IMO a good motor for M17 is 3.5-4H0. anything more is wasted HP & money and excessive weight. Challenge on the motors is there are no 'true' 4HP powerheads as all are de-rated/carbed 6HP blocks. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ On Thu, May 21, 2020, 1:44 PM <ejenkins1953@gmail.com> wrote:
How big of a motor is too big for M17? I have a Volvo penta 3.9 now, seems to motor pretty well but it is an old motor. Thinking of going bigger.
Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
.
*From: *casioqv@usermail.com *Sent: *Thursday, May 21, 2020 4:37 PM *To: *David Grah <d_b_grah@yahoo.com>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> *Subject: *Re: M_Boats: Test results - Honda 2.3 and M17
The M15 sails to windward in pretty strong winds with the right sail setup, but 45mph is probably too much. I have made slow progress to windward in wind that was gusting to I think about 30 knots in SF Bay, under a double reefed main and small jib. I wouldn't have been able to keep the prop in the water for motoring with the shaft length on my Yamaha 2hp.
Sincerely,
Tyler
'81 M15 #157 Defiant
----- Original Message -----
From: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>, john@eco-living.net
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 12:54:34 PM
Subject: M_Boats: Test results - Honda 2.3 and M17
Another bit of data concerning motoring that I was reminded of this morning was when trying to motor our Montgomery 15 into strong winds on Lake Powell. The winds were forecast to gust to 45 miles per hour and, based on the amount of spray, the forecast may have been right.
There wasn't a lot of fetch to get waves big so the main concern was the wind. Our Honda 2 horsepower wide open or close to that setting was able to push the boat slowly forward in these conditions but the main issue we faced was steering. If the bow fell off the wind, the rudder did not have enough authority to turn it back into the wind and, when we steered with the motor in addition, our progress forward slowed significantly because the thrust was diverted from forward progress to turning the boat. So instead of motoring into the wind we went downwind to a sheltered spot and stayed there overnight.
I realized later the centerboard was up at the time and I have wondered if having it down would make a difference as far as ability to steer and therefore our ability to motor into a strong wind. Anyway, although we are sticking with our 2 horsepower motor for our Montgomery 15, there is something to be said for a little extra horsepower.
David GrahBishop California
M-17 Robbin, 1981, has motored on San Francisco Bay with a 6 HP Tohatsu, 55 lbs, and just purrs along into the wind and currents. Based upon weight, it might come close to being too big; certainly have not needed full throttle power at any time. Our main sailing will likely not require working in that much wind and current in the future, so I’ll sell the Tohatsu and rely on the electrical propulsion system (70 lb thrust, 2.5 KWHr battery) that I’d installed several years ago. That is clean, quiet, smooth and controllable. I’m not specifically recommending 6 HP, but ejenkins’ question was a good one, and I just happen to have done the experiment. Bill Dixon M-17 Robbin Windsor, CA From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of ejenkins1953@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 1:44 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats; David Grah Subject: Re: M_Boats: Test results - Honda 2.3 and M17 How big of a motor is too big for M17? I have a Volvo penta 3.9 now, seems to motor pretty well but it is an old motor. Thinking of going bigger. Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10 . From: casioqv@usermail.com Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 4:37 PM To: David Grah <mailto:d_b_grah@yahoo.com> ; For and about Montgomery Sailboats <mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Test results - Honda 2.3 and M17 The M15 sails to windward in pretty strong winds with the right sail setup, but 45mph is probably too much. I have made slow progress to windward in wind that was gusting to I think about 30 knots in SF Bay, under a double reefed main and small jib. I wouldn't have been able to keep the prop in the water for motoring with the shaft length on my Yamaha 2hp. Sincerely, Tyler '81 M15 #157 Defiant ----- Original Message ----- From: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>, john@eco-living.net Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 12:54:34 PM Subject: M_Boats: Test results - Honda 2.3 and M17 Another bit of data concerning motoring that I was reminded of this morning was when trying to motor our Montgomery 15 into strong winds on Lake Powell. The winds were forecast to gust to 45 miles per hour and, based on the amount of spray, the forecast may have been right. There wasn't a lot of fetch to get waves big so the main concern was the wind. Our Honda 2 horsepower wide open or close to that setting was able to push the boat slowly forward in these conditions but the main issue we faced was steering. If the bow fell off the wind, the rudder did not have enough authority to turn it back into the wind and, when we steered with the motor in addition, our progress forward slowed significantly because the thrust was diverted from forward progress to turning the boat. So instead of motoring into the wind we went downwind to a sheltered spot and stayed there overnight. I realized later the centerboard was up at the time and I have wondered if having it down would make a difference as far as ability to steer and therefore our ability to motor into a strong wind. Anyway, although we are sticking with our 2 horsepower motor for our Montgomery 15, there is something to be said for a little extra horsepower. David GrahBishop California
