How about sail balance when the wind kicks up? I’m on a (newer to me, although its my third) M15, and I’ve raked the mast back quite a lot to get rid of the lee helm the boat came with. Being a fractional rig, with a working jib we reef the main first, often twice when it blows too much for the rough conditions on Puget Sound. Sail balance seems to suffer after reefing, though, and the lee helm is back because of the larger sail area forward now, often making tacking almost impossible in the really rough water we get in Possession Sound. I’m finding that unless I know it’s going to be a really light air day I just put on the “storm jib” (it isn’t in any way a storm jib, I don’t know why Monty sailors continue to call it that, it’s just a heavier air jib) and deal with the slight reduction in performance, until it inevitable blows stink about 4pm. What is everyone else’s experience with balancing sails and managing weather/lee helm in changing conditions? (Mostly for M15’s) Rusty on Sparrow www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
On Aug 18, 2023, at 6:20 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
My solution, so far - I now have two furling/reefing jibs - the Genoa I got some years back (from Hyde) when I put the furler on, and a working jib that I got last year (from EP Sails).
Reason being, what is now my "local" lake is usually too windy for a Genoa or even close to it. Most of the time I was sailing with it reefed more than makes any sense for that size jib.
For typical "not crazy windy" conditions here, the working jib plus first reef in main is about right. If it pipes up more I can reef the jib as necessary. If it really pipes up, or I go out in higher winds on purpose, I might have 2nd reef in main and reefed working jib. Point being - it's a more appropriate and versatile combo for my typical local conditions.
In theory I could change jibs on the water (CDI furler, so luff tape just slides in/out the extrusion slot). But it's a bit more complicated than with hank-ons, and there's no point really, day sailing on a lake.
I find that the loss in speed from being slightly under-canvassed is minor (and, I'm not racing). I get enough thrills when the gusts come along and I'm just right or slightly over-canvassed for a few minutes.
For those who haven't already read this here or elsewhere, the M17 with a masthead rig is jib-driven more than main-driven. So I typically reduce main sail first. As mentioned, first reef in main but full working jib is a typical combo for me, and then I can reef the jib a bit if needed. But if I'm radically reefing the jib, then it's time to put 2nd reef in main.
It's not a storm jib equivalent, but I can reef the working jib down to a handkerchief if necessary. Also, knowing I'd be sailing often in gusty winds, I had it made of a wee bit heavier cloth than the default weight they would normally have used.
cheers, John
On 8/18/23 17:18, Jason Leckie wrote: Yes, lots of wind in the Pacific Northwest right now. This brings up the subject of storm jibs in my mind. I have one that came with my boat, although I have never pulled it out of the bag (maybe I did once when I first got the boat.), I think I will this weekend though. My sail on the furling rig is a full sized genoa that can’t be removed other than by dropping the mast or climbing the mast. Does anyone rig up a storm jib separate from the furling system and how do they do that? Of course I can just reduce the area of the genoa sail with the furler but perhaps using a storm jib can be better in very strong winds. I believe Dave Scobie may have mentioned something about this in the past. Thanks in advance for any responses Jason Leckie Kuma M17 Point Roberts,WA/ Vancouver, BC
On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 4:48 PM Larry Yake <larryyake@gmail.com> wrote: Timely subject. I was just out today in steady winds of 20+ with prolonged gusts of 30+ on Priest Lake in northern Idaho. One deep reef. Boat was solid, no problems.
On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 12:53 PM Jennifer Wood < jennifer@buskersguidetotheuniverse.org> wrote:
Last year I was out in about 18mph w/ gusts > 25, and it was ... surprisingly stable with a storm jib and a single reef. This is a reassuring little boat!
I have a new main on the way, and your stories have convinced me to ask them to put in a second reef. I'm hoping to get out on Superior next summer -- even if it's "just" the Apostle Islands. Things can change fast out there from what I hear, so it'll be good to have options.
Somewhat relatedly, anyone spent time out on Rainy Lake? It's a "little" great lake of sorts.
On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 11:43 AM Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
I absolutely love going out in 25-30 knot winds. 40 knot gusts is the highest I've been in. Storm jib and double reefed main. I don't get ocean size waves on my inland lake.
The picture was taken just before I put the second reef in.
On Fri, Aug 18, 2023, 10:58 AM Jim Poulakis <picfo@comcast.net> wrote:
That beats me!
In San Francisco Bay summer winds regularly get over 20 knots in "the slot" around the Golden Gate Bridge. In wind vs. tide conditions the seas can get over 5' with steep breaking chop. With a fully reefed main and a slab reefing jib "Spirit" handled these conditions with winds gusting well into the 30's without trouble. It's a great place to build confidence because if everything goes to hell help is *usually* nearby.
- Jim P.
M17 "Spirit"
On 8/18/2023 7:54 AM, jerry montgomery wrote: > A friend and I sailed to Catalina Island, probably in '84, when it was blowing 42 with gusts of 50. These were Coast Guard figures. Wind was right on the nose. We got to the well-sheltered Avalon Bay well after dark and gratefully tied up to a mooring. > > Waves were WAY higher than the mast! > > ________________________________ > From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> > Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 11:09 PM > To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> > Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> > Subject: M_Boats: What's the biggest wind you've been out in? > > A question for the list...especially M17s, but 15s and 23s feel free to > chime in. > > Just curious what kind of high wind conditions anyone has dealt with on > their M17. 30 knots? 40? more? Anything that broke the rigging, blew out > a sail, etc.? > > Part of the reason I'm asking... > I've got a friend originally from South Africa who in his younger days > sailed bigger boats, racing, in the Cape region, where he says regularly > it blows 30+ and they would commonly go out in 40+. Triple and quadruple > reefs and storm jibs for a nice day on the water... :-! > > cheers, > John > > -- > John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design > -------------------------------------------- > - Eco-Living - > Whole Systems Design Services > People - Place - Learning - Integration > john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 > http://eco-living.net > http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- Jennifer Wood (she/her)
Itinerant musician? Try the Guide to the Universe! https://www.buskersguidetotheuniverse.org/ https://buskersguide.org <http://buskersguide.org>
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
How old are the sails Rusty? Double reef main and working jib for a M15 is a good set for 18-20kts+. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sailboatswallow.wordpress.com/ :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com On Fri, Aug 25, 2023, 10:13 Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
How about sail balance when the wind kicks up? I’m on a (newer to me, although its my third) M15, and I’ve raked the mast back quite a lot to get rid of the lee helm the boat came with. Being a fractional rig, with a working jib we reef the main first, often twice when it blows too much for the rough conditions on Puget Sound. Sail balance seems to suffer after reefing, though, and the lee helm is back because of the larger sail area forward now, often making tacking almost impossible in the really rough water we get in Possession Sound.
