Re: M_Boats: Pardey Project
Very well said, connie Just 1 thing to think about: airplanes stopped using shrouds to support the mings years ago, so why do we need them Eldor M17 Motu iti -----Original Message----- From: Conbert H. Benneck <chbenneck@sbcglobal.net> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Fri, Jul 16, 2010 9:50 am Subject: Re: M_Boats: Pardey Project Howard Audsley wrote: Howard, You are so right! The sea and its moods haven't changed, but designers feel that any echnical tweaking, - spaghetti diameter masts with triple spreaders and ons of rigging to keep things in line - and deep fin keels that sheer ut of the bottom of the boat if you hit something solid; ( I've ersonally seen some examples of this at Noank Shipyard, where the wners hit nice solid New England rocks at hull speed) and spade rudders hose upper edge will snag lobster pot warps and firmly wedge them in lace so that you can't steer, any chance they get. The answer is simple: sea-going boats have to be built for that urpose. the danger of a mast failure is not something I want to live ith for the sake of an extra 0.2 knot speed advantage. Decks are for ork that has to be done a a boat. 7 degree sheeting angles, and hrouds going through the middle of your deck may be excellent for merica's Cup racers who go home every evening after the race; but are ousy if they impede your progress to the foredeck. (and if you can't arry a case of beer from the bow to the cockpit without learning how to ance the racing shroud rigging ballet first) degree shroud angles also add tremendous loads to the rigging trying o keep the mast in place. Much higher loads on all the fittings and if ne fails, its bye-bye mast. ydraulic backstay adjusters are another engineering idiocy. There is o way you can keep the leading edge of your forestay straight; I don't are how many tons of pressure you add to it. All you eventually do is rive the mast through the bottom of the boat. If you don't believe me, ift the lid on a grand piano and push down on one of the high note trings. You can depress it; and it has very high loads (which is why he base for all the strings is a huge cast iron casting to take the ncredible loads caused by the tensioned strings). The old CCA design rules resulted in healthy, long lived, excellent sea oats. The IOR Rule, which later came into use, results in disposable acing boats; if something breaks; or the mast goes overboard; holler AYDAY, and when rescued, order a new and better boat with more gimmicks.... Nah! The old designers had it right, which is why Hinckley in Maine is till building Bermuda 40s to order, designed by Bill Tripp in the mid-60's. Design conservatism gets you home again; modern design, where anything hat breaks is a disaster, doesn't. My two cents worth Connie
The topic never came up here, but hits a hot button with me.
When you look at the backbone structure of a boat like Serrafyn, you realize she was built to go to sea. She could take it. I compare that with the recent news where a 16 year old girl was sent out by loving parents to sail around the world on a 40 foot racing sled. Her boat fell apart in the same waters where the Pardeys rode out a hurricane and came out the other side with nothing more that a blown out sail and confidence the boat would protect them from almost anything. The point being the stupidity of sending out a 16 year old (or anyone else for that matter) in a technology dependent death trap. Larry had it right. On Jul 15, 2010, at 1:52 PM, bownez@juno.com wrote:
Anyone looking for a BIG winter project??
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/boa/1842501480.html
Bones ____________________________________________________________ PennyStocks Soaring 600% Sign up for FREE email alerts on stocks that jump 600% and more! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4c3f595350e88291642st04vuc _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
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Eldor, I thought the Mings only used junk rigs?? Stan --- On Fri, 7/16/10, eisenee@aol.com <eisenee@aol.com> wrote: From: eisenee@aol.com <eisenee@aol.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Pardey Project To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Date: Friday, July 16, 2010, 4:37 PM Very well said, connie Just 1 thing to think about: airplanes stopped using shrouds to support the mings years ago, so why do we need them Eldor M17 Motu iti -----Original Message----- From: Conbert H. Benneck <chbenneck@sbcglobal.net> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Fri, Jul 16, 2010 9:50 am Subject: Re: M_Boats: Pardey Project Howard Audsley wrote: Howard, You are so right! The sea and its moods haven't changed, but designers feel that any echnical tweaking, - spaghetti diameter masts with triple spreaders and ons of rigging to keep things in line - and deep fin keels that sheer ut of the bottom of the boat if you hit something solid; ( I've ersonally seen some examples of this at Noank Shipyard, where the wners hit nice solid New England rocks at hull speed) and spade rudders hose upper edge will snag lobster pot warps and firmly wedge them in lace so that you can't steer, any chance they get. The answer is simple: sea-going boats have to be built for that urpose. the danger of a mast failure is not something I want to live ith for the sake of an extra 0.2 knot speed advantage. Decks are for ork that has to be done a a boat. 7 degree sheeting angles, and hrouds going through the middle of your deck may be excellent for merica's Cup racers who go home every evening after the race; but are ousy if they impede your progress to the foredeck. (and if you can't arry a case of beer from the bow to the cockpit without learning how to ance the racing shroud rigging ballet first) degree shroud angles also add tremendous loads to the rigging trying o keep the mast in place. Much higher loads on all the fittings and if ne fails, its bye-bye mast. ydraulic backstay adjusters are another engineering idiocy. There is o way you can keep the leading edge of your forestay straight; I don't are how many tons of pressure you add to it. All you eventually do is rive the mast through the bottom of the boat. If you don't believe me, ift the lid on a grand piano and push down on one of the high note trings. You can depress it; and it has very high loads (which is why he base for all the strings is a huge cast iron casting to take the ncredible loads caused by the tensioned strings). The old CCA design rules resulted in healthy, long lived, excellent sea oats. The IOR Rule, which later came into use, results in disposable acing boats; if something breaks; or the mast goes overboard; holler AYDAY, and when rescued, order a new and better boat with more gimmicks.... Nah! The old designers had it right, which is why Hinckley in Maine is till building Bermuda 40s to order, designed by Bill Tripp in the mid-60's. Design conservatism gets you home again; modern design, where anything hat breaks is a disaster, doesn't. My two cents worth Connie
The topic never came up here, but hits a hot button with me.
