Something more pleasant! I've been in a dialog with a builder to design a "Montgomery style" boat; probably 16', and I'd like to ask you for some opinions and comments. Lapstrake: How do you think the average buyer, looking for a boat in this size range, would look at a lapstrake hull as opposed to a smooth hull? You and I are probably prejudiced so we don't count. People can see that a lapstrake hull is dryer (but not much, really) and they can see that it's stiffer- again, not much. A lapstrake hull is a bit heavier but weight in a hull doesn't really slow the boat down enough to matter even to me. There is a cost factor, partly because of taking longer to lay up, a little more material, and because it takes a bit better molder, but not much, and really, the deck has more man hours in it than a hull so cost is a small factor. I don;'t believe there is a performance factor of any import. Maybe I'm saying too much; and the simple question is: which would sell best to the average buyer? I'm thinking the interior would be a roomier version of the 15, with a little more storage, and more comfortable sitting headroom. Also, the 15 cockpit is about 5.5' long, and when i'd take a 15 cruising I'd cleat the drop hatches to bridge the cockpit benches and sleep at a diagonal. This worked fine for me but would not work for most couples, especially if they fight a lot. The 17 cockpit, being over 6', was much better for sleeping in the cockpit. Here's the question : where would you like to see the extra foot of length- in the cockpit or the interior, or what combination of both? Any other comments would be welcome. My ex-wife used to call me a know-it-all but we all know I'm not! I think these subjects would be good for the list, but if you don't like speaking to a crowd feel free to email me directly at jerry@jerrymontgomery.org. jerry
Has there every been a Montgomery that didn't have a lapstrake hull? That's the "snap your head around" factor that if not part of the performance, (is not part of the steak) is certainly part of the sizzle. I'd scale up the boat so it looked right and let the room grow where it needs to. Let form follow function. Howard On May 13, 2009, at 2:25 PM, jerry wrote:
Something more pleasant! I've been in a dialog with a builder to design a "Montgomery style" boat; probably 16', and I'd like to ask you for some opinions and comments.
Lapstrake: How do you think the average buyer, looking for a boat in this size range, would look at a lapstrake hull as opposed to a smooth hull? You and I are probably prejudiced so we don't count. People can see that a lapstrake hull is dryer (but not much, really) and they can see that it's stiffer- again, not much. A lapstrake hull is a bit heavier but weight in a hull doesn't really slow the boat down enough to matter even to me. There is a cost factor, partly because of taking longer to lay up, a little more material, and because it takes a bit better molder, but not much, and really, the deck has more man hours in it than a hull so cost is a small factor. I don;'t believe there is a performance factor of any import. Maybe I'm saying too much; and the simple question is: which would sell best to the average buyer?
I'm thinking the interior would be a roomier version of the 15, with a little more storage, and more comfortable sitting headroom. Also, the 15 cockpit is about 5.5' long, and when i'd take a 15 cruising I'd cleat the drop hatches to bridge the cockpit benches and sleep at a diagonal. This worked fine for me but would not work for most couples, especially if they fight a lot. The 17 cockpit, being over 6', was much better for sleeping in the cockpit. Here's the question : where would you like to see the extra foot of length- in the cockpit or the interior, or what combination of both?
Any other comments would be welcome. My ex-wife used to call me a know-it-all but we all know I'm not! I think these subjects would be good for the list, but if you don't like speaking to a crowd feel free to email me directly at jerry@jerrymontgomery.org.
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Jerry, I would pay a little more for a lapstrake hull but I don't think your average buyer would. I think the more room in the cockpit the better. I sail a M17 and think the cockpit is one of the best features of the boat. I am trying to trade for a M15 but I know I will miss the larger cockpit. Good luck with this venture. I would love to see a new and improved Montgomery or maybe you'll have to call it a Jerry since Montgomery is taken. Ken M17 #306 ----- Original Message ----- From: "jerry" <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:25 PM Subject: M_Boats: market research
Something more pleasant! I've been in a dialog with a builder to design a "Montgomery style" boat; probably 16', and I'd like to ask you for some opinions and comments.
Lapstrake: How do you think the average buyer, looking for a boat in this size range, would look at a lapstrake hull as opposed to a smooth hull? You and I are probably prejudiced so we don't count. People can see that a lapstrake hull is dryer (but not much, really) and they can see that it's stiffer- again, not much. A lapstrake hull is a bit heavier but weight in a hull doesn't really slow the boat down enough to matter even to me. There is a cost factor, partly because of taking longer to lay up, a little more material, and because it takes a bit better molder, but not much, and really, the deck has more man hours in it than a hull so cost is a small factor. I don;'t believe there is a performance factor of any import. Maybe I'm saying too much; and the simple question is: which would sell best to the average buyer?
