yep, not releasing the sail sheets would hold many boats MUCH larger than the M15 in a knockdown orientation. boats where the sheets are still cleated and the sails in the water will likely only come up after the rig comes off the boat, or the next breaking wave rolls the boat back 'up' (and usually removing the rig), or the crew lets go or cuts the sheets. the latter is the best solution ;-) when going to into the wind usually weather helm or a rudder stall will round the boat up before she goes over ... except in a sudden and 'large' gust. most knock downs occur when a boat is off the weather as it is much harder to get the air out of the sails and the boat is more likely to be rolled by a breaking wave. another thing to remember is that the crew in the M15 makes up a high percentage of the boat's weight. i weight just over 25% of the M15's 'dry boat weight'. i can really change an M15's orientation on the water by where i sit/stand. now think how two guys my weight can adjust the M15's orientation! i'm much more nervous in high wind situation when off the wind v. going to weather. at times i've doused the main and just gone off the wind with the headsail ... much easier to dump all the wind in the jib than the main when off the wind. NOTE: this last comment is only for going off the wind ... going to weather i have a completely different opinion on how to sail the M15 in high wind. my other practice is to always have the main sheet in my hand. this means i can loose the sheet quickly (ie, i don't have to find it in the cockpit footwell. the other practice is having a knife on my body to cut a snagged sheet, line, whatever. :: Dave Scobie --- On Mon, 4/1/13, Chris Smith <chris.r.smith@gmail.com> wrote:
You know, now thinking back I don't think she went full turtle. I can recall 2 times that I had a full knockdown (though I think there were 3 times..) and both times the mast was in the water and the boat was not righting. The first time iirc, we were travelling upwind at quite a clip, and I was not able to let out enough sail fast enough, or round out to prevent the sail from going under. The second time I was travelling downwind with the main almost full out to starbird. The wind shifted slightly and, due to the unbalanced weight in the cockpit (I think), the boat went over to port. Both times I was able to swim around to the bottom of the boat and grab the keel and pull down far enough that another person could hang on it while i pushed up on the mast and sail, trying to get water out of it. I don't think I had the presence of mind, in either case, to uncleat the sail. I think I was running main only on both of these occasions, as well.
I attributed the boat not going full turtle to some quick thinking and action on my part, but perhaps I'm overestimating myself and underestimating Lyle and Jerry's design and build!
I'm happy to reminisce about my sailing fails, having learned important lessons from each! There was one time I got caught in a tree...
On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 9:30 AM, Tom Smith <openboatt@gmail.com> wrote:
I've never heard of an M15 going turtle either. I guess there's a first for everything, but like Dave, I'd like to know more. T
On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 7:26 AM, W David Scobie <wdscobie@yahoo.com> wrote:
Chris:
when you write turtled do you mean your boat was completely inverted and stayed that way?
or do you mean she mast in the water (more than 90 degrees) in a full knockdown?
where your sail sheets (main and jib) loose or still cleated?
just curious as your writing is the first i've read of such a thing happening.
:: Dave Scobie
--- On Mon, 4/1/13, Chris Smith <chris.r.smith@gmail.com> wrote:
Just to confirm what Daniel was saying, I've turtled my M15 a couple times for various reasons. Luckily I had a couple people with me, each time, so I had them hang on the keel while I tried to empty the sail of water. The boat popped up quickly with a surprisingly small amount of water in the cabin, but I'd hesitate to call the M15 'self righting'.
-- Chris
Dear David, Being as how I am new to owning a M-15, I find your experience highly instructive. Would you please expand on your opinion of how to sail to weather in high winds. Best regards, David Gilroy, new owner of Connie's m-15 Sent from my iPhone On Apr 1, 2013, at 12:48 PM, W David Scobie <wdscobie@yahoo.com> wrote:
yep, not releasing the sail sheets would hold many boats MUCH larger than the M15 in a knockdown orientation. boats where the sheets are still cleated and the sails in the water will likely only come up after the rig comes off the boat, or the next breaking wave rolls the boat back 'up' (and usually removing the rig), or the crew lets go or cuts the sheets. the latter is the best solution ;-)
when going to into the wind usually weather helm or a rudder stall will round the boat up before she goes over ... except in a sudden and 'large' gust.
most knock downs occur when a boat is off the weather as it is much harder to get the air out of the sails and the boat is more likely to be rolled by a breaking wave.
another thing to remember is that the crew in the M15 makes up a high percentage of the boat's weight. i weight just over 25% of the M15's 'dry boat weight'. i can really change an M15's orientation on the water by where i sit/stand. now think how two guys my weight can adjust the M15's orientation!
i'm much more nervous in high wind situation when off the wind v. going to weather. at times i've doused the main and just gone off the wind with the headsail ... much easier to dump all the wind in the jib than the main when off the wind. NOTE: this last comment is only for going off the wind ... going to weather i have a completely different opinion on how to sail the M15 in high wind.
my other practice is to always have the main sheet in my hand. this means i can loose the sheet quickly (ie, i don't have to find it in the cockpit footwell.
the other practice is having a knife on my body to cut a snagged sheet, line, whatever.
