Re: M_Boats: montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 79, Issue 3
A general question for the list: what have sailor's done to handle grounding for lightning protection on their Montgomeries? I was sailing on Lake Granby in Colorado, at 8280 or so feet above the sea. A thunderstorm passed nearby, seemingly very low overhead at that altitude. Static snapping from the backstay to my back alerted me to the electrostatic charge accumulating on Cloud Girl, my M17. When I sat forward I could hear static begin to rhythmically snap from the tip of an anchor on the cockpit bench to one of the hinges there. Needless to say, I headed more near the shore, where something was higher than my mast, in this case a rocky and tree-covered mountain side. My friend Mike called me later to tell me he was experiencing the same phenomenon on his M15, La Pequenita, at a dock a few miles away across the lake, where he couldn't touch his boat without a discharge of static. The next day of my four day mini-cruise up there I reached away from another storm, this one showing lightning on the mountain peaks to the north. Since then, I have been researching static dissipators and grounding plates and braided copper straps and so on. Please share your system if you have installed one. What were the elements, how did you route them, where did you put the external grounding plate (if you used one), etc? Chance of being hit by lightning in a sailboat, I read, is .02% or so. Actually pretty high. Higher if it has an inboard engine, or you are in Florida. Or perhaps on a high mountain lake in an electrical storm! I would appreciate any system descriptions. Thanks, David, M17 #393
Has anyone researched/used the notion of using a thick copper wire, about the diameter of a battery cable, and attaching it to the back stay and at the other end cutting back the insulation about 6-8" and lowering that end about 2' in the water. I had read about this approach but never tried it. I've read horror stories about using plates bolted on the hull only to have the lightening use that as a path to earth and in the meantime blowing the plate right out of the hull. I guess this debate will go on forever for as long as sailors have big sticks made of metal sticking straight up into the sky. Joe Seafrog M17 ----- Original Message ----- From: "DavidCPatterson Patteson" <davidcpatterson@msn.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 11:21 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 79, Issue 3
A general question for the list: what have sailor's done to handle grounding for lightning protection on their Montgomeries? I was sailing on Lake Granby in Colorado, at 8280 or so feet above the sea. A thunderstorm passed nearby, seemingly very low overhead at that altitude. Static snapping from the backstay to my back alerted me to the electrostatic charge accumulating on Cloud Girl, my M17. When I sat forward I could hear static begin to rhythmically snap from the tip of an anchor on the cockpit bench to one of the hinges there. Needless to say, I headed more near the shore, where something was higher than my mast, in this case a rocky and tree-covered mountain side. My friend Mike called me later to tell me he was experiencing the same phenomenon on his M15, La Pequenita, at a dock a few miles away across the lake, where he couldn't touch his boat without a discharge of static. The next day of my four day mini-cruise up there I reached away from another storm, this one showing lightning on the mountain peaks to the north. Since then, I have been researching static dissipators and grounding plates and braided copper straps and so on. Please share your system if you have installed one. What were the elements, how did you route them, where did you put the external grounding plate (if you used one), etc? Chance of being hit by lightning in a sailboat, I read, is .02% or so. Actually pretty high. Higher if it has an inboard engine, or you are in Florida. Or perhaps on a high mountain lake in an electrical storm! I would appreciate any system descriptions. Thanks, David, M17 #393 _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
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I used short lengths of chain with snap shackles to attach to the stays and dangle in the water on my daysailers. My Balboa 20 had a heavy copper flat braided strap running from the base of the mast to the keel pivot bolt. Griselda, my fin/bulb keel M17 has a heavt battery cable from the mast tabernacle bolt to the keel bolt on the cast iron fixed keel. Never had the occasion to test them thankfully. Whitebeard M17 #14, Griselda
From: seagray@embarqmail.com To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 13:34:42 -0400 Subject: Re: M_Boats: montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 79, Issue 3
Has anyone researched/used the notion of using a thick copper wire, about the diameter of a battery cable, and attaching it to the back stay and at the other end cutting back the insulation about 6-8" and lowering that end about 2' in the water. I had read about this approach but never tried it. I've read horror stories about using plates bolted on the hull only to have the lightening use that as a path to earth and in the meantime blowing the plate right out of the hull. I guess this debate will go on forever for as long as sailors have big sticks made of metal sticking straight up into the sky. Joe Seafrog M17
----- Original Message ----- From: "DavidCPatterson Patteson" <davidcpatterson@msn.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 11:21 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 79, Issue 3