My M17 came with a Tohatsu SailPro 6 hp extra long shaft that previous owners had bought and barely used. I believe it had a high-thrust prop on it also (usually standard for the SailPro versions). It was way too much motor for that boat. Too heavy, 60+ lbs. hanging off a movable mount (way too big to put in the cutout). Way more thrust/HP than needed. The few times I tried it, putting it in gear at idle would be almost too much thrust for maneuvering in tight spaces. I could see and feel it torquing the transom. I would guesstimate that about 1/3 throttle would hit hull speed. A friend had a Ranger 20 for a few years that came with the same motor. It was overkill for that boat too (Ranger 20 has very close to same displacement, waterline, and ballast as an M17). The one trip I did with him in the San Juans, we had to motor back to Anacortes ramp from James Island on our return day due to lack of wind. Again we never went over about 1/3 throttle and were pretty much at hull speed with that. From my research and other reports here (various past threads on this list) I'd say a Tohatsu/Mercury 3.5 hp is plenty for an M17, for the conservatives types who don't feel comfortable with a Honda 2.3 or Suzuki 2.5. Weighs about 25% more (43 lbs vs 31 lbs). But if you want reverse gear, you will have to go with 4-6hp carcass and up. None of the smaller ones have reverse gear. As soon as you go up to a 4hp from any major brand 4-cycle, you are buying the same carcass as their 6hp with strangled carb to reduce HP to 4, and 60 lbs give or take a few. Or with Honda, it's just a 5hp model but same weight. I don't know how Suzuki quality compares to Honda, but their 2.5hp is about $160 cheaper than the Honda. Same weight. Water cooled, so that maintenance to deal with (vs. Honda air-cooled). Fwd-Neutral shifter instead of Honda's centrifugal clutch. cheers, John On 5/21/20 1:44 PM, ejenkins1953@gmail.com wrote:
How big of a motor is too big for M17? I have a Volvo penta 3.9 now, seems to motor pretty well but it is an old motor. Thinking of going bigger.
Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
.
*From: *casioqv@usermail.com <mailto:casioqv@usermail.com> *Sent: *Thursday, May 21, 2020 4:37 PM *To: *David Grah <mailto:d_b_grah@yahoo.com>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats <mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> *Subject: *Re: M_Boats: Test results - Honda 2.3 and M17
The M15 sails to windward in pretty strong winds with the right sail setup, but 45mph is probably too much. I have made slow progress to windward in wind that was gusting to I think about 30 knots in SF Bay, under a double reefed main and small jib. I wouldn't have been able to keep the prop in the water for motoring with the shaft length on my Yamaha 2hp.
Sincerely,
Tyler
'81 M15 #157 Defiant
----- Original Message -----
From: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>, john@eco-living.net
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 12:54:34 PM
Subject: M_Boats: Test results - Honda 2.3 and M17
Another bit of data concerning motoring that I was reminded of this morning was when trying to motor our Montgomery 15 into strong winds on Lake Powell. The winds were forecast to gust to 45 miles per hour and, based on the amount of spray, the forecast may have been right.
There wasn't a lot of fetch to get waves big so the main concern was the wind. Our Honda 2 horsepower wide open or close to that setting was able to push the boat slowly forward in these conditions but the main issue we faced was steering. If the bow fell off the wind, the rudder did not have enough authority to turn it back into the wind and, when we steered with the motor in addition, our progress forward slowed significantly because the thrust was diverted from forward progress to turning the boat. So instead of motoring into the wind we went downwind to a sheltered spot and stayed there overnight.
I realized later the centerboard was up at the time and I have wondered if having it down would make a difference as far as ability to steer and therefore our ability to motor into a strong wind. Anyway, although we are sticking with our 2 horsepower motor for our Montgomery 15, there is something to be said for a little extra horsepower.
David GrahBishop California
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
For perspective - My home, SWALLOW, is a full keeled, 8500# 25' on deck sloop and is powered by a Honda 8. I've never wanted more power ... just wished for an inboard in choppy conditions because of cavitation as SWALLOWING starts to hobbyhorse as the seas get big. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ On Thu, May 21, 2020, 7:14 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
My M17 came with a Tohatsu SailPro 6 hp extra long shaft that previous owners had bought and barely used. I believe it had a high-thrust prop on it also (usually standard for the SailPro versions).
It was way too much motor for that boat. Too heavy, 60+ lbs. hanging off a movable mount (way too big to put in the cutout). Way more thrust/HP than needed. The few times I tried it, putting it in gear at idle would be almost too much thrust for maneuvering in tight spaces. I could see and feel it torquing the transom. I would guesstimate that about 1/3 throttle would hit hull speed.
A friend had a Ranger 20 for a few years that came with the same motor. It was overkill for that boat too (Ranger 20 has very close to same displacement, waterline, and ballast as an M17). The one trip I did with him in the San Juans, we had to motor back to Anacortes ramp from James Island on our return day due to lack of wind. Again we never went over about 1/3 throttle and were pretty much at hull speed with that.
From my research and other reports here (various past threads on this list) I'd say a Tohatsu/Mercury 3.5 hp is plenty for an M17, for the conservatives types who don't feel comfortable with a Honda 2.3 or Suzuki 2.5. Weighs about 25% more (43 lbs vs 31 lbs).
But if you want reverse gear, you will have to go with 4-6hp carcass and up. None of the smaller ones have reverse gear.
As soon as you go up to a 4hp from any major brand 4-cycle, you are buying the same carcass as their 6hp with strangled carb to reduce HP to 4, and 60 lbs give or take a few. Or with Honda, it's just a 5hp model but same weight.
