I can't speak to the sea keeping ability of the 15 as I have not sailed one. I know when it gets to blowing my 17 hunters down and does what it does best. Gets me back to the marina with little fuss. I seem to catch up to the speed demons when it pipes up as my boat surges on and their boats round up. When it comes to rigging and un rigging times it all about efficiency. I changed to the ruddercraft set up (I know some disagree with this) so the rudder could stay in place. I have a mast crutch, also stays in place. The main is rolled on the boom with reef lines, outhaul etc. in place. Jib sheets stay on the jibs. I hate the damn compression post but have learned to live with it and now sleep quite comfortably in the quarter berth. The boat will show you what it requires of you. Learn to listen. It is a heavy tow. But I leave nearly every other boat in my class in the dust as well as other, bigger boats. I'm not giving that up for convenience on the launch ramp. I always get comments about how pretty my boat is from strangers, that's not bad for the ego, either. Is there a better boat out there? Probably the Sage 17. Will I own one? Not in this lifetime. Thanks for a great boat Jerry. Get out and sail and QUIT COMPLAINING, Jon Barber Monty 17 Ol'44 On Wed, Aug 4, 2021, 11:40 AM <montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Send montgomery_boats mailing list submissions to montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com
You can reach the person managing the list at montgomery_boats-owner@mailman.xmission.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: M15 or M17 (Peter Zimowsky) 2. Re: M15 or M17 (Peter Zimowsky) 3. Re: Winches on my M17 (jerry montgomery)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 07:32:39 -0600 From: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17 To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Message-ID: <5B469FC9-15E8-430F-9D02-63AC26A9D7CC@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
John: Thanks for the insight. I’m just a cautious boater (whitewater and open water). Learn that from my dad crossing five miles across Barnegat Bay in Jersey. Remember bucking fierce afternoon storms that came up suddenly. We never had an issue. Getting older and more wary. Good winds,
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 9:32 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Another two cents...if you are cruising or on a mooring or in a slip for multiple days or weeks, an extra 20 or 30 minutes to rig up and down a 17 vs. 15 is not a big deal. But for day sailing, or less than a night or two out, for me at least, it's a deal breaker. I typically don't put in for less than 4-5 days of boat in water. That's what dinghies and other small light quick to rig day sailors are for... :-)
cheers, John
On 8/3/21 8:26 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not? Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional. Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier. My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-) cheers, John On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hi Dave: I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there?
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Peter:
Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable sailers & cruisers.
M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra room of a 17. Perplexed.
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 07:34:17 -0600 From: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17 To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Message-ID: <BFA5959D-EFC7-407B-ADA9-B8E23378DA40@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Yup. I sail once a week for a day at the local reservoir and it’s easy to rig ( 35 minutes). That’s the advantage of the 15.
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 9:32 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Another two cents...if you are cruising or on a mooring or in a slip for multiple days or weeks, an extra 20 or 30 minutes to rig up and down a 17 vs. 15 is not a big deal. But for day sailing, or less than a night or two out, for me at least, it's a deal breaker. I typically don't put in for less than 4-5 days of boat in water. That's what dinghies and other small light quick to rig day sailors are for... :-)
cheers, John
On 8/3/21 8:26 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not? Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional. Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier. My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-) cheers, John On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hi Dave: I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there?
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Peter:
Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable sailers & cruisers.
M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra room of a 17. Perplexed.
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 18:39:47 +0000 From: jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Winches on my M17 To: "montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Message-ID: <BYAPR19MB287288753448D9E5345928E8E6F19@BYAPR19MB2872.nam prd19.prod.outlook.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
The problem is caused by the coamings being so hi. The tilting was a suggestion of Lyle Hess aimed at being a compromise. A good crew learns to work things after wrapping a time or two. Not a big problem, but can be annoying. If I were doing it over, i'd use a 7/8 rig, like the Sage 17, which has the shrouds raked aft, allowing a larger working jib The lack of height of the fractional jib is compensated for by using a taller rig.. The Sage is more similar to the tall rig M-17 in terms of area and heeling moment, but is stiffer because of the carbon deck. The winches, as well as the jib fairlead cars, go on the cabintop. The 150 or larger sheets are still sheeted on the rail but by the time the sheets got up to the cabintop the angle is more easy to live with. Cabintop winches are faster and easier for the crew.
Lyle designed the rig for the m-17 from my sketches, so that's on me. In the early 70's masthead rigs were all the rage because of the IOR rule, which favored them; that's why I favored it.
Quit complaining!
jerry
________________________________ From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 8:29 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Winches on my M17
Yeah nobody actually said why are the winches canted. Jerry? Dave? Bob?
I don't know why for sure, but from the way the sheets run and the coaming sits etc. I have assumed it's for improving the direction and/or angle of the sheets vs. the winch. How the sheets run on and off the winch, etc. If they were flat on the coaming I think the angles would not be so good, regardless of where the blocks were. And probably they can't be perfect for every location of jib sheet blocks so in some cases the angle isn't so great...?
cheers John
: Winches on my M17
I have a M17 Hull #502 built in 1993. I sailed her for a number of
years and could never figure out why the winches are canted out. My wife and I barrel race on Barnegat Bay in NJ and have a difficult time trimming the
150 jib as the line is always crossed over. Any comments on crew positioning are welcome. Thanks
-- Best Regards,
Bob Goodyear rbgoodyear@gmail.com 732.684.1738 c
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________ montgomery_boats mailing list -- montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com To unsubscribe send an email to montgomery_boats-leave@mailman.xmission.com %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
------------------------------
End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 222, Issue 6 ************************************************
Thanks for the encouragement. Will be sailing the San Juans next week. Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky) San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 4, 2021, at 5:30 PM, Jon Barber <brbrbarber@gmail.com> wrote:
I can't speak to the sea keeping ability of the 15 as I have not sailed one. I know when it gets to blowing my 17 hunters down and does what it does best. Gets me back to the marina with little fuss. I seem to catch up to the speed demons when it pipes up as my boat surges on and their boats round up.
When it comes to rigging and un rigging times it all about efficiency. I changed to the ruddercraft set up (I know some disagree with this) so the rudder could stay in place. I have a mast crutch, also stays in place. The main is rolled on the boom with reef lines, outhaul etc. in place. Jib sheets stay on the jibs. I hate the damn compression post but have learned to live with it and now sleep quite comfortably in the quarter berth. The boat will show you what it requires of you. Learn to listen. It is a heavy tow. But I leave nearly every other boat in my class in the dust as well as other, bigger boats. I'm not giving that up for convenience on the launch ramp. I always get comments about how pretty my boat is from strangers, that's not bad for the ego, either. Is there a better boat out there? Probably the Sage 17. Will I own one? Not in this lifetime. Thanks for a great boat Jerry. Get out and sail and QUIT COMPLAINING,
Jon Barber Monty 17 Ol'44
On Wed, Aug 4, 2021, 11:40 AM <montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Send montgomery_boats mailing list submissions to montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com
You can reach the person managing the list at montgomery_boats-owner@mailman.xmission.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: M15 or M17 (Peter Zimowsky) 2. Re: M15 or M17 (Peter Zimowsky) 3. Re: Winches on my M17 (jerry montgomery)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 07:32:39 -0600 From: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17 To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Message-ID: <5B469FC9-15E8-430F-9D02-63AC26A9D7CC@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
John: Thanks for the insight. I’m just a cautious boater (whitewater and open water). Learn that from my dad crossing five miles across Barnegat Bay in Jersey. Remember bucking fierce afternoon storms that came up suddenly. We never had an issue. Getting older and more wary. Good winds,
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 9:32 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Another two cents...if you are cruising or on a mooring or in a slip for multiple days or weeks, an extra 20 or 30 minutes to rig up and down a 17 vs. 15 is not a big deal. But for day sailing, or less than a night or two out, for me at least, it's a deal breaker. I typically don't put in for less than 4-5 days of boat in water. That's what dinghies and other small light quick to rig day sailors are for... :-)
cheers, John
On 8/3/21 8:26 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not? Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional. Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier. My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-) cheers, John On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hi Dave: I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there?
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Peter:
Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable sailers & cruisers.
M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
> I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the > bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service > for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. > I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 > mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering > about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I > sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth > it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra > room of a 17. Perplexed. > > Pete WinterSky > (Zimowsky) > > San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush > > outdoors writer and photographer > Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky > Twitter: @zimosoutdoors > The Northwest Outdoors Journey: > https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ > > "We Can Not Control the Wind > But We Can Adjust Our Sails" >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 07:34:17 -0600 From: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17 To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Message-ID: <BFA5959D-EFC7-407B-ADA9-B8E23378DA40@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Yup. I sail once a week for a day at the local reservoir and it’s easy to rig ( 35 minutes). That’s the advantage of the 15.