A general question for the list: what have sailor's done to handle grounding for lightning protection on their Montgomeries? I was sailing on Lake Granby in Colorado, at 8280 or so feet above the sea. A thunderstorm passed nearby, seemingly very low overhead at that altitude. Static snapping from the backstay to my back alerted me to the electrostatic charge accumulating on Cloud Girl, my M17. When I sat forward I could hear static begin to rhythmically snap from the tip of an anchor on the cockpit bench to one of the hinges there. Needless to say, I headed more near the shore, where something was higher than my mast, in this case a rocky and tree-covered mountain side. My friend Mike called me later to tell me he was experiencing the same phenomenon on his M15, La Pequenita, at a dock a few miles away across the lake, where he couldn't touch his boat without a discharge of static. The next day of my four day mini-cruise up there I reached away from another storm, this one showing lightning on the mountain peaks to the north. Since then, I have been researching static dissipators and grounding plates and braided copper straps and so on. Please share your system if you have installed one. What were the elements, how did you route them, where did you put the external grounding plate (if you used one), etc? Chance of being hit by lightning in a sailboat, I read, is .02% or so. Actually pretty high. Higher if it has an inboard engine, or you are in Florida. Or perhaps on a high mountain lake in an electrical storm! I would appreciate any system descriptions. Thanks, David, M17 #393 _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
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A "shocking" experience I had earlier this summer led me to look into lightning protection. We were sailing on the Potomac River under a threatening sky when I leaned over to shut of the outboard gas I was surprised by a distinct electrical jolt from the motor. Tried a couple more times to touch both the motor and mounting and got shocked both times. These were not carpet sparks, but pretty strong jolts. The storm never broke, and we saw lightning only on the horizon, and we went on to sail in the planned race. My googling led me to an article titled "Lightning and Sailboats" from the University of Florida Seagrant Program, which can be found at: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/SG071 Lots of good information there on protection systems and their value. I learned a few quotable facts: Strikes in fresh water cause significantly more damage than in salt water due to the lower conductivity of fresh water. Protection systems should provide a direct path from the base of the mast to the water. Stainless stays should not be used due to their lower conductivity than the aluminum mast. Lightning will likely follow the mast anway. As in most things, there are no easy answers, and no protection systems will guarantee no damage or injury. Rick M-17 #633 Lynne L On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 11:21 AM, DavidCPatterson Patteson < davidcpatterson@msn.com> wrote:
A general question for the list: what have sailor's done to handle grounding for lightning protection on their Montgomeries? I was sailing on Lake Granby in Colorado, at 8280 or so feet above the sea. A thunderstorm passed nearby, seemingly very low overhead at that altitude. Static snapping from the backstay to my back alerted me to the electrostatic charge accumulating on Cloud Girl, my M17. When I sat forward I could hear static begin to rhythmically snap from the tip of an anchor on the cockpit bench to one of the hinges there. Needless to say, I headed more near the shore, where something was higher than my mast, in this case a rocky and tree-covered mountain side. My friend Mike called me later to tell me he was experiencing the same phenomenon on his M15, La Pequenita, at a dock a few miles away across the lake, where he couldn't touch his boat without a discharge of static. The next day of my four day mini-cruise up there I reached away from another storm, this one showing lightning on the mountain peaks to the north. Since then, I have been researching static dissipators and grounding plates and braided copper straps and so on. Please share your system if you have installed one. What were the elements, how did you route them, where did you put the external grounding plate (if you used one), etc? Chance of being hit by lightning in a sailboat, I read, is .02% or so. Actually pretty high. Higher if it has an inboard engine, or you are in Florida. Or perhaps on a high mountain lake in an electrical storm! I would appreciate any system descriptions. Thanks, David, M17 #393 _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
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My favorite system is to anchor or have a slip next to a 40 footer with a MUCH taller mast :-) --Chad On Sep 9, 2009, at 1:37 PM, Rick Davies wrote:
A "shocking" experience I had earlier this summer led me to look into lightning protection. We were sailing on the Potomac River under a threatening sky when I leaned over to shut of the outboard gas I was surprised by a distinct electrical jolt from the motor. Tried a couple more times to touch both the motor and mounting and got shocked both times. These were not carpet sparks, but pretty strong jolts. The storm never broke, and we saw lightning only on the horizon, and we went on to sail in the planned race.
My googling led me to an article titled "Lightning and Sailboats" from the University of Florida Seagrant Program, which can be found at:
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/SG071
Lots of good information there on protection systems and their value. I learned a few quotable facts:
Strikes in fresh water cause significantly more damage than in salt water due to the lower conductivity of fresh water.
Protection systems should provide a direct path from the base of the mast to the water.
Stainless stays should not be used due to their lower conductivity than the aluminum mast. Lightning will likely follow the mast anway.
As in most things, there are no easy answers, and no protection systems will guarantee no damage or injury.