I’m finding that unless I know it’s going to be a really light air day I just put on the “storm jib” (it isn’t in any way a storm jib, I don’t know why Monty sailors continue to call it that, it’s just a heavier air jib) and deal with the slight reduction in performance, until it inevitable blows stink about 4pm.
What is everyone else’s experience with balancing sails and managing weather/lee helm in changing conditions? (Mostly for M15’s)
Rusty on Sparrow
www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
On Aug 18, 2023, at 6:20 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
My solution, so far - I now have two furling/reefing jibs - the Genoa I got some years back (from Hyde) when I put the furler on, and a working jib that I got last year (from EP Sails).
Reason being, what is now my "local" lake is usually too windy for a Genoa or even close to it. Most of the time I was sailing with it reefed more than makes any sense for that size jib.
For typical "not crazy windy" conditions here, the working jib plus first reef in main is about right. If it pipes up more I can reef the jib as necessary. If it really pipes up, or I go out in higher winds on purpose, I might have 2nd reef in main and reefed working jib. Point being - it's a more appropriate and versatile combo for my typical local conditions.
In theory I could change jibs on the water (CDI furler, so luff tape just slides in/out the extrusion slot). But it's a bit more complicated than with hank-ons, and there's no point really, day sailing on a lake.
I find that the loss in speed from being slightly under-canvassed is minor (and, I'm not racing). I get enough thrills when the gusts come along and I'm just right or slightly over-canvassed for a few minutes.
For those who haven't already read this here or elsewhere, the M17 with a masthead rig is jib-driven more than main-driven. So I typically reduce main sail first. As mentioned, first reef in main but full working jib is a typical combo for me, and then I can reef the jib a bit if needed. But if I'm radically reefing the jib, then it's time to put 2nd reef in main.
It's not a storm jib equivalent, but I can reef the working jib down to a handkerchief if necessary. Also, knowing I'd be sailing often in gusty winds, I had it made of a wee bit heavier cloth than the default weight they would normally have used.
cheers, John
On 8/18/23 17:18, Jason Leckie wrote: Yes, lots of wind in the Pacific Northwest right now. This brings up the subject of storm jibs in my mind. I have one that came with my boat, although I have never pulled it out of the bag (maybe I did once when I first got the boat.), I think I will this weekend though. My sail on the furling rig is a full sized genoa that can’t be removed other than by dropping the mast or climbing the mast. Does anyone rig up a storm jib separate from the furling system and how do they do that? Of course I can just reduce the area of the genoa sail with the furler but perhaps using a storm jib can be better in very strong winds. I believe Dave Scobie may have mentioned something about this in the past. Thanks in advance for any responses Jason Leckie Kuma M17 Point Roberts,WA/ Vancouver, BC
On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 4:48 PM Larry Yake <larryyake@gmail.com> wrote: Timely subject. I was just out today in steady winds of 20+ with prolonged gusts of 30+ on Priest Lake in northern Idaho. One deep reef. Boat was solid, no problems.
On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 12:53 PM Jennifer Wood < jennifer@buskersguidetotheuniverse.org> wrote:
Last year I was out in about 18mph w/ gusts > 25, and it was ... surprisingly stable with a storm jib and a single reef. This is a reassuring little boat!
I have a new main on the way, and your stories have convinced me to ask them to put in a second reef. I'm hoping to get out on Superior next summer -- even if it's "just" the Apostle Islands. Things can change fast out there from what I hear, so it'll be good to have options.
Somewhat relatedly, anyone spent time out on Rainy Lake? It's a "little" great lake of sorts.
On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 11:43 AM Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
I absolutely love going out in 25-30 knot winds. 40 knot gusts is the highest I've been in. Storm jib and double reefed main. I don't get ocean size waves on my inland lake.
The picture was taken just before I put the second reef in.
On Fri, Aug 18, 2023, 10:58 AM Jim Poulakis <picfo@comcast.net> wrote:
> That beats me! > > In San Francisco Bay summer winds regularly get over 20 knots in "the > slot" around the Golden Gate Bridge. In wind vs. tide conditions the > seas can get over 5' with steep breaking chop. With a fully reefed main > and a slab reefing jib "Spirit" handled these conditions with winds > gusting well into the 30's without trouble. It's a great place to build > confidence because if everything goes to hell help is *usually* nearby. > > - Jim P. > > M17 "Spirit" > > On 8/18/2023 7:54 AM, jerry montgomery wrote: >> A friend and I sailed to Catalina Island, probably in '84, when it was > blowing 42 with gusts of 50. These were Coast Guard figures. Wind was > right on the nose. We got to the well-sheltered Avalon Bay well after dark > and gratefully tied up to a mooring. >> >> Waves were WAY higher than the mast! >> >> ________________________________ >> From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < > montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> >> Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 11:09 PM >> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < > montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> >> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> >> Subject: M_Boats: What's the biggest wind you've been out in? >> >> A question for the list...especially M17s, but 15s and 23s feel free to >> chime in. >> >> Just curious what kind of high wind conditions anyone has dealt with on >> their M17. 30 knots? 40? more? Anything that broke the rigging, blew out >> a sail, etc.? >> >> Part of the reason I'm asking... >> I've got a friend originally from South Africa who in his younger days >> sailed bigger boats, racing, in the Cape region, where he says regularly >> it blows 30+ and they would commonly go out in 40+. Triple and quadruple >> reefs and storm jibs for a nice day on the water... :-! >> >> cheers, >> John >> >> -- >> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design >> -------------------------------------------- >> - Eco-Living - >> Whole Systems Design Services >> People - Place - Learning - Integration >> john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 >> http://eco-living.net >> http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- Jennifer Wood (she/her)
Itinerant musician? Try the Guide to the Universe! https://www.buskersguidetotheuniverse.org/ https://buskersguide.org <http://buskersguide.org>
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Not sure, Dave. I had Harry at EP look at some video under sail and he said there was no reason to replace them at this time. The answer can’t always be “just get new sails”. www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
On Aug 25, 2023, at 10:59 AM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
How old are the sails Rusty?
Double reef main and working jib for a M15 is a good set for 18-20kts+.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sailboatswallow.wordpress.com/ :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com
On Fri, Aug 25, 2023, 10:13 Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
How about sail balance when the wind kicks up? I’m on a (newer to me, although its my third) M15, and I’ve raked the mast back quite a lot to get rid of the lee helm the boat came with. Being a fractional rig, with a working jib we reef the main first, often twice when it blows too much for the rough conditions on Puget Sound. Sail balance seems to suffer after reefing, though, and the lee helm is back because of the larger sail area forward now, often making tacking almost impossible in the really rough water we get in Possession Sound.
