Does anyone have information on the best way to replace the iron ballast inthe keel? I discovered a leak coming in on the port side about 6” aft of the join of the keel with the bottom. it is additionally at the first edge of the first “lap”. I’m thinking ballast replacement because drilling into the area produced a lot of rusty water. Additionally, the lap is longitudinaly angled and protruding instead of being a fair curve’ the starboard side is similar but not so pronounced (nor leaking). No problem with raising or lowering the centerboard. Any suggestions would be appreciated
Bruce. Sail until the centerboard jams and then think about a repair. You need to enter the keel from the sides by cutting access through the fiberglass skin. You then hammer/jackhammer out all the steel ballast (cast off centers from manufacturing washers). Weigh the removed ballast so you know how much to put back in. You then create lead bricks - 'cast' them by mixing with resin into forms. You place bricks in keel and bond them in place being sure to keeping the weight distribution right. Now fill voids with thickened resin. Now you fiberglass the keel skin, fair, sand more fairing until the shape is back to original then paint over the repair (type of paint needs to be that designed for full time submersion, not topsides, or just use anti-fouling). Folks have done the repair. LOTS of work, maybe one of the can share pictures and more details, and why I recommend sailing until the centerboard begins to jam. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Sun, Jul 4, 2021, 10:24 PM Bruce Couchman via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Does anyone have information on the best way to replace the iron ballast inthe keel? I discovered a leak coming in on the port side about 6” aft of the join of the keel with the bottom. it is additionally at the first edge of the first “lap”. I’m thinking ballast replacement because drilling into the area produced a lot of rusty water. Additionally, the lap is longitudinaly angled and protruding instead of being a fair curve’ the starboard side is similar but not so pronounced (nor leaking).
No problem with raising or lowering the centerboard. Any suggestions would be appreciated
Hi Dave, Is there a mold of the Montgomery 15 keel somewhere? If I could make a replacement with lead instead of steel, I would. (So I don't have to worry about future pontential problems). Is there anywhere I could go to have a new one made? Paul On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 7:32 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Bruce.
Sail until the centerboard jams and then think about a repair.
You need to enter the keel from the sides by cutting access through the fiberglass skin. You then hammer/jackhammer out all the steel ballast (cast off centers from manufacturing washers). Weigh the removed ballast so you know how much to put back in. You then create lead bricks - 'cast' them by mixing with resin into forms. You place bricks in keel and bond them in place being sure to keeping the weight distribution right. Now fill voids with thickened resin. Now you fiberglass the keel skin, fair, sand more fairing until the shape is back to original then paint over the repair (type of paint needs to be that designed for full time submersion, not topsides, or just use anti-fouling).
Folks have done the repair. LOTS of work, maybe one of the can share pictures and more details, and why I recommend sailing until the centerboard begins to jam.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Sun, Jul 4, 2021, 10:24 PM Bruce Couchman via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Does anyone have information on the best way to replace the iron ballast inthe keel? I discovered a leak coming in on the port side about 6” aft of the join of the keel with the bottom. it is additionally at the first edge of the first “lap”. I’m thinking ballast replacement because drilling into the area produced a lot of rusty water. Additionally, the lap is longitudinaly angled and protruding instead of being a fair curve’ the starboard side is similar but not so pronounced (nor leaking).
No problem with raising or lowering the centerboard. Any suggestions would be appreciated
Paul: Is is your boat's keel bursting apart? If it isn't the repair I outlined is the way to go: first wait and then if the centerboard is getting sticky/stuck replace the ballast. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 9:55 AM Paul Baker <avalonjazz@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Dave, Is there a mold of the Montgomery 15 keel somewhere? If I could make a replacement with lead instead of steel, I would. (So I don't have to worry about future pontential problems). Is there anywhere I could go to have a new one made? Paul
On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 7:32 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Bruce.
Sail until the centerboard jams and then think about a repair.
You need to enter the keel from the sides by cutting access through the fiberglass skin. You then hammer/jackhammer out all the steel ballast (cast off centers from manufacturing washers). Weigh the removed ballast so you know how much to put back in. You then create lead bricks - 'cast' them by mixing with resin into forms. You place bricks in keel and bond them in place being sure to keeping the weight distribution right. Now fill voids with thickened resin. Now you fiberglass the keel skin, fair, sand more fairing until the shape is back to original then paint over the repair (type of paint needs to be that designed for full time submersion, not topsides, or just use anti-fouling).
