Here

What year did Jerry change from steel to lead ballast?? Anyone. <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:

Here

A magnet. Ha, good idea. <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 12:54 PM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:

87 or 88. Bring a magnet to stick on the keel if you're in doubt.

Sent from my iPad

...

On Jan 30, 2016, at 10:53 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:

What year did Jerry change from steel to lead ballast?? Anyone. < https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaig...

This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast. www.avast.com < https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaig...

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On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> wrote:

...

Here

Search for "lead" in the text for dates, about the 5th paragraph. Article available at ftp://ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/montgomery_boats/archive/ or linked from https://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats First the apology. This article is stolen from the Spring 1995 issue of the Montgomery Owner's Newsletter. Since this was complimentary issue, I hope the publisher won't mind my unauthorized reproduction here. Second, the commercial. If you aren't receiving the Montgomery Owner's Newsletter then this is the kind of article that you are missing. Send a $15 check made out to Terry Schwarze to Terry at: P.O. Box 1091 Winona, WI 55987 You can reach Terry by e-mail at schwarze@VAX2.Winona.MSUS.EDU [Sadly, the MON is long gone. In part, because of this list] ============================================================================== DESIGN CHANGES THROUGH THE YEARS by Jerry Montgomery A HISTORY OF THE 17: The Montgomerty 17 was designed by Lyle Hess, a well-known and highly respected designer of blue-water cruising boats, as an able coastal cruiser; small enough to be easily trailered but capable of moderate offshore passages. The first 17s were made as fixed keel boats, with a 525 lb. cast iron, bolt-on keel, and we took the first two to the Newport, RI, and Annapolis, MD boat shows in the fall of ?73 and sold over 30 of them between the two shows, strictly on the reputations of the designer and builder and the obvious quality of the boat. Several of these were fixed keel boats, but most were orders for the announced keel/centerboard version. A total of about 20 of the early fixed keel 17s were made and the remain very stiff, seaworthy boats. (These boats are now old enough that keel bolts should be replaced for safety?s sake, and I still have a supply of the old 5/8" hi-tensile galvanized steel bolts, which are very difficult to find now). Soon after the shows, we finished the tooling for the still-current keel/CB version. I believe that the M-17 was the first production boat to use end-grain balsa coring in the deck. In the late 70?s we made several flush deck 17s, which were a racing version with a flat deck like a Soling or Etchells 22, with no house and a small, self bailing cockpit. This started out as a lark, actually, because a good friend, also a boat builder, agreed to make the plug (mock-up) for the new deck mold in exchange for a 17 hull, which he wanted to finish off and sail to Hawaii. I made a mold off the plug, and made the first boat, Coyote, for myself. [I believe Coyote now belongs to John & Anne Lubliner in Tucson, AZ - kdiehl] I took it to the October race in Guaymas, Mexico a few weeks later, and even though I did not yet have a spinnaker, finished 6th boat-for-boat on the first day and 2nd on the second day. A Venture 17 and I were the two smallest boats in the fleet, and not knowing anything about a Montgomery 17, let alone a flush deck 17, the race committee rated me the same as the Venture, which is a slow boat, and I won by so much on corrected time the first day that I had only to finish on he second day in order to take first overall. I also won the second day. Later in the year, I sold Coyote (to an incredible guy in Tucson who won the Guaymas race the next two years with it) to help dig up money for the down payment on a house. The flush deck was a little lighter than a normal 17, had less windage because of the flat deck, and had a taller and higher aspect rig. It was a handful in a blow, but a light air bomb! I ended up building 9 of them, but destroyed the deck mold when I moved to the Sacramento area in 1987. During the late 70?s we also made 15 or 20 tall rig 17?s; the mast was 1?9" taller than normal. Most of these were sold in the light-air areas of southern California and Arizona (mostly sailed in the Sea of Cortez). In 1981 we retooled the 17, mostly