:: Dave Scobie
--- On Mon, 4/1/13, Chris Smith <chris.r.smith@gmail.com> wrote:
You know, now thinking back I don't think she went full turtle. I can recall 2 times that I had a full knockdown (though I think there were 3 times..) and both times the mast was in the water and the boat was not righting. The first time iirc, we were travelling upwind at quite a clip, and I was not able to let out enough sail fast enough, or round out to prevent the sail from going under. The second time I was travelling downwind with the main almost full out to starbird. The wind shifted slightly and, due to the unbalanced weight in the cockpit (I think), the boat went over to port. Both times I was able to swim around to the bottom of the boat and grab the keel and pull down far enough that another person could hang on it while i pushed up on the mast and sail, trying to get water out of it. I don't think I had the presence of mind, in either case, to uncleat the sail. I think I was running main only on both of these occasions, as well.
I attributed the boat not going full turtle to some quick thinking and action on my part, but perhaps I'm overestimating myself and underestimating Lyle and Jerry's design and build!
I'm happy to reminisce about my sailing fails, having learned important lessons from each! There was one time I got caught in a tree...
On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 9:30 AM, Tom Smith <openboatt@gmail.com> wrote:
I've never heard of an M15 going turtle either. I guess there's a first for everything, but like Dave, I'd like to know more. T
On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 7:26 AM, W David Scobie <wdscobie@yahoo.com> wrote:
Chris:
when you write turtled do you mean your boat was completely inverted and stayed that way?
or do you mean she mast in the water (more than 90 degrees) in a full knockdown?
where your sail sheets (main and jib) loose or still cleated?
just curious as your writing is the first i've read of such a thing happening.
:: Dave Scobie
--- On Mon, 4/1/13, Chris Smith <chris.r.smith@gmail.com> wrote:
Just to confirm what Daniel was saying, I've turtled my M15 a couple times for various reasons. Luckily I had a couple people with me, each time, so I had them hang on the keel while I tried to empty the sail of water. The boat popped up quickly with a surprisingly small amount of water in the cabin, but I'd hesitate to call the M15 'self righting'.
-- Chris
Hey, I'll bite. I'm not David, who has more experience, but I do sail to windward all the time in fairly high winds, and got some very good advice from international expert Howard Rice. The M15 gets its drive from the main. So, reef the main early. If you don't know how to heave to, it is easy to learn that maneuver, and you can easily reef under way. I have 2 reef points. Put the first reef in around 12-14 knots. Put the second in around 15-17 knots. Make sure to have at least one board in the companionway in case you get wet. The M15 gets a fair amount of weather helm. It is really reduced with the reefing. Now, when the wind gets up, absolutely sheet the jib down hard. It seems counter intuitive that doing that helps. After all, a filled jib reduces weather helm. But it turns out that doing that helps depower, and it also makes the slot so that you backwind the main a touch, which also helps depower. Trust me on this. Cleat the jib down hard. This was great advice from Howard, and I have tested it. It helps. Wear gloves. Stay warm. Another thing that can help believe it or not is ear plugs. When it gets nutty, some of the intensity factor is the noise. It is amazing how things calm down if you reduce the sound! Don't forget that you can heave to and take a break. Finally, you can drop the jib. Do that last. The boat just can't go to windward well without it. I do not have a storm jib. And, I would not want to go forward to change it anyway in a blow. Hope this helps. Daniel M15 #208 Kestrel On 4/1/2013 10:19 AM, David Gilroy wrote:
Dear David,
Being as how I am new to owning a M-15, I find your experience highly instructive. Would you please expand on your opinion of how to sail to weather in high winds.
Best regards, David Gilroy, new owner of Connie's m-15
Sent from my iPhone
Thanks very much, Daniel. David(the other David) On Apr 1, 2013, at 5:27 PM, Daniel Rich wrote:
Hey, I'll bite. I'm not David, who has more experience, but I do sail to windward all the time in fairly high winds, and got some very good advice from international expert Howard Rice.
The M15 gets its drive from the main. So, reef the main early. If you don't know how to heave to, it is easy to learn that maneuver, and you can easily reef under way. I have 2 reef points. Put the first reef in around 12-14 knots. Put the second in around 15-17 knots. Make sure to have at least one board in the companionway in case you get wet.
The M15 gets a fair amount of weather helm. It is really reduced with the reefing. Now, when the wind gets up, absolutely sheet the jib down hard. It seems counter intuitive that doing that helps. After all, a filled jib reduces weather helm. But it turns out that doing that helps depower, and it also makes the slot so that you backwind the main a touch, which also helps depower. Trust me on this. Cleat the jib down hard. This was great advice from Howard, and I have tested it. It helps.
Wear gloves. Stay warm. Another thing that can help believe it or not is ear plugs. When it gets nutty, some of the intensity factor is the noise. It is amazing how things calm down if you reduce the sound!
Don't forget that you can heave to and take a break.
Finally, you can drop the jib. Do that last. The boat just can't go to windward well without it. I do not have a storm jib. And, I would not want to go forward to change it anyway in a blow.
Hope this helps.
Daniel M15 #208 Kestrel
On 4/1/2013 10:19 AM, David Gilroy wrote:
Dear David,
Being as how I am new to owning a M-15, I find your experience highly instructive. Would you please expand on your opinion of how to sail to weather in high winds.
Best regards, David Gilroy, new owner of Connie's m-15
Sent from my iPhone
One last thing… When beating to windward in big wind try to "feather" a little bit into the wind. You can luff just a hair, and fall off. That also helps with control. Daniel On Apr 1, 2013, at 5:14 PM, David Gilroy <dbakergilroy@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Thanks very much, Daniel.
