Scott, Thanks for the illuminating treatise on Cetol and other finishes. I'm a fan of it too, mainly because I'm lazy and time is in short supply around here. Any words of advise about applying Cetol to epoxy sealed wood? I did the interior of our homebuilt canoe this way, which lives upside down outside on saw horses. It really sets off the luan plywood compared to paint. I built it last fall-so far, so good. I'll note that applying Cetol is much easier than enamel paint because it goes on so smoothly. Boat U.S. has recently run a special on Cetol, buy one get one free. I did so at our local West Marine, which agreed to honour the sale (after all they're the same company now). That made it $15 a quart. Do you use an oxygen remover etc inside your partial cans of Cetol? One more thought: Much of our aesthetic perception is based on familiarity. We think of Cherry being a dark wood simply because it's been stained that way for hundreds of years in order to emulate Mahogany. It's actually a pale red. Our southern woods are loaded with diversity. There's just about every hue of wood you can think of if you look. I even like poplar, and it's light green! Pretty is as pretty does. Cheers Steve Tyree, a Tennessee boy with a P-15 and a Piragua canoe In a message dated 6/30/2004 10:03:00 PM Central Standard Time, Wilsometer@aol.com writes: Rick et al, OK, I guess I will be the voice of some dissent here (nothing unusual!). In my 20 years of maintaining boats (professionally, as well as many of my own), I have tried just about every coating material and method out there. I've done teak oil, synthetic oils (Teak Wonder and others), Armada, Cetol, Armada or Cetol over penetrating epoxy, Bristol Finish (small test only), etc. As Connie frequently reminds us, the appropriate material is dependent on the intended use, or in this case, exposure. An M-boat that is garaged or covered when not in use will likely enjoy great longevity with virtually any product, whereas boats/coatings left exposed in more extreme climates are subject to an accelerated decay in coating performance. For about ten years, I maintained several boats (large with extensive teak) using conventional teak oils. Longevity varied by the boat. The boat in San Diego required complete cleaning and recoating every three months. In San Francisco, I could wait four to five months, but again, I had to wash/scrub the wood to restore appearance prior to re-oiling. In Seattle, I could go six months, but green moss/algae was a problem (same drill-clean/scrub prior to application). I still like the look of a good oil (I liked 'Seafin' the best), but most clients were not pleased with the lack of longevity. Enter synthetics: (better living through chemistry?). When 'Teak Wonder' hit the market, three out of six regular clients made the switch. The San Diego, San Francisco, and Seattle boats would now go 6, 8, and 12 months respectively. I did get some gripes about the orange color (not dissimilar from the original Cetol), but most found the tradeoff worthwhile. When the time came to recoat, I used the proprietary Teak Wonder Cleaner and Brightener (two separate products). This was still a labor intensive process, and the longevity was still questionable in high UV areas. When Cetol first hit the market, I tried it on a construction project (mahogany siding on a contemporary house). I was stunned when I returned two years later to replace a faulty window unit, and the Cetol still looked new (southern exposure/very hot site). I tried it on a friend's boat with similar results. That boat still has the original Cetol (seven years +/-) with only light recoats every second year (no stripping, just very light sanding and wipe down). I then tried Armada on our then 34' pilothouse ketch. This boat had endless teak (bulwarks, caprails, trim--you name it!), and I was not interested in anything like the aforementioned oiling regime. The Armada looked great, and lasted well (in Seattle area), but did not hold up as well to abrasion. Even light brushes of a fender or line seemed to abrade away the coating. It did not crack or flake, but rather just seemed to disappear in these areas. Recoating was easy, and I still consider this a viable coating--though not with the longevity of Cetol. Ten years later, five out of six of the original vessels mentioned above have switched to Cetol. They get one light recoat annually in California--every two years in Seattle, and all still look like new. I did my M-15 in Cetol shortly after purchase (1996?), and still get compliments on the original (never recoated) finish (boat is garaged). I recently (six months ago) did another large boat in Half Moon Bay, California, and have several inquiries from others wanting me to do