I'm thinking the interior would be a roomier version of the 15, with a little more storage, and more comfortable sitting headroom. Also, the 15 cockpit is about 5.5' long, and when i'd take a 15 cruising I'd cleat the drop hatches to bridge the cockpit benches and sleep at a diagonal. This worked fine for me but would not work for most couples, especially if they fight a lot. The 17 cockpit, being over 6', was much better for sleeping in the cockpit. Here's the question : where would you like to see the extra foot of length- in the cockpit or the interior, or what combination of both?
Any other comments would be welcome. My ex-wife used to call me a know-it-all but we all know I'm not! I think these subjects would be good for the list, but if you don't like speaking to a crowd feel free to email me directly at jerry@jerrymontgomery.org.
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Perhaps add a half a foot to the cockpit and a foot and a half to the interior, that would be the perfect boat. Oh wait I already have an M17 :-) Lapstrake in my opinion makes the boat a bit different then all of the other boats out on the market. it is a feature that has added benefit and marketing material should highlight that, it is one of the things that makes the boat better then um... Precisions. Length- I have always been a less cockpit more interior space kind of person, I usually only sail with one other person or by myself and I like sleeping inside, mosquitoes make sleeping outside in Minnesota a challenge. A Monty 15 with a roomier interior would certainly be strongly considered if something happens to my M17. --Chad On May 13, 2009, at 2:25 PM, jerry wrote:
Something more pleasant! I've been in a dialog with a builder to design a "Montgomery style" boat; probably 16', and I'd like to ask you for some opinions and comments.
Lapstrake: How do you think the average buyer, looking for a boat in this size range, would look at a lapstrake hull as opposed to a smooth hull? You and I are probably prejudiced so we don't count. People can see that a lapstrake hull is dryer (but not much, really) and they can see that it's stiffer- again, not much. A lapstrake hull is a bit heavier but weight in a hull doesn't really slow the boat down enough to matter even to me. There is a cost factor, partly because of taking longer to lay up, a little more material, and because it takes a bit better molder, but not much, and really, the deck has more man hours in it than a hull so cost is a small factor. I don;'t believe there is a performance factor of any import. Maybe I'm saying too much; and the simple question is: which would sell best to the average buyer?
I'm thinking the interior would be a roomier version of the 15, with a little more storage, and more comfortable sitting headroom. Also, the 15 cockpit is about 5.5' long, and when i'd take a 15 cruising I'd cleat the drop hatches to bridge the cockpit benches and sleep at a diagonal. This worked fine for me but would not work for most couples, especially if they fight a lot. The 17 cockpit, being over 6', was much better for sleeping in the cockpit. Here's the question : where would you like to see the extra foot of length- in the cockpit or the interior, or what combination of both?
Any other comments would be welcome. My ex-wife used to call me a know-it-all but we all know I'm not! I think these subjects would be good for the list, but if you don't like speaking to a crowd feel free to email me directly at jerry@jerrymontgomery.org.
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Now, I'm not recommending overloading your boat as a best practice, but we had an outing on our M17 in San Diego (Mission Bay) last Sunday that left me pretty impressed - thought I'd share. I don't know anything about the aquadynamics of hull shape or boat design, but I know that I just love this little hunk of fiberglass - the way it looks and the way it sails. And just about every time out, I find something new to enjoy. Most of the time, I sail alone. Once in a while, I'm lucky enough to have my son come along. But until now, there had never been more than two people in the boat. After the requisite Mother's day outing for brunch, several of the gang decided to have a sail. The problem was, there were six of us and only my wee little boat...five full grown adults and my 9-year old son. Most of the crew were non sailors and worried about falling off and drowning (good that I inspire such confidence in my in-laws!) Due to those crew jitters, we kept the 150 in the bag and set off with the main and working jib, nothing more, and I'll be darned if we didn't crack 5 knots in that sail, no problem, with those modest winds. Tacks were slow, to be sure, and it took some creativity to distribute the weight and keep the stern from sinking too deep, but 5 of us sat with reasonable comfort in the cockpit most of the time....and the boat is always loaded by the outboard, the camping gear, 5 gallons of water, pieces and parts for yet-to-be-completed projects..... Happy sailing, Matt M17 Lily
That's more rail meat than most of us have access to......perhaps standing up to the wind helps? On May 13, 2009, at 4:09 PM, <matt.marx@cox.net> wrote:
Now, I'm not recommending overloading your boat as a best practice, but we had an outing on our M17 in San Diego (Mission Bay) last Sunday that left me pretty impressed - thought I'd share. I don't know anything about the aquadynamics of hull shape or boat design, but I know that I just love this little hunk of fiberglass - the way it looks and the way it sails. And just about every time out, I find something new to enjoy. Most of the time, I sail alone. Once in a while, I'm lucky enough to have my son come along. But until now, there had never been more than two people in the boat.