Rick M-17 #633 Lynne L
On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 11:21 AM, DavidCPatterson Patteson < davidcpatterson@msn.com> wrote:
A general question for the list: what have sailor's done to handle grounding for lightning protection on their Montgomeries? I was sailing on Lake Granby in Colorado, at 8280 or so feet above the sea. A thunderstorm passed nearby, seemingly very low overhead at that altitude. Static snapping from the backstay to my back alerted me to the electrostatic charge accumulating on Cloud Girl, my M17. When I sat forward I could hear static begin to rhythmically snap from the tip of an anchor on the cockpit bench to one of the hinges there. Needless to say, I headed more near the shore, where something was higher than my mast, in this case a rocky and tree-covered mountain side. My friend Mike called me later to tell me he was experiencing the same phenomenon on his M15, La Pequenita, at a dock a few miles away across the lake, where he couldn't touch his boat without a discharge of static. The next day of my four day mini-cruise up there I reached away from another storm, this one showing lightning on the mountain peaks to the north. Since then, I have been researching static dissipators and grounding plates and braided copper straps and so on. Please share your system if you have installed one. What were the elements, how did you route them, where did you put the external grounding plate (if you used one), etc? Chance of being hit by lightning in a sailboat, I read, is .02% or so. Actually pretty high. Higher if it has an inboard engine, or you are in Florida. Or perhaps on a high mountain lake in an electrical storm! I would appreciate any system descriptions. Thanks, David, M17 #393 _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
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Kinda like Linus' blanket. Doesn't necessarily do anything, but does make one feel better, as Stuart's comment in this thread notes... http://bbs.trailersailor.com/forums/trailersailor/index.cgi/read/709579 Not much left of that boat in the video. Tod Mills M17 #408, 1987 galley model BuscaBrisas
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Chad Parrish Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 4:32 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 79, Issue 3
My favorite system is to anchor or have a slip next to a 40 footer with a MUCH taller mast :-)
--Chad
On Sep 9, 2009, at 1:37 PM, Rick Davies wrote:
A "shocking" experience I had earlier this summer led me to look into lightning protection. We were sailing on the Potomac River under a threatening sky when I leaned over to shut of the outboard gas I was surprised by a distinct electrical jolt from the motor. Tried a couple more times to touch both the motor and mounting and got shocked both times. These were not carpet sparks, but pretty strong jolts. The storm never broke, and we saw lightning only on the horizon, and we went on to sail in the planned race.
My googling led me to an article titled "Lightning and Sailboats" from the University of Florida Seagrant Program, which can be found at:
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/SG071
Lots of good information there on protection systems and their value. I learned a few quotable facts:
Strikes in fresh water cause significantly more damage than in salt water due to the lower conductivity of fresh water.
Protection systems should provide a direct path from the base of the mast to the water.
Stainless stays should not be used due to their lower conductivity than the aluminum mast. Lightning will likely follow the mast anway.
As in most things, there are no easy answers, and no protection systems will guarantee no damage or injury.
Rick M-17 #633 Lynne L
On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 11:21 AM, DavidCPatterson Patteson < davidcpatterson@msn.com> wrote:
A general question for the list: what have sailor's done to handle grounding for lightning protection on their Montgomeries? I was sailing on Lake Granby in Colorado, at 8280 or so feet above the sea. A thunderstorm passed nearby, seemingly very low overhead at that altitude. Static snapping from the backstay to my back alerted me to the electrostatic charge accumulating on Cloud Girl, my M17. When I sat forward I could hear static begin to rhythmically snap from the tip of an anchor on the cockpit bench to one of the hinges there. Needless to say, I headed more near the shore, where something was higher than my mast, in this case a rocky and tree-covered mountain side. My friend Mike called me later to tell me he was experiencing the same phenomenon on his M15, La Pequenita, at a dock a few miles away across the lake, where he couldn't touch his boat without a discharge of static. The next day of my four day mini-cruise up there I reached away from another storm, this one showing lightning on the mountain peaks to the north. Since then, I have been researching static dissipators and grounding plates and braided copper straps and so on. Please share your system if you have installed one. What were the elements, how did you route them, where did you put the external grounding plate (if you used one), etc? Chance of being hit by lightning in a sailboat, I read, is .02% or so. Actually pretty high. Higher if it has an inboard engine, or you are in Florida. Or perhaps on a high mountain lake in an electrical storm! I would appreciate any system descriptions. Thanks, David, M17 #393 _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-
bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
