Here is a thought: I rigged a downhaul on a P15 some time ago and thoughtlessly put the line inside the hanks and through a small bottom swivel block near the forward shroud connection and on back to the cockpit. I'm so smart I was thinking. I'm on SF Bay with a good wind blowing with heavy gusts, threatening to lay the Potter over, I had a reefed main so I pulled on the downhaul... I had a quick release pin on the bottom shroud connection (makes rigging quicker I was told) and I guess you can imagine how exciting it got when the mast fell back into the cockpit. I think the lesson is, take care where you run the downhaul. Maybe even, be careful where you put those push button quick release pins. Wish I had a video of that one. I believe I could have re-hoisted the mast if it was a Monty 15, but one does not wander about the forward deck of a Potter 15, in the middle of SF Bay! So, I motored for better than an hour, hoping no one of the hundreds of boats was watching as I dragged the mast, boom, mainsail, etc, into a Marina to re-rig. Even though my fault, that was when I decided the P15 had to go. Yea I know... dumb A%&! Bill On Jan 6, 2008 12:45 PM, Chris and Jeff Packer <cjpacker@theofficenet.com> wrote:

Yes, downhauls are great. I've had them on my last 2 boats and you can drop the jib from the cockpit so fast... especially when your sailing up to a dock or mooring buoy. They also have the advantage of being able to tie the jib down from the cockpit so its not trying to run itself back up in strong wind.

Jeff

----- Original Message ----- From: <Nebwest2@aol.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 9:34 AM Subject: M_Boats: Re: M17 heavy weather capabilities

...

I'd have to second Gary's observations about the M17 hatch. I'm a pretty big boy and honestly I never tried it. My 17 had the backwards opening front hatch, so even if you fit, the hatch lid would prevent you from leaning forward. In this photo you can see the hinges are on the front of the hatch and that there's no way you'd be able to work around it to deal with the luff of the jib.

_http://msogphotosite.com/MSOG/b17thomps/b17thomps7.jpg_ (http://msogphotosite.com/MSOG/b17thomps/b17thomps7.jpg)

On later versions and I believe the new M17's that Bob builds the hatch opens from the front... Hey Gary H.! Doesn't your hatch open from the front??? Could you manage a headsail change through it??? (http://msogphotosite.com/MSOG/b17thomps/b17thomps7.jpg) Lately, I have been experimenting for the first time ever (for me) with a simple downhaul attached to the jib/genoa head. Holly cow, why I never did this before is beyond me. I don't mind going forward and pulling a sail down when someone's on the helm but when singlehanding it's a pain. When I'm alone I try to make sure I don't overcanvass for the conditions, but if I do, now I can at least get the sail down on the deck and secure before I ever leave the relative safety of the cockpit. It also allows me to hank on a jib at the dock , and attach the halyard without worry that the halyard is going to foul something by swinging around slack before I'm ready to raise it. I just hook up the downhaul and tension the halyard. I know, I know, roller furling would solve that issue. Someday I may go back to a furler, but for now I'm happy with hank-ons.

Sean

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

" We're talking about an M17 here, right?"