After the requisite Mother's day outing for brunch, several of the gang decided to have a sail. The problem was, there were six of us and only my wee little boat...five full grown adults and my 9-year old son. Most of the crew were non sailors and worried about falling off and drowning (good that I inspire such confidence in my in-laws!)
Due to those crew jitters, we kept the 150 in the bag and set off with the main and working jib, nothing more, and I'll be darned if we didn't crack 5 knots in that sail, no problem, with those modest winds. Tacks were slow, to be sure, and it took some creativity to distribute the weight and keep the stern from sinking too deep, but 5 of us sat with reasonable comfort in the cockpit most of the time....and the boat is always loaded by the outboard, the camping gear, 5 gallons of water, pieces and parts for yet-to-be-completed projects.....
Happy sailing, Matt M17 Lily
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I have had 4 adults on my M15 when the wind came up took down the 110% jib put up 65% and took a ref in the main the boat settled down nicely ,still making head way without all the heal. Bill "Desert Dawn" Phoenix AZ On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 2:17 PM, Howard Audsley <haudsley@tranquility.net>wrote:
That's more rail meat than most of us have access to......perhaps standing up to the wind helps?
On May 13, 2009, at 4:09 PM, <matt.marx@cox.net> wrote:
Now, I'm not recommending overloading your boat as a best practice, but we
had an outing on our M17 in San Diego (Mission Bay) last Sunday that left me pretty impressed - thought I'd share. I don't know anything about the aquadynamics of hull shape or boat design, but I know that I just love this little hunk of fiberglass - the way it looks and the way it sails. And just about every time out, I find something new to enjoy. Most of the time, I sail alone. Once in a while, I'm lucky enough to have my son come along. But until now, there had never been more than two people in the boat.
After the requisite Mother's day outing for brunch, several of the gang decided to have a sail. The problem was, there were six of us and only my wee little boat...five full grown adults and my 9-year old son. Most of the crew were non sailors and worried about falling off and drowning (good that I inspire such confidence in my in-laws!)
Due to those crew jitters, we kept the 150 in the bag and set off with the main and working jib, nothing more, and I'll be darned if we didn't crack 5 knots in that sail, no problem, with those modest winds. Tacks were slow, to be sure, and it took some creativity to distribute the weight and keep the stern from sinking too deep, but 5 of us sat with reasonable comfort in the cockpit most of the time....and the boat is always loaded by the outboard, the camping gear, 5 gallons of water, pieces and parts for yet-to-be-completed projects.....
Happy sailing, Matt M17 Lily
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Jerry, as a former proud owner of Coyote, I would be interested in a cabin-type, well sailing, easily rigged wrinkle boat. I would prefer the rigging of a 17, with backstay, to the 15 and inside room would be more important than the cockpit. If I were to buy another boat, it would either be a Monty-type sailboat, or a smaller C-dory-type powerboat - both lapstrake. My intentions would be comfortable singlehanding and gunkhholing. If sailing, a short fixed keel would be nice, as it has less possibility of binding up as you ran into with the earlier swingers - quieter and less moving parts. Sleeping room for a 6-footer away from bugs is a consideration and as a singlehander, I would probably give up some interior space for an abreviated galley with sink, single burner and small ice chest. Porta Potti important also. One decent bunk would be just fine for my use. Opening ports for ventilation would be good. As the Montgomery name is unavailable for this craft, perhaps?Jerry-Can would work out. Indicative that when it comes to good, small boats,?Jerry Can... . Good luck, keep us in the loop. John in warm Tucson. -----Original Message----- From: jerry <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Wed, 13 May 2009 12:25 pm Subject: M_Boats: market research Something more pleasant! I've been in a dialog with a builder to design a "Montgomery style" boat; probably 16', and I'd like to ask you for some opinions and comments. Lapstrake: How do you think the average buyer, looking for a boat in this size range, would look at a lapstrake hull as opposed to a smooth hull? You and I are probably prejudiced so we don't count. People can see that a lapstrake hull is dryer (but not much, really) and they can see that it's stiffer- again, not much. A lapstrake hull is a bit heavier but weight in a hull doesn't really slow the boat down enough to matter even to me. There is a cost factor, partly because of taking longer to lay up, a little more material, and because it takes a bit better molder, but not much, and really, the deck has more man hours in it than a hull so cost is a small factor. I don;'t believe there is a performance factor of any import. Maybe I'm saying too much; and the simple question is: which would sell best to the average buyer? I'm thinking the interior would be a roomier version of the 15, with a little more storage, and more comfortable sitting headroom. Also, the 15 cockpit is about 5.5' long, and when i'd take a 15 cruising I'd cleat the drop hatches to bridge the cockpit benches and sleep at a diagonal. This worked fine for me but would not work for most couples, especially if they fight a lot. The 17 cockpit, being over 6', was much better for sleeping in the cockpit. Here's the question : where would you like to see the extra foot of length- in the cockpit or the interior, or what combination of both? Any other comments would be welcome. My ex-wife used to call me a know-it-all but we all know I'm not! I think these subjects would be good for the list, but if you don't like speaking to a crowd feel free to email me directly at jerry@jerrymontgomery.org. jerry _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy o n the Internet!