Folks have done the repair. LOTS of work, maybe one of the can share pictures and more details, and why I recommend sailing until the centerboard begins to jam.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Sun, Jul 4, 2021, 10:24 PM Bruce Couchman via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Does anyone have information on the best way to replace the iron ballast inthe keel? I discovered a leak coming in on the port side about 6” aft of the join of the keel with the bottom. it is additionally at the first edge of the first “lap”. I’m thinking ballast replacement because drilling into the area produced a lot of rusty water. Additionally, the lap is longitudinaly angled and protruding instead of being a fair curve’ the starboard side is similar but not so pronounced (nor leaking).
No problem with raising or lowering the centerboard. Any suggestions would be appreciated
It still is working, so I guess I just won't worry about it until I need to. On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 10:00 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Paul:
Is is your boat's keel bursting apart? If it isn't the repair I outlined is the way to go: first wait and then if the centerboard is getting sticky/stuck replace the ballast.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 9:55 AM Paul Baker <avalonjazz@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Dave, Is there a mold of the Montgomery 15 keel somewhere? If I could make a replacement with lead instead of steel, I would. (So I don't have to worry about future pontential problems). Is there anywhere I could go to have a new one made? Paul
On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 7:32 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Bruce.
Sail until the centerboard jams and then think about a repair.
You need to enter the keel from the sides by cutting access through the fiberglass skin. You then hammer/jackhammer out all the steel ballast (cast off centers from manufacturing washers). Weigh the removed ballast so you know how much to put back in. You then create lead bricks - 'cast' them by mixing with resin into forms. You place bricks in keel and bond them in place being sure to keeping the weight distribution right. Now fill voids with thickened resin. Now you fiberglass the keel skin, fair, sand more fairing until the shape is back to original then paint over the repair (type of paint needs to be that designed for full time submersion, not topsides, or just use anti-fouling).
Folks have done the repair. LOTS of work, maybe one of the can share pictures and more details, and why I recommend sailing until the centerboard begins to jam.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Sun, Jul 4, 2021, 10:24 PM Bruce Couchman via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Does anyone have information on the best way to replace the iron ballast inthe keel? I discovered a leak coming in on the port side about 6” aft of the join of the keel with the bottom. it is additionally at the first edge of the first “lap”. I’m thinking ballast replacement because drilling into the area produced a lot of rusty water. Additionally, the lap is longitudinaly angled and protruding instead of being a fair curve’ the starboard side is similar but not so pronounced (nor leaking).
No problem with raising or lowering the centerboard. Any suggestions would be appreciated
Paul. I have the mold…. Most don’t have the money or skill set. A new bottom would require the keel with centerboard trunk, centerboard, Lead ballast and the ability to glass into place. Not a good idea on an old M 15 worth 3 grand. Bob…. Sent from my iPad
On Jul 5, 2021, at 9:55 AM, Paul Baker <avalonjazz@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Dave, Is there a mold of the Montgomery 15 keel somewhere? If I could make a replacement with lead instead of steel, I would. (So I don't have to worry about future pontential problems). Is there anywhere I could go to have a new one made? Paul
On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 7:32 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Bruce.
Sail until the centerboard jams and then think about a repair.
You need to enter the keel from the sides by cutting access through the fiberglass skin. You then hammer/jackhammer out all the steel ballast (cast off centers from manufacturing washers). Weigh the removed ballast so you know how much to put back in. You then create lead bricks - 'cast' them by mixing with resin into forms. You place bricks in keel and bond them in place being sure to keeping the weight distribution right. Now fill voids with thickened resin. Now you fiberglass the keel skin, fair, sand more fairing until the shape is back to original then paint over the repair (type of paint needs to be that designed for full time submersion, not topsides, or just use anti-fouling).
Folks have done the repair. LOTS of work, maybe one of the can share pictures and more details, and why I recommend sailing until the centerboard begins to jam.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Sun, Jul 4, 2021, 10:24 PM Bruce Couchman via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Does anyone have information on the best way to replace the iron ballast inthe keel? I discovered a leak coming in on the port side about 6” aft of the join of the keel with the bottom. it is additionally at the first edge of the first “lap”. I’m thinking ballast replacement because drilling into the area produced a lot of rusty water. Additionally, the lap is longitudinaly angled and protruding instead of being a fair curve’ the starboard side is similar but not so pronounced (nor leaking).
No problem with raising or lowering the centerboard. Any suggestions would be appreciated
Hi Bob, I thought that just the keel could be switched out. By your response, that's obviously not the case... On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 10:01 AM Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Paul. I have the mold…. Most don’t have the money or skill set. A new bottom would require the keel with centerboard trunk, centerboard, Lead ballast and the ability to glass into place. Not a good idea on an old M 15 worth 3 grand. Bob….