When you look at the backbone structure of a boat like Serrafyn, you realize she was built to go to sea. She could take it. I compare that with the recent news where a 16 year old girl was sent out by loving parents to sail around the world on a 40 foot racing sled. Her boat fell apart in the same waters where the Pardeys rode out a hurricane and came out the other side with nothing more that a blown out sail and confidence the boat would protect them from almost anything. The point being the stupidity of sending out a 16 year old (or anyone else for that matter) in a technology dependent death trap. Larry had it right. On Jul 15, 2010, at 1:52 PM, bownez@juno.com wrote:
Anyone looking for a BIG winter project??
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/boa/1842501480.html
Bones ____________________________________________________________ PennyStocks Soaring 600% Sign up for FREE email alerts on stocks that jump 600% and more! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4c3f595350e88291642st04vuc _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! ______________________________________________ ttp://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Stan Susman wrote: Hi Eidor, You're right, airplanes gave up wire bracing for wings eons ago. Some sailboats have done that too. I owned a Bolger MICRO that had a free standing main mast and mizzen mast. Never had a problem with that. The main mast was stepped in a forward well and locked in place. However, if you don't step your mast on the keel, and run it through the coach roof which will hold it in place, how do you keep the deck mounted mast in place without using a lot of shrouds? Something has to take care of all the sail loads as the wind pressure builds... Connie
Eldor, I thought the Mings only used junk rigs??
Stan
--- On Fri, 7/16/10, eisenee@aol.com <eisenee@aol.com> wrote:
From: eisenee@aol.com <eisenee@aol.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Pardey Project To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Date: Friday, July 16, 2010, 4:37 PM
Very well said, connie Just 1 thing to think about: airplanes stopped using shrouds to support the mings years ago, so why do we need them Eldor M17 Motu iti
-----Original Message----- From: Conbert H. Benneck <chbenneck@sbcglobal.net> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Fri, Jul 16, 2010 9:50 am Subject: Re: M_Boats: Pardey Project
Howard Audsley wrote: Howard, You are so right! The sea and its moods haven't changed, but designers feel that any echnical tweaking, - spaghetti diameter masts with triple spreaders and ons of rigging to keep things in line - and deep fin keels that sheer ut of the bottom of the boat if you hit something solid; ( I've ersonally seen some examples of this at Noank Shipyard, where the wners hit nice solid New England rocks at hull speed) and spade rudders hose upper edge will snag lobster pot warps and firmly wedge them in lace so that you can't steer, any chance they get. The answer is simple: sea-going boats have to be built for that urpose. the danger of a mast failure is not something I want to live ith for the sake of an extra 0.2 knot speed advantage. Decks are for ork that has to be done a a boat. 7 degree sheeting angles, and hrouds going through the middle of your deck may be excellent for merica's Cup racers who go home every evening after the race; but are ousy if they impede your progress to the foredeck. (and if you can't arry a case of beer from the bow to the cockpit without learning how to ance the racing shroud rigging ballet first) degree shroud angles also add tremendous loads to the rigging trying o keep the mast in place. Much higher loads on all the fittings and if ne fails, its bye-bye mast. ydraulic backstay adjusters are another engineering idiocy. There is o way you can keep the leading edge of your forestay straight; I don't are how many tons of pressure you add to it. All you eventually do is rive the mast through the bottom of the boat. If you don't believe me, ift the lid on a grand piano and push down on one of the high note trings. You can depress it; and it has very high loads (which is why he base for all the strings is a huge cast iron casting to take the ncredible loads caused by the tensioned strings). The old CCA design rules resulted in healthy, long lived, excellent sea oats. The IOR Rule, which later came into use, results in disposable acing boats; if something breaks; or the mast goes overboard; holler AYDAY, and when rescued, order a new and better boat with more gimmicks.... Nah! The old designers had it right, which is why Hinckley in Maine is till building Bermuda 40s to order, designed by Bill Tripp in the mid-60's. Design conservatism gets you home again; modern design, where anything hat breaks is a disaster, doesn't. My two cents worth Connie
The topic never came up here, but hits a hot button with me.
When you look at the backbone structure of a boat like Serrafyn, you realize she was built to go to sea. She could take it.
I compare that with the recent news where a 16 year old girl was sent out by loving parents to sail around the world on a 40 foot racing sled. Her boat fell apart in the same waters where the Pardeys rode out a hurricane and came out the other side with nothing more that a blown out sail and confidence the boat would protect them from almost anything.
The point being the stupidity of sending out a 16 year old (or anyone else for that matter) in a technology dependent death trap.
Larry had it right.
On Jul 15, 2010, at 1:52 PM, bownez@juno.com wrote:
Anyone looking for a BIG winter project??
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/boa/1842501480.html
Bones ____________________________________________________________ PennyStocks Soaring 600% Sign up for FREE email alerts on stocks that jump 600% and more! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4c3f595350e88291642st04vuc _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
______________________________________________ ttp://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet! _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
participants (3)
-
Conbert H. Benneck -
eisenee＠aol.com -
Stan Susman