Jerry, I now own M17 #14 and previously owned the pre-production prototype of Hake's Slipper 17 flush deck for 16 years. I loved the huge cockpit and minimalist interior of the Sipper. All it had below deck was two quarter berths that were quite comfortable for my 6 foot 250 pound frame and a place in the bow for storage and a head. Griselda, my Montgomery, doesn't have a bunk that is very comfortable or easy for me to get into with my bulk and metal knee joints. I don't use the Monty's built in galley but have a portable galley I use in the cockpit. I cruised Bullfrog, my Slipper all up and down the texas coast and in many Texas and New Mexico lakes and spent most of my lounging, cooking and eating time under the boom tent rather than in the cabin. So, for me, the large cockpit is the place where the room should be. One feature I wish both boats had was a self draining anchor locker on deck like my Boston Whaler Harpoon 5.2 and the Beneteau 235. I do prefer the looks of the lapstrake design and Griselda is much dryer going to windward than Bullfrog was. Bullfrog was a prototype and I did have to add stringers fore and aft to stop the hull from flexing. I think the Lapstrake design makes the Montgomery hull much stiffer and less prone to "oil canning". So, I vote for Lapstrake. It would be nice to have a boat of about 16 feet that combined the best several boats I have owned over the last 60 years. Here is my list: 1. Large cockpit - at least 6'-6" 2. Sitting headroom over the head 3. Fewer but larger berths with easy access. I prefer a midships quarter berth for sleeping when underway 4. Storage bins in the forepeak and alongside the head 5. Large cockpit lockers 6. Portable galley and ice chest 7. Self draining, deck opening anchor locker in bow 8. Shoal draft There was an article in Duckwortks magazine a few months ago that showed an interior modification for the Montgomery 17 that I really liked. It had the quarter berths with the bow devoted to storage and the head. I may convert Griselda to that configuration this winter. Now if you just had some wisdom to pass along about adding an anchor locker on the foredeck, Griselda (M17) would have almost everything I want. Now that you have my opinion, I want to remind you that "Opinions are like Assholes. Every one has one and everyone else's stinks". Whitebeard M17 #14, Griselda
From: jerry@jerrymontgomery.org To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 12:25:27 -0700 Subject: M_Boats: market research
Something more pleasant! I've been in a dialog with a builder to design a "Montgomery style" boat; probably 16', and I'd like to ask you for some opinions and comments.
Lapstrake: How do you think the average buyer, looking for a boat in this size range, would look at a lapstrake hull as opposed to a smooth hull? You and I are probably prejudiced so we don't count. People can see that a lapstrake hull is dryer (but not much, really) and they can see that it's stiffer- again, not much. A lapstrake hull is a bit heavier but weight in a hull doesn't really slow the boat down enough to matter even to me. There is a cost factor, partly because of taking longer to lay up, a little more material, and because it takes a bit better molder, but not much, and really, the deck has more man hours in it than a hull so cost is a small factor. I don;'t believe there is a performance factor of any import. Maybe I'm saying too much; and the simple question is: which would sell best to the average buyer?
I'm thinking the interior would be a roomier version of the 15, with a little more storage, and more comfortable sitting headroom. Also, the 15 cockpit is about 5.5' long, and when i'd take a 15 cruising I'd cleat the drop hatches to bridge the cockpit benches and sleep at a diagonal. This worked fine for me but would not work for most couples, especially if they fight a lot. The 17 cockpit, being over 6', was much better for sleeping in the cockpit. Here's the question : where would you like to see the extra foot of length- in the cockpit or the interior, or what combination of both?
Any other comments would be welcome. My ex-wife used to call me a know-it-all but we all know I'm not! I think these subjects would be good for the list, but if you don't like speaking to a crowd feel free to email me directly at jerry@jerrymontgomery.org.