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 5, 2021, at 9:55 AM, Paul Baker <avalonjazz@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Dave, Is there a mold of the Montgomery 15 keel somewhere? If I could make a replacement with lead instead of steel, I would. (So I don't have to worry about future pontential problems). Is there anywhere I could go to have a new one made? Paul
On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 7:32 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Bruce.
Sail until the centerboard jams and then think about a repair.
You need to enter the keel from the sides by cutting access through the fiberglass skin. You then hammer/jackhammer out all the steel ballast (cast off centers from manufacturing washers). Weigh the removed ballast so you know how much to put back in. You then create lead bricks - 'cast' them by mixing with resin into forms. You place bricks in keel and bond them in place being sure to keeping the weight distribution right. Now fill voids with thickened resin. Now you fiberglass the keel skin, fair, sand more fairing until the shape is back to original then paint over the repair (type of paint needs to be that designed for full time submersion, not topsides, or just use anti-fouling).
Folks have done the repair. LOTS of work, maybe one of the can share pictures and more details, and why I recommend sailing until the centerboard begins to jam.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Sun, Jul 4, 2021, 10:24 PM Bruce Couchman via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Does anyone have information on the best way to replace the iron ballast inthe keel? I discovered a leak coming in on the port side about 6” aft of the join of the keel with the bottom. it is additionally at the first edge of the first “lap”. I’m thinking ballast replacement because drilling into the area produced a lot of rusty water. Additionally, the lap is longitudinaly angled and protruding instead of being a fair curve’ the starboard side is similar but not so pronounced (nor leaking).
No problem with raising or lowering the centerboard. Any suggestions would be appreciated
Paul the centerboard M15/17/23 have the ballast encapsulated in the hull. The hull is one piece and then the mix of ballast material (steel washer centers on the old boats and lead BBs for those after middle-ish 80s) is poured in. This is a good thing actually as boats with bolt-on keels have a long list of issues. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 10:09 AM Paul Baker <avalonjazz@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Bob, I thought that just the keel could be switched out. By your response, that's obviously not the case...
On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 10:01 AM Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Paul. I have the mold…. Most don’t have the money or skill set. A new bottom would require the keel with centerboard trunk, centerboard, Lead ballast and the ability to glass into place. Not a good idea on an old M 15 worth 3 grand. Bob….
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 5, 2021, at 9:55 AM, Paul Baker <avalonjazz@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Dave, Is there a mold of the Montgomery 15 keel somewhere? If I could make a replacement with lead instead of steel, I would. (So I don't have to worry about future pontential problems). Is there anywhere I could go to have a new one made? Paul
On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 7:32 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Bruce.
Sail until the centerboard jams and then think about a repair.
You need to enter the keel from the sides by cutting access through the fiberglass skin. You then hammer/jackhammer out all the steel ballast (cast off centers from manufacturing washers). Weigh the removed ballast so you know how much to put back in. You then create lead bricks - 'cast' them by mixing with resin into forms. You place bricks in keel and bond them in place being sure to keeping the weight distribution right. Now fill voids with thickened resin. Now you fiberglass the keel skin, fair, sand more fairing until the shape is back to original then paint over the repair (type of paint needs to be that designed for full time submersion, not topsides, or just use anti-fouling).
Folks have done the repair. LOTS of work, maybe one of the can share pictures and more details, and why I recommend sailing until the centerboard begins to jam.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Sun, Jul 4, 2021, 10:24 PM Bruce Couchman via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Does anyone have information on the best way to replace the iron ballast inthe keel? I discovered a leak coming in on the port side about 6” aft of the join of the keel with the bottom. it is additionally at the first edge of the first “lap”. I’m thinking ballast replacement because drilling into the area produced a lot of rusty water. Additionally, the lap is longitudinaly angled and protruding instead of being a fair curve’ the starboard side is similar but not so pronounced (nor leaking).
No problem with raising or lowering the centerboard. Any suggestions would be appreciated
Does anyone know the cutoff date sail number for the transition to lead ballast? Jerry, if you are there, can you weigh in? Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 5, 2021, at 10:13 AM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Paul the centerboard M15/17/23 have the ballast encapsulated in the hull. The hull is one piece and then the mix of ballast material (steel washer centers on the old boats and lead BBs for those after middle-ish 80s) is poured in.
This is a good thing actually as boats with bolt-on keels have a long list of issues.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 10:09 AM Paul Baker <avalonjazz@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Bob, I thought that just the keel could be switched out. By your response, that's obviously not the case...