David(the other David)
On Apr 1, 2013, at 5:27 PM, Daniel Rich wrote:
Hey, I'll bite. I'm not David, who has more experience, but I do sail to windward all the time in fairly high winds, and got some very good advice from international expert Howard Rice.
The M15 gets its drive from the main. So, reef the main early. If you don't know how to heave to, it is easy to learn that maneuver, and you can easily reef under way. I have 2 reef points. Put the first reef in around 12-14 knots. Put the second in around 15-17 knots. Make sure to have at least one board in the companionway in case you get wet.
The M15 gets a fair amount of weather helm. It is really reduced with the reefing. Now, when the wind gets up, absolutely sheet the jib down hard. It seems counter intuitive that doing that helps. After all, a filled jib reduces weather helm. But it turns out that doing that helps depower, and it also makes the slot so that you backwind the main a touch, which also helps depower. Trust me on this. Cleat the jib down hard. This was great advice from Howard, and I have tested it. It helps.
Wear gloves. Stay warm. Another thing that can help believe it or not is ear plugs. When it gets nutty, some of the intensity factor is the noise. It is amazing how things calm down if you reduce the sound!
Don't forget that you can heave to and take a break.
Finally, you can drop the jib. Do that last. The boat just can't go to windward well without it. I do not have a storm jib. And, I would not want to go forward to change it anyway in a blow.
Hope this helps.
Daniel M15 #208 Kestrel
On 4/1/2013 10:19 AM, David Gilroy wrote:
Dear David,
Being as how I am new to owning a M-15, I find your experience highly instructive. Would you please expand on your opinion of how to sail to weather in high winds.
Best regards, David Gilroy, new owner of Connie's m-15
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel covered everything I would have recommended. The 'feathering' by pointing a little high based on how the sails are set is a could 'trick' as you don't loosen the main sheet (remember, the main sheet tension is acting as the backstay on the M15's three stay rig). obviously this move doesn't work when going off the wind. was discussed about sheeting the jib tight. yes, this is a good high-wind move as it flattens the sail. my M15 has cabin top jib sheet blocks on tracks. this allowed me to adjust the sheet angle as appropriate to the wind and direction i was sailing to the wind. do the same with the main by using the outhaul to flatten the sail's foot. when you reef confirm that the reef hardware on the boom and mast set the shortened sail with a flat foot. if the hardware sets the reef for a 'baggy' foot you are catching wind and healing the boat. another important move is to keep the weight forward. use a tiller extender and when sailing alone sit right at the cabin/cockpit bulkhead. with a crew have her/him sit at the bulkhead and you sit right next to her/him. as stated in another's post the M15 will really scoot along in higher winds with two people on-board. i would be hesitant to sail the M15 in 'sporting conditions' with three adults in the boat ... especially in the cockpit. for casual light wind 'just for fun' three is crowded. remember ... three average US adults would weigh 540# ... this is almost 70% the M15's dry weight. get a couple of folks on the low side in a gust and 'watch the excitement'. if i was caught out in the M15 in a blow with three folks i'd make one go into the cabin and lay on the high side of the v-berth and head quickly for the marina. :: Dave Scobie --- On Mon, 4/1/13, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
One last thing…
When beating to windward in big wind try to "feather" a little bit into the wind. You can luff just a hair, and fall off. That also helps with control.
Daniel On Apr 1, 2013, at 5:14 PM, David Gilroy <dbakergilroy@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Thanks very much, Daniel.
David(the other David)
On Apr 1, 2013, at 5:27 PM, Daniel Rich wrote:
Hey, I'll bite. I'm not David, who has more experience, but I do sail to windward all the time in fairly high winds, and got some very good advice from international expert Howard Rice.
The M15 gets its drive from the main. So, reef the main early. If you don't know how to heave to, it is easy to learn that maneuver, and you can easily reef under way. I have 2 reef points. Put the first reef in around 12-14 knots. Put the second in around 15-17 knots. Make sure to have at least one board in the companionway in case you get wet.
The M15 gets a fair amount of weather helm. It is really reduced with the reefing. Now, when the wind gets up, absolutely sheet the jib down hard. It seems counter intuitive that doing that helps. After all, a filled jib reduces weather helm. But it turns out that doing that helps depower, and it also makes the slot so that you backwind the main a touch, which also helps depower. Trust me on this. Cleat the jib down hard. This was great advice from Howard, and I have tested it. It helps.
Wear gloves. Stay warm. Another thing that can help believe it or not is ear plugs. When it gets nutty, some of the intensity factor is the noise. It is amazing how things calm down if you reduce the sound!
Don't forget that you can heave to and take a break.
Finally, you can drop the jib. Do that last. The boat just can't go to windward well without it. I do not have a storm jib. And, I would not want to go forward to change it anyway in a blow.
Hope this helps.
Daniel M15 #208 Kestrel
On 4/1/2013 10:19 AM, David Gilroy wrote:
Dear David,
Being as how I am new to owning a M-15, I find your experience highly instructive. Would you please expand on your opinion of how to sail to weather in high winds.
Best regards, David Gilroy, new owner of Connie's m-15
The earplug thing is quite insightful. The noise factor definitely affects how you react to everything else. Good idea. On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey, I'll bite. I'm not David, who has more experience, but I do sail to windward all the time in fairly high winds, and got some very good advice from international expert Howard Rice.