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Hi, Jerry: Interesting questions, exciting idea! I know nothing about the sailboat market, but I'd guess that a smooth-hulled boat would appeal more to the average buyer, considering the sales of Hunters, Catalinas and the like. But that isn't what I'd like to see in the boat you're discussing. I do think there's a solid niche of folks who are attracted to the distinctive look of a lapstrake hull -- or at least a more traditional design that both goes fast and can stay out in a blow. I may be mistaken, but I also think buyers in this niche will pay more for a well-designed, good-looking, well-built sailboat. I guess the question is, are there enough such buyers to make the venture viable? What is it that makes Potters sell so well? If the boat were to be a 16-foot version of the 15, I'd prefer to see the extra foot of length put into the cabin interior. That would make a nice little cruiser. Like another poster, I'd love to see a Montgomery style boat offered in a length between 17 and 23 feet (20 seems about right), since our M-17 is a bit tight for me and my wife (OK, a bit tight for my wife, who probably wouldn't want to go any more in a 20-footer than our 17, so maybe I should just stay small). Let us know how it goes! Gordon On May 13, 2009, at 2:25 PM, jerry wrote:
Something more pleasant! I've been in a dialog with a builder to design a "Montgomery style" boat; probably 16', and I'd like to ask you for some opinions and comments.
Lapstrake: How do you think the average buyer, looking for a boat in this size range, would look at a lapstrake hull as opposed to a smooth hull? You and I are probably prejudiced so we don't count. People can see that a lapstrake hull is dryer (but not much, really) and they can see that it's stiffer- again, not much. A lapstrake hull is a bit heavier but weight in a hull doesn't really slow the boat down enough to matter even to me. There is a cost factor, partly because of taking longer to lay up, a little more material, and because it takes a bit better molder, but not much, and really, the deck has more man hours in it than a hull so cost is a small factor. I don;'t believe there is a performance factor of any import. Maybe I'm saying too much; and the simple question is: which would sell best to the average buyer?
I'm thinking the interior would be a roomier version of the 15, with a little more storage, and more comfortable sitting headroom. Also, the 15 cockpit is about 5.5' long, and when i'd take a 15 cruising I'd cleat the drop hatches to bridge the cockpit benches and sleep at a diagonal. This worked fine for me but would not work for most couples, especially if they fight a lot. The 17 cockpit, being over 6', was much better for sleeping in the cockpit. Here's the question : where would you like to see the extra foot of length- in the cockpit or the interior, or what combination of both?
Any other comments would be welcome. My ex-wife used to call me a know-it-all but we all know I'm not! I think these subjects would be good for the list, but if you don't like speaking to a crowd feel free to email me directly at jerry@jerrymontgomery.org.
jerry _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
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Here's my 2 cents. My M17 always, I mean always, gets compliments. The lapstrake is the part of the draw. But the same people will compliment Flickas and Falmouth Cutters, both smoooth hulls.How does lapstrake translate into costs over smooth hull? Suggestions?? - Make the cockpit 6'6". That would still leave plenty of room for the quarter berth. But, how many people actually sleep in the quarter berths? My 38" waist can't do a 360 roll over. - Raise the bridge to the same height as the cockpit seats and square off the companionway. - Raise the cockpit sole just a tad above the water line. Don't get me wrong. I love my M17. Good luck with your endeavors. I hope you don't get so engrossed that you stray from the pack. Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "jerry" <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 3:25 PM Subject: M_Boats: market research
Something more pleasant! I've been in a dialog with a builder to design a "Montgomery style" boat; probably 16', and I'd like to ask you for some opinions and comments.
Lapstrake: How do you think the average buyer, looking for a boat in this size range, would look at a lapstrake hull as opposed to a smooth hull? You and I are probably prejudiced so we don't count. People can see that a lapstrake hull is dryer (but not much, really) and they can see that it's stiffer- again, not much. A lapstrake hull is a bit heavier but weight in a hull doesn't really slow the boat down enough to matter even to me. There is a cost factor, partly because of taking longer to lay up, a little more material, and because it takes a bit better molder, but not much, and really, the deck has more man hours in it than a hull so cost is a small factor. I don;'t believe there is a performance factor of any import. Maybe I'm saying too much; and the simple question is: which would sell best to the average buyer?
I'm thinking the interior would be a roomier version of the 15, with a little more storage, and more comfortable sitting headroom. Also, the 15 cockpit is about 5.5' long, and when i'd take a 15 cruising I'd cleat the drop hatches to bridge the cockpit benches and sleep at a diagonal. This worked fine for me but would not work for most couples, especially if they fight a lot. The 17 cockpit, being over 6', was much better for sleeping in the cockpit. Here's the question : where would you like to see the extra foot of length- in the cockpit or the interior, or what combination of both?
Any other comments would be welcome. My ex-wife used to call me a know-it-all but we all know I'm not! I think these subjects would be good for the list, but if you don't like speaking to a crowd feel free to email me directly at jerry@jerrymontgomery.org.