That was what I was thinking as well Tom.....that he must have meant a 15. Although it has been three months since the boat was put to bed for hibernation, I seem to recall that distance being much too far to reach the forestay at any point let alone the stemhead. Either way. A down haul is about as easy as it gets. It is actually faster than a roller in a panic and costs next to nothing. When we adopted our 17 it had a CDI roller unit on there. At first it was a fun new toy....Daphne, my wife, actually loved the thing....but I ended up taking it off and having the 155 converted to hank on. There were a few aspects of the roller that bothered me and limited my sailing style. I like the correct sail for the occasion. You are stuck with whatever is on your furler. Even though ours was a 'reefing' furler, the mods that are done to the sail to be able to do this are not acceptable in my mind....all that line and foam stuff sewn into the sail.....nutty. Anything other than full sail was a compromise as far as sail shape goes. You could get by on a rolled reef on anything bellow a beamer....but even forereaching the sails shape sucked. The secondary parts of the roller that pushed me to convert back to basics was it was awkward to stow when taking down rig. And when the sail was rolled up it presented a huge amount of windage. If you consider the layers here it was one huge mother of a sausage sticking way up there. With a reefing sail you have the foam and stuff, then in some cases (such as mine) the UV protective layer, then accounting for the fact that it is a 155 with all the material involved here....and in my case I have a Sunbrella cover for when the boat is left fully rigged on trailer for most of the season. That is huge. Even without the Sunbrella cover. One June afternoon I was at the boat doing some work when one of our Okanagan Ninja winds passed through. Standing on deck and feeling the amount of pressure on the rig and boat coming via the big blue sausage was the last time the roller saw the light of day. If the trailer wheels weren't chocked, we might have trailer sailed right across the marina parking lot. With the big blue banana gone there is almost no windage effect on the boat. I could see going back to roller(s) if I converted to a cutter rig and different style rollers. That way you could sail with a 130 on the forestay or the staysl on the inner....or both. Both could be furled or set from the cockpit. As far as being on or getting to the foredeck on a 17. Piece of cake. Just remember the old saying, "one hand for you and one hand for the boat". There is lots to hang on to on a 17. Once I am on the foredeck there is a great area for standing or kneeling and doing headsail changes. I have been out there and had bow buried deep enough in a trough to get me very wet. At no time have I felt threatened enough to be bothered. If the conditions are bad enough I sit on the hatch as soon as I get up there and then slide my butt down to the deck, then either butt my heels into the toe rail or hang my legs (from the knees) over the side while I do whatever needs doing. The life lines are right there at that point so hang on to one if you can, when you can't, just keep in mind where they are for one you might need to snatch one up. It is always exciting, but that's the fun part of sailing.....for me anyway. I am no super youngster. I am about 20 lbs. overweight (but very active and healthy) 51 year old. I feel that if someone is not able move freely about the decks or to get on the foredeck of their sailboat to make a sail change to fix something that is broken, then they should consider a physical training program or look at a taking up a different hobby. The decks and foredeck are a vital area of any sailboat and you need to be able to work there. As much as sailing is fun and relaxing at times, it can also be wicked serious as well. A roller will not always prevent the need for your presence on the foredeck....those thing jam. Mine did, and I read about failures now and again. There is not one piece of gear on a sailboat I would trust to work all the time. Oh right, one tool not mentioned that makes foredeck work easier........beer. ~:0) That's my humble opinion and I am sticking to it until I forget what I said......2 Canadian cents worth. Cheers, Tim Diebert M17 #369 'Puff' Kelowna BC....(currently in hibernation and experiencing 31 degrees, snow on the way and 28 knot gusts.) .............................................................. Tom said: We're talking about an M17 here, right? You aren't reaching the forestay from the hatch regardless of where the hinges are. It's too far. If you're changing sails, you're going out on the deck. Lacking roller furling, use the downhaul to get the headsail down until you can get your act together. t -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of edward haile Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 12:02 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: RE: M_Boats: Re: M17 heavy weather capabilities My previous email was written without reviewing some of your comments here. But what would you think of this idea? Turn the hatch hinges around (BoB Eeg told me something about how the law will require sooner or later foreward hinges so he's doing it now). This will allow you to standup and reach the forestay easily. Cast off the jib tack and jib halyard and you are there. You can now pull the peak and the tack together and snap on another jib. Or, if the wind is really screaming, depending on how much slack you build into the tack and peak lines, you could haul the jib, still attached top and bottom, through the hatch and change sails in the cabin, reemerge and let go the new sail and reset it with the two lines. What's the boat doing in the meantime (if you're alone)? What if you raised the rudder out of the water and sheeted the main down amidships. Shouldn't the boat weathercock? The forefoot shd dig in from your weight and the stern will have little lateral resistance. The centerboard down might be a problem. What's yr take on this? ED> From: Nebwest2@aol.com> Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:34:00 -0500> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M17 heavy weather capabilities> > I'd have to second Gary's observations about the M17 hatch. I'm a pretty big > boy and honestly I never tried it. My 17 had the backwards opening front > hatch, so even if you fit, the hatch lid would prevent you from leaning forward. > In this photo you can see the hinges are on the front of the hatch and that > there's no way you'd be able to work around it to deal with the luff of the > jib.> > _http://msogphotosite.com/MSOG/b17thomps/b17thomps7.jpg_ > (http://msogphotosite.com/MSOG/b17thomps/b17thomps7.jpg) > > On later versions and I believe the new M17's that Bob builds the hatch > opens from the front...> Hey Gary H.! Doesn't your hatch open from the front??? Could you manage a > headsail change through it???> (http://msogphotosite.com/MSOG/b17thomps/b17thomps7.jpg) > Lately, I have been experimenting for the first time ever (for me) with a > simple downhaul attached to the jib/genoa head. Holly cow, why I never did this > before is beyond me. I don't mind going forward and pulling a sail down when > someone's on the helm but when singlehanding it's a pain. When I'm alone I > try to make sure I don't overcanvass for the conditions, but if I do, now I can > at least get the sail down on the deck and secure before I ever leave the > relative safety of the cockpit. It also allows me to hank on a jib at the dock > , and attach the halyard without worry that the halyard is going to foul > something by swinging around slack before I'm ready to raise it. I just hook up > the downhaul and tension the halyard. I know, I know, roller furling would > solve that issue. Someday I may go back to a furler, but for now I'm happy with > hank-ons.> > Sean> > > > **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. > http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489> _______________________________________________> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008_ ______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.7/1233 - Release Date: 1/19/2008 6:37 PM