I’m finding that unless I know it’s going to be a really light air day I just put on the “storm jib” (it isn’t in any way a storm jib, I don’t know why Monty sailors continue to call it that, it’s just a heavier air jib) and deal with the slight reduction in performance, until it inevitable blows stink about 4pm.
What is everyone else’s experience with balancing sails and managing weather/lee helm in changing conditions? (Mostly for M15’s)
Rusty on Sparrow
www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
On Aug 18, 2023, at 6:20 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
My solution, so far - I now have two furling/reefing jibs - the Genoa I got some years back (from Hyde) when I put the furler on, and a working jib that I got last year (from EP Sails).
Reason being, what is now my "local" lake is usually too windy for a Genoa or even close to it. Most of the time I was sailing with it reefed more than makes any sense for that size jib.
For typical "not crazy windy" conditions here, the working jib plus first reef in main is about right. If it pipes up more I can reef the jib as necessary. If it really pipes up, or I go out in higher winds on purpose, I might have 2nd reef in main and reefed working jib. Point being - it's a more appropriate and versatile combo for my typical local conditions.
In theory I could change jibs on the water (CDI furler, so luff tape just slides in/out the extrusion slot). But it's a bit more complicated than with hank-ons, and there's no point really, day sailing on a lake.
I find that the loss in speed from being slightly under-canvassed is minor (and, I'm not racing). I get enough thrills when the gusts come along and I'm just right or slightly over-canvassed for a few minutes.
For those who haven't already read this here or elsewhere, the M17 with a masthead rig is jib-driven more than main-driven. So I typically reduce main sail first. As mentioned, first reef in main but full working jib is a typical combo for me, and then I can reef the jib a bit if needed. But if I'm radically reefing the jib, then it's time to put 2nd reef in main.
It's not a storm jib equivalent, but I can reef the working jib down to a handkerchief if necessary. Also, knowing I'd be sailing often in gusty winds, I had it made of a wee bit heavier cloth than the default weight they would normally have used.
cheers, John
On 8/18/23 17:18, Jason Leckie wrote: Yes, lots of wind in the Pacific Northwest right now. This brings up the subject of storm jibs in my mind. I have one that came with my boat, although I have never pulled it out of the bag (maybe I did once when I first got the boat.), I think I will this weekend though. My sail on the furling rig is a full sized genoa that can’t be removed other than by dropping the mast or climbing the mast. Does anyone rig up a storm jib separate from the furling system and how do they do that? Of course I can just reduce the area of the genoa sail with the furler but perhaps using a storm jib can be better in very strong winds. I believe Dave Scobie may have mentioned something about this in the past. Thanks in advance for any responses Jason Leckie Kuma M17 Point Roberts,WA/ Vancouver, BC
On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 4:48 PM Larry Yake <larryyake@gmail.com> wrote: Timely subject. I was just out today in steady winds of 20+ with prolonged gusts of 30+ on Priest Lake in northern Idaho. One deep reef. Boat was solid, no problems.
On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 12:53 PM Jennifer Wood < jennifer@buskersguidetotheuniverse.org> wrote:
Last year I was out in about 18mph w/ gusts > 25, and it was ... surprisingly stable with a storm jib and a single reef. This is a reassuring little boat!
I have a new main on the way, and your stories have convinced me to ask them to put in a second reef. I'm hoping to get out on Superior next summer -- even if it's "just" the Apostle Islands. Things can change fast out there from what I hear, so it'll be good to have options.
Somewhat relatedly, anyone spent time out on Rainy Lake? It's a "little" great lake of sorts.
On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 11:43 AM Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
> I absolutely love going out in 25-30 knot winds. 40 knot gusts is the > highest I've been in. Storm jib and double reefed main. I don't get ocean > size waves on my inland lake. > > The picture was taken just before I put the second reef in. > > > On Fri, Aug 18, 2023, 10:58 AM Jim Poulakis <picfo@comcast.net> wrote: > >> That beats me! >> >> In San Francisco Bay summer winds regularly get over 20 knots in "the >> slot" around the Golden Gate Bridge. In wind vs. tide conditions the >> seas can get over 5' with steep breaking chop. With a fully reefed main >> and a slab reefing jib "Spirit" handled these conditions with winds >> gusting well into the 30's without trouble. It's a great place to build >> confidence because if everything goes to hell help is *usually* nearby. >> >> - Jim P. >> >> M17 "Spirit" >> >> On 8/18/2023 7:54 AM, jerry montgomery wrote: >>> A friend and I sailed to Catalina Island, probably in '84, when it was >> blowing 42 with gusts of 50. These were Coast Guard figures. Wind was >> right on the nose. We got to the well-sheltered Avalon Bay well after > dark >> and gratefully tied up to a mooring. >>> >>> Waves were WAY higher than the mast! >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < >> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> >>> Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 11:09 PM >>> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < >> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> >>> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> >>> Subject: M_Boats: What's the biggest wind you've been out in? >>> >>> A question for the list...especially M17s, but 15s and 23s feel free to >>> chime in. >>> >>> Just curious what kind of high wind conditions anyone has dealt with on >>> their M17. 30 knots? 40? more? Anything that broke the rigging, blew > out >>> a sail, etc.? >>> >>> Part of the reason I'm asking... >>> I've got a friend originally from South Africa who in his younger days >>> sailed bigger boats, racing, in the Cape region, where he says > regularly >>> it blows 30+ and they would commonly go out in 40+. Triple and > quadruple >>> reefs and storm jibs for a nice day on the water... :-! >>> >>> cheers, >>> John >>> >>> -- >>> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design >>> -------------------------------------------- >>> - Eco-Living - >>> Whole Systems Design Services >>> People - Place - Learning - Integration >>> john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 >>> http://eco-living.net >>> http://sociocracyconsulting.com >
-- Jennifer Wood (she/her)
Itinerant musician? Try the Guide to the Universe! https://www.buskersguidetotheuniverse.org/ https://buskersguide.org <http://buskersguide.org>
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Randy I ask about sails as usually the issue is they are 20+ years old and 'look fine'. If the draft is good my next guess is that the main is over-trimmed: to much outhaul or over-sheeting (in to tight). The headsail may also be oversheeted. Next is how is the boat crew seated? Back at the transom or up tight leaning against the cabin? :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sailboatswallow.wordpress.com/ :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com On Fri, Aug 25, 2023, 11:26 Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Not sure, Dave. I had Harry at EP look at some video under sail and he said there was no reason to replace them at this time. The answer can’t always be “just get new sails”.
www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
On Aug 25, 2023, at 10:59 AM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
How old are the sails Rusty?