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 9:32 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Another two cents...if you are cruising or on a mooring or in a slip for multiple days or weeks, an extra 20 or 30 minutes to rig up and down a 17 vs. 15 is not a big deal. But for day sailing, or less than a night or two out, for me at least, it's a deal breaker. I typically don't put in for less than 4-5 days of boat in water. That's what dinghies and other small light quick to rig day sailors are for... :-)
cheers, John
On 8/3/21 8:26 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not? Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional. Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier. My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-) cheers, John On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hi Dave: I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there?
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Peter:
Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable sailers & cruisers.
M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
> I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the > bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service > for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. > I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 > mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering > about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I > sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth > it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra > room of a 17. Perplexed. > > Pete WinterSky > (Zimowsky) > > San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush > > outdoors writer and photographer > Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky > Twitter: @zimosoutdoors > The Northwest Outdoors Journey: > https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ > > "We Can Not Control the Wind > But We Can Adjust Our Sails" >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 18:39:47 +0000 From: jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Winches on my M17 To: "montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Message-ID: <BYAPR19MB287288753448D9E5345928E8E6F19@BYAPR19MB2872.nam prd19.prod.outlook.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
The problem is caused by the coamings being so hi. The tilting was a suggestion of Lyle Hess aimed at being a compromise. A good crew learns to work things after wrapping a time or two. Not a big problem, but can be annoying. If I were doing it over, i'd use a 7/8 rig, like the Sage 17, which has the shrouds raked aft, allowing a larger working jib The lack of height of the fractional jib is compensated for by using a taller rig.. The Sage is more similar to the tall rig M-17 in terms of area and heeling moment, but is stiffer because of the carbon deck. The winches, as well as the jib fairlead cars, go on the cabintop. The 150 or larger sheets are still sheeted on the rail but by the time the sheets got up to the cabintop the angle is more easy to live with. Cabintop winches are faster and easier for the crew.
Lyle designed the rig for the m-17 from my sketches, so that's on me. In the early 70's masthead rigs were all the rage because of the IOR rule, which favored them; that's why I favored it.
Quit complaining!
jerry
________________________________ From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 8:29 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Winches on my M17
Yeah nobody actually said why are the winches canted. Jerry? Dave? Bob?
I don't know why for sure, but from the way the sheets run and the coaming sits etc. I have assumed it's for improving the direction and/or angle of the sheets vs. the winch. How the sheets run on and off the winch, etc. If they were flat on the coaming I think the angles would not be so good, regardless of where the blocks were. And probably they can't be perfect for every location of jib sheet blocks so in some cases the angle isn't so great...?
cheers John
: Winches on my M17
I have a M17 Hull #502 built in 1993. I sailed her for a number of
years and could never figure out why the winches are canted out. My wife and I barrel race on Barnegat Bay in NJ and have a difficult time trimming the
150 jib as the line is always crossed over. Any comments on crew positioning are welcome. Thanks
-- Best Regards,
Bob Goodyear rbgoodyear@gmail.com 732.684.1738 c
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________ montgomery_boats mailing list -- montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com To unsubscribe send an email to montgomery_boats-leave@mailman.xmission.com %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
------------------------------
End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 222, Issue 6 ************************************************
Pete, one thought, since you're nerves seem to focus on seaworthiness, I've found my new main with a second reef (I looked in photos and saw but you have but one) really helps settle things down when the wind blows like stink. Even just knowing you can still easily depower another chunk builds confidence when you don't have it in. Way better than trying to sail a 15 on jib alone in a blow (I only tried that once- the lack of decent steerage made it like trying to turn a tired horse away from the barn). Enjoy the San Juans and know that I look jealously at your posts of your winter sails up on Lucky Peak! Alex On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 6:21 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Thanks for the encouragement. Will be sailing the San Juans next week.
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 4, 2021, at 5:30 PM, Jon Barber <brbrbarber@gmail.com> wrote:
I can't speak to the sea keeping ability of the 15 as I have not sailed one. I know when it gets to blowing my 17 hunters down and does what it does best. Gets me back to the marina with little fuss. I seem to catch up to the speed demons when it pipes up as my boat surges on and their boats round up.
When it comes to rigging and un rigging times it all about efficiency. I changed to the ruddercraft set up (I know some disagree with this) so the rudder could stay in place. I have a mast crutch, also stays in place. The main is rolled on the boom with reef lines, outhaul etc. in place. Jib sheets stay on the jibs. I hate the damn compression post but have learned to live with it and now sleep quite comfortably in the quarter berth. The boat will show you what it requires of you. Learn to listen. It is a heavy tow. But I leave nearly every other boat in my class in the dust as well as other, bigger boats. I'm not giving that up for convenience on the launch ramp. I always get comments about how pretty my boat is from strangers, that's not bad for the ego, either. Is there a better boat out there? Probably the Sage 17. Will I own one? Not in this lifetime. Thanks for a great boat Jerry. Get out and sail and QUIT COMPLAINING,
Jon Barber Monty 17 Ol'44
On Wed, Aug 4, 2021, 11:40 AM < montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Send montgomery_boats mailing list submissions to montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com
You can reach the person managing the list at montgomery_boats-owner@mailman.xmission.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: M15 or M17 (Peter Zimowsky) 2. Re: M15 or M17 (Peter Zimowsky) 3. Re: Winches on my M17 (jerry montgomery)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 07:32:39 -0600 From: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17 To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Message-ID: <5B469FC9-15E8-430F-9D02-63AC26A9D7CC@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
John: Thanks for the insight. I’m just a cautious boater (whitewater and open water). Learn that from my dad crossing five miles across Barnegat Bay in Jersey. Remember bucking fierce afternoon storms that came up suddenly. We never had an issue. Getting older and more wary. Good winds,
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 9:32 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Another two cents...if you are cruising or on a mooring or in a slip for multiple days or weeks, an extra 20 or 30 minutes to rig up and down a 17 vs. 15 is not a big deal. But for day sailing, or less than a night or two out, for me at least, it's a deal breaker. I typically don't put in for less than 4-5 days of boat in water. That's what dinghies and other small light quick to rig day sailors are for... :-)
cheers, John
On 8/3/21 8:26 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not? Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional. Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier. My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-) cheers, John On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hi Dave: I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there?
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
> On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote: > > Peter: > > Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to > tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable > sailers & cruisers. > > M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom. > > > :: Dave Scobie > :: M6'8" #650 > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! > > > On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < > montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: > >> I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the >> bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service >> for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. >> I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 >> mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering >> about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I >> sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth >> it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra >> room of a 17. Perplexed. >> >> Pete WinterSky >> (Zimowsky) >> >> San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush >> >> outdoors writer and photographer >> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky >> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors >> The Northwest Outdoors Journey: >> https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ >> >> "We Can Not Control the Wind >> But We Can Adjust Our Sails" >>
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 07:34:17 -0600 From: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17 To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Message-ID: <BFA5959D-EFC7-407B-ADA9-B8E23378DA40@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Yup. I sail once a week for a day at the local reservoir and it’s easy to rig ( 35 minutes). That’s the advantage of the 15.
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 9:32 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Another two cents...if you are cruising or on a mooring or in a slip for multiple days or weeks, an extra 20 or 30 minutes to rig up and down a 17 vs. 15 is not a big deal. But for day sailing, or less than a night or two out, for me at least, it's a deal breaker. I typically don't put in for less than 4-5 days of boat in water. That's what dinghies and other small light quick to rig day sailors are for... :-)
cheers, John
On 8/3/21 8:26 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not? Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional. Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier. My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-) cheers, John On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hi Dave: I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there?
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
> On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote: > > Peter: > > Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to > tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable > sailers & cruisers. > > M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom. > > > :: Dave Scobie > :: M6'8" #650 > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! > > > On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < > montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: > >> I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the >> bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service >> for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. >> I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 >> mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering >> about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I >> sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth >> it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra >> room of a 17. Perplexed. >> >> Pete WinterSky >> (Zimowsky) >> >> San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush >> >> outdoors writer and photographer >> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky >> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors >> The Northwest Outdoors Journey: >> https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ >> >> "We Can Not Control the Wind >> But We Can Adjust Our Sails" >>
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 18:39:47 +0000 From: jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Winches on my M17 To: "montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Message-ID: <BYAPR19MB287288753448D9E5345928E8E6F19@BYAPR19MB2872.nam prd19.prod.outlook.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
The problem is caused by the coamings being so hi. The tilting was a suggestion of Lyle Hess aimed at being a compromise. A good crew learns to work things after wrapping a time or two. Not a big problem, but can be annoying. If I were doing it over, i'd use a 7/8 rig, like the Sage 17, which has the shrouds raked aft, allowing a larger working jib The lack of height of the fractional jib is compensated for by using a taller rig.. The Sage is more similar to the tall rig M-17 in terms of area and heeling moment, but is stiffer because of the carbon deck. The winches, as well as the jib fairlead cars, go on the cabintop. The 150 or larger sheets are still sheeted on the rail but by the time the sheets got up to the cabintop the angle is more easy to live with. Cabintop winches are faster and easier for the crew.