Right on, as they say. -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Tim Diebert Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 8:13 AM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Subject: RE: M_Boats: Re: M17 heavy weather capabilities

" We're talking about an M17 here, right?"

That was what I was thinking as well Tom.....that he must have meant a 15. Although it has been three months since the boat was put to bed for hibernation, I seem to recall that distance being much too far to reach the forestay at any point let alone the stemhead. Either way. A down haul is about as easy as it gets. It is actually faster than a roller in a panic and costs next to nothing. When we adopted our 17 it had a CDI roller unit on there. At first it was a fun new toy....Daphne, my wife, actually loved the thing....but I ended up taking it off and having the 155 converted to hank on. There were a few aspects of the roller that bothered me and limited my sailing style. I like the correct sail for the occasion. You are stuck with whatever is on your furler. Even though ours was a 'reefing' furler, the mods that are done to the sail to be able to do this are not acceptable in my mind....all that line and foam stuff sewn into the sail.....nutty. Anything other than full sail was a compromise as far as sail shape goes. You could get by on a rolled reef on anything bellow a beamer....but even forereaching the sails shape sucked. The secondary parts of the roller that pushed me to convert back to basics was it was awkward to stow when taking down rig. And when the sail was rolled up it presented a huge amount of windage. If you consider the layers here it was one huge mother of a sausage sticking way up there. With a reefing sail you have the foam and stuff, then in some cases (such as mine) the UV protective layer, then accounting for the fact that it is a 155 with all the material involved here....and in my case I have a Sunbrella cover for when the boat is left fully rigged on trailer for most of the season. That is huge. Even without the Sunbrella cover. One June afternoon I was at the boat doing some work when one of our Okanagan Ninja winds passed through. Standing on deck and feeling the amount of pressure on the rig and boat coming via the big blue sausage was the last time the roller saw the light of day. If the trailer wheels weren't chocked, we might have trailer sailed right across the marina parking lot. With the big blue banana gone there is almost no windage effect on the boat. I could see going back to roller(s) if I converted to a cutter rig and different style rollers. That way you could sail with a 130 on the forestay or the staysl on the inner....or both. Both could be furled or set from the cockpit. As far as being on or getting to the foredeck on a 17. Piece of cake. Just remember the old saying, "one hand for you and one hand for the boat". There is lots to hang on to on a 17. Once I am on the foredeck there is a great area for standing or kneeling and doing headsail changes. I have been out there and had bow buried deep enough in a trough to get me very wet. At no time have I felt threatened enough to be bothered. If the conditions are bad enough I sit on the hatch as soon as I get up there and then slide my butt down to the deck, then either butt my heels into the toe rail or hang my legs (from the knees) over the side while I do whatever needs doing. The life lines are right there at that point so hang on to one if you can, when you can't, just keep in mind where they are for one you might need to snatch one up. It is always exciting, but that's the fun part of sailing.....for me anyway. I am no super youngster. I am about 20 lbs. overweight (but very active and healthy) 51 year old. I feel that if someone is not able move freely about the decks or to get on the foredeck of their sailboat to make a sail change to fix something that is broken, then they should consider a physical training program or look at a taking up a different hobby. The decks and foredeck are a vital area of any sailboat and you need to be able to work there. As much as sailing is fun and relaxing at times, it can also be wicked serious as well. A roller will not always prevent the need for your presence on the foredeck....those thing jam. Mine did, and I read about failures now and again. There is not one piece of gear on a sailboat I would trust to work all the time. Oh right, one tool not mentioned that makes foredeck work easier........beer. ~:0) That's my humble opinion and I am sticking to it until I forget what I said......2 Canadian cents worth. Cheers, Tim Diebert M17 #369 'Puff' Kelowna BC....