Double reef main and working jib for a M15 is a good set for 18-20kts+.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sailboatswallow.wordpress.com/ :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com
On Fri, Aug 25, 2023, 10:13 Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
How about sail balance when the wind kicks up? I’m on a (newer to me, although its my third) M15, and I’ve raked the mast back quite a lot to get rid of the lee helm the boat came with. Being a fractional rig, with a working jib we reef the main first, often twice when it blows too much for the rough conditions on Puget Sound. Sail balance seems to suffer after reefing, though, and the lee helm is back because of the larger sail area forward now, often making tacking almost impossible in the really rough water we get in Possession Sound.
I’m finding that unless I know it’s going to be a really light air day I just put on the “storm jib” (it isn’t in any way a storm jib, I don’t know why Monty sailors continue to call it that, it’s just a heavier air jib) and deal with the slight reduction in performance, until it inevitable blows stink about 4pm.
What is everyone else’s experience with balancing sails and managing weather/lee helm in changing conditions? (Mostly for M15’s)
Rusty on Sparrow
www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
On Aug 18, 2023, at 6:20 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
My solution, so far - I now have two furling/reefing jibs - the Genoa I got some years back (from Hyde) when I put the furler on, and a working jib that I got last year (from EP Sails).
Reason being, what is now my "local" lake is usually too windy for a Genoa or even close to it. Most of the time I was sailing with it reefed more than makes any sense for that size jib.
For typical "not crazy windy" conditions here, the working jib plus first reef in main is about right. If it pipes up more I can reef the jib as necessary. If it really pipes up, or I go out in higher winds on purpose, I might have 2nd reef in main and reefed working jib. Point being - it's a more appropriate and versatile combo for my typical local conditions.
In theory I could change jibs on the water (CDI furler, so luff tape just slides in/out the extrusion slot). But it's a bit more complicated than with hank-ons, and there's no point really, day sailing on a lake.
I find that the loss in speed from being slightly under-canvassed is minor (and, I'm not racing). I get enough thrills when the gusts come along and I'm just right or slightly over-canvassed for a few minutes.
For those who haven't already read this here or elsewhere, the M17 with a masthead rig is jib-driven more than main-driven. So I typically reduce main sail first. As mentioned, first reef in main but full working jib is a typical combo for me, and then I can reef the jib a bit if needed. But if I'm radically reefing the jib, then it's time to put 2nd reef in main.
It's not a storm jib equivalent, but I can reef the working jib down to a handkerchief if necessary. Also, knowing I'd be sailing often in gusty winds, I had it made of a wee bit heavier cloth than the default weight they would normally have used.
cheers, John
On 8/18/23 17:18, Jason Leckie wrote: Yes, lots of wind in the Pacific Northwest right now. This brings up the subject of storm jibs in my mind. I have one that came with my boat, although I have never pulled it out of the bag (maybe I did once when I first got the boat.), I think I will this weekend though. My sail on the furling rig is a full sized genoa that can’t be removed other than by dropping the mast or climbing the mast. Does anyone rig up a storm jib separate from the furling system and how do they do that? Of course I can just reduce the area of the genoa sail with the furler but perhaps using a storm jib can be better in very strong winds. I believe Dave Scobie may have mentioned something about this in the past. Thanks in advance for any responses Jason Leckie Kuma M17 Point Roberts,WA/ Vancouver, BC
On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 4:48 PM Larry Yake <larryyake@gmail.com> wrote: Timely subject. I was just out today in steady winds of 20+ with prolonged gusts of 30+ on Priest Lake in northern Idaho. One deep reef. Boat was solid, no problems.
On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 12:53 PM Jennifer Wood < jennifer@buskersguidetotheuniverse.org> wrote:
> Last year I was out in about 18mph w/ gusts > 25, and it was ... > surprisingly stable with a storm jib and a single reef. This is a > reassuring little boat! > > I have a new main on the way, and your stories have convinced me to ask > them to put in a second reef. I'm hoping to get out on Superior next > summer -- even if it's "just" the Apostle Islands. Things can change fast > out there from what I hear, so it'll be good to have options. > > Somewhat relatedly, anyone spent time out on Rainy Lake? It's a "little" > great lake of sorts. > > On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 11:43 AM Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com
> wrote: > >> I absolutely love going out in 25-30 knot winds. 40 knot gusts is the >> highest I've been in. Storm jib and double reefed main. I don't get ocean >> size waves on my inland lake. >> >> The picture was taken just before I put the second reef in. >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 18, 2023, 10:58 AM Jim Poulakis <picfo@comcast.net> wrote: >> >>> That beats me! >>> >>> In San Francisco Bay summer winds regularly get over 20 knots in "the >>> slot" around the Golden Gate Bridge. In wind vs. tide conditions the >>> seas can get over 5' with steep breaking chop. With a fully reefed main >>> and a slab reefing jib "Spirit" handled these conditions with winds >>> gusting well into the 30's without trouble. It's a great place to > build >>> confidence because if everything goes to hell help is *usually* nearby. >>> >>> - Jim P. >>> >>> M17 "Spirit" >>> >>> On 8/18/2023 7:54 AM, jerry montgomery wrote: >>>> A friend and I sailed to Catalina Island, probably in '84, when it > was >>> blowing 42 with gusts of 50. These were Coast Guard figures. Wind was >>> right on the nose. We got to the well-sheltered Avalon Bay well after >> dark >>> and gratefully tied up to a mooring. >>>> >>>> Waves were WAY higher than the mast! >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < >>> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 11:09 PM >>>> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < >>> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> >>>> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> >>>> Subject: M_Boats: What's the biggest wind you've been out in? >>>> >>>> A question for the list...especially M17s, but 15s and 23s feel free > to >>>> chime in. >>>> >>>> Just curious what kind of high wind conditions anyone has dealt with > on >>>> their M17. 30 knots? 40? more? Anything that broke the rigging, blew >> out >>>> a sail, etc.? >>>> >>>> Part of the reason I'm asking... >>>> I've got a friend originally from South Africa who in his younger > days >>>> sailed bigger boats, racing, in the Cape region, where he says >> regularly >>>> it blows 30+ and they would commonly go out in 40+. Triple and >> quadruple >>>> reefs and storm jibs for a nice day on the water... :-! >>>> >>>> cheers, >>>> John >>>> >>>> -- >>>> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design >>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>> - Eco-Living - >>>> Whole Systems Design Services >>>> People - Place - Learning - Integration >>>> john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 >>>> http://eco-living.net >>>> http://sociocracyconsulting.com >> > > > -- > Jennifer Wood (she/her) > > Itinerant musician? > Try the Guide to the Universe! > https://www.buskersguidetotheuniverse.org/ > https://buskersguide.org <http://buskersguide.org> >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
This is on an M17 but yes to this: On 8/25/23 11:51, Dave Scobie wrote: ...