Lyle designed the rig for the m-17 from my sketches, so that's on me. In the early 70's masthead rigs were all the rage because of the IOR rule, which favored them; that's why I favored it.
Quit complaining!
jerry
________________________________ From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 8:29 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Winches on my M17
Yeah nobody actually said why are the winches canted. Jerry? Dave? Bob?
I don't know why for sure, but from the way the sheets run and the coaming sits etc. I have assumed it's for improving the direction and/or angle of the sheets vs. the winch. How the sheets run on and off the winch, etc. If they were flat on the coaming I think the angles would not be so good, regardless of where the blocks were. And probably they can't be perfect for every location of jib sheet blocks so in some cases the angle isn't so great...?
cheers John
: Winches on my M17
I have a M17 Hull #502 built in 1993. I sailed her for a number of
years and could never figure out why the winches are canted out. My wife and I barrel race on Barnegat Bay in NJ and have a difficult time trimming the
150 jib as the line is always crossed over. Any comments on crew positioning are welcome. Thanks
-- Best Regards,
Bob Goodyear rbgoodyear@gmail.com 732.684.1738 c
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________ montgomery_boats mailing list -- montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com To unsubscribe send an email to montgomery_boats-leave@mailman.xmission.com %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
------------------------------
End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 222, Issue 6 ************************************************
Hi Alex: It’s funny. But I have never reefed. Like you said, I have the capability for one reef but not two. I will look into it. I just have to trust my sailing ability. Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky) San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 4, 2021, at 7:36 PM, Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
Pete, one thought, since you're nerves seem to focus on seaworthiness, I've found my new main with a second reef (I looked in photos and saw but you have but one) really helps settle things down when the wind blows like stink. Even just knowing you can still easily depower another chunk builds confidence when you don't have it in. Way better than trying to sail a 15 on jib alone in a blow (I only tried that once- the lack of decent steerage made it like trying to turn a tired horse away from the barn). Enjoy the San Juans and know that I look jealously at your posts of your winter sails up on Lucky Peak!
Alex
On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 6:21 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Thanks for the encouragement. Will be sailing the San Juans next week.
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 4, 2021, at 5:30 PM, Jon Barber <brbrbarber@gmail.com> wrote:
I can't speak to the sea keeping ability of the 15 as I have not sailed one. I know when it gets to blowing my 17 hunters down and does what it does best. Gets me back to the marina with little fuss. I seem to catch up to the speed demons when it pipes up as my boat surges on and their boats round up.
When it comes to rigging and un rigging times it all about efficiency. I changed to the ruddercraft set up (I know some disagree with this) so the rudder could stay in place. I have a mast crutch, also stays in place. The main is rolled on the boom with reef lines, outhaul etc. in place. Jib sheets stay on the jibs. I hate the damn compression post but have learned to live with it and now sleep quite comfortably in the quarter berth. The boat will show you what it requires of you. Learn to listen. It is a heavy tow. But I leave nearly every other boat in my class in the dust as well as other, bigger boats. I'm not giving that up for convenience on the launch ramp. I always get comments about how pretty my boat is from strangers, that's not bad for the ego, either. Is there a better boat out there? Probably the Sage 17. Will I own one? Not in this lifetime. Thanks for a great boat Jerry. Get out and sail and QUIT COMPLAINING,
Jon Barber Monty 17 Ol'44
On Wed, Aug 4, 2021, 11:40 AM < montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Send montgomery_boats mailing list submissions to montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com
You can reach the person managing the list at montgomery_boats-owner@mailman.xmission.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: M15 or M17 (Peter Zimowsky) 2. Re: M15 or M17 (Peter Zimowsky) 3. Re: Winches on my M17 (jerry montgomery)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 07:32:39 -0600 From: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17 To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Message-ID: <5B469FC9-15E8-430F-9D02-63AC26A9D7CC@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
John: Thanks for the insight. I’m just a cautious boater (whitewater and open water). Learn that from my dad crossing five miles across Barnegat Bay in Jersey. Remember bucking fierce afternoon storms that came up suddenly. We never had an issue. Getting older and more wary. Good winds,
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 9:32 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Another two cents...if you are cruising or on a mooring or in a slip for multiple days or weeks, an extra 20 or 30 minutes to rig up and down a 17 vs. 15 is not a big deal. But for day sailing, or less than a night or two out, for me at least, it's a deal breaker. I typically don't put in for less than 4-5 days of boat in water. That's what dinghies and other small light quick to rig day sailors are for... :-)
cheers, John
On 8/3/21 8:26 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not? Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional. Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier. My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-) cheers, John On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote: > Hi Dave: > I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there? > > Pete WinterSky > (Zimowsky) > > San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush > > outdoors writer and photographer > Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky > Twitter: @zimosoutdoors > The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ > > "We Can Not Control the Wind > But We Can Adjust Our Sails" > >> On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Peter: >> >> Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to >> tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable >> sailers & cruisers. >> >> M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom. >> >> >> :: Dave Scobie >> :: M6'8" #650 >> :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com >> :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com >> :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < >> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: >> >>> I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the >>> bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service >>> for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. >>> I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 >>> mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering >>> about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I >>> sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth >>> it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra >>> room of a 17. Perplexed. >>> >>> Pete WinterSky >>> (Zimowsky) >>> >>> San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush >>> >>> outdoors writer and photographer >>> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky >>> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors >>> The Northwest Outdoors Journey: >>> https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ >>> >>> "We Can Not Control the Wind >>> But We Can Adjust Our Sails" >>> >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 07:34:17 -0600 From: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17 To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Message-ID: <BFA5959D-EFC7-407B-ADA9-B8E23378DA40@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Yup. I sail once a week for a day at the local reservoir and it’s easy to rig ( 35 minutes). That’s the advantage of the 15.
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 9:32 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Another two cents...if you are cruising or on a mooring or in a slip for multiple days or weeks, an extra 20 or 30 minutes to rig up and down a 17 vs. 15 is not a big deal. But for day sailing, or less than a night or two out, for me at least, it's a deal breaker. I typically don't put in for less than 4-5 days of boat in water. That's what dinghies and other small light quick to rig day sailors are for... :-)
cheers, John
On 8/3/21 8:26 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not? Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional. Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier. My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-) cheers, John On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote: > Hi Dave: > I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there? > > Pete WinterSky > (Zimowsky) > > San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush > > outdoors writer and photographer > Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky > Twitter: @zimosoutdoors > The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ > > "We Can Not Control the Wind > But We Can Adjust Our Sails" > >> On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Peter: >> >> Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to >> tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable >> sailers & cruisers. >> >> M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom. >> >> >> :: Dave Scobie >> :: M6'8" #650 >> :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com >> :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com >> :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < >> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: >> >>> I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the >>> bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service >>> for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. >>> I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 >>> mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering >>> about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I >>> sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth >>> it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra >>> room of a 17. Perplexed. >>> >>> Pete WinterSky >>> (Zimowsky) >>> >>> San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush >>> >>> outdoors writer and photographer >>> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky >>> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors >>> The Northwest Outdoors Journey: >>> https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ >>> >>> "We Can Not Control the Wind >>> But We Can Adjust Our Sails" >>> >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 18:39:47 +0000 From: jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Winches on my M17 To: "montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Message-ID: <BYAPR19MB287288753448D9E5345928E8E6F19@BYAPR19MB2872.nam prd19.prod.outlook.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
The problem is caused by the coamings being so hi. The tilting was a suggestion of Lyle Hess aimed at being a compromise. A good crew learns to work things after wrapping a time or two. Not a big problem, but can be annoying. If I were doing it over, i'd use a 7/8 rig, like the Sage 17, which has the shrouds raked aft, allowing a larger working jib The lack of height of the fractional jib is compensated for by using a taller rig.. The Sage is more similar to the tall rig M-17 in terms of area and heeling moment, but is stiffer because of the carbon deck. The winches, as well as the jib fairlead cars, go on the cabintop. The 150 or larger sheets are still sheeted on the rail but by the time the sheets got up to the cabintop the angle is more easy to live with. Cabintop winches are faster and easier for the crew.