(currently in hibernation and experiencing 31 degrees, snow on the way and 28 knot gusts.) .............................................................. Tom said: We're talking about an M17 here, right? You aren't reaching the forestay from the hatch regardless of where the hinges are. It's too far. If you're changing sails, you're going out on the deck. Lacking roller furling, use the downhaul to get the headsail down until you can get your act together. t -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of edward haile Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 12:02 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: RE: M_Boats: Re: M17 heavy weather capabilities My previous email was written without reviewing some of your comments here. But what would you think of this idea? Turn the hatch hinges around (BoB Eeg told me something about how the law will require sooner or later foreward hinges so he's doing it now). This will allow you to standup and reach the forestay easily. Cast off the jib tack and jib halyard and you are there. You can now pull the peak and the tack together and snap on another jib. Or, if the wind is really screaming, depending on how much slack you build into the tack and peak lines, you could haul the jib, still attached top and bottom, through the hatch and change sails in the cabin, reemerge and let go the new sail and reset it with the two lines. What's the boat doing in the meantime (if you're alone)? What if you raised the rudder out of the water and sheeted the main down amidships. Shouldn't the boat weathercock? The forefoot shd dig in from your weight and the stern will have little lateral resistance. The centerboard down might be a problem. What's yr take on this? ED> From: Nebwest2@aol.com> Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:34:00 -0500> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M17 heavy weather capabilities> > I'd have to second Gary's observations about the M17 hatch. I'm a pretty big > boy and honestly I never tried it. My 17 had the backwards opening front > hatch, so even if you fit, the hatch lid would prevent you from leaning forward. > In this photo you can see the hinges are on the front of the hatch and that > there's no way you'd be able to work around it to deal with the luff of the > jib.> > _http://msogphotosite.com/MSOG/b17thomps/b17thomps7.jpg_ > (http://msogphotosite.com/MSOG/b17thomps/b17thomps7.jpg) > > On later versions and I believe the new M17's that Bob builds the hatch > opens from the front...> Hey Gary H.! Doesn't your hatch open from the front??? Could you manage a > headsail change through it???> (http://msogphotosite.com/MSOG/b17thomps/b17thomps7.jpg) > Lately, I have been experimenting for the first time ever (for me) with a > simple downhaul attached to the jib/genoa head. Holly cow, why I never did this > before is beyond me. I don't mind going forward and pulling a sail down when > someone's on the helm but when singlehanding it's a pain. When I'm alone I > try to make sure I don't overcanvass for the conditions, but if I do, now I can > at least get the sail down on the deck and secure before I ever leave the > relative safety of the cockpit. It also allows me to hank on a jib at the dock > , and attach the halyard without worry that the halyard is going to foul > something by swinging around slack before I'm ready to raise it. I just hook up > the downhaul and tension the halyard. I know, I know, roller furling would > solve that issue. Someday I may go back to a furler, but for now I'm happy with > hank-ons.> > Sean> > > > **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. > http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489> _______________________________________________> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008_ ______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.7/1233 - Release Date: 1/19/2008 6:37 PM _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