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Hi Jerry, I have a comment regarding ballast and aux power. We all know electric power is coming...and some of us may prefer it anyway. So, working from the current Monty keel design (which I think is terrific) it would be great if a provision could be made for removable ballast accessible from within the boat. A battery tray internal to the keel (forward and aft of the swing keel) where either heavy batteries OR lead plates could be secured. Want the electric power option? Fine, no lead plates for your order and battery trays instead (Torqeedo or equivalent electric outboard on transom). Want the gas power option? Fine, lead plates in the keel with your order OR battery tray for electrical package. That's as good as my idea's get. You can see I have never wrestled with the constraints of design :) Also, my sense is that your reputation is quality construction and good design. Stick with that. Wrinkles? I love'em but come on we're all biased on this list. You have a reputation with the Potter owners too (mostly good I think :0 ). You should poll them too. It would be interesting to see their responses to your inquiry. Good luck with your research. I hope you find what you're after. Cheers, Jason Smith M-15 #411 -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of jerry Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:25 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: market research Something more pleasant! I've been in a dialog with a builder to design a "Montgomery style" boat; probably 16', and I'd like to ask you for some opinions and comments. Lapstrake: How do you think the average buyer, looking for a boat in this size range, would look at a lapstrake hull as opposed to a smooth hull? You and I are probably prejudiced so we don't count. People can see that a lapstrake hull is dryer (but not much, really) and they can see that it's stiffer- again, not much. A lapstrake hull is a bit heavier but weight in a hull doesn't really slow the boat down enough to matter even to me. There is a cost factor, partly because of taking longer to lay up, a little more material, and because it takes a bit better molder, but not much, and really, the deck has more man hours in it than a hull so cost is a small factor. I don;'t believe there is a performance factor of any import. Maybe I'm saying too much; and the simple question is: which would sell best to the average buyer? I'm thinking the interior would be a roomier version of the 15, with a little more storage, and more comfortable sitting headroom. Also, the 15 cockpit is about 5.5' long, and when i'd take a 15 cruising I'd cleat the drop hatches to bridge the cockpit benches and sleep at a diagonal. This worked fine for me but would not work for most couples, especially if they fight a lot. The 17 cockpit, being over 6', was much better for sleeping in the cockpit. Here's the question : where would you like to see the extra foot of length- in the cockpit or the interior, or what combination of both? Any other comments would be welcome. My ex-wife used to call me a know-it-all but we all know I'm not! I think these subjects would be good for the list, but if you don't like speaking to a crowd feel free to email me directly at jerry@jerrymontgomery.org. jerry _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Jerry, I've been reading all the posts to your request for opinions/comments. A lot to take in and consider given the varying opinions on thing like cabin size vs cockpit size, etc. The one thing everyone seems to agree on is to keep a lapstrake hull. I love my 23 and the traditional looks of the lapstrake hull. I get compliments on it and some people think it is a wooden boat. I do think monty owners are a bit biased however and it may be beneficial to look at some of the disadvantages to lapstrake. There is always pros and cons to anything. Since everyone is so pro-lapstrake let me be the one to point out a few of the cons (even if there aren't many or might be considered by some as trivial). Also, I am attracted to boat designs whether they are lapstrake or not! There are boats that are not lapstrake that are just as appealing to my eye. The 2 cons I have come up with are: 1. Lapstrake can be noisy at anchor. I have had people on my boat that commented on this. 2. Its more difficult to maintain. Sanding, buffing, painting, cutting in waterlines, fiberglassing anything to the inside of the hull all is more difficult. This may not be an issue with a new boat but as a boat ages it is one of the cons in my opinion. not too many cons but at least it is something to consider. Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "jerry" <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:25 PM Subject: M_Boats: market research
Something more pleasant! I've been in a dialog with a builder to design a "Montgomery style" boat; probably 16', and I'd like to ask you for some opinions and comments.
Lapstrake: How do you think the average buyer, looking for a boat in this size range, would look at a lapstrake hull as opposed to a smooth hull? You and I are probably prejudiced so we don't count. People can see that a lapstrake hull is dryer (but not much, really) and they can see that it's stiffer- again, not much. A lapstrake hull is a bit heavier but weight in a hull doesn't really slow the boat down enough to matter even to me. There is a cost factor, partly because of taking longer to lay up, a little more material, and because it takes a bit better molder, but not much, and really, the deck has more man hours in it than a hull so cost is a small factor. I don;'t believe there is a performance factor of any import. Maybe I'm saying too much; and the simple question is: which would sell best to the average buyer?
I'm thinking the interior would be a roomier version of the 15, with a little more storage, and more comfortable sitting headroom. Also, the 15 cockpit is about 5.5' long, and when i'd take a 15 cruising I'd cleat the drop hatches to bridge the cockpit benches and sleep at a diagonal. This worked fine for me but would not work for most couples, especially if they fight a lot. The 17 cockpit, being over 6', was much better for sleeping in the cockpit. Here's the question : where would you like to see the extra foot of length- in the cockpit or the interior, or what combination of both?