Lyle designed the rig for the m-17 from my sketches, so that's on me. In the early 70's masthead rigs were all the rage because of the IOR rule, which favored them; that's why I favored it.
Quit complaining!
jerry
________________________________ From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 8:29 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Winches on my M17
Yeah nobody actually said why are the winches canted. Jerry? Dave? Bob?
I don't know why for sure, but from the way the sheets run and the coaming sits etc. I have assumed it's for improving the direction and/or angle of the sheets vs. the winch. How the sheets run on and off the winch, etc. If they were flat on the coaming I think the angles would not be so good, regardless of where the blocks were. And probably they can't be perfect for every location of jib sheet blocks so in some cases the angle isn't so great...?
cheers John
: Winches on my M17
> > I have a M17 Hull #502 built in 1993. I sailed her for a number of years and could never figure out why the winches are canted out. My wife and I barrel race on Barnegat Bay in NJ and have a difficult time trimming the > 150 jib as the line is always crossed over. Any comments on crew positioning are welcome. Thanks > > -- > Best Regards, > > Bob Goodyear > rbgoodyear@gmail.com > 732.684.1738 c
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________ montgomery_boats mailing list -- montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com To unsubscribe send an email to montgomery_boats-leave@mailman.xmission.com %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
------------------------------
End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 222, Issue 6 ************************************************
I shared this story long ago but here's the short version: Had never been on a Monty yet but wanted one. Got to go out with Daniel Rich on his M15 in Tomales bay years ago. It's a windy windy place in the summer. Sure enough wind picked up, and up, in the first hour or so. Time to head back to the launch ramp... We couldn't make headway tacking to windward (old soft sails, no backstay, rounding up in gusts, blowing 20+, 2 ft steep wind chop etc.). So we eventually had to drop sails and motor back upwind to the launch ramp. At no point in all of this, I realized afterwards, was I ever worried about the seaworthiness of the boat. Tacking and tacking and getting bounced around (but barely if at all wet, she's a dry boat). I might have worried about getting back where we started when Daniel said he hoped there was enough gas in the tank. But I figured we'd get somewhere else if necessary and the boat could handle it if we could. I ended up with an M17 and that suits me, it's my "big" little boat. I use it when I can "lake cruise" for days or have it in a slip for a while. Eventually I will get it up to Puget Sound and BC gulf islands etc. For day sails when "Pajarita" is not in the water or I want a simpler ride, I can take my El Toro most anywhere on my roof. Because maybe a friend or two wants to join me, or learn to sail themselves, I will probably build a slightly larger (than the El Toro), easy to transport rig and sail day sailor. Goat Island Skiff and Goose Explorer are my two top contenders at present. Anyhow...my one significant experience with the M15 seemed to indicate it's a very capable design in blustery conditions. Well done Jerry! I'm not complaining :-) cheers, John On 8/4/21 4:30 PM, Jon Barber wrote:
I can't speak to the sea keeping ability of the 15 as I have not sailed one. I know when it gets to blowing my 17 hunters down and does what it does best. Gets me back to the marina with little fuss. I seem to catch up to the speed demons when it pipes up as my boat surges on and their boats round up.
When it comes to rigging and un rigging times it all about efficiency. I changed to the ruddercraft set up (I know some disagree with this) so the rudder could stay in place. I have a mast crutch, also stays in place. The main is rolled on the boom with reef lines, outhaul etc. in place. Jib sheets stay on the jibs. I hate the damn compression post but have learned to live with it and now sleep quite comfortably in the quarter berth. The boat will show you what it requires of you. Learn to listen. It is a heavy tow. But I leave nearly every other boat in my class in the dust as well as other, bigger boats. I'm not giving that up for convenience on the launch ramp. I always get comments about how pretty my boat is from strangers, that's not bad for the ego, either. Is there a better boat out there? Probably the Sage 17. Will I own one? Not in this lifetime. Thanks for a great boat Jerry. Get out and sail and QUIT COMPLAINING,
Jon Barber Monty 17 Ol'44
On Wed, Aug 4, 2021, 11:40 AM <montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Send montgomery_boats mailing list submissions to montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com
You can reach the person managing the list at montgomery_boats-owner@mailman.xmission.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: M15 or M17 (Peter Zimowsky) 2. Re: M15 or M17 (Peter Zimowsky) 3. Re: Winches on my M17 (jerry montgomery)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 07:32:39 -0600 From: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17 To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Message-ID: <5B469FC9-15E8-430F-9D02-63AC26A9D7CC@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
John: Thanks for the insight. I’m just a cautious boater (whitewater and open water). Learn that from my dad crossing five miles across Barnegat Bay in Jersey. Remember bucking fierce afternoon storms that came up suddenly. We never had an issue. Getting older and more wary. Good winds,
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 9:32 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Another two cents...if you are cruising or on a mooring or in a slip for multiple days or weeks, an extra 20 or 30 minutes to rig up and down a 17 vs. 15 is not a big deal. But for day sailing, or less than a night or two out, for me at least, it's a deal breaker. I typically don't put in for less than 4-5 days of boat in water. That's what dinghies and other small light quick to rig day sailors are for... :-)
cheers, John
On 8/3/21 8:26 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not? Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional. Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier. My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-) cheers, John On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hi Dave: I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there?
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Peter:
Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable sailers & cruisers.
M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
> I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the > bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service > for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. > I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 > mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering > about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I > sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth > it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra > room of a 17. Perplexed. > > Pete WinterSky > (Zimowsky) > > San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush > > outdoors writer and photographer > Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky > Twitter: @zimosoutdoors > The Northwest Outdoors Journey: > https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ > > "We Can Not Control the Wind > But We Can Adjust Our Sails" >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 07:34:17 -0600 From: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17 To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Message-ID: <BFA5959D-EFC7-407B-ADA9-B8E23378DA40@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Yup. I sail once a week for a day at the local reservoir and it’s easy to rig ( 35 minutes). That’s the advantage of the 15.
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 9:32 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Another two cents...if you are cruising or on a mooring or in a slip for multiple days or weeks, an extra 20 or 30 minutes to rig up and down a 17 vs. 15 is not a big deal. But for day sailing, or less than a night or two out, for me at least, it's a deal breaker. I typically don't put in for less than 4-5 days of boat in water. That's what dinghies and other small light quick to rig day sailors are for... :-)
cheers, John
On 8/3/21 8:26 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not? Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional. Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier. My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-) cheers, John On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hi Dave: I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there?
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Peter:
Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable sailers & cruisers.
M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
> I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the > bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service > for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. > I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 > mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering > about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I > sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth > it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra > room of a 17. Perplexed. > > Pete WinterSky > (Zimowsky) > > San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush > > outdoors writer and photographer > Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky > Twitter: @zimosoutdoors > The Northwest Outdoors Journey: > https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ > > "We Can Not Control the Wind > But We Can Adjust Our Sails" >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 18:39:47 +0000 From: jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Winches on my M17 To: "montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Message-ID: <BYAPR19MB287288753448D9E5345928E8E6F19@BYAPR19MB2872.nam prd19.prod.outlook.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
The problem is caused by the coamings being so hi. The tilting was a suggestion of Lyle Hess aimed at being a compromise. A good crew learns to work things after wrapping a time or two. Not a big problem, but can be annoying. If I were doing it over, i'd use a 7/8 rig, like the Sage 17, which has the shrouds raked aft, allowing a larger working jib The lack of height of the fractional jib is compensated for by using a taller rig.. The Sage is more similar to the tall rig M-17 in terms of area and heeling moment, but is stiffer because of the carbon deck. The winches, as well as the jib fairlead cars, go on the cabintop. The 150 or larger sheets are still sheeted on the rail but by the time the sheets got up to the cabintop the angle is more easy to live with. Cabintop winches are faster and easier for the crew.
Lyle designed the rig for the m-17 from my sketches, so that's on me. In the early 70's masthead rigs were all the rage because of the IOR rule, which favored them; that's why I favored it.
Quit complaining!
jerry
________________________________ From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 8:29 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Winches on my M17
Yeah nobody actually said why are the winches canted. Jerry? Dave? Bob?