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Has anyone experienced their Ida Sailor rudder develop a warp? I took a trip from Bogue Sound up to Oriental, NC and then out to Ocracoke Island. Each night I would pull the rudder up. I rafted up with two other boats in Ocracoke and pulled the rudder up and thought it had a slight warp to it but wrote it off to fatique and wearing bifocals. Then on the last night when I sailed from Ocracoke to Atlantic, I pulled up the rudder and it looked at its banana shape. I pulled the rudder completely off and laid it on the dock and it was definitely warped. It has about a 1" bow to it. Any thoughts? The rudder that I have is the white one. One other question. No matter how I pull up the rudder, I can only get it to raise up to water level. Then I have to use a boat hook to pull it the rest of the way up to its full vertical position. I looked at the video and Joel makes it look so simple. And then to add insult to injury, some yound lady does the same thing. Joe
Joe, I haven't had a warping issue with my Idasail rudder but I do a LOT of tacking. To get my Idasail rudder all the way up I start by giving the rope handle a mighty tug. As the rudder blade breaks the surface I let go of the rope and frantically grasp for the slippery white devil as it leaps from the water (powered by momentum). It's all in the wrist... By the way, I'm working on the mast gate photo / description. Jim On Sep 15, 2009, at 8:43 AM, Joe Murphy wrote:
Has anyone experienced their Ida Sailor rudder develop a warp? I took a trip from Bogue Sound up to Oriental, NC and then out to Ocracoke Island. Each night I would pull the rudder up. I rafted up with two other boats in Ocracoke and pulled the rudder up and thought it had a slight warp to it but wrote it off to fatique and wearing bifocals. Then on the last night when I sailed from Ocracoke to Atlantic, I pulled up the rudder and it looked at its banana shape. I pulled the rudder completely off and laid it on the dock and it was definitely warped. It has about a 1" bow to it. Any thoughts? The rudder that I have is the white one. One other question. No matter how I pull up the rudder, I can only get it to raise up to water level. Then I have to use a boat hook to pull it the rest of the way up to its full vertical position. I looked at the video and Joel makes it look so simple. And then to add insult to injury, some yound lady does the same thing. Joe
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Thanks Jim, I look forward to your photos of the mast gate. Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Poulakis" <picfo@comcast.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 5:14 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Ida Sailor Rudder
Joe, I haven't had a warping issue with my Idasail rudder but I do a LOT of tacking.
To get my Idasail rudder all the way up I start by giving the rope handle a mighty tug. As the rudder blade breaks the surface I let go of the rope and frantically grasp for the slippery white devil as it leaps from the water (powered by momentum).
It's all in the wrist...
By the way, I'm working on the mast gate photo / description.
Jim
On Sep 15, 2009, at 8:43 AM, Joe Murphy wrote:
Has anyone experienced their Ida Sailor rudder develop a warp? I took a trip from Bogue Sound up to Oriental, NC and then out to Ocracoke Island. Each night I would pull the rudder up. I rafted up with two other boats in Ocracoke and pulled the rudder up and thought it had a slight warp to it but wrote it off to fatique and wearing bifocals. Then on the last night when I sailed from Ocracoke to Atlantic, I pulled up the rudder and it looked at its banana shape. I pulled the rudder completely off and laid it on the dock and it was definitely warped. It has about a 1" bow to it. Any thoughts? The rudder that I have is the white one. One other question. No matter how I pull up the rudder, I can only get it to raise up to water level. Then I have to use a boat hook to pull it the rest of the way up to its full vertical position. I looked at the video and Joel makes it look so simple. And then to add insult to injury, some yound lady does the same thing. Joe
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Joe, I have not noticed any warping after quite a few miles, but I too have to reach down and pull the rudder from the horizontal by hand (only wimps use a boat hook!). My suspicion is that a really hard pull would shoot the blade past the tipping point and all the way up, but so far I have not made it a project. Tom On Sep 15, 2009, at 8:43 AM, Joe Murphy wrote:
Has anyone experienced their Ida Sailor rudder develop a warp? I took a trip from Bogue Sound up to Oriental, NC and then out to Ocracoke Island. Each night I would pull the rudder up. I rafted up with two other boats in Ocracoke and pulled the rudder up and thought it had a slight warp to it but wrote it off to fatique and wearing bifocals. Then on the last night when I sailed from Ocracoke to Atlantic, I pulled up the rudder and it looked at its banana shape. I pulled the rudder completely off and laid it on the dock and it was definitely warped. It has about a 1" bow to it. Any thoughts? The rudder that I have is the white one. One other question. No matter how I pull up the rudder, I can only get it to raise up to water level. Then I have to use a boat hook to pull it the rest of the way up to its full vertical position. I looked at the video and Joel makes it look so simple. And then to add insult to injury, some yound lady does the same thing. Joe
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participants (8)
-
Chad Parrish -
DavidCPatterson Patteson -
htmills＠zoominternet.net -
James Poulakis -
Joe Murphy -
Rick Davies -
Ronnie Keeler -
Thomas Jenkins