You're right, Skip . . . I didn't think of that because I now have a kick-up rudder on my M17 . . . ----- Original Message ----- From: <fml162@aol.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 9:43 PM Subject: Grounding durability It looks to me like the rudder and its fittings would be more vulnerable then the keel/centerboard. At least on Hull #624, the rudder is a tad bit lower than the keel with the board up. Just a thought. Skip