If the draft is good my next guess is that the main is over-trimmed: to much outhaul or over-sheeting (in to tight). The headsail may also be oversheeted.
I have been playing with this on my M17 as I also get varying helm with same sail area deployed in stronger winds. Not lee helm, but stronger or lesser weather helm. As mentioned a while back I put leech telltales on my main at start of this season - very helpful! - and found that I probably often had the main sheeted in too tight, causing excessive weather helm. Easing it a bit or lowering the traveler reduces the weather helm and also gets the leech telltales flying (meaning the sail was in too far and partly stalling). So sail trim is definitely a factor in helm pressure either way (weather or lee). How this translates to an M15 with no backstay and fractional rig I don't know but play with it as Dave suggests. cheers, John -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Outhaul ‘on’ or tight - flattens lower half of the mainsail- should help balance helm in higher breezes. Crew weight forward, bow down (wind) to get the boat sailing will assist in handling , many try sailing upwind in a ‘pinched mode’ and the boat will struggle with low power. Get the boat powered up (fall off wind a bit, ease sails, boat will get up to speed, then start bringing it upwind, but, do not stall the boat and rig as you will be grossly overpowered - more breeze requires more boat speed to reduce loading up the rig and overpowering the boat. Maximum boatspeed will allow one to sail, rig and blades will be effective (not stalled) and you will be surprised how much sail you can carry as long as it is not stalling. Boatspeed,boatspeed,boatspeed DO NOT SLOW THE BOAT. Wind speed measured with quality anemometer- my M-15, first reef and working jib is controllable to 18-20 knots and relatively flat water (waves minimal swell) Keep the boat moving as fast as possible. You will be surprised. Good luck,stay safe,have fUn! GO M-15 #330 ‘Cahoots’ On Fri, Aug 25, 2023 at 11:51 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Randy I ask about sails as usually the issue is they are 20+ years old and 'look fine'.
If the draft is good my next guess is that the main is over-trimmed: to much outhaul or over-sheeting (in to tight). The headsail may also be oversheeted.
Next is how is the boat crew seated? Back at the transom or up tight leaning against the cabin?
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sailboatswallow.wordpress.com/ :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com
On Fri, Aug 25, 2023, 11:26 Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Not sure, Dave. I had Harry at EP look at some video under sail and he said there was no reason to replace them at this time. The answer can’t always be “just get new sails”.
www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
On Aug 25, 2023, at 10:59 AM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
How old are the sails Rusty?
Double reef main and working jib for a M15 is a good set for 18-20kts+.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sailboatswallow.wordpress.com/ :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com
On Fri, Aug 25, 2023, 10:13 Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
How about sail balance when the wind kicks up? I’m on a (newer to me, although its my third) M15, and I’ve raked the mast back quite a lot to get rid of the lee helm the boat came with. Being a fractional rig, with a working jib we reef the main first, often twice when it blows too much for the rough conditions on Puget Sound. Sail balance seems to suffer after reefing, though, and the lee helm is back because of the larger sail area forward now, often making tacking almost impossible in the really rough water we get in Possession Sound.
I’m finding that unless I know it’s going to be a really light air day I just put on the “storm jib” (it isn’t in any way a storm jib, I don’t know why Monty sailors continue to call it that, it’s just a heavier air jib) and deal with the slight reduction in performance, until it inevitable blows stink about 4pm.
What is everyone else’s experience with balancing sails and managing weather/lee helm in changing conditions? (Mostly for M15’s)
Rusty on Sparrow
www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
On Aug 18, 2023, at 6:20 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
My solution, so far - I now have two furling/reefing jibs - the Genoa I got some years back (from Hyde) when I put the furler on, and a working jib that I got last year (from EP Sails).
Reason being, what is now my "local" lake is usually too windy for a Genoa or even close to it. Most of the time I was sailing with it reefed more than makes any sense for that size jib.
For typical "not crazy windy" conditions here, the working jib plus first reef in main is about right. If it pipes up more I can reef the jib as necessary. If it really pipes up, or I go out in higher winds on purpose, I might have 2nd reef in main and reefed working jib. Point being - it's a more appropriate and versatile combo for my typical local conditions.
In theory I could change jibs on the water (CDI furler, so luff tape just slides in/out the extrusion slot). But it's a bit more complicated than with hank-ons, and there's no point really, day sailing on a lake.
I find that the loss in speed from being slightly under-canvassed is minor (and, I'm not racing). I get enough thrills when the gusts come along and I'm just right or slightly over-canvassed for a few minutes.
For those who haven't already read this here or elsewhere, the M17 with a masthead rig is jib-driven more than main-driven. So I typically reduce main sail first. As mentioned, first reef in main but full working jib is a typical combo for me, and then I can reef the jib a bit if needed. But if I'm radically reefing the jib, then it's time to put 2nd reef in main.
It's not a storm jib equivalent, but I can reef the working jib down to a handkerchief if necessary. Also, knowing I'd be sailing often in gusty winds, I had it made of a wee bit heavier cloth than the default weight they would normally have used.