On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 10:01 AM Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Paul. I have the mold…. Most don’t have the money or skill set. A new bottom would require the keel with centerboard trunk, centerboard, Lead ballast and the ability to glass into place. Not a good idea on an old M 15 worth 3 grand. Bob….
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 5, 2021, at 9:55 AM, Paul Baker <avalonjazz@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Dave, Is there a mold of the Montgomery 15 keel somewhere? If I could make a replacement with lead instead of steel, I would. (So I don't have to worry about future pontential problems). Is there anywhere I could go to have a new one made? Paul
On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 7:32 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Bruce.
Sail until the centerboard jams and then think about a repair.
You need to enter the keel from the sides by cutting access through the fiberglass skin. You then hammer/jackhammer out all the steel ballast (cast off centers from manufacturing washers). Weigh the removed ballast so you know how much to put back in. You then create lead bricks - 'cast' them by mixing with resin into forms. You place bricks in keel and bond them in place being sure to keeping the weight distribution right. Now fill voids with thickened resin. Now you fiberglass the keel skin, fair, sand more fairing until the shape is back to original then paint over the repair (type of paint needs to be that designed for full time submersion, not topsides, or just use anti-fouling).
Folks have done the repair. LOTS of work, maybe one of the can share pictures and more details, and why I recommend sailing until the centerboard begins to jam.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Sun, Jul 4, 2021, 10:24 PM Bruce Couchman via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Does anyone have information on the best way to replace the iron ballast inthe keel? I discovered a leak coming in on the port side about 6” aft of the join of the keel with the bottom. it is additionally at the first edge of the first “lap”. I’m thinking ballast replacement because drilling into the area produced a lot of rusty water. Additionally, the lap is longitudinaly angled and protruding instead of being a fair curve’ the starboard side is similar but not so pronounced (nor leaking).
No problem with raising or lowering the centerboard. Any suggestions would be appreciated
My understanding is that if there is a fiberglased hump under hatch under the v berth you’ve got iron ballast. #378 has iron, and is I think one of the later boats to have it. On Mon, Jul 5, 2021 at 10:41 AM Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
Does anyone know the cutoff date sail number for the transition to lead ballast? Jerry, if you are there, can you weigh in?
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 5, 2021, at 10:13 AM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Paul the centerboard M15/17/23 have the ballast encapsulated in the hull. The hull is one piece and then the mix of ballast material (steel washer centers on the old boats and lead BBs for those after middle-ish 80s) is poured in.
This is a good thing actually as boats with bolt-on keels have a long list of issues.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 10:09 AM Paul Baker <avalonjazz@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Bob, I thought that just the keel could be switched out. By your response, that's obviously not the case...
On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 10:01 AM Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Paul. I have the mold…. Most don’t have the money or skill set. A new bottom would require the keel with centerboard trunk, centerboard, Lead ballast and the ability to glass into place. Not a good idea on an old M 15 worth 3 grand. Bob….
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 5, 2021, at 9:55 AM, Paul Baker <avalonjazz@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Dave, Is there a mold of the Montgomery 15 keel somewhere? If I could make a replacement with lead instead of steel, I would. (So I don't have to worry about future pontential problems). Is there anywhere I could go to have a new one made? Paul
On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 7:32 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Bruce.
Sail until the centerboard jams and then think about a repair.
You need to enter the keel from the sides by cutting access through the fiberglass skin. You then hammer/jackhammer out all the steel ballast (cast off centers from manufacturing washers). Weigh the removed ballast so you know how much to put back in. You then create lead bricks - 'cast' them by mixing with resin into forms. You place bricks in keel and bond them in place being sure to keeping the weight distribution right. Now fill voids with thickened resin. Now you fiberglass the keel skin, fair, sand more fairing until the shape is back to original then paint over the repair (type of paint needs to be that designed for full time submersion, not topsides, or just use anti-fouling).
Folks have done the repair. LOTS of work, maybe one of the can share pictures and more details, and why I recommend sailing until the centerboard begins to jam.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Sun, Jul 4, 2021, 10:24 PM Bruce Couchman via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
> Does anyone have information on the best way to replace the iron ballast > inthe keel? > I discovered a leak coming in on the port side about 6” aft of the join of > the keel with the bottom. it is additionally at the first edge of the first > “lap”. > I’m thinking ballast replacement because drilling into the area produced a > lot of rusty water. > Additionally, the lap is longitudinaly angled and protruding instead of > being a fair curve’ > the starboard side is similar but not so pronounced (nor leaking). > > No problem with raising or lowering the centerboard. > Any suggestions would be appreciated
Edward: There is no hard date or hull number. The transition was late-middle-ish 80s. For the M15's two ways to check - Strong magnet Looking under the forward/center cover under the forward end of the vberth. Besides being filled with blocks of flotation foam there is a hump of ballast just forward of the bulkhead just forward of the porta-potti. This is for trim and not present in the lead ballast 15s. For the 17s in general of they have a cast iron centerboard they have steel ballast. If the 17 has a M15 centerboard and a mid-ish-80s boat use a strong magnet as there is a chance the boat has steel ballast. Late-80s and newer 17s have. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 10:41 AM Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
Does anyone know the cutoff date sail number for the transition to lead ballast? Jerry, if you are there, can you weigh in?