I don't know why for sure, but from the way the sheets run and the coaming sits etc. I have assumed it's for improving the direction and/or angle of the sheets vs. the winch. How the sheets run on and off the winch, etc. If they were flat on the coaming I think the angles would not be so good, regardless of where the blocks were. And probably they can't be perfect for every location of jib sheet blocks so in some cases the angle isn't so great...?
cheers John
: Winches on my M17
I have a M17 Hull #502 built in 1993. I sailed her for a number of
years and could never figure out why the winches are canted out. My wife and I barrel race on Barnegat Bay in NJ and have a difficult time trimming the
150 jib as the line is always crossed over. Any comments on crew positioning are welcome. Thanks
-- Best Regards,
Bob Goodyear rbgoodyear@gmail.com 732.684.1738 c
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________ montgomery_boats mailing list -- montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com To unsubscribe send an email to montgomery_boats-leave@mailman.xmission.com %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
------------------------------
End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 222, Issue 6 ************************************************
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Thanks again for the experiences with a M15 Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky) San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 4, 2021, at 8:02 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I shared this story long ago but here's the short version:
Had never been on a Monty yet but wanted one. Got to go out with Daniel Rich on his M15 in Tomales bay years ago. It's a windy windy place in the summer. Sure enough wind picked up, and up, in the first hour or so. Time to head back to the launch ramp... We couldn't make headway tacking to windward (old soft sails, no backstay, rounding up in gusts, blowing 20+, 2 ft steep wind chop etc.). So we eventually had to drop sails and motor back upwind to the launch ramp.
At no point in all of this, I realized afterwards, was I ever worried about the seaworthiness of the boat. Tacking and tacking and getting bounced around (but barely if at all wet, she's a dry boat). I might have worried about getting back where we started when Daniel said he hoped there was enough gas in the tank. But I figured we'd get somewhere else if necessary and the boat could handle it if we could.
I ended up with an M17 and that suits me, it's my "big" little boat. I use it when I can "lake cruise" for days or have it in a slip for a while. Eventually I will get it up to Puget Sound and BC gulf islands etc.
For day sails when "Pajarita" is not in the water or I want a simpler ride, I can take my El Toro most anywhere on my roof. Because maybe a friend or two wants to join me, or learn to sail themselves, I will probably build a slightly larger (than the El Toro), easy to transport rig and sail day sailor. Goat Island Skiff and Goose Explorer are my two top contenders at present.
Anyhow...my one significant experience with the M15 seemed to indicate it's a very capable design in blustery conditions. Well done Jerry! I'm not complaining :-)
cheers, John
On 8/4/21 4:30 PM, Jon Barber wrote:
I can't speak to the sea keeping ability of the 15 as I have not sailed one. I know when it gets to blowing my 17 hunters down and does what it does best. Gets me back to the marina with little fuss. I seem to catch up to the speed demons when it pipes up as my boat surges on and their boats round up. When it comes to rigging and un rigging times it all about efficiency. I changed to the ruddercraft set up (I know some disagree with this) so the rudder could stay in place. I have a mast crutch, also stays in place. The main is rolled on the boom with reef lines, outhaul etc. in place. Jib sheets stay on the jibs. I hate the damn compression post but have learned to live with it and now sleep quite comfortably in the quarter berth. The boat will show you what it requires of you. Learn to listen. It is a heavy tow. But I leave nearly every other boat in my class in the dust as well as other, bigger boats. I'm not giving that up for convenience on the launch ramp. I always get comments about how pretty my boat is from strangers, that's not bad for the ego, either. Is there a better boat out there? Probably the Sage 17. Will I own one? Not in this lifetime. Thanks for a great boat Jerry. Get out and sail and QUIT COMPLAINING, Jon Barber Monty 17 Ol'44 On Wed, Aug 4, 2021, 11:40 AM <montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Send montgomery_boats mailing list submissions to montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com
You can reach the person managing the list at montgomery_boats-owner@mailman.xmission.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: M15 or M17 (Peter Zimowsky) 2. Re: M15 or M17 (Peter Zimowsky) 3. Re: Winches on my M17 (jerry montgomery)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 07:32:39 -0600 From: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17 To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Message-ID: <5B469FC9-15E8-430F-9D02-63AC26A9D7CC@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
John: Thanks for the insight. I’m just a cautious boater (whitewater and open water). Learn that from my dad crossing five miles across Barnegat Bay in Jersey. Remember bucking fierce afternoon storms that came up suddenly. We never had an issue. Getting older and more wary. Good winds,
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 9:32 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Another two cents...if you are cruising or on a mooring or in a slip for multiple days or weeks, an extra 20 or 30 minutes to rig up and down a 17 vs. 15 is not a big deal. But for day sailing, or less than a night or two out, for me at least, it's a deal breaker. I typically don't put in for less than 4-5 days of boat in water. That's what dinghies and other small light quick to rig day sailors are for... :-)
cheers, John
On 8/3/21 8:26 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not? Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional. Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier. My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-) cheers, John On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hi Dave: I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there?
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
> On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote: > > Peter: > > Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to > tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable > sailers & cruisers. > > M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom. > > > :: Dave Scobie > :: M6'8" #650 > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! > > > On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < > montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: > >> I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the >> bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service >> for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. >> I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 >> mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering >> about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I >> sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth >> it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra >> room of a 17. Perplexed. >> >> Pete WinterSky >> (Zimowsky) >> >> San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush >> >> outdoors writer and photographer >> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky >> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors >> The Northwest Outdoors Journey: >> https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ >> >> "We Can Not Control the Wind >> But We Can Adjust Our Sails" >>
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 07:34:17 -0600 From: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17 To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Message-ID: <BFA5959D-EFC7-407B-ADA9-B8E23378DA40@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Yup. I sail once a week for a day at the local reservoir and it’s easy to rig ( 35 minutes). That’s the advantage of the 15.
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 9:32 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Another two cents...if you are cruising or on a mooring or in a slip for multiple days or weeks, an extra 20 or 30 minutes to rig up and down a 17 vs. 15 is not a big deal. But for day sailing, or less than a night or two out, for me at least, it's a deal breaker. I typically don't put in for less than 4-5 days of boat in water. That's what dinghies and other small light quick to rig day sailors are for... :-)
cheers, John
On 8/3/21 8:26 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not? Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional. Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier. My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-) cheers, John On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hi Dave: I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there?
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
> On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote: > > Peter: > > Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to > tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable > sailers & cruisers. > > M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom. > > > :: Dave Scobie > :: M6'8" #650 > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! > > > On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < > montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: > >> I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the >> bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service >> for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. >> I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 >> mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering >> about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I >> sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth >> it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra >> room of a 17. Perplexed. >> >> Pete WinterSky >> (Zimowsky) >> >> San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush >> >> outdoors writer and photographer >> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky >> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors >> The Northwest Outdoors Journey: >> https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ >> >> "We Can Not Control the Wind >> But We Can Adjust Our Sails" >>
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 18:39:47 +0000 From: jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Winches on my M17 To: "montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Message-ID: <BYAPR19MB287288753448D9E5345928E8E6F19@BYAPR19MB2872.nam prd19.prod.outlook.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
The problem is caused by the coamings being so hi. The tilting was a suggestion of Lyle Hess aimed at being a compromise. A good crew learns to work things after wrapping a time or two. Not a big problem, but can be annoying. If I were doing it over, i'd use a 7/8 rig, like the Sage 17, which has the shrouds raked aft, allowing a larger working jib The lack of height of the fractional jib is compensated for by using a taller rig.. The Sage is more similar to the tall rig M-17 in terms of area and heeling moment, but is stiffer because of the carbon deck. The winches, as well as the jib fairlead cars, go on the cabintop. The 150 or larger sheets are still sheeted on the rail but by the time the sheets got up to the cabintop the angle is more easy to live with. Cabintop winches are faster and easier for the crew.
Lyle designed the rig for the m-17 from my sketches, so that's on me. In the early 70's masthead rigs were all the rage because of the IOR rule, which favored them; that's why I favored it.
Quit complaining!
jerry
________________________________ From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 8:29 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Winches on my M17
Yeah nobody actually said why are the winches canted. Jerry? Dave? Bob?
