bruce Bingham is readily available for questions, and I suspect he would refer you to a rigger anyway. Best, Scott ************** The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. Go to AOL Music. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?NCID=aolcmp00300000002565) _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
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