cheers, John
On 8/18/23 17:18, Jason Leckie wrote: Yes, lots of wind in the Pacific Northwest right now. This brings up the subject of storm jibs in my mind. I have one that came with my boat, although I have never pulled it out of the bag (maybe I did once when I first got the boat.), I think I will this weekend though. My sail on the furling rig is a full sized genoa that can’t be removed other than by dropping the mast or climbing the mast. Does anyone rig up a storm jib separate from the furling system and how do they do that? Of course I can just reduce the area of the genoa sail with the furler but perhaps using a storm jib can be better in very strong winds. I believe Dave Scobie may have mentioned something about this in the past. Thanks in advance for any responses Jason Leckie Kuma M17 Point Roberts,WA/ Vancouver, BC > On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 4:48 PM Larry Yake <larryyake@gmail.com> wrote: > Timely subject. I was just out today in steady winds of 20+ with prolonged > gusts of 30+ on Priest Lake in northern Idaho. One deep reef. Boat was > solid, no problems. > > On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 12:53 PM Jennifer Wood < > jennifer@buskersguidetotheuniverse.org> wrote: > >> Last year I was out in about 18mph w/ gusts > 25, and it was ... >> surprisingly stable with a storm jib and a single reef. This is a >> reassuring little boat! >> >> I have a new main on the way, and your stories have convinced me to ask >> them to put in a second reef. I'm hoping to get out on Superior next >> summer -- even if it's "just" the Apostle Islands. Things can change fast >> out there from what I hear, so it'll be good to have options. >> >> Somewhat relatedly, anyone spent time out on Rainy Lake? It's a "little" >> great lake of sorts. >> >> On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 11:43 AM Henry Rodriguez < heinzir@gmail.com
>> wrote: >> >>> I absolutely love going out in 25-30 knot winds. 40 knot gusts is the >>> highest I've been in. Storm jib and double reefed main. I don't get > ocean >>> size waves on my inland lake. >>> >>> The picture was taken just before I put the second reef in. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 18, 2023, 10:58 AM Jim Poulakis <picfo@comcast.net> wrote: >>> >>>> That beats me! >>>> >>>> In San Francisco Bay summer winds regularly get over 20 knots in > "the >>>> slot" around the Golden Gate Bridge. In wind vs. tide conditions the >>>> seas can get over 5' with steep breaking chop. With a fully reefed > main >>>> and a slab reefing jib "Spirit" handled these conditions with winds >>>> gusting well into the 30's without trouble. It's a great place to >> build >>>> confidence because if everything goes to hell help is *usually* > nearby. >>>> >>>> - Jim P. >>>> >>>> M17 "Spirit" >>>> >>>> On 8/18/2023 7:54 AM, jerry montgomery wrote: >>>>> A friend and I sailed to Catalina Island, probably in '84, when it >> was >>>> blowing 42 with gusts of 50. These were Coast Guard figures. Wind > was >>>> right on the nose. We got to the well-sheltered Avalon Bay well > after >>> dark >>>> and gratefully tied up to a mooring. >>>>> >>>>> Waves were WAY higher than the mast! >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < >>>> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 11:09 PM >>>>> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < >>>> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> >>>>> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> >>>>> Subject: M_Boats: What's the biggest wind you've been out in? >>>>> >>>>> A question for the list...especially M17s, but 15s and 23s feel > free >> to >>>>> chime in. >>>>> >>>>> Just curious what kind of high wind conditions anyone has dealt > with >> on >>>>> their M17. 30 knots? 40? more? Anything that broke the rigging, > blew >>> out >>>>> a sail, etc.? >>>>> >>>>> Part of the reason I'm asking... >>>>> I've got a friend originally from South Africa who in his younger >> days >>>>> sailed bigger boats, racing, in the Cape region, where he says >>> regularly >>>>> it blows 30+ and they would commonly go out in 40+. Triple and >>> quadruple >>>>> reefs and storm jibs for a nice day on the water... :-! >>>>> >>>>> cheers, >>>>> John >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design >>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>> - Eco-Living - >>>>> Whole Systems Design Services >>>>> People - Place - Learning - Integration >>>>> john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 >>>>> http://eco-living.net >>>>> http://sociocracyconsulting.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Jennifer Wood (she/her) >> >> Itinerant musician? >> Try the Guide to the Universe! >> https://www.buskersguidetotheuniverse.org/ >> https://buskersguide.org <http://buskersguide.org> >> >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Good points, Gary. Keeping up speed is damn hard in Possession Sound as an underwater shelf builds incredibly steep and choppy conditions that constantly try to stall the boat. I wish we could get an M15 skills weekend here in Everett, there could be a lot learned by sailing in these weird conditions. Thanks for those sail tuning tips, Dave. I’m singlehanded and sail as far forward as my tiller extension could reach. I recently replaced it with a telescoping one so I should be able to get further forward. www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
On Aug 25, 2023, at 12:37 PM, Gary H.Oberbeck <fairandsquare1@gmail.com> wrote:
Outhaul ‘on’ or tight - flattens lower half of the mainsail- should help balance helm in higher breezes. Crew weight forward, bow down (wind) to get the boat sailing will assist in handling , many try sailing upwind in a ‘pinched mode’ and the boat will struggle with low power. Get the boat powered up (fall off wind a bit, ease sails, boat will get up to speed, then start bringing it upwind, but, do not stall the boat and rig as you will be grossly overpowered - more breeze requires more boat speed to reduce loading up the rig and overpowering the boat. Maximum boatspeed will allow one to sail, rig and blades will be effective (not stalled) and you will be surprised how much sail you can carry as long as it is not stalling. Boatspeed,boatspeed,boatspeed DO NOT SLOW THE BOAT. Wind speed measured with quality anemometer- my M-15, first reef and working jib is controllable to 18-20 knots and relatively flat water (waves minimal swell)
Keep the boat moving as fast as possible. You will be surprised.
Good luck,stay safe,have fUn! GO M-15 #330 ‘Cahoots’
On Fri, Aug 25, 2023 at 11:51 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Randy I ask about sails as usually the issue is they are 20+ years old and 'look fine'.
If the draft is good my next guess is that the main is over-trimmed: to much outhaul or over-sheeting (in to tight). The headsail may also be oversheeted.
Next is how is the boat crew seated? Back at the transom or up tight leaning against the cabin?
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sailboatswallow.wordpress.com/ :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com
On Fri, Aug 25, 2023, 11:26 Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Not sure, Dave. I had Harry at EP look at some video under sail and he said there was no reason to replace them at this time. The answer can’t always be “just get new sails”.
www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
On Aug 25, 2023, at 10:59 AM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
How old are the sails Rusty?
Double reef main and working jib for a M15 is a good set for 18-20kts+.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sailboatswallow.wordpress.com/ :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com
On Fri, Aug 25, 2023, 10:13 Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
How about sail balance when the wind kicks up? I’m on a (newer to me, although its my third) M15, and I’ve raked the mast back quite a lot to get rid of the lee helm the boat came with. Being a fractional rig, with a working jib we reef the main first, often twice when it blows too much for the rough conditions on Puget Sound. Sail balance seems to suffer after reefing, though, and the lee helm is back because of the larger sail area forward now, often making tacking almost impossible in the really rough water we get in Possession Sound.
I’m finding that unless I know it’s going to be a really light air day I just put on the “storm jib” (it isn’t in any way a storm jib, I don’t know why Monty sailors continue to call it that, it’s just a heavier air jib) and deal with the slight reduction in performance, until it inevitable blows stink about 4pm.
What is everyone else’s experience with balancing sails and managing weather/lee helm in changing conditions? (Mostly for M15’s)
Rusty on Sparrow
www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
On Aug 18, 2023, at 6:20 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
My solution, so far - I now have two furling/reefing jibs - the Genoa I got some years back (from Hyde) when I put the furler on, and a working jib that I got last year (from EP Sails).