I don't know how Suzuki quality compares to Honda, but their 2.5hp is about $160 cheaper than the Honda. Same weight. Water cooled, so that maintenance to deal with (vs. Honda air-cooled). Fwd-Neutral shifter instead of Honda's centrifugal clutch.
cheers, John
On 5/21/20 1:44 PM, ejenkins1953@gmail.com wrote:
How big of a motor is too big for M17? I have a Volvo penta 3.9 now, seems to motor pretty well but it is an old motor. Thinking of going bigger.
Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
.
*From: *casioqv@usermail.com <mailto:casioqv@usermail.com> *Sent: *Thursday, May 21, 2020 4:37 PM *To: *David Grah <mailto:d_b_grah@yahoo.com>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats <mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> *Subject: *Re: M_Boats: Test results - Honda 2.3 and M17
The M15 sails to windward in pretty strong winds with the right sail setup, but 45mph is probably too much. I have made slow progress to windward in wind that was gusting to I think about 30 knots in SF Bay, under a double reefed main and small jib. I wouldn't have been able to keep the prop in the water for motoring with the shaft length on my Yamaha 2hp.
Sincerely,
Tyler
'81 M15 #157 Defiant
----- Original Message -----
From: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>, john@eco-living.net
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 12:54:34 PM
Subject: M_Boats: Test results - Honda 2.3 and M17
Another bit of data concerning motoring that I was reminded of this morning was when trying to motor our Montgomery 15 into strong winds on Lake Powell. The winds were forecast to gust to 45 miles per hour and, based on the amount of spray, the forecast may have been right.
There wasn't a lot of fetch to get waves big so the main concern was the wind. Our Honda 2 horsepower wide open or close to that setting was able to push the boat slowly forward in these conditions but the main issue we faced was steering. If the bow fell off the wind, the rudder did not have enough authority to turn it back into the wind and, when we steered with the motor in addition, our progress forward slowed significantly because the thrust was diverted from forward progress to turning the boat. So instead of motoring into the wind we went downwind to a sheltered spot and stayed there overnight.
I realized later the centerboard was up at the time and I have wondered if having it down would make a difference as far as ability to steer and therefore our ability to motor into a strong wind. Anyway, although we are sticking with our 2 horsepower motor for our Montgomery 15, there is something to be said for a little extra horsepower.
David GrahBishop California
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
For the smaller 2.3/2.5 HP motors on the M17 with the "outboard notch" in the transom, can you swivel the motor 180 degrees into the reverse position or is it pretty much forward only? I'm wondering if the notch will accommodate the motor as you rotate it and if the drive end and prop will clear the bottom of the boat. Thanks, Rob On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 10:30 PM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
For perspective -
My home, SWALLOW, is a full keeled, 8500# 25' on deck sloop and is powered by a Honda 8. I've never wanted more power ... just wished for an inboard in choppy conditions because of cavitation as SWALLOWING starts to hobbyhorse as the seas get big.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Thu, May 21, 2020, 7:14 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
My M17 came with a Tohatsu SailPro 6 hp extra long shaft that previous owners had bought and barely used. I believe it had a high-thrust prop on it also (usually standard for the SailPro versions).
It was way too much motor for that boat. Too heavy, 60+ lbs. hanging off a movable mount (way too big to put in the cutout). Way more thrust/HP than needed. The few times I tried it, putting it in gear at idle would be almost too much thrust for maneuvering in tight spaces. I could see and feel it torquing the transom. I would guesstimate that about 1/3 throttle would hit hull speed.
A friend had a Ranger 20 for a few years that came with the same motor. It was overkill for that boat too (Ranger 20 has very close to same displacement, waterline, and ballast as an M17). The one trip I did with him in the San Juans, we had to motor back to Anacortes ramp from James Island on our return day due to lack of wind. Again we never went over about 1/3 throttle and were pretty much at hull speed with that.
From my research and other reports here (various past threads on this list) I'd say a Tohatsu/Mercury 3.5 hp is plenty for an M17, for the conservatives types who don't feel comfortable with a Honda 2.3 or Suzuki 2.5. Weighs about 25% more (43 lbs vs 31 lbs).
But if you want reverse gear, you will have to go with 4-6hp carcass and up. None of the smaller ones have reverse gear.
As soon as you go up to a 4hp from any major brand 4-cycle, you are buying the same carcass as their 6hp with strangled carb to reduce HP to 4, and 60 lbs give or take a few. Or with Honda, it's just a 5hp model but same weight.
I don't know how Suzuki quality compares to Honda, but their 2.5hp is about $160 cheaper than the Honda. Same weight. Water cooled, so that maintenance to deal with (vs. Honda air-cooled). Fwd-Neutral shifter instead of Honda's centrifugal clutch.
cheers, John
On 5/21/20 1:44 PM, ejenkins1953@gmail.com wrote:
How big of a motor is too big for M17? I have a Volvo penta 3.9 now, seems to motor pretty well but it is an old motor. Thinking of going bigger.
Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
.