Any other comments would be welcome. My ex-wife used to call me a know-it-all but we all know I'm not! I think these subjects would be good for the list, but if you don't like speaking to a crowd feel free to email me directly at jerry@jerrymontgomery.org.
jerry _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
There are two ways to go, a lot bigger or just a little bigger . It seems like most cars today have a maximum towing capacity of 1500 lb. so unless you already have a big car, buying a boat with a trailer weight of over 1500 means buying a big vehicle too. Bummer, don't go a lot bigger. Keep trailer weight under 1500, stretch the cockpit space to allow 4 people (ie couple and 2 guests), add some bouyancy to shape of stern to carry said 4 people, and raise cabin to actual sitting height. Keep the lapstrake ________________________________ From: jerry <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 3:25:27 PM Subject: M_Boats: market research Something more pleasant! I've been in a dialog with a builder to design a "Montgomery style" boat; probably 16', and I'd like to ask you for some opinions and comments. Lapstrake: How do you think the average buyer, looking for a boat in this size range, would look at a lapstrake hull as opposed to a smooth hull? You and I are probably prejudiced so we don't count. People can see that a lapstrake hull is dryer (but not much, really) and they can see that it's stiffer- again, not much. A lapstrake hull is a bit heavier but weight in a hull doesn't really slow the boat down enough to matter even to me. There is a cost factor, partly because of taking longer to lay up, a little more material, and because it takes a bit better molder, but not much, and really, the deck has more man hours in it than a hull so cost is a small factor. I don;'t believe there is a performance factor of any import. Maybe I'm saying too much; and the simple question is: which would sell best to the average buyer? I'm thinking the interior would be a roomier version of the 15, with a little more storage, and more comfortable sitting headroom. Also, the 15 cockpit is about 5.5' long, and when i'd take a 15 cruising I'd cleat the drop hatches to bridge the cockpit benches and sleep at a diagonal. This worked fine for me but would not work for most couples, especially if they fight a lot. The 17 cockpit, being over 6', was much better for sleeping in the cockpit. Here's the question : where would you like to see the extra foot of length- in the cockpit or the interior, or what combination of both? Any other comments would be welcome. My ex-wife used to call me a know-it-all but we all know I'm not! I think these subjects would be good for the list, but if you don't like speaking to a crowd feel free to email me directly at jerry@jerrymontgomery.org. jerry _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Jerry, I think you are trying to herd cats! *LOL* A lot of good ideas here from everyone, not the least of which is towability/tow vehicle, which almost seems like the first decision: Towable with a smaller vehicle VS something that requires a larger one. My old S10 was clearly overloaded pulling my M17, so I now have a GMC Sierra 1500. Towing with a smaller vehicle is always nice, but my own sailing habits point towards a 17'-20' boat. The 17 just has sitting headroom, but a slightly larger boat might allow that seat to become a little more luxurious. I agree with the aluminum toe rails: sailed boats with and without and the extra utility and the reduced maintenance is nice. With the price differential, it could at least be an option. I swapped my wooden companionway strips out for aluminum and am pleased with the change. Personally, I like wood IF it is something like the drop boards that you can take in the house to varnish. If it is bolted to the boat; no thanks (unless it is on someone else's boat!) M17 cockpit is perfectly proportioned. A new boat could benefit from having it slightly higher and with sole sloping a wee bit more to improve drainage when loaded. With a cockpit full of people, water tends to pool at the stern and when anchored during a cruise, I find that water often collects at the front of the well after a shower which I get to drain by standing as far aft as I can. Drains could go through transom, keeping things above WL and eliminating hoses/thru-hulls. My Q'berth (galley model) is used solely for stowage + seat. Kickup rudder would be desirable. The narrow side decks of the 17 are fine. Enough room for foot while holding handrail. (handrail could be non-wood, perhaps a stainless tube resting on bosses molded into the deck) Consideration for a nylon rain fly over the fwd half of cockpit + companionway and a bimini would be good, plus ability to have a tent/integral screen over fwd hatch (planned attachment points, perhaps not with the fittings, but with smooth, coreless spots where hardware could be added. Details such as no coring in places where hardware is intended (either standard or optional) would be nice. Details in the molds, such as those and things like settee seatback ridges might save labor later (adding wood fiddles). Recesses for instruments/stowage, in cockpit & cabin both? I've been keeping as much stuff as possible in boxes aboard, which improves packing/unpacking time (just remove a box with 5 items rather than removing 5 items). Modularization. Annie Westlund, who spends summers on her little boats (first a Potter, now a Slipper), keeps a claw anchor on a roller at the bow and runs the rode along the deck to the cockpit, where she launches/retrieves. I like the concept but dislike chain rubbing along the side deck. Maybe something could be designed in? Dunno. I keep my anchor/rode in a milk crate under the cockpit. For some reason, under the v-berth always seems damp. (water from the porta pot fresh water was a source, so I quit filling it and instead pour from jugs). It has never been bone dry. So I keep clothes, etc, ATOP the berth. Lapstrakes: They are okay and certainly visually eye-catching, but do make maintenance a bit harder. I would have to think layup labor would be greater with them. Fg/lead c/b concept works for me. Lead ballast. Tod Mills M17 #408, 1987 galley model BuscaBrisas