theirs. After six months, the teak looks as if it were done yesterday while the surrounding boats with teak oil are covered in algae/moss, etc. (Cetol is more of a 'closed coat' finish, and as such, does not support 'growies' in the grain as do oil and other finishes). The aesthetic concerns of the various coatings are undeniably a matter of personal preference. For me, the color and finish quality of a product are components in the matrix to be considered along with longevity, labor cost, climate/exposure, etc. I still have one friend who insists on annual sanding with 8-10 coats of hand-rubbed varnish (money no object) because he cannot abide the orange pigment of Cetol or other high-tech coatings. I fully agree that the rather orange color of Cetol is unfortunate. The newer Cetol 'Light' is somewhat better, but it is still quite orange relative to other finishes. If there was anything that performed nearly as well in my climate, I would certainly consider it. To date, I have found no such product. My initial test sample of 'Bristol Finish' (small block of coated teak thrown on top of my garage) is not promising, though the initial finish is beautiful. I would also like to suggest that the quality of the job (preparation and application), as well as the relative ease of use of a given product make a big difference. Cetol, alas, is not the most forgiving of products to work with. That said, I have seen numerous Cetol jobs that rival a good varnish in surface quality. This goes a long way to mitigating the, um, unusual orange tint. One recent visitor to my M15 could not believe that he was looking at Cetol. I have found a few tricks in using Cetol (original or 'Light'): 1) Thoroughly strip ALL previous coatings and clean/brighten teak (I still use 'Teak Wonder' Cleaner and Brightener for initial prep--be careful of your gel coat) 2) Sand teak to remove ridges/excessive open grain 3) Let teak dry FULLY before application 4) Mask around ALL teak with a high quality tape like 3M '14 day' blue, or 3M green as if doing a high quality paint job. 5) Apply indoors when possible, and within temperature range suggested on can (better on warm side of range). If you must apply outdoors, wait for a calm, dry day (three days, actually). 6) Do not 'whip' air into the material prior to applying (the bubbles result in surface voids) 7) Only pour out what you can use in fifteen minutes or less, and cover the can (the solvents evaporate quickly, and the result is 'dragging' of the material by the brush and/or excessive brushmarks) 8) Push the material into itself (rather than pulling the material out of area just painted), and keep a wet edge) 9) Apply a total of four coats 24 hours apart. Sand 24 hours after the third coat until surface is smooth. Final coat will lay down nicely as a result. 10) Remove masking tape by pulling tape out and away (flatly), not up. 11) Cleanup promptly. Hardened Cetol is difficult to remove! Repairs to damaged areas can be feathered in at any time. So, I know that this sounds like a lot of work. It is, but you can rest assured that if you do it correctly, you will spend a lot less time in the long run when compared to other coatings. Even though I garage my M15, I am still glad I did Cetol. Cleaning is easier, and if the current trend continues, I will not have to recoat for a very long time. When I recently bought my Flicka, I decided it too will get Cetol on all external wood. I can live with the orange. It helps brighten those gray Northwest days!! A few comments on marine lumber: 1) Teak and Mahogany are the best suited readily available species for external/above deck usage (with teak being better than mahogany in most instances) due to natural rot resistance. 2) Plantation-grown teak is now available as an alternative to destructive/non-sustainable harvest practices. 3) Letting teak 'go gray' is an option, but eventually the natural oils will leach out/oxidize. Tight old-growth or vertical-grain teak (not what most of us have on our boats) can last a very long time, but eventually unprotected teak will dry and check/split/crack. Sealing at least the end grain will help slow the drying process. 4) The high silica content of teak makes it highly resistant to pests (and eats saw blades like crazy!) 5) Most oak species are poorly suited to marine use due to poor resistance to rot. Beware structural oak with small black lines (along grain) or black spots. This is often indicative of spreading rot. Pacific Seacraft used to use oak for rudder cheek blocks as it is inherently stronger than teak. They later changed to teak when these oak blocks failed regularly due to rot (even when varnished!) All usual disclaimers apply--Just my $0.02 worth. Scott M15 #478 'bebe' PSC Flicka (unnamed)