*From: *casioqv@usermail.com <mailto:casioqv@usermail.com> *Sent: *Thursday, May 21, 2020 4:37 PM *To: *David Grah <mailto:d_b_grah@yahoo.com>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats <mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> *Subject: *Re: M_Boats: Test results - Honda 2.3 and M17
The M15 sails to windward in pretty strong winds with the right sail setup, but 45mph is probably too much. I have made slow progress to windward in wind that was gusting to I think about 30 knots in SF Bay, under a double reefed main and small jib. I wouldn't have been able to keep the prop in the water for motoring with the shaft length on my Yamaha 2hp.
Sincerely,
Tyler
'81 M15 #157 Defiant
----- Original Message -----
From: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>, john@eco-living.net
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 12:54:34 PM
Subject: M_Boats: Test results - Honda 2.3 and M17
Another bit of data concerning motoring that I was reminded of this morning was when trying to motor our Montgomery 15 into strong winds on Lake Powell. The winds were forecast to gust to 45 miles per hour and, based on the amount of spray, the forecast may have been right.
There wasn't a lot of fetch to get waves big so the main concern was the wind. Our Honda 2 horsepower wide open or close to that setting was able to push the boat slowly forward in these conditions but the main issue we faced was steering. If the bow fell off the wind, the rudder did not have enough authority to turn it back into the wind and, when we steered with the motor in addition, our progress forward slowed significantly because the thrust was diverted from forward progress to turning the boat. So instead of motoring into the wind we went downwind to a sheltered spot and stayed there overnight.
I realized later the centerboard was up at the time and I have wondered if having it down would make a difference as far as ability to steer and therefore our ability to motor into a strong wind. Anyway, although we are sticking with our 2 horsepower motor for our Montgomery 15, there is something to be said for a little extra horsepower.
David GrahBishop California
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Thanks for that question, forgot to mention that... The Honda 2.3 at least cannot rotate 180 degrees if mounted in the transom notch. It can only be swiveled a rather limited amount as well, for steering/maneuvering. A stand-off transom mount (fixed or adjustable) is needed to be able to rotate the motor for maneuvering and for reverse (180 deg rotation). Same would be true for the Tohatsu/Mercury 3.5, as its power-head is a wee bit bulkier than the Honda 2.3. I haven't seen the Suzuki 2.5 in person so can't say for sure. But my guess is, same situation...it can't have much smaller a power-head than the Honda since it's gotta fit about the same size motor in there. The throttle arm appears to come out on the port side in a similar location. I would definitely recommend an adjustable mount, because: * you can keep the motor fully clear of the water when raised and tilted, even if heeling strongly to that side. * you can adjust the height (shaft depth in water) when motoring to suit wave conditions, boat loading/trim, etc. (or even a change of motor) cheers, John On 5/23/20 9:39 AM, Rob Bultman wrote:
For the smaller 2.3/2.5 HP motors on the M17 with the "outboard notch" in the transom, can you swivel the motor 180 degrees into the reverse position or is it pretty much forward only? I'm wondering if the notch will accommodate the motor as you rotate it and if the drive end and prop will clear the bottom of the boat.
Thanks, Rob
On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 10:30 PM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
For perspective -
My home, SWALLOW, is a full keeled, 8500# 25' on deck sloop and is powered by a Honda 8. I've never wanted more power ... just wished for an inboard in choppy conditions because of cavitation as SWALLOWING starts to hobbyhorse as the seas get big.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Thu, May 21, 2020, 7:14 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
My M17 came with a Tohatsu SailPro 6 hp extra long shaft that previous owners had bought and barely used. I believe it had a high-thrust prop on it also (usually standard for the SailPro versions).
It was way too much motor for that boat. Too heavy, 60+ lbs. hanging off a movable mount (way too big to put in the cutout). Way more thrust/HP than needed. The few times I tried it, putting it in gear at idle would be almost too much thrust for maneuvering in tight spaces. I could see and feel it torquing the transom. I would guesstimate that about 1/3 throttle would hit hull speed.
A friend had a Ranger 20 for a few years that came with the same motor. It was overkill for that boat too (Ranger 20 has very close to same displacement, waterline, and ballast as an M17). The one trip I did with him in the San Juans, we had to motor back to Anacortes ramp from James Island on our return day due to lack of wind. Again we never went over about 1/3 throttle and were pretty much at hull speed with that.
From my research and other reports here (various past threads on this list) I'd say a Tohatsu/Mercury 3.5 hp is plenty for an M17, for the conservatives types who don't feel comfortable with a Honda 2.3 or Suzuki 2.5. Weighs about 25% more (43 lbs vs 31 lbs).
But if you want reverse gear, you will have to go with 4-6hp carcass and up. None of the smaller ones have reverse gear.
As soon as you go up to a 4hp from any major brand 4-cycle, you are buying the same carcass as their 6hp with strangled carb to reduce HP to 4, and 60 lbs give or take a few. Or with Honda, it's just a 5hp model but same weight.
I don't know how Suzuki quality compares to Honda, but their 2.5hp is about $160 cheaper than the Honda. Same weight. Water cooled, so that maintenance to deal with (vs. Honda air-cooled). Fwd-Neutral shifter instead of Honda's centrifugal clutch.
cheers, John
On 5/21/20 1:44 PM, ejenkins1953@gmail.com wrote:
How big of a motor is too big for M17? I have a Volvo penta 3.9 now, seems to motor pretty well but it is an old motor. Thinking of going bigger.
Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
.
*From: *casioqv@usermail.com <mailto:casioqv@usermail.com> *Sent: *Thursday, May 21, 2020 4:37 PM *To: *David Grah <mailto:d_b_grah@yahoo.com>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats <mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> *Subject: *Re: M_Boats: Test results - Honda 2.3 and M17
The M15 sails to windward in pretty strong winds with the right sail setup, but 45mph is probably too much. I have made slow progress to windward in wind that was gusting to I think about 30 knots in SF Bay, under a double reefed main and small jib. I wouldn't have been able to keep the prop in the water for motoring with the shaft length on my Yamaha 2hp.
Sincerely,
Tyler
'81 M15 #157 Defiant
----- Original Message -----
From: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>, john@eco-living.net
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 12:54:34 PM
Subject: M_Boats: Test results - Honda 2.3 and M17
Another bit of data concerning motoring that I was reminded of this morning was when trying to motor our Montgomery 15 into strong winds on Lake Powell. The winds were forecast to gust to 45 miles per hour and, based on the amount of spray, the forecast may have been right.
There wasn't a lot of fetch to get waves big so the main concern was the wind. Our Honda 2 horsepower wide open or close to that setting was able to push the boat slowly forward in these conditions but the main issue we faced was steering. If the bow fell off the wind, the rudder did not have enough authority to turn it back into the wind and, when we steered with the motor in addition, our progress forward slowed significantly because the thrust was diverted from forward progress to turning the boat. So instead of motoring into the wind we went downwind to a sheltered spot and stayed there overnight.
I realized later the centerboard was up at the time and I have wondered if having it down would make a difference as far as ability to steer and therefore our ability to motor into a strong wind. Anyway, although we are sticking with our 2 horsepower motor for our Montgomery 15, there is something to be said for a little extra horsepower.
David GrahBishop California
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I have a 3.5 long shaft Tohatsu and it will not swivel on a stand off mount mounted on the transom. It will either chew into the starboard quarter hull or the rudder. Of course the careful sailor never needs reverse anyway, right?🤔 On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 4:08 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Thanks for that question, forgot to mention that...
The Honda 2.3 at least cannot rotate 180 degrees if mounted in the transom notch.
It can only be swiveled a rather limited amount as well, for steering/maneuvering.
A stand-off transom mount (fixed or adjustable) is needed to be able to rotate the motor for maneuvering and for reverse (180 deg rotation).
Same would be true for the Tohatsu/Mercury 3.5, as its power-head is a wee bit bulkier than the Honda 2.3.
I haven't seen the Suzuki 2.5 in person so can't say for sure. But my guess is, same situation...it can't have much smaller a power-head than the Honda since it's gotta fit about the same size motor in there. The throttle arm appears to come out on the port side in a similar location.
I would definitely recommend an adjustable mount, because: * you can keep the motor fully clear of the water when raised and tilted, even if heeling strongly to that side. * you can adjust the height (shaft depth in water) when motoring to suit wave conditions, boat loading/trim, etc. (or even a change of motor)
cheers, John
On 5/23/20 9:39 AM, Rob Bultman wrote:
For the smaller 2.3/2.5 HP motors on the M17 with the "outboard notch" in the transom, can you swivel the motor 180 degrees into the reverse position or is it pretty much forward only? I'm wondering if the notch will accommodate the motor as you rotate it and if the drive end and prop will clear the bottom of the boat.
Thanks, Rob
On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 10:30 PM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
For perspective -
My home, SWALLOW, is a full keeled, 8500# 25' on deck sloop and is powered by a Honda 8. I've never wanted more power ... just wished for an inboard in choppy conditions because of cavitation as SWALLOWING starts to hobbyhorse as the seas get big.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Thu, May 21, 2020, 7:14 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
My M17 came with a Tohatsu SailPro 6 hp extra long shaft that previous owners had bought and barely used. I believe it had a high-thrust prop on it also (usually standard for the SailPro versions).
It was way too much motor for that boat. Too heavy, 60+ lbs. hanging off a movable mount (way too big to put in the cutout). Way more thrust/HP than needed. The few times I tried it, putting it in gear at idle would be almost too much thrust for maneuvering in tight spaces. I could see and feel it torquing the transom. I would guesstimate that about 1/3 throttle would hit hull speed.
A friend had a Ranger 20 for a few years that came with the same motor. It was overkill for that boat too (Ranger 20 has very close to same displacement, waterline, and ballast as an M17). The one trip I did with him in the San Juans, we had to motor back to Anacortes ramp from James Island on our return day due to lack of wind. Again we never went over about 1/3 throttle and were pretty much at hull speed with that.
From my research and other reports here (various past threads on this list) I'd say a Tohatsu/Mercury 3.5 hp is plenty for an M17, for the conservatives types who don't feel comfortable with a Honda 2.3 or Suzuki 2.5. Weighs about 25% more (43 lbs vs 31 lbs).
But if you want reverse gear, you will have to go with 4-6hp carcass and up. None of the smaller ones have reverse gear.