The M15 gets its drive from the main. So, reef the main early. If you don't know how to heave to, it is easy to learn that maneuver, and you can easily reef under way. I have 2 reef points. Put the first reef in around 12-14 knots. Put the second in around 15-17 knots. Make sure to have at least one board in the companionway in case you get wet.
The M15 gets a fair amount of weather helm. It is really reduced with the reefing. Now, when the wind gets up, absolutely sheet the jib down hard. It seems counter intuitive that doing that helps. After all, a filled jib reduces weather helm. But it turns out that doing that helps depower, and it also makes the slot so that you backwind the main a touch, which also helps depower. Trust me on this. Cleat the jib down hard. This was great advice from Howard, and I have tested it. It helps.
Wear gloves. Stay warm. Another thing that can help believe it or not is ear plugs. When it gets nutty, some of the intensity factor is the noise. It is amazing how things calm down if you reduce the sound!
Don't forget that you can heave to and take a break.
Finally, you can drop the jib. Do that last. The boat just can't go to windward well without it. I do not have a storm jib. And, I would not want to go forward to change it anyway in a blow.
Hope this helps.
Daniel M15 #208 Kestrel
On 4/1/2013 10:19 AM, David Gilroy wrote:
Dear David,
Being as how I am new to owning a M-15, I find your experience highly instructive. Would you please expand on your opinion of how to sail to weather in high winds.
Best regards, David Gilroy, new owner of Connie's m-15
Sent from my iPhone
The M_15 is better in heavy air, if you reef early. Here's Dan Phy sailing in 20 knots+gusting. Tie in the reef before you leave the dock. The M_15 won't Turtle. Bob www.montgomeryboats.com (949) 489-8227
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 10:07:09 -0500 From: thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: turtled M15?
The earplug thing is quite insightful. The noise factor definitely affects how you react to everything else. Good idea.
On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey, I'll bite. I'm not David, who has more experience, but I do sail to windward all the time in fairly high winds, and got some very good advice from international expert Howard Rice.
The M15 gets its drive from the main. So, reef the main early. If you don't know how to heave to, it is easy to learn that maneuver, and you can easily reef under way. I have 2 reef points. Put the first reef in around 12-14 knots. Put the second in around 15-17 knots. Make sure to have at least one board in the companionway in case you get wet.
The M15 gets a fair amount of weather helm. It is really reduced with the reefing. Now, when the wind gets up, absolutely sheet the jib down hard. It seems counter intuitive that doing that helps. After all, a filled jib reduces weather helm. But it turns out that doing that helps depower, and it also makes the slot so that you backwind the main a touch, which also helps depower. Trust me on this. Cleat the jib down hard. This was great advice from Howard, and I have tested it. It helps.
Wear gloves. Stay warm. Another thing that can help believe it or not is ear plugs. When it gets nutty, some of the intensity factor is the noise. It is amazing how things calm down if you reduce the sound!
Don't forget that you can heave to and take a break.
Finally, you can drop the jib. Do that last. The boat just can't go to windward well without it. I do not have a storm jib. And, I would not want to go forward to change it anyway in a blow.
Hope this helps.
Daniel M15 #208 Kestrel
On 4/1/2013 10:19 AM, David Gilroy wrote:
Dear David,
Being as how I am new to owning a M-15, I find your experience highly instructive. Would you please expand on your opinion of how to sail to weather in high winds.
Best regards, David Gilroy, new owner of Connie's m-15
Sent from my iPhone
Fortunately for me, both knockdowns were in relatively small lakes. The lakes are fairly well tree ringed, and get gusty in parts. I think both knockdowns had at least 3 passengers (4 total people), and I've found that trying to keep the mainsheet untangled from that many peoples legs between the cleat at the front of the cockpit and my hand at the back of the cockpit can be a challenge. I've developed a good schpeil for new passengers because of the difficulties I've had. I'm happy to report no knockdowns in 5 years! ;) On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 11:48 AM, W David Scobie <wdscobie@yahoo.com> wrote:
yep, not releasing the sail sheets would hold many boats MUCH larger than the M15 in a knockdown orientation. boats where the sheets are still cleated and the sails in the water will likely only come up after the rig comes off the boat, or the next breaking wave rolls the boat back 'up' (and usually removing the rig), or the crew lets go or cuts the sheets. the latter is the best solution ;-)
when going to into the wind usually weather helm or a rudder stall will round the boat up before she goes over ... except in a sudden and 'large' gust.
most knock downs occur when a boat is off the weather as it is much harder to get the air out of the sails and the boat is more likely to be rolled by a breaking wave.
another thing to remember is that the crew in the M15 makes up a high percentage of the boat's weight. i weight just over 25% of the M15's 'dry boat weight'. i can really change an M15's orientation on the water by where i sit/stand. now think how two guys my weight can adjust the M15's orientation!
i'm much more nervous in high wind situation when off the wind v. going to weather. at times i've doused the main and just gone off the wind with the headsail ... much easier to dump all the wind in the jib than the main when off the wind. NOTE: this last comment is only for going off the wind ... going to weather i have a completely different opinion on how to sail the M15 in high wind.
my other practice is to always have the main sheet in my hand. this means i can loose the sheet quickly (ie, i don't have to find it in the cockpit footwell.
the other practice is having a knife on my body to cut a snagged sheet, line, whatever.