Hi Dave, Thanks for clarifying this. I thought only the centerboard could have issues. Are you saying that the keel itself (built into the hull) also can have problems with the steel expanding?? On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 10:13 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Paul the centerboard M15/17/23 have the ballast encapsulated in the hull. The hull is one piece and then the mix of ballast material (steel washer centers on the old boats and lead BBs for those after middle-ish 80s) is poured in.
This is a good thing actually as boats with bolt-on keels have a long list of issues.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 10:09 AM Paul Baker <avalonjazz@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Bob, I thought that just the keel could be switched out. By your response, that's obviously not the case...
On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 10:01 AM Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Paul. I have the mold…. Most don’t have the money or skill set. A new bottom would require the keel with centerboard trunk, centerboard, Lead ballast and the ability to glass into place. Not a good idea on an old M 15 worth 3 grand. Bob….
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 5, 2021, at 9:55 AM, Paul Baker <avalonjazz@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Dave, Is there a mold of the Montgomery 15 keel somewhere? If I could make a replacement with lead instead of steel, I would. (So I don't have to worry about future pontential problems). Is there anywhere I could go to have a new one made? Paul
On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 7:32 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Bruce.
Sail until the centerboard jams and then think about a repair.
You need to enter the keel from the sides by cutting access through the fiberglass skin. You then hammer/jackhammer out all the steel ballast (cast off centers from manufacturing washers). Weigh the removed ballast so you know how much to put back in. You then create lead bricks - 'cast' them by mixing with resin into forms. You place bricks in keel and bond them in place being sure to keeping the weight distribution right. Now fill voids with thickened resin. Now you fiberglass the keel skin, fair, sand more fairing until the shape is back to original then paint over the repair (type of paint needs to be that designed for full time submersion, not topsides, or just use anti-fouling).
Folks have done the repair. LOTS of work, maybe one of the can share pictures and more details, and why I recommend sailing until the centerboard begins to jam.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Sun, Jul 4, 2021, 10:24 PM Bruce Couchman via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Does anyone have information on the best way to replace the iron ballast inthe keel? I discovered a leak coming in on the port side about 6” aft of the join of the keel with the bottom. it is additionally at the first edge of the first “lap”. I’m thinking ballast replacement because drilling into the area produced a lot of rusty water. Additionally, the lap is longitudinaly angled and protruding instead of being a fair curve’ the starboard side is similar but not so pronounced (nor leaking).
No problem with raising or lowering the centerboard. Any suggestions would be appreciated
Paul: Steel ballast rusting in the centerboard or keel of the 15s can happen. For the steel 17s the issue is the keel or cast iron board. A boat having steel ballast can, and likely, is just fine. My '84 15 was fine. My '83 17 is fine (she was moored on Quartermaster Harbor, Vashon Island, Puget Sound, aka saltwater, for over 20 years and now has a new owner that I communicate with multiple times a year). I know significantly more steel MBoats with ZERO issues. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 10:46 AM Paul Baker <avalonjazz@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Dave, Thanks for clarifying this. I thought only the centerboard could have issues. Are you saying that the keel itself (built into the hull) also can have problems with the steel expanding??
On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 10:13 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Paul the centerboard M15/17/23 have the ballast encapsulated in the hull. The hull is one piece and then the mix of ballast material (steel washer centers on the old boats and lead BBs for those after middle-ish 80s) is poured in.
This is a good thing actually as boats with bolt-on keels have a long list of issues.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
Hi Dave, Reading your email just gave me a little piece of mind. I appreciate your input. I will stop thinking about potential problems and enjoy my boat. Paul On Mon, Jul 5, 2021 at 11:02 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Paul:
Steel ballast rusting in the centerboard or keel of the 15s can happen. For the steel 17s the issue is the keel or cast iron board.
A boat having steel ballast can, and likely, is just fine. My '84 15 was fine. My '83 17 is fine (she was moored on Quartermaster Harbor, Vashon Island, Puget Sound, aka saltwater, for over 20 years and now has a new owner that I communicate with multiple times a year). I know significantly more steel MBoats with ZERO issues.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 10:46 AM Paul Baker <avalonjazz@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Dave, Thanks for clarifying this. I thought only the centerboard could have issues. Are you saying that the keel itself (built into the hull) also can have problems with the steel expanding??