As soon as you go up to a 4hp from any major brand 4-cycle, you are buying the same carcass as their 6hp with strangled carb to reduce HP to 4, and 60 lbs give or take a few. Or with Honda, it's just a 5hp model but same weight.
I don't know how Suzuki quality compares to Honda, but their 2.5hp is about $160 cheaper than the Honda. Same weight. Water cooled, so that maintenance to deal with (vs. Honda air-cooled). Fwd-Neutral shifter instead of Honda's centrifugal clutch.
cheers, John
On 5/21/20 1:44 PM, ejenkins1953@gmail.com wrote:
How big of a motor is too big for M17? I have a Volvo penta 3.9 now, seems to motor pretty well but it is an old motor. Thinking of going bigger.
Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
.
*From: *casioqv@usermail.com <mailto:casioqv@usermail.com> *Sent: *Thursday, May 21, 2020 4:37 PM *To: *David Grah <mailto:d_b_grah@yahoo.com>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats <mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> *Subject: *Re: M_Boats: Test results - Honda 2.3 and M17
The M15 sails to windward in pretty strong winds with the right sail setup, but 45mph is probably too much. I have made slow progress to windward in wind that was gusting to I think about 30 knots in SF Bay, under a double reefed main and small jib. I wouldn't have been able to keep the prop in the water for motoring with the shaft length on my Yamaha 2hp.
Sincerely,
Tyler
'81 M15 #157 Defiant
----- Original Message -----
From: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>, john@eco-living.net
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 12:54:34 PM
Subject: M_Boats: Test results - Honda 2.3 and M17
Another bit of data concerning motoring that I was reminded of this morning was when trying to motor our Montgomery 15 into strong winds on Lake Powell. The winds were forecast to gust to 45 miles per hour and, based on the amount of spray, the forecast may have been right.
There wasn't a lot of fetch to get waves big so the main concern was the wind. Our Honda 2 horsepower wide open or close to that setting was able to push the boat slowly forward in these conditions but the main issue we faced was steering. If the bow fell off the wind, the rudder did not have enough authority to turn it back into the wind and, when we steered with the motor in addition, our progress forward slowed significantly because the thrust was diverted from forward progress to turning the boat. So instead of motoring into the wind we went downwind to a sheltered spot and stayed there overnight.
I realized later the centerboard was up at the time and I have wondered if having it down would make a difference as far as ability to steer and therefore our ability to motor into a strong wind. Anyway, although we are sticking with our 2 horsepower motor for our Montgomery 15, there is something to be said for a little extra horsepower.
David GrahBishop California
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
How far from centerline of boat is your motor (& mount)? How far does it stand off the transom? I have plenty of clearance with mine. I can measure at some point the off-center and stand-off. cheers, John On 5/23/20 4:54 PM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
I have a 3.5 long shaft Tohatsu and it will not swivel on a stand off mount mounted on the transom. It will either chew into the starboard quarter hull or the rudder. Of course the careful sailor never needs reverse anyway, right?🤔
On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 4:08 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com <mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> wrote:
Thanks for that question, forgot to mention that...
The Honda 2.3 at least cannot rotate 180 degrees if mounted in the transom notch.
It can only be swiveled a rather limited amount as well, for steering/maneuvering.
A stand-off transom mount (fixed or adjustable) is needed to be able to rotate the motor for maneuvering and for reverse (180 deg rotation).
Same would be true for the Tohatsu/Mercury 3.5, as its power-head is a wee bit bulkier than the Honda 2.3.
I haven't seen the Suzuki 2.5 in person so can't say for sure. But my guess is, same situation...it can't have much smaller a power-head than the Honda since it's gotta fit about the same size motor in there. The throttle arm appears to come out on the port side in a similar location.