:: Dave Scobie
--- On Mon, 4/1/13, Chris Smith <chris.r.smith@gmail.com> wrote:
You know, now thinking back I don't think she went full turtle. I can recall 2 times that I had a full knockdown (though I think there were 3 times..) and both times the mast was in the water and the boat was not righting. The first time iirc, we were travelling upwind at quite a clip, and I was not able to let out enough sail fast enough, or round out to prevent the sail from going under. The second time I was travelling downwind with the main almost full out to starbird. The wind shifted slightly and, due to the unbalanced weight in the cockpit (I think), the boat went over to port. Both times I was able to swim around to the bottom of the boat and grab the keel and pull down far enough that another person could hang on it while i pushed up on the mast and sail, trying to get water out of it. I don't think I had the presence of mind, in either case, to uncleat the sail. I think I was running main only on both of these occasions, as well.
I attributed the boat not going full turtle to some quick thinking and action on my part, but perhaps I'm overestimating myself and underestimating Lyle and Jerry's design and build!
I'm happy to reminisce about my sailing fails, having learned important lessons from each! There was one time I got caught in a tree...
On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 9:30 AM, Tom Smith <openboatt@gmail.com> wrote:
I've never heard of an M15 going turtle either. I guess there's a first for everything, but like Dave, I'd like to know more. T
On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 7:26 AM, W David Scobie <wdscobie@yahoo.com> wrote:
Chris:
when you write turtled do you mean your boat was completely inverted and stayed that way?
or do you mean she mast in the water (more than 90 degrees) in a full knockdown?
where your sail sheets (main and jib) loose or still cleated?
just curious as your writing is the first i've read of such a thing happening.
:: Dave Scobie
--- On Mon, 4/1/13, Chris Smith <chris.r.smith@gmail.com> wrote:
Just to confirm what Daniel was saying, I've turtled my M15 a couple times for various reasons. Luckily I had a couple people with me, each time, so I had them hang on the keel while I tried to empty the sail of water. The boat popped up quickly with a surprisingly small amount of water in the cabin, but I'd hesitate to call the M15 'self righting'.
-- Chris
-- Chris
Yet to put more than a Crew of two with me on my 15. Maybe I'll try it this season. Comments from others about four adults in the cockpit? Space? Weight? Agility of all that ballast? Sent from my iPhone On Apr 1, 2013, at 12:31 PM, Chris Smith <chris.r.smith@gmail.com> wrote:
Fortunately for me, both knockdowns were in relatively small lakes. The lakes are fairly well tree ringed, and get gusty in parts. I think both knockdowns had at least 3 passengers (4 total people), and I've found that trying to keep the mainsheet untangled from that many peoples legs between the cleat at the front of the cockpit and my hand at the back of the cockpit can be a challenge.
I've developed a good schpeil for new passengers because of the difficulties I've had. I'm happy to report no knockdowns in 5 years! ;)
On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 11:48 AM, W David Scobie <wdscobie@yahoo.com> wrote:
yep, not releasing the sail sheets would hold many boats MUCH larger than the M15 in a knockdown orientation. boats where the sheets are still cleated and the sails in the water will likely only come up after the rig comes off the boat, or the next breaking wave rolls the boat back 'up' (and usually removing the rig), or the crew lets go or cuts the sheets. the latter is the best solution ;-)
when going to into the wind usually weather helm or a rudder stall will round the boat up before she goes over ... except in a sudden and 'large' gust.
most knock downs occur when a boat is off the weather as it is much harder to get the air out of the sails and the boat is more likely to be rolled by a breaking wave.
another thing to remember is that the crew in the M15 makes up a high percentage of the boat's weight. i weight just over 25% of the M15's 'dry boat weight'. i can really change an M15's orientation on the water by where i sit/stand. now think how two guys my weight can adjust the M15's orientation!
i'm much more nervous in high wind situation when off the wind v. going to weather. at times i've doused the main and just gone off the wind with the headsail ... much easier to dump all the wind in the jib than the main when off the wind. NOTE: this last comment is only for going off the wind ... going to weather i have a completely different opinion on how to sail the M15 in high wind.
my other practice is to always have the main sheet in my hand. this means i can loose the sheet quickly (ie, i don't have to find it in the cockpit footwell.
the other practice is having a knife on my body to cut a snagged sheet, line, whatever.
:: Dave Scobie
--- On Mon, 4/1/13, Chris Smith <chris.r.smith@gmail.com> wrote:
You know, now thinking back I don't think she went full turtle. I can recall 2 times that I had a full knockdown (though I think there were 3 times..) and both times the mast was in the water and the boat was not righting. The first time iirc, we were travelling upwind at quite a clip, and I was not able to let out enough sail fast enough, or round out to prevent the sail from going under. The second time I was travelling downwind with the main almost full out to starbird. The wind shifted slightly and, due to the unbalanced weight in the cockpit (I think), the boat went over to port. Both times I was able to swim around to the bottom of the boat and grab the keel and pull down far enough that another person could hang on it while i pushed up on the mast and sail, trying to get water out of it. I don't think I had the presence of mind, in either case, to uncleat the sail. I think I was running main only on both of these occasions, as well.
I attributed the boat not going full turtle to some quick thinking and action on my part, but perhaps I'm overestimating myself and underestimating Lyle and Jerry's design and build!
I'm happy to reminisce about my sailing fails, having learned important lessons from each! There was one time I got caught in a tree...