Jerry, My wife doesn't speak up often regarding things related to boats. But she wanted you to know she things you need to design a M19; basically a 17 only bigger. Oh, and she wants the head a little more "user friendly". Randy & Deanne Graves M17 #410 ________________________________________ From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of jerry [jerry@jerrymontgomery.org] Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:25 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: market research Something more pleasant! I've been in a dialog with a builder to design a "Montgomery style" boat; probably 16', and I'd like to ask you for some opinions and comments. Lapstrake: How do you think the average buyer, looking for a boat in this size range, would look at a lapstrake hull as opposed to a smooth hull? You and I are probably prejudiced so we don't count. People can see that a lapstrake hull is dryer (but not much, really) and they can see that it's stiffer- again, not much. A lapstrake hull is a bit heavier but weight in a hull doesn't really slow the boat down enough to matter even to me. There is a cost factor, partly because of taking longer to lay up, a little more material, and because it takes a bit better molder, but not much, and really, the deck has more man hours in it than a hull so cost is a small factor. I don;'t believe there is a performance factor of any import. Maybe I'm saying too much; and the simple question is: which would sell best to the average buyer? I'm thinking the interior would be a roomier version of the 15, with a little more storage, and more comfortable sitting headroom. Also, the 15 cockpit is about 5.5' long, and when i'd take a 15 cruising I'd cleat the drop hatches to bridge the cockpit benches and sleep at a diagonal. This worked fine for me but would not work for most couples, especially if they fight a lot. The 17 cockpit, being over 6', was much better for sleeping in the cockpit. Here's the question : where would you like to see the extra foot of length- in the cockpit or the interior, or what combination of both? Any other comments would be welcome. My ex-wife used to call me a know-it-all but we all know I'm not! I think these subjects would be good for the list, but if you don't like speaking to a crowd feel free to email me directly at jerry@jerrymontgomery.org. jerry _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
And a final response.... What would Lyle do?? Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "jerry" <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 3:25 PM Subject: M_Boats: market research
Something more pleasant! I've been in a dialog with a builder to design a "Montgomery style" boat; probably 16', and I'd like to ask you for some opinions and comments.
Lapstrake: How do you think the average buyer, looking for a boat in this size range, would look at a lapstrake hull as opposed to a smooth hull? You and I are probably prejudiced so we don't count. People can see that a lapstrake hull is dryer (but not much, really) and they can see that it's stiffer- again, not much. A lapstrake hull is a bit heavier but weight in a hull doesn't really slow the boat down enough to matter even to me. There is a cost factor, partly because of taking longer to lay up, a little more material, and because it takes a bit better molder, but not much, and really, the deck has more man hours in it than a hull so cost is a small factor. I don;'t believe there is a performance factor of any import. Maybe I'm saying too much; and the simple question is: which would sell best to the average buyer?
I'm thinking the interior would be a roomier version of the 15, with a little more storage, and more comfortable sitting headroom. Also, the 15 cockpit is about 5.5' long, and when i'd take a 15 cruising I'd cleat the drop hatches to bridge the cockpit benches and sleep at a diagonal. This worked fine for me but would not work for most couples, especially if they fight a lot. The 17 cockpit, being over 6', was much better for sleeping in the cockpit. Here's the question : where would you like to see the extra foot of length- in the cockpit or the interior, or what combination of both?
Any other comments would be welcome. My ex-wife used to call me a know-it-all but we all know I'm not! I think these subjects would be good for the list, but if you don't like speaking to a crowd feel free to email me directly at jerry@jerrymontgomery.org.
jerry _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
participants (15)
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Bill Kaiser -
Chad Parrish -
Gordon Gilbert -
Howard Audsley -
htmills＠zoominternet.net -
Jason A. Smith -
Jeff Packer -
jerry -
Joe Murphy -
jslubliner＠aol.com -
Ken Wheeler -
matt.marx＠cox.net -
mrh219＠yahoo.com -
RKGraves -
Ronnie Keeler