On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 10:13 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Paul the centerboard M15/17/23 have the ballast encapsulated in the hull. The hull is one piece and then the mix of ballast material (steel washer centers on the old boats and lead BBs for those after middle-ish 80s) is poured in.
This is a good thing actually as boats with bolt-on keels have a long list of issues.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
-- There are only 3 types of people in the world. Ones that can count and ones that can't.
Thanks guys. So if I understand correctly 1 ) the steel scrap from washer fabrication was imbedded in polyester resin in the well of the molded keel 2) water intrusion due to slow permeability of polyester resin)resulted in expansion due to oxidation( rust takes up space) 3) resulting in fiberglass failure ( cracks perhaps?) 4) resulting also in pinching of drop board ( is it ballasted too? Also rusts and expands?) 5) some (smallish) owners somehow worked from inside to remove and replace ballast, others removed keel sides, reglassed and faired. 6) repairs are a labor of love, as boatyard fees would be more than the boat is worth Correct? Do freshwater boats experience this? ( more slowly?) Thanks, Ed Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 5, 2021, at 12:04 PM, Paul Baker <avalonjazz@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Dave, Reading your email just gave me a little piece of mind. I appreciate your input. I will stop thinking about potential problems and enjoy my boat. Paul
On Mon, Jul 5, 2021 at 11:02 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Paul:
Steel ballast rusting in the centerboard or keel of the 15s can happen. For the steel 17s the issue is the keel or cast iron board.
A boat having steel ballast can, and likely, is just fine. My '84 15 was fine. My '83 17 is fine (she was moored on Quartermaster Harbor, Vashon Island, Puget Sound, aka saltwater, for over 20 years and now has a new owner that I communicate with multiple times a year). I know significantly more steel MBoats with ZERO issues.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 10:46 AM Paul Baker <avalonjazz@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Dave, Thanks for clarifying this. I thought only the centerboard could have issues. Are you saying that the keel itself (built into the hull) also can have problems with the steel expanding??
On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 10:13 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Paul the centerboard M15/17/23 have the ballast encapsulated in the hull. The hull is one piece and then the mix of ballast material (steel washer centers on the old boats and lead BBs for those after middle-ish 80s) is poured in.
This is a good thing actually as boats with bolt-on keels have a long list of issues.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
-- There are only 3 types of people in the world. Ones that can count and ones that can't.
Ed:
the steel scrap from washer fabrication was imbedded in polyester
Mixed and poured into the keel around the centerboard trunk.
water intrusion due to slow permeability of polyester
No. From cracks someplace: around where the bottom of the trunk is bonded to the keel (example of this repair on MSOGphotosite.com or MSOG.org ... I can't remember which), impact damage, and/or around the rotation pin if there is incorrect layup or damage.
resulting also in pinching of drop board ( is it ballasted too? Also rusts and expands?)
The M15 (and 17 post-mid-80s) board is weighted with about 45#. Those filled with steel that have damage can rust and expand and get stuck. The 17s with cast iron boards can experience rusting and the scale, resulting in a wider board, that get stuck. Servicing a cast iron board (sand blasting, sealing, fearing (optional) and applying anti-fouling paint (if boat wet stored)) is done as needed. I serviced my M17 just before selling. The steel ballast if gets wet pinches the centerboard trunk and this sticks the board. Unfair keel shape, aka the port and starboard sides, can also be seen as bulges and/or cracks with weeping rust. A boat with steel can get a sticky board from the the centerboard and/or the keel.
some (smallish) owners somehow worked from inside to remove and replace ballast, others removed keel sides, reglassed and faired.
Yes (IMO easier to make access holes on the sides of the keel than ripping apart the interior).
repairs are a labor of love, as boatyard fees would be more than the boat is worth
Excluding servicing a M17's cast iron board yes.
Do freshwater boats experience this? ( more slowly?