because the molds had had several hundred boats made form them and were getting worn out, but incorporated several minor changes, like improving the windows, cockpit drainage, and the hull/deck joint, and changing the toe rails, forward hatch details, etc. In about ?84 we changed from extruded aluminum toe rails to those of teak, mostly because of changing market trends. In 1987 we made a centerboard change; from cast iron to fiberglass with a lead core. The new centerboards were thicker in section but smaller in profile, and I can?t tell the difference between the two types in sailing them. This change was made in response to death threats and other complaints resulting from the rusting problem common to cast iron. The new centerboards are no better, but they don?t rust. The older ones are probably more reliable, being cast iron, but we?ve had no problems with the new after 6 years. At the same time, we changed from steel to lead ballast, and increased the total ballast weight from 55 to 600 lbs. The older, pre-81 17s are nearly as good as the newer; the difference being mostly that of cosmetics and other slight refinements, but they are usually a good bit less expensive in the broker?s yards. The biggest improvement in the 1981 17 was the addition of the wet locker, and the resulting improvement in cockpit drainage. Other changes have been in the interior. Originally the 17 had a "three berth" interior; a double berth forward and a quarter berth on the starboard. On port, opposite the starboard berth, was a molded-in galley unit consisting of a sink with storage under, and a place for a stove. A few years later (about ?78 or so) we tooled a new interior with four berths, replacing the galley unit with a port side quarter berth which was a mirror-image of the starboard berth. Neither of these interiors was perfect. The 3-berth lacked sitting room below; two people could shoehorn themselves onto the starboard berth and sit there like a couple of sardines, but it was far from comfortable. The galley/sink unit was seldom used except in cold or wet weather. And its most valuable qualities were the storage under, and even more important, the cockpit storage behind it, accessible through the port side cockpit hatch. The 4-berth had great sitting room for two people (or cramped room for four), but no galley for storage, and since the portside quarter berth ran all the way back under the cockpit, no storage there. To me, the 4-berth was the least desirable of the interiors. In about ?87, we changed to the present interior, which is an adaptation of the previous two. On port, instead of the galley, we have a shortened (5? long) berth that allows the much-needed sitting room and is long enough for a half-grown kid to sleep on, but still leaves enough room behind it for cockpit accessed storage. This is by far the best interior of the three and we have long since discontinued the other two. COCKPIT DRAINAGE: The 17 has a large cockpit with high coamings and has an unusual and highly effective drainage system. The cockpit drains into a "wet locker" which is at the aft end of the cockpit next to the transom, through two ?" drains. This wet locker drains our through the transom, one of which can be used to pass out the fuel line for an outboard (or the cable for an electric motor). These are above the waterline and involve no hoses or clamps, and are intended to drain off a great volume of water quickly. Two ?" drains consisting of copper pipes bonded to the hull and the underside of the wet locker portion of the deck, connected by hoses. These are set lower than the primary drains, and are intended to bleed off any water left in the wet locker. They are small in order to reduce any water backing into the cockpit or wet locker from a heavily laden boat in rough water. A great advantage of this system is that additional drainage can easily be provided by simply cutting more holes through the back of the cockpit well, into the wet locker, and our through the transom. A sailor planning on some real blue-water sailing could add 6 or 8 additional holes, which would be an extremely effective system for very rough conditions. COCKPIT LOCKERS: There are three cockpit stowage lockers in the 17; a port side locker that is quite large and goes all the way to the bottom of the hull and is intended for anchor, chain, and rode, but has plenty of additional room for fenders, dock lines, etc; a starboard locker in the form of a 21"x8"x4" enclosed box that is ideal for navigational gear, winch handles, etc. and the previously-mentioned wet locker that is ideal; for fuel storage and a muddy anchor. These three lockers all have identical hatch covers that are 12"x25"; the hatch openings themselves are about