Hmmmmmm.......then I am assuming to bring the 70's out in them Tom. Keep on truckin brother. -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Tom Smith Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 10:13 AM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Subject: RE: M_Boats: Re: M17 heavy weather capabilities They haven't said right on for some time, Tim. -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Tom Jenkins Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 9:15 PM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Subject: RE: M_Boats: Re: M17 heavy weather capabilities Right on, as they say. _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.8/1235 - Release Date: 1/21/2008 9:39 AM

I haven't used roller-furling on an M-boat, but agree with Tim's thoughts on foredeck work and hank-on jibs. I wouldn't attempt changing jibs on an M-15 while standing, unless maybe it was flat calm. While sitting, you can reach the pulpit, mast and forestay without moving your butt! Bill Riker M-15 - Storm Petrel -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Tim Diebert Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 9:13 AM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Subject: RE: M_Boats: Re: M17 heavy weather capabilities

" We're talking about an M17 here, right?"

That was what I was thinking as well Tom.....that he must have meant a 15. Although it has been three months since the boat was put to bed for hibernation, I seem to recall that distance being much too far to reach the forestay at any point let alone the stemhead. Either way. A down haul is about as easy as it gets. It is actually faster than a roller in a panic and costs next to nothing. When we adopted our 17 it had a CDI roller unit on there. At first it was a fun new toy....Daphne, my wife, actually loved the thing....but I ended up taking it off and having the 155 converted to hank on. There were a few aspects of the roller that bothered me and limited my sailing style. I like the correct sail for the occasion. You are stuck with whatever is on your furler. Even though ours was a 'reefing' furler, the mods that are done to the sail to be able to do this are not acceptable in my mind....all that line and foam stuff sewn into the sail.....nutty. Anything other than full sail was a compromise as far as sail shape goes. You could get by on a rolled reef on anything bellow a beamer....but even forereaching the sails shape sucked. The secondary parts of the roller that pushed me to convert back to basics was it was awkward to stow when taking down rig. And when the sail was rolled up it presented a huge amount of windage. If you consider the layers here it was one huge mother of a sausage sticking way up there. With a reefing sail you have the foam and stuff, then in some cases (such as mine) the UV protective layer, then accounting for the fact that it is a 155 with all the material involved here....and in my case I have a Sunbrella cover for when the boat is left fully rigged on trailer for most of the season. That is huge. Even without the Sunbrella cover. One June afternoon I was at the boat doing some work when one of our Okanagan Ninja winds passed through. Standing on deck and feeling the amount of pressure on the rig and boat coming via the big blue sausage was the last time the roller saw the light of day. If the trailer wheels weren't chocked, we might have trailer sailed right across the marina parking lot. With the big blue banana gone there is almost no windage effect on the boat. I could see going back to roller(s) if I converted to a cutter rig and different style rollers. That way you could sail with a 130 on the forestay or the staysl on the inner....or both. Both could be furled or set from the cockpit. As far as being on or getting to the foredeck on a 17. Piece of cake. Just remember the old saying, "one hand for you and one hand for the boat". There is lots to hang on to on a 17. Once I am on the foredeck there is a great area for standing or kneeling and doing headsail changes. I have been out there and had bow buried deep enough in a trough to get me very wet. At no time have I felt threatened enough to be bothered. If the conditions are bad enough I sit on the hatch as soon as I get up there and then slide my butt down to the deck, then either butt my heels into the toe rail or hang my legs (from the knees) over the side while I do whatever needs doing. The life lines are right there at that point so hang on to one if you can, when you can't, just keep in mind where they are for one you might need to snatch one up. It is always exciting, but that's the fun part of sailing.....for me anyway. I am no super youngster. I am about 20 lbs. overweight (but very active and healthy) 51 year old. I feel that if someone is not able move freely about