On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 9:30 AM, Tom Smith <openboatt@gmail.com> wrote:
I've never heard of an M15 going turtle either. I guess there's a first for everything, but like Dave, I'd like to know more. T
On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 7:26 AM, W David Scobie <wdscobie@yahoo.com> wrote:
Chris:
when you write turtled do you mean your boat was completely inverted and stayed that way?
or do you mean she mast in the water (more than 90 degrees) in a full knockdown?
where your sail sheets (main and jib) loose or still cleated?
just curious as your writing is the first i've read of such a thing happening.
:: Dave Scobie
--- On Mon, 4/1/13, Chris Smith <chris.r.smith@gmail.com> wrote:
Just to confirm what Daniel was saying, I've turtled my M15 a couple times for various reasons. Luckily I had a couple people with me, each time, so I had them hang on the keel while I tried to empty the sail of water. The boat popped up quickly with a surprisingly small amount of water in the cabin, but I'd hesitate to call the M15 'self righting'.
-- Chris
-- Chris
Seems that whenever there are three or more aboard my M-15, one or two are always sitting or stepping on a line, and in the way when a sheet needs to be trimmed. I have finally learned to emphasize that my boat is small whenever I talk to people who might want to go sailing, even have a couple of overwieght relatives with whom I try to avoid such conversations. Steve M-15 # 335 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martha Ekwurtzel" <marthaekwurtzel@aol.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 10:45 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: turtled M15? Yet to put more than a Crew of two with me on my 15. Maybe I'll try it this season. Comments from others about four adults in the cockpit? Space? Weight? Agility of all that ballast? Sent from my iPhone On Apr 1, 2013, at 12:31 PM, Chris Smith <chris.r.smith@gmail.com> wrote:
Fortunately for me, both knockdowns were in relatively small lakes. The lakes are fairly well tree ringed, and get gusty in parts. I think both knockdowns had at least 3 passengers (4 total people), and I've found that trying to keep the mainsheet untangled from that many peoples legs between the cleat at the front of the cockpit and my hand at the back of the cockpit can be a challenge.
I've developed a good schpeil for new passengers because of the difficulties I've had. I'm happy to report no knockdowns in 5 years! ;)
On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 11:48 AM, W David Scobie <wdscobie@yahoo.com> wrote:
yep, not releasing the sail sheets would hold many boats MUCH larger than the M15 in a knockdown orientation. boats where the sheets are still cleated and the sails in the water will likely only come up after the rig comes off the boat, or the next breaking wave rolls the boat back 'up' (and usually removing the rig), or the crew lets go or cuts the sheets. the latter is the best solution ;-)
when going to into the wind usually weather helm or a rudder stall will round the boat up before she goes over ... except in a sudden and 'large' gust.
most knock downs occur when a boat is off the weather as it is much harder to get the air out of the sails and the boat is more likely to be rolled by a breaking wave.
another thing to remember is that the crew in the M15 makes up a high percentage of the boat's weight. i weight just over 25% of the M15's 'dry boat weight'. i can really change an M15's orientation on the water by where i sit/stand. now think how two guys my weight can adjust the M15's orientation!
i'm much more nervous in high wind situation when off the wind v. going to weather. at times i've doused the main and just gone off the wind with the headsail ... much easier to dump all the wind in the jib than the main when off the wind. NOTE: this last comment is only for going off the wind ... going to weather i have a completely different opinion on how to sail the M15 in high wind.
my other practice is to always have the main sheet in my hand. this means i can loose the sheet quickly (ie, i don't have to find it in the cockpit footwell.
the other practice is having a knife on my body to cut a snagged sheet, line, whatever.
:: Dave Scobie
--- On Mon, 4/1/13, Chris Smith <chris.r.smith@gmail.com> wrote:
You know, now thinking back I don't think she went full turtle. I can recall 2 times that I had a full knockdown (though I think there were 3 times..) and both times the mast was in the water and the boat was not righting. The first time iirc, we were travelling upwind at quite a clip, and I was not able to let out enough sail fast enough, or round out to prevent the sail from going under. The second time I was travelling downwind with the main almost full out to starbird. The wind shifted slightly and, due to the unbalanced weight in the cockpit (I think), the boat went over to port. Both times I was able to swim around to the bottom of the boat and grab the keel and pull down far enough that another person could hang on it while i pushed up on the mast and sail, trying to get water out of it. I don't think I had the presence of mind, in either case, to uncleat the sail. I think I was running main only on both of these occasions, as well.
I attributed the boat not going full turtle to some quick thinking and action on my part, but perhaps I'm overestimating myself and underestimating Lyle and Jerry's design and build!
I'm happy to reminisce about my sailing fails, having learned important lessons from each! There was one time I got caught in a tree...
On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 9:30 AM, Tom Smith <openboatt@gmail.com> wrote:
I've never heard of an M15 going turtle either. I guess there's a first for everything, but like Dave, I'd like to know more. T
On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 7:26 AM, W David Scobie <wdscobie@yahoo.com> wrote:
Chris:
when you write turtled do you mean your boat was completely inverted and stayed that way?
or do you mean she mast in the water (more than 90 degrees) in a full knockdown?
where your sail sheets (main and jib) loose or still cleated?
just curious as your writing is the first i've read of such a thing happening.