I don't know why for sure, but from the way the sheets run and the coaming sits etc. I have assumed it's for improving the direction and/or angle of the sheets vs. the winch. How the sheets run on and off the winch, etc. If they were flat on the coaming I think the angles would not be so good, regardless of where the blocks were. And probably they can't be perfect for every location of jib sheet blocks so in some cases the angle isn't so great...?
cheers John
: Winches on my M17
I have a M17 Hull #502 built in 1993. I sailed her for a number of
years and could never figure out why the winches are canted out. My wife and I barrel race on Barnegat Bay in NJ and have a difficult time trimming the
150 jib as the line is always crossed over. Any comments on crew positioning are welcome. Thanks
-- Best Regards,
Bob Goodyear rbgoodyear@gmail.com 732.684.1738 c
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________ montgomery_boats mailing list -- montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com To unsubscribe send an email to montgomery_boats-leave@mailman.xmission.com %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
------------------------------
End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 222, Issue 6 ************************************************
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
In the "for what it's worth" category.... when I was leading the San Juan Island Montgomery Rendezvous, we had several M15's join in, along with many M17's and I think probably half the M23's ever made join us at some point. The 15's never had any problems handling the conditions we met. They did tend to fall behind on the longer days. Maybe because they were more overloaded for the two week cruises. The interesting thing I noticed though, was that almost without exception, every M15 sailor had a bigger boat next time they came back on another cruise. Usually a 17, but sometimes a different make altogether. The one exception being a gentleman in his 80's and the 15 was definitely his last boat. In my opinion, the 15 feels like a much smaller boat when sailing than the 17. Larry Yake M17 #200 CornDog On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 7:09 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Thanks again for the experiences with a M15 Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 4, 2021, at 8:02 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I shared this story long ago but here's the short version:
Had never been on a Monty yet but wanted one. Got to go out with Daniel Rich on his M15 in Tomales bay years ago. It's a windy windy place in the summer. Sure enough wind picked up, and up, in the first hour or so. Time to head back to the launch ramp... We couldn't make headway tacking to windward (old soft sails, no backstay, rounding up in gusts, blowing 20+, 2 ft steep wind chop etc.). So we eventually had to drop sails and motor back upwind to the launch ramp.
At no point in all of this, I realized afterwards, was I ever worried about the seaworthiness of the boat. Tacking and tacking and getting bounced around (but barely if at all wet, she's a dry boat). I might have worried about getting back where we started when Daniel said he hoped there was enough gas in the tank. But I figured we'd get somewhere else if necessary and the boat could handle it if we could.
I ended up with an M17 and that suits me, it's my "big" little boat. I use it when I can "lake cruise" for days or have it in a slip for a while. Eventually I will get it up to Puget Sound and BC gulf islands etc.
For day sails when "Pajarita" is not in the water or I want a simpler ride, I can take my El Toro most anywhere on my roof. Because maybe a friend or two wants to join me, or learn to sail themselves, I will probably build a slightly larger (than the El Toro), easy to transport rig and sail day sailor. Goat Island Skiff and Goose Explorer are my two top contenders at present.
Anyhow...my one significant experience with the M15 seemed to indicate it's a very capable design in blustery conditions. Well done Jerry! I'm not complaining :-)
cheers, John
On 8/4/21 4:30 PM, Jon Barber wrote:
I can't speak to the sea keeping ability of the 15 as I have not sailed one. I know when it gets to blowing my 17 hunters down and does what it does best. Gets me back to the marina with little fuss. I seem to catch up to the speed demons when it pipes up as my boat surges on and their boats round up. When it comes to rigging and un rigging times it all about efficiency. I changed to the ruddercraft set up (I know some disagree with this) so the rudder could stay in place. I have a mast crutch, also stays in place. The main is rolled on the boom with reef lines, outhaul etc. in place. Jib sheets stay on the jibs. I hate the damn compression post but have learned to live with it and now sleep quite comfortably in the quarter berth. The boat will show you what it requires of you. Learn to listen. It is a heavy tow. But I leave nearly every other boat in my class in the dust as well as other, bigger boats. I'm not giving that up for convenience on the launch ramp. I always get comments about how pretty my boat is from strangers, that's not bad for the ego, either. Is there a better boat out there? Probably the Sage 17. Will I own one? Not in this lifetime. Thanks for a great boat Jerry. Get out and sail and QUIT COMPLAINING, Jon Barber Monty 17 Ol'44 On Wed, Aug 4, 2021, 11:40 AM < montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Send montgomery_boats mailing list submissions to montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com
You can reach the person managing the list at montgomery_boats-owner@mailman.xmission.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: M15 or M17 (Peter Zimowsky) 2. Re: M15 or M17 (Peter Zimowsky) 3. Re: Winches on my M17 (jerry montgomery)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 07:32:39 -0600 From: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17 To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Message-ID: <5B469FC9-15E8-430F-9D02-63AC26A9D7CC@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
John: Thanks for the insight. I’m just a cautious boater (whitewater and open water). Learn that from my dad crossing five miles across Barnegat Bay in Jersey. Remember bucking fierce afternoon storms that came up suddenly. We never had an issue. Getting older and more wary. Good winds,
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 9:32 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Another two cents...if you are cruising or on a mooring or in a slip for multiple days or weeks, an extra 20 or 30 minutes to rig up and down a 17 vs. 15 is not a big deal. But for day sailing, or less than a night or two out, for me at least, it's a deal breaker. I typically don't put in for less than 4-5 days of boat in water. That's what dinghies and other small light quick to rig day sailors are for... :-)
cheers, John
On 8/3/21 8:26 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not? Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional. Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier. My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-) cheers, John On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote: > Hi Dave: > I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there? > > Pete WinterSky > (Zimowsky) > > San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush > > outdoors writer and photographer > Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky > Twitter: @zimosoutdoors > The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ > > "We Can Not Control the Wind > But We Can Adjust Our Sails" > >> On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Peter: >> >> Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to >> tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable >> sailers & cruisers. >> >> M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom. >> >> >> :: Dave Scobie >> :: M6'8" #650 >> :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com >> :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com >> :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < >> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: >> >>> I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the >>> bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service >>> for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. >>> I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 >>> mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering >>> about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I >>> sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth >>> it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra >>> room of a 17. Perplexed. >>> >>> Pete WinterSky >>> (Zimowsky) >>> >>> San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush >>> >>> outdoors writer and photographer >>> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky >>> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors >>> The Northwest Outdoors Journey: >>> https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ >>> >>> "We Can Not Control the Wind >>> But We Can Adjust Our Sails" >>> >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 07:34:17 -0600 From: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17 To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Message-ID: <BFA5959D-EFC7-407B-ADA9-B8E23378DA40@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Yup. I sail once a week for a day at the local reservoir and it’s easy to rig ( 35 minutes). That’s the advantage of the 15.
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 9:32 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Another two cents...if you are cruising or on a mooring or in a slip for multiple days or weeks, an extra 20 or 30 minutes to rig up and down a 17 vs. 15 is not a big deal. But for day sailing, or less than a night or two out, for me at least, it's a deal breaker. I typically don't put in for less than 4-5 days of boat in water. That's what dinghies and other small light quick to rig day sailors are for... :-)
cheers, John
On 8/3/21 8:26 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not? Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional. Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier. My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-) cheers, John On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote: > Hi Dave: > I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there? > > Pete WinterSky > (Zimowsky) > > San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush > > outdoors writer and photographer > Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky > Twitter: @zimosoutdoors > The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ > > "We Can Not Control the Wind > But We Can Adjust Our Sails" > >> On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Peter: >> >> Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to >> tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable >> sailers & cruisers. >> >> M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom. >> >> >> :: Dave Scobie >> :: M6'8" #650 >> :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com >> :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com >> :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < >> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: >> >>> I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the >>> bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service >>> for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. >>> I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 >>> mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering >>> about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I >>> sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth >>> it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra >>> room of a 17. Perplexed. >>> >>> Pete WinterSky >>> (Zimowsky) >>> >>> San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush >>> >>> outdoors writer and photographer >>> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky >>> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors >>> The Northwest Outdoors Journey: >>> https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ >>> >>> "We Can Not Control the Wind >>> But We Can Adjust Our Sails" >>> >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 18:39:47 +0000 From: jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Winches on my M17 To: "montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Message-ID: <BYAPR19MB287288753448D9E5345928E8E6F19@BYAPR19MB2872.nam prd19.prod.outlook.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
The problem is caused by the coamings being so hi. The tilting was a suggestion of Lyle Hess aimed at being a compromise. A good crew learns to work things after wrapping a time or two. Not a big problem, but can be annoying. If I were doing it over, i'd use a 7/8 rig, like the Sage 17, which has the shrouds raked aft, allowing a larger working jib The lack of height of the fractional jib is compensated for by using a taller rig.. The Sage is more similar to the tall rig M-17 in terms of area and heeling moment, but is stiffer because of the carbon deck. The winches, as well as the jib fairlead cars, go on the cabintop. The 150 or larger sheets are still sheeted on the rail but by the time the sheets got up to the cabintop the angle is more easy to live with. Cabintop winches are faster and easier for the crew.