an inch smaller in both dimensions. All hinges are stainless, and we use an ingenious locking setup for the port and starboard hatches using line and clam cleats, accessible from the interior, that is much cleaner than the normal hasps and padlocks. INTERIOR STOWAGE: All interior storage areas in the 17 are sealed off by bulkheads, sanded smooth, and painted with interior gelcoat. No rough edges and glass slivers! We take great pride in our workmanship in areas where you cannot see, such as underneath the berths and cockpit. The interior molding, itself, is engineered not only for great strength but for utility and abundant storage. There are three access openings into the storage area under the forward berth; one large one on the starboard side over the head, and two smaller ones (13x17), one on the port side for access to the battery and to the back side of the master switch and switch panel, if so equipped, and the forward opening is for access to the vast area forward of the head and battery. I load up this area with as much as 20 gallons of water (mostly in 1 gal. plastic jugs) when cruising in Mexico. Under each quarter berth is storage that is p[perfect for anything heavy and in small containers, like soft drinks, canned food, tackle boxes, and tools. MASTHEAD RIG: The 17 has a masthead rig, with spreaders, upper and lower shrouds, and a split backstay. The masthead rig provides more sail flexibility than other rigs and provides larger genoas and spinnakers for light air performance. The backstay chain plates and the connecting triangle have extra holes to simplify the job of adding a backstay adjuster. The 17, like most larger mast-headed boats, is usually sailed with a 150% genoa. ONE-PIECE RUDDER: We have elected to use a vertical-sliding, one piece rudder on the 17 for the sake of strength and reliability. The boat is made for severe conditions and we didn?t want the rudder to be the weak link, as it is in most trailerables. The rudder slides up and down on a ?" bronze rod so that it can be installed while the boat is on the trailer, before launching, in the up position, then dropped to the down position after the boat is in the water. The rudder is made of mahogany out of 1 ?" thick stock. KEEL BILGE: In the aft part of the keel, behind the centerboard trunk, is an open bilge. Any water that finds itself into the boat will collect in the bilge and can be easily dipped or pumped out instead of sloshing around in the bottom of the boat. Also, when cruising, I dump the chain of the spare anchor and rode on top of it. This locks it in place where it becomes additional ballast but allows the anchor to be taken out quickly if needed. Our 15 had this same ad advantage. BALSA CORE DECK: We have more man hours in laying up the deck than we do in the hull! The 17 deck weighs less then 250 lbs yet is extremely stiff and strong. End-grain balsa is expensive and labor-intensive but is worth every penny. The CG (center of gravity) of the boat is lowered considerably, there is less strain on the hull-deck joint because of the stiffness, and it insulates from heat and cold and deadens sound. Spider cracks from flexing are eliminated. Unless my memory fails me, we started using balsa in 1974 and were one of the very first production builders to do so. Now, most of the more expensive builders use it, but the builders of the price boats use plywood or particle board or a slurry made from sawdust and resin, or nothing at all. Our decks are one of the secrets behind our outstanding reputation. The 15 deck is built the same way. PERFORMANCE: I?m the kind of guy that from the first time I went sailing I tried to pass every boat in sight, and I?m not alone. One of the fun things in life is to work your way past a Catalina 22 and, once ahead and upwind, oversheet just a bit to rub it in. The 17 is a giant killer. A well-tuned 17 is very close-winded and excels in the extremes. She glides along beautifully in a drifter and will outsail most trailerables of 20 to 22 feet in a blow, particularly upwind. Boats like Potters and Compacs are so far behind they might as well be going the other way, A slow boat is not fun to sail, and I imagine that it?s not fun to have a couple of little kids in an 8? pram jeer at you as they overtake and sail past. A boat that is a dog in light air or won?t sail to weather against a 25 knot wind is frustrating and a real bore. Think about it. I sometimes joke about "floaters" or "floating house trailers" (boats that float around rather than sail), but they?re really not a joke if your are trying to sail one. I have the attitude that the first requirement of a sailboat is to sail well and I take great pains to make the 17 an outstanding sailboat. ============