I would definitely recommend an adjustable mount, because: * you can keep the motor fully clear of the water when raised and tilted, even if heeling strongly to that side. * you can adjust the height (shaft depth in water) when motoring to suit wave conditions, boat loading/trim, etc. (or even a change of motor)
cheers, John
On 5/23/20 9:39 AM, Rob Bultman wrote: > For the smaller 2.3/2.5 HP motors on the M17 with the "outboard notch" in > the transom, can you swivel the motor 180 degrees into the reverse position > or is it pretty much forward only? I'm wondering if the notch will > accommodate the motor as you rotate it and if the drive end and prop will > clear the bottom of the boat. > > Thanks, > Rob > > On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 10:30 PM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com <mailto:scoobscobie@gmail.com>> wrote: > >> For perspective - >> >> My home, SWALLOW, is a full keeled, 8500# 25' on deck sloop and is powered >> by a Honda 8. I've never wanted more power ... just wished for an inboard >> in choppy conditions because of cavitation as SWALLOWING starts to >> hobbyhorse as the seas get big. >> >> >> :: Dave Scobie >> :: M6'8" #650 >> :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com <http://sv-swallow.com> >> :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com <http://m17-375.com> >> :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ <http://www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/> >> >> >> On Thu, May 21, 2020, 7:14 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < >> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com <mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> wrote: >> >>> My M17 came with a Tohatsu SailPro 6 hp extra long shaft that previous >>> owners had bought and barely used. >>> I believe it had a high-thrust prop on it also (usually standard for the >>> SailPro versions). >>> >>> It was way too much motor for that boat. Too heavy, 60+ lbs. hanging off >>> a movable mount (way too big to put in the cutout). >>> Way more thrust/HP than needed. The few times I tried it, putting it in >>> gear at idle would be almost too much thrust for maneuvering in tight >>> spaces. I could see and feel it torquing the transom. >>> I would guesstimate that about 1/3 throttle would hit hull speed. >>> >>> A friend had a Ranger 20 for a few years that came with the same motor. >>> It was overkill for that boat too (Ranger 20 has very close to same >>> displacement, waterline, and ballast as an M17). The one trip I did with >>> him in the San Juans, we had to motor back to Anacortes ramp from James >>> Island on our return day due to lack of wind. Again we never went over >>> about 1/3 throttle and were pretty much at hull speed with that. >>> >>> From my research and other reports here (various past threads on this >>> list) I'd say a Tohatsu/Mercury 3.5 hp is plenty for an M17, for the >>> conservatives types who don't feel comfortable with a Honda 2.3 or >>> Suzuki 2.5. >>> Weighs about 25% more (43 lbs vs 31 lbs). >>> >>> But if you want reverse gear, you will have to go with 4-6hp carcass and >>> up. None of the smaller ones have reverse gear. >>> >>> As soon as you go up to a 4hp from any major brand 4-cycle, you are >>> buying the same carcass as their 6hp with strangled carb to reduce HP to >>> 4, and 60 lbs give or take a few. Or with Honda, it's just a 5hp model >>> but same weight. >>> >>> I don't know how Suzuki quality compares to Honda, but their 2.5hp is >>> about $160 cheaper than the Honda. Same weight. Water cooled, so that >>> maintenance to deal with (vs. Honda air-cooled). Fwd-Neutral shifter >>> instead of Honda's centrifugal clutch. >>> >>> cheers, >>> John >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/21/20 1:44 PM, ejenkins1953@gmail.com <mailto:ejenkins1953@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> How big of a motor is too big for M17? I have a Volvo penta 3.9 now, >>>> seems to motor pretty well but it is an old motor. Thinking of going >>> bigger. >>>> >>>> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for >>>> Windows 10 >>>> >>>> . >>>> >>>> *From: *casioqv@usermail.com <mailto:casioqv@usermail.com> <mailto:casioqv@usermail.com <mailto:casioqv@usermail.com>> >>>> *Sent: *Thursday, May 21, 2020 4:37 PM >>>> *To: *David Grah <mailto:d_b_grah@yahoo.com <mailto:d_b_grah@yahoo.com>>; For and about Montgomery >>>> Sailboats <mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com <mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> >>>> *Subject: *Re: M_Boats: Test results - Honda 2.3 and M17 >>>> >>>> The M15 sails to windward in pretty strong winds with the right sail >>>> setup, but 45mph is probably too much. I have made slow progress to >>>> windward in wind that was gusting to I think about 30 knots in SF Bay, >>>> under a double reefed main and small jib. I wouldn't have been able to >>>> keep the prop in the water for motoring with the shaft length on my >>>> Yamaha 2hp. >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> >>>> Tyler >>>> >>>> '81 M15 #157 Defiant >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> >>>> From: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" >>>> <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com <mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> >>>> >>>> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" >>>> <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com <mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>>, john@eco-living.net <mailto:john@eco-living.net> >>>> >>>> Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 12:54:34 PM >>>> >>>> Subject: M_Boats: Test results - Honda 2.3 and M17 >>>> >>>> Another bit of data concerning motoring that I was reminded of this >>>> morning was when trying to motor our Montgomery 15 into strong winds on >>>> Lake Powell. The winds were forecast to gust to 45 miles per hour and, >>>> based on the amount of spray, the forecast may have been right. >>>> >>>> There wasn't a lot of fetch to get waves big so the main concern was >> the >>>> wind. Our Honda 2 horsepower wide open or close to that setting was >> able >>>> to push the boat slowly forward in these conditions but the main issue >>>> we faced was steering. If the bow fell off the wind, the rudder did not >>>> have enough authority to turn it back into the wind and, when we >> steered >>>> with the motor in addition, our progress forward slowed significantly >>>> because the thrust was diverted from forward progress to turning the >>>> boat. So instead of motoring into the wind we went downwind to a >>>> sheltered spot and stayed there overnight. >>>> >>>> I realized later the centerboard was up at the time and I have wondered >>>> if having it down would make a difference as far as ability to steer >> and >>>> therefore our ability to motor into a strong wind. Anyway, although we >>>> are sticking with our 2 horsepower motor for our Montgomery 15, there >> is >>>> something to be said for a little extra horsepower. >>>> >>>> David GrahBishop California >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design >>> -------------------------------------------- >>> - Eco-Living - >>> Whole Systems Design Services >>> People - Place - Learning - Integration >>> john@eco-living.net <mailto:john@eco-living.net> - 510.982.1334 >>> http://eco-living.net >>> http://sociocracyconsulting.com >>> >>> >>
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net <mailto:john@eco-living.net> - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Another thing I tried at Fern Ridge last year...damping down the motor noise a bit...especially with the notched transom, which does not block it even with the motor lowered. I tried putting a foam throw cushion in front of the transom notch and it cut the motor noise enough to be worth it. Not a lot, but every bit helps... For future use I will probably cut a piece of 2" rigid insulating foam (extruded polystyrene, the blue or green or pink stuff, building insulation) to slide onto the notch and stick up a bit above it when motoring. cheers, John On 5/23/20 9:39 AM, Rob Bultman wrote:
For the smaller 2.3/2.5 HP motors on the M17 with the "outboard notch" in the transom, can you swivel the motor 180 degrees into the reverse position or is it pretty much forward only? I'm wondering if the notch will accommodate the motor as you rotate it and if the drive end and prop will clear the bottom of the boat.