Lyle designed the rig for the m-17 from my sketches, so that's on me. In the early 70's masthead rigs were all the rage because of the IOR rule, which favored them; that's why I favored it.
Quit complaining!
jerry
________________________________ From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 8:29 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Winches on my M17
Yeah nobody actually said why are the winches canted. Jerry? Dave? Bob?
I don't know why for sure, but from the way the sheets run and the coaming sits etc. I have assumed it's for improving the direction and/or angle of the sheets vs. the winch. How the sheets run on and off the winch, etc. If they were flat on the coaming I think the angles would not be so good, regardless of where the blocks were. And probably they can't be perfect for every location of jib sheet blocks so in some cases the angle isn't so great...?
cheers John
: Winches on my M17
> > I have a M17 Hull #502 built in 1993. I sailed her for a number of years and could never figure out why the winches are canted out. My wife and I barrel race on Barnegat Bay in NJ and have a difficult time trimming the > 150 jib as the line is always crossed over. Any comments on crew positioning are welcome. Thanks > > -- > Best Regards, > > Bob Goodyear > rbgoodyear@gmail.com > 732.684.1738 c
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________ montgomery_boats mailing list -- montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com To unsubscribe send an email to montgomery_boats-leave@mailman.xmission.com %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
------------------------------
End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 222, Issue 6 ************************************************
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Thanks Larry. I think it’s true that 15s might lag behind. I found that out when crossing from Pender to Roche on summer. I was in back of the pack of larger sailboats. But I made it. Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky) San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 4, 2021, at 9:44 PM, Larry Yake <larryyake@gmail.com> wrote:
In the "for what it's worth" category.... when I was leading the San Juan Island Montgomery Rendezvous, we had several M15's join in, along with many M17's and I think probably half the M23's ever made join us at some point. The 15's never had any problems handling the conditions we met. They did tend to fall behind on the longer days. Maybe because they were more overloaded for the two week cruises. The interesting thing I noticed though, was that almost without exception, every M15 sailor had a bigger boat next time they came back on another cruise. Usually a 17, but sometimes a different make altogether. The one exception being a gentleman in his 80's and the 15 was definitely his last boat. In my opinion, the 15 feels like a much smaller boat when sailing than the 17. Larry Yake M17 #200 CornDog
On Wed, Aug 4, 2021 at 7:09 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Thanks again for the experiences with a M15 Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 4, 2021, at 8:02 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I shared this story long ago but here's the short version:
Had never been on a Monty yet but wanted one. Got to go out with Daniel Rich on his M15 in Tomales bay years ago. It's a windy windy place in the summer. Sure enough wind picked up, and up, in the first hour or so. Time to head back to the launch ramp... We couldn't make headway tacking to windward (old soft sails, no backstay, rounding up in gusts, blowing 20+, 2 ft steep wind chop etc.). So we eventually had to drop sails and motor back upwind to the launch ramp.
At no point in all of this, I realized afterwards, was I ever worried about the seaworthiness of the boat. Tacking and tacking and getting bounced around (but barely if at all wet, she's a dry boat). I might have worried about getting back where we started when Daniel said he hoped there was enough gas in the tank. But I figured we'd get somewhere else if necessary and the boat could handle it if we could.
I ended up with an M17 and that suits me, it's my "big" little boat. I use it when I can "lake cruise" for days or have it in a slip for a while. Eventually I will get it up to Puget Sound and BC gulf islands etc.
For day sails when "Pajarita" is not in the water or I want a simpler ride, I can take my El Toro most anywhere on my roof. Because maybe a friend or two wants to join me, or learn to sail themselves, I will probably build a slightly larger (than the El Toro), easy to transport rig and sail day sailor. Goat Island Skiff and Goose Explorer are my two top contenders at present.
Anyhow...my one significant experience with the M15 seemed to indicate it's a very capable design in blustery conditions. Well done Jerry! I'm not complaining :-)
cheers, John
On 8/4/21 4:30 PM, Jon Barber wrote:
I can't speak to the sea keeping ability of the 15 as I have not sailed one. I know when it gets to blowing my 17 hunters down and does what it does best. Gets me back to the marina with little fuss. I seem to catch up to the speed demons when it pipes up as my boat surges on and their boats round up. When it comes to rigging and un rigging times it all about efficiency. I changed to the ruddercraft set up (I know some disagree with this) so the rudder could stay in place. I have a mast crutch, also stays in place. The main is rolled on the boom with reef lines, outhaul etc. in place. Jib sheets stay on the jibs. I hate the damn compression post but have learned to live with it and now sleep quite comfortably in the quarter berth. The boat will show you what it requires of you. Learn to listen. It is a heavy tow. But I leave nearly every other boat in my class in the dust as well as other, bigger boats. I'm not giving that up for convenience on the launch ramp. I always get comments about how pretty my boat is from strangers, that's not bad for the ego, either. Is there a better boat out there? Probably the Sage 17. Will I own one? Not in this lifetime. Thanks for a great boat Jerry. Get out and sail and QUIT COMPLAINING, Jon Barber Monty 17 Ol'44 On Wed, Aug 4, 2021, 11:40 AM < montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Send montgomery_boats mailing list submissions to montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com
You can reach the person managing the list at montgomery_boats-owner@mailman.xmission.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: M15 or M17 (Peter Zimowsky) 2. Re: M15 or M17 (Peter Zimowsky) 3. Re: Winches on my M17 (jerry montgomery)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 07:32:39 -0600 From: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17 To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Message-ID: <5B469FC9-15E8-430F-9D02-63AC26A9D7CC@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
John: Thanks for the insight. I’m just a cautious boater (whitewater and open water). Learn that from my dad crossing five miles across Barnegat Bay in Jersey. Remember bucking fierce afternoon storms that came up suddenly. We never had an issue. Getting older and more wary. Good winds,
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 9:32 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Another two cents...if you are cruising or on a mooring or in a slip for multiple days or weeks, an extra 20 or 30 minutes to rig up and down a 17 vs. 15 is not a big deal. But for day sailing, or less than a night or two out, for me at least, it's a deal breaker. I typically don't put in for less than 4-5 days of boat in water. That's what dinghies and other small light quick to rig day sailors are for... :-)
cheers, John
On 8/3/21 8:26 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote: > If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not? > Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. > Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional. > Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier. > My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-) > cheers, > John > On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote: >> Hi Dave: >> I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there? >> >> Pete WinterSky >> (Zimowsky) >> >> San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush >> >> outdoors writer and photographer >> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky >> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors >> The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ >> >> "We Can Not Control the Wind >> But We Can Adjust Our Sails" >> >>> On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Peter: >>> >>> Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to >>> tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable >>> sailers & cruisers. >>> >>> M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom. >>> >>> >>> :: Dave Scobie >>> :: M6'8" #650 >>> :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com >>> :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com >>> :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < >>> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the >>>> bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service >>>> for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. >>>> I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 >>>> mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering >>>> about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I >>>> sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth >>>> it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra >>>> room of a 17. Perplexed. >>>> >>>> Pete WinterSky >>>> (Zimowsky) >>>> >>>> San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush >>>> >>>> outdoors writer and photographer >>>> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky >>>> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors >>>> The Northwest Outdoors Journey: >>>> https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ >>>> >>>> "We Can Not Control the Wind >>>> But We Can Adjust Our Sails" >>>> >>
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 07:34:17 -0600 From: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17 To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Message-ID: <BFA5959D-EFC7-407B-ADA9-B8E23378DA40@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Yup. I sail once a week for a day at the local reservoir and it’s easy to rig ( 35 minutes). That’s the advantage of the 15.