the decks or to get on the foredeck of their sailboat to make a sail change to fix something that is broken, then they should consider a physical training program or look at a taking up a different hobby. The decks and foredeck are a vital area of any sailboat and you need to be able to work there. As much as sailing is fun and relaxing at times, it can also be wicked serious as well. A roller will not always prevent the need for your presence on the foredeck....those thing jam. Mine did, and I read about failures now and again. There is not one piece of gear on a sailboat I would trust to work all the time. Oh right, one tool not mentioned that makes foredeck work easier........beer. ~:0) That's my humble opinion and I am sticking to it until I forget what I said......2 Canadian cents worth. Cheers, Tim Diebert M17 #369 'Puff' Kelowna BC....(currently in hibernation and experiencing 31 degrees, snow on the way and 28 knot gusts.) .............................................................. Tom said: We're talking about an M17 here, right? You aren't reaching the forestay from the hatch regardless of where the hinges are. It's too far. If you're changing sails, you're going out on the deck. Lacking roller furling, use the downhaul to get the headsail down until you can get your act together. t -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of edward haile Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 12:02 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: RE: M_Boats: Re: M17 heavy weather capabilities My previous email was written without reviewing some of your comments here. But what would you think of this idea? Turn the hatch hinges around (BoB Eeg told me something about how the law will require sooner or later foreward hinges so he's doing it now). This will allow you to standup and reach the forestay easily. Cast off the jib tack and jib halyard and you are there. You can now pull the peak and the tack together and snap on another jib. Or, if the wind is really screaming, depending on how much slack you build into the tack and peak lines, you could haul the jib, still attached top and bottom, through the hatch and change sails in the cabin, reemerge and let go the new sail and reset it with the two lines. What's the boat doing in the meantime (if you're alone)? What if you raised the rudder out of the water and sheeted the main down amidships. Shouldn't the boat weathercock? The forefoot shd dig in from your weight and the stern will have little lateral resistance. The centerboard down might be a problem. What's yr take on this? ED> From: Nebwest2@aol.com> Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 12:34:00 -0500> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M17 heavy weather capabilities> > I'd have to second Gary's observations about the M17 hatch. I'm a pretty big > boy and honestly I never tried it. My 17 had the backwards opening front > hatch, so even if you fit, the hatch lid would prevent you from leaning forward. > In this photo you can see the hinges are on the front of the hatch and that > there's no way you'd be able to work around it to deal with the luff of the > jib.> > _http://msogphotosite.com/MSOG/b17thomps/b17thomps7.jpg_ > (http://msogphotosite.com/MSOG/b17thomps/b17thomps7.jpg) > > On later versions and I believe the new M17's that Bob builds the hatch > opens from the front...> Hey Gary H.! Doesn't your hatch open from the front??? Could you manage a > headsail change through it???> (http://msogphotosite.com/MSOG/b17thomps/b17thomps7.jpg) > Lately, I have been experimenting for the first time ever (for me) with a > simple downhaul attached to the jib/genoa head. Holly cow, why I never did this > before is beyond me. I don't mind going forward and pulling a sail down when > someone's on the helm but when singlehanding it's a pain. When I'm alone I > try to make sure I don't overcanvass for the conditions, but if I do, now I can > at least get the sail down on the deck and secure before I ever leave the > relative safety of the cockpit. It also allows me to hank on a jib at the dock > , and attach the halyard without worry that the halyard is going to foul > something by swinging around slack before I'm ready to raise it. I just hook up > the downhaul and tension the halyard. I know, I know, roller furling would > solve that issue. Someday I may go back to a furler, but for now I'm happy with > hank-ons.> > Sean> > > > **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. > http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489> _______________________________________________> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008_ ______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.7/1233 - Release Date: 1/19/2008 6:37 PM _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