Yes. Speed of rusting depends on how large the cracks/damage are = volume of water entering the steel. Wet ballast is wet ballast. Folks selling any boat (Mboat or not) as 'only used on fresh water' as being better than saltwater are just 'up marketing'. I'll add that M17 named 'ol44' had ballast way way way rusted and had expanded to such an extent it burst out of the keel resulting in catastrophic delamination. The boat had been ignored for a long long long time and it showed. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 12:41 PM Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thanks guys. So if I understand correctly 1 ) the steel scrap from washer fabrication was imbedded in polyester resin in the well of the molded keel 2) water intrusion due to slow permeability of polyester resin)resulted in expansion due to oxidation( rust takes up space) 3) resulting in fiberglass failure ( cracks perhaps?) 4) resulting also in pinching of drop board ( is it ballasted too? Also rusts and expands?) 5) some (smallish) owners somehow worked from inside to remove and replace ballast, others removed keel sides, reglassed and faired. 6) repairs are a labor of love, as boatyard fees would be more than the boat is worth
Correct? Do freshwater boats experience this? ( more slowly?) Thanks, Ed
Thanks, Dave. I’ll expect entropy. Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 5, 2021, at 1:27 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Ed:
the steel scrap from washer fabrication was imbedded in polyester
Mixed and poured into the keel around the centerboard trunk.
water intrusion due to slow permeability of polyester
No. From cracks someplace: around where the bottom of the trunk is bonded to the keel (example of this repair on MSOGphotosite.com or MSOG.org ... I can't remember which), impact damage, and/or around the rotation pin if there is incorrect layup or damage.
resulting also in pinching of drop board ( is it ballasted too? Also rusts and expands?)
The M15 (and 17 post-mid-80s) board is weighted with about 45#. Those filled with steel that have damage can rust and expand and get stuck.
The 17s with cast iron boards can experience rusting and the scale, resulting in a wider board, that get stuck. Servicing a cast iron board (sand blasting, sealing, fearing (optional) and applying anti-fouling paint (if boat wet stored)) is done as needed. I serviced my M17 just before selling.
The steel ballast if gets wet pinches the centerboard trunk and this sticks the board. Unfair keel shape, aka the port and starboard sides, can also be seen as bulges and/or cracks with weeping rust.
A boat with steel can get a sticky board from the the centerboard and/or the keel.
some (smallish) owners somehow worked from inside to remove and replace ballast, others removed keel sides, reglassed and faired.
Yes (IMO easier to make access holes on the sides of the keel than ripping apart the interior).
repairs are a labor of love, as boatyard fees would be more than the boat is worth
Excluding servicing a M17's cast iron board yes.
Do freshwater boats experience this? ( more slowly?
Yes. Speed of rusting depends on how large the cracks/damage are = volume of water entering the steel. Wet ballast is wet ballast. Folks selling any boat (Mboat or not) as 'only used on fresh water' as being better than saltwater are just 'up marketing'.
I'll add that M17 named 'ol44' had ballast way way way rusted and had expanded to such an extent it burst out of the keel resulting in catastrophic delamination. The boat had been ignored for a long long long time and it showed.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 12:41 PM Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thanks guys. So if I understand correctly 1 ) the steel scrap from washer fabrication was imbedded in polyester resin in the well of the molded keel 2) water intrusion due to slow permeability of polyester resin)resulted in expansion due to oxidation( rust takes up space) 3) resulting in fiberglass failure ( cracks perhaps?) 4) resulting also in pinching of drop board ( is it ballasted too? Also rusts and expands?) 5) some (smallish) owners somehow worked from inside to remove and replace ballast, others removed keel sides, reglassed and faired. 6) repairs are a labor of love, as boatyard fees would be more than the boat is worth
Correct? Do freshwater boats experience this? ( more slowly?) Thanks, Ed
As another possible mind-easing anecdote...my M17 with steel ballast had had water in keel since I don't know when, before I bought it anyhow, and as yet no issues. At some point in its life, someone had busted out (busted down, more accurately) the starboard side of the CB stop pin, then done an extremely lame "repair," which I did not discover for a while as the underside & keel was all painted with anti-fouling. It was when I saw a small wet spot under aft end of keel while it was on trailer in driveway after last use of that season that I realized there was a leak. As part of drain, evaluate & repair I drilled several small holes on each side angled upwards into the keel from near the bottom outside edge. Some of the steel punchings came out from several of the holes. They were loose in cavities in the keel, obviously, not all encapsulated in resin. There was some rusty color in the driveway stain from the water dripping out, but the punchings were not particularly rusty, or more often seemed to have a bit of black surface corrosion, thin and relatively slight. FWIW they smelled of machine oil and most I handled seemed to still have a fine film of machine oil on them. Which would reduce corrosion/rusting to some degree, being a barrier on the surface that doesn't mix readily with water. Anyhow nothing has happened with swelling trunk or keel or sticking CB since then - at least 4, maybe 6 years now? When I realized that leak could have been there for years, including possibly in salt water, I stopped worrying about it. If something happens in future I'll deal with it then. cheers, John On 7/5/21 12:41 PM, Edward Epifani wrote:
Thanks guys. So if I understand correctly 1 ) the steel scrap from washer fabrication was imbedded in polyester resin in the well of the molded keel 2) water intrusion due to slow permeability of polyester resin)resulted in expansion due to oxidation( rust takes up space) 3) resulting in fiberglass failure ( cracks perhaps?) 4) resulting also in pinching of drop board ( is it ballasted too? Also rusts and expands?) 5) some (smallish) owners somehow worked from inside to remove and replace ballast, others removed keel sides, reglassed and faired. 6) repairs are a labor of love, as boatyard fees would be more than the boat is worth
Correct? Do freshwater boats experience this? ( more slowly?) Thanks, Ed Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 5, 2021, at 12:04 PM, Paul Baker <avalonjazz@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Dave, Reading your email just gave me a little piece of mind. I appreciate your input. I will stop thinking about potential problems and enjoy my boat. Paul
On Mon, Jul 5, 2021 at 11:02 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Paul:
Steel ballast rusting in the centerboard or keel of the 15s can happen. For the steel 17s the issue is the keel or cast iron board.