Thanks, Rob
On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 10:30 PM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
For perspective -
My home, SWALLOW, is a full keeled, 8500# 25' on deck sloop and is powered by a Honda 8. I've never wanted more power ... just wished for an inboard in choppy conditions because of cavitation as SWALLOWING starts to hobbyhorse as the seas get big.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Thu, May 21, 2020, 7:14 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
My M17 came with a Tohatsu SailPro 6 hp extra long shaft that previous owners had bought and barely used. I believe it had a high-thrust prop on it also (usually standard for the SailPro versions).
It was way too much motor for that boat. Too heavy, 60+ lbs. hanging off a movable mount (way too big to put in the cutout). Way more thrust/HP than needed. The few times I tried it, putting it in gear at idle would be almost too much thrust for maneuvering in tight spaces. I could see and feel it torquing the transom. I would guesstimate that about 1/3 throttle would hit hull speed.
A friend had a Ranger 20 for a few years that came with the same motor. It was overkill for that boat too (Ranger 20 has very close to same displacement, waterline, and ballast as an M17). The one trip I did with him in the San Juans, we had to motor back to Anacortes ramp from James Island on our return day due to lack of wind. Again we never went over about 1/3 throttle and were pretty much at hull speed with that.
From my research and other reports here (various past threads on this list) I'd say a Tohatsu/Mercury 3.5 hp is plenty for an M17, for the conservatives types who don't feel comfortable with a Honda 2.3 or Suzuki 2.5. Weighs about 25% more (43 lbs vs 31 lbs).
But if you want reverse gear, you will have to go with 4-6hp carcass and up. None of the smaller ones have reverse gear.
As soon as you go up to a 4hp from any major brand 4-cycle, you are buying the same carcass as their 6hp with strangled carb to reduce HP to 4, and 60 lbs give or take a few. Or with Honda, it's just a 5hp model but same weight.
I don't know how Suzuki quality compares to Honda, but their 2.5hp is about $160 cheaper than the Honda. Same weight. Water cooled, so that maintenance to deal with (vs. Honda air-cooled). Fwd-Neutral shifter instead of Honda's centrifugal clutch.
cheers, John
On 5/21/20 1:44 PM, ejenkins1953@gmail.com wrote:
How big of a motor is too big for M17? I have a Volvo penta 3.9 now, seems to motor pretty well but it is an old motor. Thinking of going bigger.
Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
.
*From: *casioqv@usermail.com <mailto:casioqv@usermail.com> *Sent: *Thursday, May 21, 2020 4:37 PM *To: *David Grah <mailto:d_b_grah@yahoo.com>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats <mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> *Subject: *Re: M_Boats: Test results - Honda 2.3 and M17
The M15 sails to windward in pretty strong winds with the right sail setup, but 45mph is probably too much. I have made slow progress to windward in wind that was gusting to I think about 30 knots in SF Bay, under a double reefed main and small jib. I wouldn't have been able to keep the prop in the water for motoring with the shaft length on my Yamaha 2hp.
Sincerely,
Tyler
'81 M15 #157 Defiant
----- Original Message -----
From: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>, john@eco-living.net
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 12:54:34 PM
Subject: M_Boats: Test results - Honda 2.3 and M17
Another bit of data concerning motoring that I was reminded of this morning was when trying to motor our Montgomery 15 into strong winds on Lake Powell. The winds were forecast to gust to 45 miles per hour and, based on the amount of spray, the forecast may have been right.
There wasn't a lot of fetch to get waves big so the main concern was the wind. Our Honda 2 horsepower wide open or close to that setting was able to push the boat slowly forward in these conditions but the main issue we faced was steering. If the bow fell off the wind, the rudder did not have enough authority to turn it back into the wind and, when we steered with the motor in addition, our progress forward slowed significantly because the thrust was diverted from forward progress to turning the boat. So instead of motoring into the wind we went downwind to a sheltered spot and stayed there overnight.
I realized later the centerboard was up at the time and I have wondered if having it down would make a difference as far as ability to steer and therefore our ability to motor into a strong wind. Anyway, although we are sticking with our 2 horsepower motor for our Montgomery 15, there is something to be said for a little extra horsepower.
David GrahBishop California
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
participants (6)
-
Bill Dixon -
Dave Scobie -
ejenkins1953＠gmail.com -
John Schinnerer -
Rob Bultman -
Thomas Buzzi