Does anyone else think it is not the government's job to decide which way a hatch is hinged?

if this is a gov't regulation it is saying that the hatch must open to blocks the wind means the cabin get little airflow when at anchor ... which to me is one reason that the M17 has a forward hatch. the US gov't (and the persons that elect the gov't) love the idea the a safe and risk free world can be legislated. much like the wonderful sticker i now must have in the cabin of my M15 that says that CO kills ... REALLY!?!? the pamphlet that came with the sticker not once talked about sailboat or pictured a sailboat. add to that the majority of the pamphlet talked about the dangers of swim step surfing ... david scobie M15 #288, not yet named Tom Jenkins <tjenk@gte.net> wrote: My M17 hatch is hinged forward, which I think might keep the unwary from scooping up a big dollop of green water down the hatch. Either way, I concur that the headstay is too far to reach from the hatch. How about wearing one of those nice combo life jacket/harnesses, and snap temporarily to the pulpit or to a transverse line between the teak handholds? You might even be able to rig a miniature jackline. Fact is, though, I suspect that most folks will find lots of things to wedge against while working the deck on a little boat like this. Does anyone else think it is not the government's job to decide which way a hatch is hinged? Tom Jenkins --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Well said. I am sure Bob has considered all the angles before keeping the hatch and hinging it forward. I do worry about someone who cannot remember to dog down the forward hatch cover when the boat is on a trailer, since the thing could just as well fly up in a gust while sailing and gulp down a wave. Anyway, I think an opening a few inches from the main hatch on a boat this size is unnecessary, unless the cabin top needs the extra strength around the mast step. But give us the wisdom to accept things we cannot change without extensive fiberglass work. I have a slightly smaller boat in my stable (the brand of which I dare not mention) with a flush cap at the bow that can be removed to screw in a dorade vent; perhaps a cleaner solution for ventilation, and somewhat closer to idiot-proof. Since I do have that beautiful hatch cover I will probably never open, I might just try to find a flexible solar cell that covers the unit and keeps the battery charged. How green is that? Wicked gnarly, dude, and way rad. Tom Jenkins M17 Scintilla (2004 vintage) My Body (much earlier vintage) -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces+tjenk=gte.net@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces+tjenk=gte.net@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Tom Smith Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 3:53 PM To: 'For and about Montgomery Sailboats' Subject: RE: M_Boats: Re: hatch direction Unless I'm mistaken, Bob bought or licensed the rights to use an M17 deck mold (among other molds) that included a hatch designed to hinge forward. Possible Bob changed that, but because the deck is molded to include raised mounting areas for the hinges, I doubt it. Perhaps Bob will correct me if I'm wrong... I believe that Jerry changed the configurations on the newer deck mold (what...post '82?) because of concerns that some fool (you know who you are) would drive down the interstate and the unsecured hatch would blow off and crash through some guy's windshield. I imagine he changed the sliding hatch from a design that allowed it to lift off to the present captured version for the same reason. I doubt those changes had anything to do with legislation but rather with litigation. Since most M17s live on trailers and get towed places, it probably wasn't a bad idea. So let's blame Jerry for protecting us from ourselves, not the government. Don't get me wrong, I personally love to bash the government (even though I'm currently suckling at the government teat myself on a very sweet 6-month contract). After almost 8 years of breathtaking incompetence, who wouldn't? BTW, I've found the open hatch on our M17 provides more than enough ventilation regardless of which way it's hinged--it's better a sucking air out than blowing it in anyway. tom _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

another M15 has shown itself on caig's list seattle - http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/boa/671497841.html if she is as 'unused' as said in the listing this is a great find (and price) for an M15! dave scobie M15 #288 - Scred (yes i finally named the boat) --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.