On Jan 30, 2016, at 10:45 AM, Jazzy <jazzydaze@gmail.com> wrote:

David could you post a link to a picture of the disease? I'm scared and don't even know what it is yet! Are we talking the trunk base in the cabin where it joins the floor?

That was a good idea, since I can see more in the photo than crowded under the trailer. https://www.dropbox.com/s/qpcsj0x3ddrwv3r/P1300005-2.jpg?dl=0 This is looking about 45 degrees up directly across the bottom of the stub keel. The white surface at the bottom is the bottom of the keel. The rusty stripe at top is the bottom of the rusty centerboard. In the right half below the centerboard is the edge of the trunk. It looks like it has just popped loose from the keel, 1/4” to 3/8” all around. I have a queasy idea that the white tubes are some sort of worm or insect tubes. (By the way, the boat’s an ’85 not ’84 as I said.)

I did exactly what Dave recommends here- I cleaned up the joint with a dremel, laid two or three strips of glass, sanded it smooth, and painted over it with two part gel-coat. It seems to be holding up well after a few years, however the job killed my cheap cordless dremel. I'm not too worried about the steel ballast anymore as it should stay dry now. It would have been a quick and easy job if I hadn't put an 8" long hole deep up inside the trunk trying to hammer the stuck centerboard down from the top with a steel rod. Tyler Davis, CA M15 #157 "Defiant"

On Jan 30, 2016, at 1:46 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:

If that entire joint is not weeping rust you likely have no issue with the keel ballast.

That joint was just filled with thickened resin. Not hard to grind it out with a dremel to get a rough surface and then lay and some fiberglass, then thickened resin, and then cover over with some fiberglass. Sand smooth. Paint over with your coat.

For the fiberglass work late in some mat, and then cloth, not just cloth as will pop off.

Somewhere I think I have pictures of this repair being done. I'll look for photos when I get back to Golden.

:: Dave Scobie

so in the centerboard stuck? what brand of trailer do you have? -- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 11:48 AM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:

...

On Jan 30, 2016, at 12:10 AM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:

Finally got around to looking at the keel on my (’84) M17 and it has the disease—the centerboard trunk is separated all the way around the lip. I can have it hoisted up next week and see if the centerboard operates. If not…well, let’s worry about that later.

The local boat shop (there are not a lot of them in Tucson) looked at my keel and I think it blew their minds. Anyway the price they quoted to fix it blew mine.

My main hesitation in trying it myself is lifting the boat. I think the shop will let me use their hoist to get the centerboard in and out, but I’d have to work on it at home. That means stands, blocks, and jacks, and working on a dirt surface. I’m not feeling good about it.

Is there a shop in the Phoenix area worth talking to?

I have learned a hard lesson that if I do not get the centerboard on my M-15 all the way up and tied firmly, it will slip down enough on the trailer to stick between the cross members of the trailer and I need to refloat the boat to get the board up then get the boat repositioned correctly on the trailer. Is your centerboard stuck on the trailer? Steve M-15 # 335 -----Original Message----- From: David Rifkind Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2016 9:33 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Trunk Disease

On Feb 11, 2016, at 1:07 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:

so in the centerboard stuck?

what brand of trailer do you have?

I don’t know if the centerboard is stuck but I don’t think so. My father in law says it worked the last time the boat was in the water. Indications are the joint sprung while sitting on the trailer for 10+ years. The trailer is an EZ Loader: wishbone frame, two rollers under the back half of the keel (supporting the edge of the centerboard), six wobble rollers on each side. I’ve been trying to figure out if it can be jacked up. The axle and the crossmember carrying the rollers would have to come off. That leaves only the rearmost crossmember[*], right under the tail of the keel, which (with something to fill the gap) would support the keel if that 4” patch is enough to, basically, hold up the whole boat. On odd-numbered days it looks like a good idea and on ever-numbered days it looks impossible. (And Friday the 13th comes on a Friday this month.) [*] Plus a cross-brace up near the fork.

People must have lifted their boats. How about some ideas, please. My keel is stuck also. (Along with a leak...) Thanks, David Eisner Dancer -----Original Message----- From: David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sat, Feb 13, 2016 9:34 am Subject: Re: M_Boats: Trunk Disease

On Feb 11, 2016, at 1:07 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:

so in the centerboard stuck?

what brand of trailer do you have?