Reason being, what is now my "local" lake is usually too windy for a Genoa or even close to it. Most of the time I was sailing with it reefed more than makes any sense for that size jib.
For typical "not crazy windy" conditions here, the working jib plus first reef in main is about right. If it pipes up more I can reef the jib as necessary. If it really pipes up, or I go out in higher winds on purpose, I might have 2nd reef in main and reefed working jib. Point being - it's a more appropriate and versatile combo for my typical local conditions.
In theory I could change jibs on the water (CDI furler, so luff tape just slides in/out the extrusion slot). But it's a bit more complicated than with hank-ons, and there's no point really, day sailing on a lake.
I find that the loss in speed from being slightly under-canvassed is minor (and, I'm not racing). I get enough thrills when the gusts come along and I'm just right or slightly over-canvassed for a few minutes.
For those who haven't already read this here or elsewhere, the M17 with a masthead rig is jib-driven more than main-driven. So I typically reduce main sail first. As mentioned, first reef in main but full working jib is a typical combo for me, and then I can reef the jib a bit if needed. But if I'm radically reefing the jib, then it's time to put 2nd reef in main.
It's not a storm jib equivalent, but I can reef the working jib down to a handkerchief if necessary. Also, knowing I'd be sailing often in gusty winds, I had it made of a wee bit heavier cloth than the default weight they would normally have used.
cheers, John
> On 8/18/23 17:18, Jason Leckie wrote: > Yes, lots of wind in the Pacific Northwest right now. > This brings up the subject of storm jibs in my mind. I have one that came > with my boat, although I have never pulled it out of the bag (maybe I did > once when I first got the boat.), I think I will this weekend though. > My sail on the furling rig is a full sized genoa that can’t be removed > other than by dropping the mast or climbing the mast. Does anyone rig up a > storm jib separate from the furling system and how do they do that? > Of course I can just reduce the area of the genoa sail with the furler but > perhaps using a storm jib can be better in very strong winds. I believe > Dave Scobie may have mentioned something about this in the past. > Thanks in advance for any responses > Jason Leckie > Kuma > M17 > Point Roberts,WA/ > Vancouver, BC >> On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 4:48 PM Larry Yake <larryyake@gmail.com> wrote: >> Timely subject. I was just out today in steady winds of 20+ with prolonged >> gusts of 30+ on Priest Lake in northern Idaho. One deep reef. Boat was >> solid, no problems. >> >> On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 12:53 PM Jennifer Wood < >> jennifer@buskersguidetotheuniverse.org> wrote: >> >>> Last year I was out in about 18mph w/ gusts > 25, and it was ... >>> surprisingly stable with a storm jib and a single reef. This is a >>> reassuring little boat! >>> >>> I have a new main on the way, and your stories have convinced me to ask >>> them to put in a second reef. I'm hoping to get out on Superior next >>> summer -- even if it's "just" the Apostle Islands. Things can change fast >>> out there from what I hear, so it'll be good to have options. >>> >>> Somewhat relatedly, anyone spent time out on Rainy Lake? It's a "little" >>> great lake of sorts. >>> >>> On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 11:43 AM Henry Rodriguez < heinzir@gmail.com
>>> wrote: >>> >>>> I absolutely love going out in 25-30 knot winds. 40 knot gusts is the >>>> highest I've been in. Storm jib and double reefed main. I don't get >> ocean >>>> size waves on my inland lake. >>>> >>>> The picture was taken just before I put the second reef in. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Aug 18, 2023, 10:58 AM Jim Poulakis <picfo@comcast.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>> That beats me! >>>>> >>>>> In San Francisco Bay summer winds regularly get over 20 knots in >> "the >>>>> slot" around the Golden Gate Bridge. In wind vs. tide conditions the >>>>> seas can get over 5' with steep breaking chop. With a fully reefed >> main >>>>> and a slab reefing jib "Spirit" handled these conditions with winds >>>>> gusting well into the 30's without trouble. It's a great place to >>> build >>>>> confidence because if everything goes to hell help is *usually* >> nearby. >>>>> >>>>> - Jim P. >>>>> >>>>> M17 "Spirit" >>>>> >>>>> On 8/18/2023 7:54 AM, jerry montgomery wrote: >>>>>> A friend and I sailed to Catalina Island, probably in '84, when it >>> was >>>>> blowing 42 with gusts of 50. These were Coast Guard figures. Wind >> was >>>>> right on the nose. We got to the well-sheltered Avalon Bay well >> after >>>> dark >>>>> and gratefully tied up to a mooring. >>>>>> >>>>>> Waves were WAY higher than the mast! >>>>>> >>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>> From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < >>>>> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 11:09 PM >>>>>> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < >>>>> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> >>>>>> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> >>>>>> Subject: M_Boats: What's the biggest wind you've been out in? >>>>>> >>>>>> A question for the list...especially M17s, but 15s and 23s feel >> free >>> to >>>>>> chime in. >>>>>> >>>>>> Just curious what kind of high wind conditions anyone has dealt >> with >>> on >>>>>> their M17. 30 knots? 40? more? Anything that broke the rigging, >> blew >>>> out >>>>>> a sail, etc.? >>>>>> >>>>>> Part of the reason I'm asking... >>>>>> I've got a friend originally from South Africa who in his younger >>> days >>>>>> sailed bigger boats, racing, in the Cape region, where he says >>>> regularly >>>>>> it blows 30+ and they would commonly go out in 40+. Triple and >>>> quadruple >>>>>> reefs and storm jibs for a nice day on the water... :-! >>>>>> >>>>>> cheers, >>>>>> John >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design >>>>>> -------------------------------------------- >>>>>> - Eco-Living - >>>>>> Whole Systems Design Services >>>>>> People - Place - Learning - Integration >>>>>> john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 >>>>>> http://eco-living.net >>>>>> http://sociocracyconsulting.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Jennifer Wood (she/her) >>> >>> Itinerant musician? >>> Try the Guide to the Universe! >>> https://www.buskersguidetotheuniverse.org/ >>> https://buskersguide.org <http://buskersguide.org> >>> >>
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Interesting, I had the same issue on my M15, for reasons that never made sense to me. Lee helm would always appear on my M15 in heavy weather (20+ knots) sailing with the main double reefed, and a small "storm" jib up. I had the mast raked far aft and plenty of weather helm under full sail. Perhaps the storm jib was still too large to balance out the deep 2nd reef I had in the main. I wish there had been some way to adjust the mast rake under sail... there is an Olson 25 at Berkeley Yacht Club that wins almost every beercan race, and they seem to have both an adjustable forestay and an adjustable backstay such that they can radically alter the mast rake during a race as desired. Sincerely, Tyler ----- Original Message ----- From: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: "Rusty Knorr" <rustyinafrica@yahoo.com> Sent: Friday, August 25, 2023 10:13:01 AM Subject: M_Boats: Bigger winds and sail balance How about sail balance when the wind kicks up? I’m on a (newer to me, although its my third) M15, and I’ve raked the mast back quite a lot to get rid of the lee helm the boat came with. Being a fractional rig, with a working jib we reef the main first, often twice when it blows too much for the rough conditions on Puget Sound. Sail balance seems to suffer after reefing, though, and the lee helm is back because of the larger sail area forward now, often making tacking almost impossible in the really rough water we get in Possession Sound. I’m finding that unless I know it’s going to be a really light air day I just put on the “storm jib” (it isn’t in any way a storm jib, I don’t know why Monty sailors continue to call it that, it’s just a heavier air jib) and deal with the slight reduction in performance, until it inevitable blows stink about 4pm. What is everyone else’s experience with balancing sails and managing weather/lee helm in changing conditions? (Mostly for M15’s) Rusty on Sparrow www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
On Aug 18, 2023, at 6:20 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
My solution, so far - I now have two furling/reefing jibs - the Genoa I got some years back (from Hyde) when I put the furler on, and a working jib that I got last year (from EP Sails).