:: Dave Scobie
--- On Mon, 4/1/13, Chris Smith <chris.r.smith@gmail.com> wrote:
Just to confirm what Daniel was saying, I've turtled my M15 a couple times for various reasons. Luckily I had a couple people with me, each time, so I had them hang on the keel while I tried to empty the sail of water. The boat popped up quickly with a surprisingly small amount of water in the cabin, but I'd hesitate to call the M15 'self righting'.
-- Chris
-- Chris
----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6218 - Release Date: 04/01/13
On 4/1/2013 4:49 PM, stevetrapp wrote:
Seems that whenever there are three or more aboard my M-15, one or two are always sitting or stepping on a line, and in the way when a sheet needs to be trimmed. I have finally learned to emphasize that my boat is small whenever I talk to people who might want to go sailing, even have a couple of overwieght relatives with whom I try to avoid such conversations. Steve M-15 # 335
----- Original Message ----- From: "Martha Ekwurtzel"<marthaekwurtzel@aol.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats"<montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats"<montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 10:45 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: turtled M15?
Yet to put more than a Crew of two with me on my 15. Maybe I'll try it this season. Comments from others about four adults in the cockpit? Space? Weight? Agility of all that ballast?
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 1, 2013, at 12:31 PM, Chris Smith<chris.r.smith@gmail.com> wrote:
Fortunately for me, both knockdowns were in relatively small lakes. The lakes are fairly well tree ringed, and get gusty in parts. I think both knockdowns had at least 3 passengers (4 total people), and I've found that trying to keep the mainsheet untangled from that many peoples legs between the cleat at the front of the cockpit and my hand at the back of the cockpit can be a challenge.
I've developed a good schpeil for new passengers because of the difficulties I've had. I'm happy to report no knockdowns in 5 years! ;)
On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 11:48 AM, W David Scobie<wdscobie@yahoo.com> wrote:
yep, not releasing the sail sheets would hold many boats MUCH larger than the M15 in a knockdown orientation. boats where the sheets are still cleated and the sails in the water will likely only come up after the rig comes off the boat, or the next breaking wave rolls the boat back 'up' (and usually removing the rig), or the crew lets go or cuts the sheets. the latter is the best solution ;-)
when going to into the wind usually weather helm or a rudder stall will round the boat up before she goes over ... except in a sudden and 'large' gust.
most knock downs occur when a boat is off the weather as it is much harder to get the air out of the sails and the boat is more likely to be rolled by a breaking wave.
another thing to remember is that the crew in the M15 makes up a high percentage of the boat's weight. i weight just over 25% of the M15's 'dry boat weight'. i can really change an M15's orientation on the water by where i sit/stand. now think how two guys my weight can adjust the M15's orientation!
i'm much more nervous in high wind situation when off the wind v. going to weather. at times i've doused the main and just gone off the wind with the headsail ... much easier to dump all the wind in the jib than the main when off the wind. NOTE: this last comment is only for going off the wind ... going to weather i have a completely different opinion on how to sail the M15 in high wind.
my other practice is to always have the main sheet in my hand. this means i can loose the sheet quickly (ie, i don't have to find it in the cockpit footwell.
the other practice is having a knife on my body to cut a snagged sheet, line, whatever.
:: Dave Scobie
--- On Mon, 4/1/13, Chris Smith<chris.r.smith@gmail.com> wrote:
You know, now thinking back I don't think she went full turtle. I can recall 2 times that I had a full knockdown (though I think there were 3 times..) and both times the mast was in the water and the boat was not righting. The first time iirc, we were travelling upwind at quite a clip, and I was not able to let out enough sail fast enough, or round out to prevent the sail from going under. The second time I was travelling downwind with the main almost full out to starbird. The wind shifted slightly and, due to the unbalanced weight in the cockpit (I think), the boat went over to port. Both times I was able to swim around to the bottom of the boat and grab the keel and pull down far enough that another person could hang on it while i pushed up on the mast and sail, trying to get water out of it. I don't think I had the presence of mind, in either case, to uncleat the sail. I think I was running main only on both of these occasions, as well.
I attributed the boat not going full turtle to some quick thinking and action on my part, but perhaps I'm overestimating myself and underestimating Lyle and Jerry's design and build!
I'm happy to reminisce about my sailing fails, having learned important lessons from each! There was one time I got caught in a tree...
On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 9:30 AM, Tom Smith<openboatt@gmail.com> wrote:
I've never heard of an M15 going turtle either. I
guess there's a first
for everything, but like Dave, I'd like to know
more. T
On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 7:26 AM, W David Scobie<wdscobie@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Chris:
when you write turtled do you mean your boat was
completely inverted and
stayed that way?
or do you mean she mast in the water (more than 90
degrees) in a full
knockdown?
where your sail sheets (main and jib) loose or
still cleated?
just curious as your writing is the first i've
read of such a thing
happening.
:: Dave Scobie
--- On Mon, 4/1/13, Chris Smith<chris.r.smith@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Just to confirm what Daniel was saying, I've >
turtled my M15 a
> couple times for various reasons. > Luckily I had a couple
> people with me, each time, so I had them hang > on the keel
> while I tried to empty the sail of > water. The boat popped up
> quickly with a surprisingly small amount of > water in the
> cabin, but I'd hesitate to call the M15 'self > righting'.