A boat having steel ballast can, and likely, is just fine. My '84 15 was fine. My '83 17 is fine (she was moored on Quartermaster Harbor, Vashon Island, Puget Sound, aka saltwater, for over 20 years and now has a new owner that I communicate with multiple times a year). I know significantly more steel MBoats with ZERO issues.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 10:46 AM Paul Baker <avalonjazz@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Dave, Thanks for clarifying this. I thought only the centerboard could have issues. Are you saying that the keel itself (built into the hull) also can have problems with the steel expanding??
On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 10:13 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Paul the centerboard M15/17/23 have the ballast encapsulated in the hull. The hull is one piece and then the mix of ballast material (steel washer centers on the old boats and lead BBs for those after middle-ish 80s) is poured in.
This is a good thing actually as boats with bolt-on keels have a long list of issues.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
-- There are only 3 types of people in the world. Ones that can count and ones that can't.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Exactly what I did with the Pelican. I did all the lead replacement and took it to professional fiber glass and had the hole in the keel repaired. It is not worth it unless, like me, you are attached to the vessel.. With me and the SV Pelican it is for better or worse Good luck and ask me any questions about the process Capt Jim SV Pelican -----Original Message----- From: Paul Baker <avalonjazz@gmail.com> Sent: Monday, July 5, 2021 10:09 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M-15 ballast replacement Hi Bob, I thought that just the keel could be switched out. By your response, that's obviously not the case... On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 10:01 AM Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:
Paul. I have the mold…. Most don’t have the money or skill set. A new bottom would require the keel with centerboard trunk, centerboard, Lead ballast and the ability to glass into place. Not a good idea on an old M 15 worth 3 grand. Bob….
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 5, 2021, at 9:55 AM, Paul Baker <avalonjazz@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Dave, Is there a mold of the Montgomery 15 keel somewhere? If I could make a replacement with lead instead of steel, I would. (So I don't have to worry about future pontential problems). Is there anywhere I could go to have a new one made? Paul
On Mon, Jul 5, 2021, 7:32 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Bruce.
Sail until the centerboard jams and then think about a repair.
You need to enter the keel from the sides by cutting access through the fiberglass skin. You then hammer/jackhammer out all the steel ballast (cast off centers from manufacturing washers). Weigh the removed ballast so you know how much to put back in. You then create lead bricks - 'cast' them by mixing with resin into forms. You place bricks in keel and bond them in place being sure to keeping the weight distribution right. Now fill voids with thickened resin. Now you fiberglass the keel skin, fair, sand more fairing until the shape is back to original then paint over the repair (type of paint needs to be that designed for full time submersion, not topsides, or just use anti-fouling).
Folks have done the repair. LOTS of work, maybe one of the can share pictures and more details, and why I recommend sailing until the centerboard begins to jam.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Sun, Jul 4, 2021, 10:24 PM Bruce Couchman via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Does anyone have information on the best way to replace the iron ballast inthe keel? I discovered a leak coming in on the port side about 6” aft of the join of the keel with the bottom. it is additionally at the first edge of the first “lap”. I’m thinking ballast replacement because drilling into the area produced a lot of rusty water. Additionally, the lap is longitudinaly angled and protruding instead of being a fair curve’ the starboard side is similar but not so pronounced (nor leaking).
No problem with raising or lowering the centerboard. Any suggestions would be appreciated
participants (8)
-
Alex Conley -
Bob Eeg -
Bruce Couchman -
Dave Scobie -
Edward Epifani -
Jim Sadler -
John Schinnerer -
Paul Baker