Reason being, what is now my "local" lake is usually too windy for a Genoa or even close to it. Most of the time I was sailing with it reefed more than makes any sense for that size jib.
For typical "not crazy windy" conditions here, the working jib plus first reef in main is about right. If it pipes up more I can reef the jib as necessary. If it really pipes up, or I go out in higher winds on purpose, I might have 2nd reef in main and reefed working jib. Point being - it's a more appropriate and versatile combo for my typical local conditions.
In theory I could change jibs on the water (CDI furler, so luff tape just slides in/out the extrusion slot). But it's a bit more complicated than with hank-ons, and there's no point really, day sailing on a lake.
I find that the loss in speed from being slightly under-canvassed is minor (and, I'm not racing). I get enough thrills when the gusts come along and I'm just right or slightly over-canvassed for a few minutes.
For those who haven't already read this here or elsewhere, the M17 with a masthead rig is jib-driven more than main-driven. So I typically reduce main sail first. As mentioned, first reef in main but full working jib is a typical combo for me, and then I can reef the jib a bit if needed. But if I'm radically reefing the jib, then it's time to put 2nd reef in main.
It's not a storm jib equivalent, but I can reef the working jib down to a handkerchief if necessary. Also, knowing I'd be sailing often in gusty winds, I had it made of a wee bit heavier cloth than the default weight they would normally have used.
cheers, John
On 8/18/23 17:18, Jason Leckie wrote: Yes, lots of wind in the Pacific Northwest right now. This brings up the subject of storm jibs in my mind. I have one that came with my boat, although I have never pulled it out of the bag (maybe I did once when I first got the boat.), I think I will this weekend though. My sail on the furling rig is a full sized genoa that can’t be removed other than by dropping the mast or climbing the mast. Does anyone rig up a storm jib separate from the furling system and how do they do that? Of course I can just reduce the area of the genoa sail with the furler but perhaps using a storm jib can be better in very strong winds. I believe Dave Scobie may have mentioned something about this in the past. Thanks in advance for any responses Jason Leckie Kuma M17 Point Roberts,WA/ Vancouver, BC
On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 4:48 PM Larry Yake <larryyake@gmail.com> wrote: Timely subject. I was just out today in steady winds of 20+ with prolonged gusts of 30+ on Priest Lake in northern Idaho. One deep reef. Boat was solid, no problems.
On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 12:53 PM Jennifer Wood < jennifer@buskersguidetotheuniverse.org> wrote:
Last year I was out in about 18mph w/ gusts > 25, and it was ... surprisingly stable with a storm jib and a single reef. This is a reassuring little boat!
I have a new main on the way, and your stories have convinced me to ask them to put in a second reef. I'm hoping to get out on Superior next summer -- even if it's "just" the Apostle Islands. Things can change fast out there from what I hear, so it'll be good to have options.
Somewhat relatedly, anyone spent time out on Rainy Lake? It's a "little" great lake of sorts.
On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 11:43 AM Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
I absolutely love going out in 25-30 knot winds. 40 knot gusts is the highest I've been in. Storm jib and double reefed main. I don't get ocean size waves on my inland lake.
The picture was taken just before I put the second reef in.
On Fri, Aug 18, 2023, 10:58 AM Jim Poulakis <picfo@comcast.net> wrote:
That beats me!
In San Francisco Bay summer winds regularly get over 20 knots in "the slot" around the Golden Gate Bridge. In wind vs. tide conditions the seas can get over 5' with steep breaking chop. With a fully reefed main and a slab reefing jib "Spirit" handled these conditions with winds gusting well into the 30's without trouble. It's a great place to build confidence because if everything goes to hell help is *usually* nearby.
- Jim P.
M17 "Spirit"
On 8/18/2023 7:54 AM, jerry montgomery wrote: > A friend and I sailed to Catalina Island, probably in '84, when it was blowing 42 with gusts of 50. These were Coast Guard figures. Wind was right on the nose. We got to the well-sheltered Avalon Bay well after dark and gratefully tied up to a mooring. > > Waves were WAY higher than the mast! > > ________________________________ > From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> > Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 11:09 PM > To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> > Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> > Subject: M_Boats: What's the biggest wind you've been out in? > > A question for the list...especially M17s, but 15s and 23s feel free to > chime in. > > Just curious what kind of high wind conditions anyone has dealt with on > their M17. 30 knots? 40? more? Anything that broke the rigging, blew out > a sail, etc.? > > Part of the reason I'm asking... > I've got a friend originally from South Africa who in his younger days > sailed bigger boats, racing, in the Cape region, where he says regularly > it blows 30+ and they would commonly go out in 40+. Triple and quadruple > reefs and storm jibs for a nice day on the water... :-! > > cheers, > John > > -- > John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design > -------------------------------------------- > - Eco-Living - > Whole Systems Design Services > People - Place - Learning - Integration > john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 > http://eco-living.net > http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- Jennifer Wood (she/her)
Itinerant musician? Try the Guide to the Universe! https://www.buskersguidetotheuniverse.org/ https://buskersguide.org <http://buskersguide.org>
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
participants (5)
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casioqv＠usermail.com -
Dave Scobie -
Gary H.Oberbeck -
John Schinnerer -
Rusty Knorr