-- Chris
-- Chris
----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6218 - Release Date: 04/01/13
And I find there is too much distraction if there are many people on the boat. Linda
I frequently sail with one or two crew, very ocasionally with three crew. With four in the boat, two on each side, it is a party, not a sail. One or two crew is fine, but I rerig the main sheet to the stern with a becket, block and cam on the traveler, to keep lines out from peoples feet. On a windy day, three people in the boat allows you to keep a full sail and go fast. Mike M-15 Anne Bonny ________________________________ From: stevetrapp <stevetrapp@q.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, April 1, 2013 7:49 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: turtled M15? Seems that whenever there are three or more aboard my M-15, one or two are always sitting or stepping on a line, and in the way when a sheet needs to be trimmed. I have finally learned to emphasize that my boat is small whenever I talk to people who might want to go sailing, even have a couple of overwieght relatives with whom I try to avoid such conversations. Steve M-15 # 335 Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6218 - Release Date: 04/01/13
I too have found that sometimes I have more friends and/or relatives who want to go sailing than my M-15 can accomodate. I find that two adults is comfortable, any more gets crowded. Steve M-15 # 335 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Smith" <chris.r.smith@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 10:31 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: turtled M15?
Fortunately for me, both knockdowns were in relatively small lakes. The lakes are fairly well tree ringed, and get gusty in parts. I think both knockdowns had at least 3 passengers (4 total people), and I've found that trying to keep the mainsheet untangled from that many peoples legs between the cleat at the front of the cockpit and my hand at the back of the cockpit can be a challenge.
I've developed a good schpeil for new passengers because of the difficulties I've had. I'm happy to report no knockdowns in 5 years! ;)
On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 11:48 AM, W David Scobie <wdscobie@yahoo.com> wrote:
yep, not releasing the sail sheets would hold many boats MUCH larger than the M15 in a knockdown orientation. boats where the sheets are still cleated and the sails in the water will likely only come up after the rig comes off the boat, or the next breaking wave rolls the boat back 'up' (and usually removing the rig), or the crew lets go or cuts the sheets. the latter is the best solution ;-)
when going to into the wind usually weather helm or a rudder stall will round the boat up before she goes over ... except in a sudden and 'large' gust.
most knock downs occur when a boat is off the weather as it is much harder to get the air out of the sails and the boat is more likely to be rolled by a breaking wave.
another thing to remember is that the crew in the M15 makes up a high percentage of the boat's weight. i weight just over 25% of the M15's 'dry boat weight'. i can really change an M15's orientation on the water by where i sit/stand. now think how two guys my weight can adjust the M15's orientation!
i'm much more nervous in high wind situation when off the wind v. going to weather. at times i've doused the main and just gone off the wind with the headsail ... much easier to dump all the wind in the jib than the main when off the wind. NOTE: this last comment is only for going off the wind ... going to weather i have a completely different opinion on how to sail the M15 in high wind.
my other practice is to always have the main sheet in my hand. this means i can loose the sheet quickly (ie, i don't have to find it in the cockpit footwell.
the other practice is having a knife on my body to cut a snagged sheet, line, whatever.
:: Dave Scobie
--- On Mon, 4/1/13, Chris Smith <chris.r.smith@gmail.com> wrote:
You know, now thinking back I don't think she went full turtle. I can recall 2 times that I had a full knockdown (though I think there were 3 times..) and both times the mast was in the water and the boat was not righting. The first time iirc, we were travelling upwind at quite a clip, and I was not able to let out enough sail fast enough, or round out to prevent the sail from going under. The second time I was travelling downwind with the main almost full out to starbird. The wind shifted slightly and, due to the unbalanced weight in the cockpit (I think), the boat went over to port. Both times I was able to swim around to the bottom of the boat and grab the keel and pull down far enough that another person could hang on it while i pushed up on the mast and sail, trying to get water out of it. I don't think I had the presence of mind, in either case, to uncleat the sail. I think I was running main only on both of these occasions, as well.
I attributed the boat not going full turtle to some quick thinking and action on my part, but perhaps I'm overestimating myself and underestimating Lyle and Jerry's design and build!
I'm happy to reminisce about my sailing fails, having learned important lessons from each! There was one time I got caught in a tree...
On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 9:30 AM, Tom Smith <openboatt@gmail.com> wrote:
I've never heard of an M15 going turtle either. I guess there's a first for everything, but like Dave, I'd like to know more. T
On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 7:26 AM, W David Scobie <wdscobie@yahoo.com> wrote:
Chris:
when you write turtled do you mean your boat was completely inverted and stayed that way?
or do you mean she mast in the water (more than 90 degrees) in a full knockdown?
where your sail sheets (main and jib) loose or still cleated?
just curious as your writing is the first i've read of such a thing happening.
:: Dave Scobie
--- On Mon, 4/1/13, Chris Smith <chris.r.smith@gmail.com> wrote:
Just to confirm what Daniel was saying, I've turtled my M15 a couple times for various reasons. Luckily I had a couple people with me, each time, so I had them hang on the keel while I tried to empty the sail of water. The boat popped up quickly with a surprisingly small amount of water in the cabin, but I'd hesitate to call the M15 'self righting'.
-- Chris
-- Chris
----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6218 - Release Date: 04/01/13
participants (10)
-
Bob Eeg -
Chris Smith -
Daniel Rich -
David Gilroy -
Linda Cummings -
Martha Ekwurtzel -
mrh219＠yahoo.com -
stevetrapp -
Thomas Buzzi -
W David Scobie