I don’t know if the centerboard is stuck but I don’t think so. My father in law says it worked the last time the boat was in the water. Indications are the joint sprung while sitting on the trailer for 10+ years. The trailer is an EZ Loader: wishbone frame, two rollers under the back half of the keel (supporting the edge of the centerboard), six wobble rollers on each side. I’ve been trying to figure out if it can be jacked up. The axle and the crossmember carrying the rollers would have to come off. That leaves only the rearmost crossmember[*], right under the tail of the keel, which (with something to fill the gap) would support the keel if that 4” patch is enough to, basically, hold up the whole boat. On odd-numbered days it looks like a good idea and on ever-numbered days it looks impossible. (And Friday the 13th comes on a Friday this month.) [*] Plus a cross-brace up near the fork.

On 2/15/2016 10:40 AM, Thomas Buzzi wrote: _*WORD OF CAUTION *_When you start a project like this, be sure that you have chocks in front of and in back of both trailer wheels. You want a controlled trailer removal process. I didn't do that when I started jacking up the bow of my derelict ComPac 16 in my garage that I was going to strip and repaint. (My plan was to push a beam under the bow and then jack up the stern and do the same there) At that point, the boat weight was on the rear support of the trailer; the front of the trailer rose in the air; the boat slide rapidly downhill to be stopped by the garage wall (with historic dents to commemorate my idiocy); the trailer then squirted out from under the boat, and I was faced with getting the ComPac 16 off the floor, and suitably blocked up again. Don't let this happen to you too. Connie

David, I built a half dozen jacks out of lumber with threaded rods in them and gradually pulled the boat off the trailer and as I did so I inserted three pairs of jacks under the hull. Had it that way for over a year and was able to totally rehab the board as well as redo the hull painting. Just reversed the procedure to get the boat back on the trailer. Send me your email and I can show you a picture of how I built the jacks. Fair winds, Tom B

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On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 2:08 AM, David Eisner via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:

...

People must have lifted their boats. How about some ideas, please. My keel is stuck also. (Along with a leak...) Thanks, David Eisner Dancer

-----Original Message----- From: David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sat, Feb 13, 2016 9:34 am Subject: Re: M_Boats: Trunk Disease

...

On Feb 11, 2016, at 1:07 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:

so in the centerboard stuck?

what brand of trailer do you have? I don’t know if the centerboard is stuck but I don’t think so. My father in law says it worked the last time the boat was in the water. Indications are the joint sprung while sitting on the trailer for 10+ years.

The trailer is an EZ Loader: wishbone frame, two rollers under the back half of the keel (supporting the edge of the centerboard), six wobble rollers on each side. I’ve been trying to figure out if it can be jacked up. The axle and the crossmember carrying the rollers would have to come off. That leaves only the rearmost crossmember[*], right under the tail of the keel, which (with something to fill the gap) would support the keel if that 4” patch is enough to, basically, hold up the whole boat.

On odd-numbered days it looks like a good idea and on ever-numbered days it looks impossible. (And Friday the 13th comes on a Friday this month.)

[*] Plus a cross-brace up near the fork.

I was able to easily remove the centerboard on my M15 and seal the trunk while on the trailer, but it wasn't swollen. I jacked up the trailer a few feet and set the frame on cinder blocks, and then removed the axle which was centered under the centerboard and keel. This opened up enough room to work easily, but I was lucky that my trailer has no cross-beams under the keel. I did this all in the front driveway over a few weekends of work, and don't think the neighbors were happy about it. Tyler

On Feb 11, 2016, at 10:48 AM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:

...

On Jan 30, 2016, at 12:10 AM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:

Finally got around to looking at the keel on my (’84) M17 and it has the disease—the centerboard trunk is separated all the way around the lip. I can have it hoisted up next week and see if the centerboard operates. If not…well, let’s worry about that later.

The local boat shop (there are not a lot of them in Tucson) looked at my keel and I think it blew their minds. Anyway the price they quoted to fix it blew mine.

My main hesitation in trying it myself is lifting the boat. I think the shop will let me use their hoist to get the centerboard in and out, but I’d have to work on it at home. That means stands, blocks, and jacks, and working on a dirt surface. I’m not feeling good about it.

Is there a shop in the Phoenix area worth talking to?