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 9:32 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Another two cents...if you are cruising or on a mooring or in a slip for multiple days or weeks, an extra 20 or 30 minutes to rig up and down a 17 vs. 15 is not a big deal. But for day sailing, or less than a night or two out, for me at least, it's a deal breaker. I typically don't put in for less than 4-5 days of boat in water. That's what dinghies and other small light quick to rig day sailors are for... :-)
cheers, John
On 8/3/21 8:26 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote: > If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not? > Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. > Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional. > Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier. > My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-) > cheers, > John > On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote: >> Hi Dave: >> I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there? >> >> Pete WinterSky >> (Zimowsky) >> >> San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush >> >> outdoors writer and photographer >> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky >> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors >> The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ >> >> "We Can Not Control the Wind >> But We Can Adjust Our Sails" >> >>> On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Peter: >>> >>> Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to >>> tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable >>> sailers & cruisers. >>> >>> M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom. >>> >>> >>> :: Dave Scobie >>> :: M6'8" #650 >>> :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com >>> :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com >>> :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < >>> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the >>>> bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service >>>> for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. >>>> I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 >>>> mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering >>>> about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I >>>> sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth >>>> it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra >>>> room of a 17. Perplexed. >>>> >>>> Pete WinterSky >>>> (Zimowsky) >>>> >>>> San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush >>>> >>>> outdoors writer and photographer >>>> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky >>>> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors >>>> The Northwest Outdoors Journey: >>>> https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ >>>> >>>> "We Can Not Control the Wind >>>> But We Can Adjust Our Sails" >>>> >>
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 18:39:47 +0000 From: jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Winches on my M17 To: "montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Message-ID: <BYAPR19MB287288753448D9E5345928E8E6F19@BYAPR19MB2872.nam prd19.prod.outlook.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
The problem is caused by the coamings being so hi. The tilting was a suggestion of Lyle Hess aimed at being a compromise. A good crew learns to work things after wrapping a time or two. Not a big problem, but can be annoying. If I were doing it over, i'd use a 7/8 rig, like the Sage 17, which has the shrouds raked aft, allowing a larger working jib The lack of height of the fractional jib is compensated for by using a taller rig.. The Sage is more similar to the tall rig M-17 in terms of area and heeling moment, but is stiffer because of the carbon deck. The winches, as well as the jib fairlead cars, go on the cabintop. The 150 or larger sheets are still sheeted on the rail but by the time the sheets got up to the cabintop the angle is more easy to live with. Cabintop winches are faster and easier for the crew.
Lyle designed the rig for the m-17 from my sketches, so that's on me. In the early 70's masthead rigs were all the rage because of the IOR rule, which favored them; that's why I favored it.
Quit complaining!
jerry
________________________________ From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 8:29 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Winches on my M17
Yeah nobody actually said why are the winches canted. Jerry? Dave? Bob?
I don't know why for sure, but from the way the sheets run and the coaming sits etc. I have assumed it's for improving the direction and/or angle of the sheets vs. the winch. How the sheets run on and off the winch, etc. If they were flat on the coaming I think the angles would not be so good, regardless of where the blocks were. And probably they can't be perfect for every location of jib sheet blocks so in some cases the angle isn't so great...?
cheers John
: Winches on my M17
>> >> I have a M17 Hull #502 built in 1993. I sailed her for a number of years and could never figure out why the winches are canted out. My wife and I barrel race on Barnegat Bay in NJ and have a difficult time trimming the >> 150 jib as the line is always crossed over. Any comments on crew positioning are welcome. Thanks >> >> -- >> Best Regards, >> >> Bob Goodyear >> rbgoodyear@gmail.com >> 732.684.1738 c
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________ montgomery_boats mailing list -- montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com To unsubscribe send an email to montgomery_boats-leave@mailman.xmission.com %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
------------------------------
End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 222, Issue 6 ************************************************
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
15 vs 17 Both boats are quality designs and excellently constructed. The M15 is at it's best in light winds and no waves. Under those conditions it can keep up with the M17 and in real light winds can past it. Once the winds pick up past 2-3 kts, the longer waterlength and more sail area favor the m17. I have never sailed a m15 but I have gone on many cruises with a flotilla of 15s and 17s as well as a occasional catboat and motor boat and have seen all of them in everything from a dead calm to winds gusting to about 20 knots and waves. I have a large variety of sails for my M17 "Miss T" from a 155 to a VERY tiny storm jib and at one time used all of them (except the tiny storm jib) .I have a double reef in the main. In an honest 25+ mp winds and surrounded by whitecaps and waves Miss T has gone to windward with a double reef in the main and the larger" storm jib. without any fuss but you have to be very alert in those conditions. In very strong winds Miss T wants to round up hard. This could be adjusted with reduction of the main sail (3d reef) but I want to know that she will round up if for some reason I let go of the tiller. Cruising.... the M17 has an amazing storage capacity and have spent a week at times without stopping for supplies. The V berth is where the kayak is stored when not in use (deflated) The other half of the Vberth is left open. I've never provisioned an M15 for a cruise so maybe some M15 owners will share their experiences. There are 2 definite advantages for the M15. 1. The M15 is easier to rig. It always seems when I get to the launching area I am anxious to get under way and the M15 doesn't take as long to get the rig ready as the M17. With good organization and frequent use the difference isn't much more than a couple of minutes at longest. Loading supplies takes longer than rigging either boat. 2. The M15 is beachable. It is an advantage if you like to go onshore for a hike, beach party etc. or just want to take walk and stretch your legs. But I have NEVER missed a beach party though I have waded ashore and sometimes used the inflatable canoe. Hope that helps some. But you can't go wrong with either boat if you know what kind of sailing you want to do. John EdwardsMiss T M17 # 372 -----Original Message----- From: Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net>; Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Sent: Wed, Aug 4, 2021 10:08 pm Subject: M_Boats: Re: 15 v 17 Thanks again for the experiences with a M15 Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky) San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 4, 2021, at 8:02 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I shared this story long ago but here's the short version:
Had never been on a Monty yet but wanted one. Got to go out with Daniel Rich on his M15 in Tomales bay years ago. It's a windy windy place in the summer. Sure enough wind picked up, and up, in the first hour or so. Time to head back to the launch ramp... We couldn't make headway tacking to windward (old soft sails, no backstay, rounding up in gusts, blowing 20+, 2 ft steep wind chop etc.). So we eventually had to drop sails and motor back upwind to the launch ramp.
At no point in all of this, I realized afterwards, was I ever worried about the seaworthiness of the boat. Tacking and tacking and getting bounced around (but barely if at all wet, she's a dry boat). I might have worried about getting back where we started when Daniel said he hoped there was enough gas in the tank. But I figured we'd get somewhere else if necessary and the boat could handle it if we could.
I ended up with an M17 and that suits me, it's my "big" little boat. I use it when I can "lake cruise" for days or have it in a slip for a while. Eventually I will get it up to Puget Sound and BC gulf islands etc.
For day sails when "Pajarita" is not in the water or I want a simpler ride, I can take my El Toro most anywhere on my roof. Because maybe a friend or two wants to join me, or learn to sail themselves, I will probably build a slightly larger (than the El Toro), easy to transport rig and sail day sailor. Goat Island Skiff and Goose Explorer are my two top contenders at present.
Anyhow...my one significant experience with the M15 seemed to indicate it's a very capable design in blustery conditions. Well done Jerry! I'm not complaining :-)
cheers, John
On 8/4/21 4:30 PM, Jon Barber wrote:
I can't speak to the sea keeping ability of the 15 as I have not sailed one. I know when it gets to blowing my 17 hunters down and does what it does best. Gets me back to the marina with little fuss. I seem to catch up to the speed demons when it pipes up as my boat surges on and their boats round up. When it comes to rigging and un rigging times it all about efficiency. I changed to the ruddercraft set up (I know some disagree with this) so the rudder could stay in place. I have a mast crutch, also stays in place. The main is rolled on the boom with reef lines, outhaul etc. in place. Jib sheets stay on the jibs. I hate the damn compression post but have learned to live with it and now sleep quite comfortably in the quarter berth. The boat will show you what it requires of you. Learn to listen. It is a heavy tow. But I leave nearly every other boat in my class in the dust as well as other, bigger boats. I'm not giving that up for convenience on the launch ramp. I always get comments about how pretty my boat is from strangers, that's not bad for the ego, either. Is there a better boat out there? Probably the Sage 17. Will I own one? Not in this lifetime. Thanks for a great boat Jerry. Get out and sail and QUIT COMPLAINING, Jon Barber Monty 17 Ol'44 On Wed, Aug 4, 2021, 11:40 AM <montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Send montgomery_boats mailing list submissions to montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com
You can reach the person managing the list at montgomery_boats-owner@mailman.xmission.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: M15 or M17 (Peter Zimowsky) 2. Re: M15 or M17 (Peter Zimowsky) 3. Re: Winches on my M17 (jerry montgomery)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 07:32:39 -0600 From: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17 To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Message-ID: <5B469FC9-15E8-430F-9D02-63AC26A9D7CC@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
John: Thanks for the insight. I’m just a cautious boater (whitewater and open water). Learn that from my dad crossing five miles across Barnegat Bay in Jersey. Remember bucking fierce afternoon storms that came up suddenly. We never had an issue. Getting older and more wary. Good winds,
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 9:32 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Another two cents...if you are cruising or on a mooring or in a slip for multiple days or weeks, an extra 20 or 30 minutes to rig up and down a 17 vs. 15 is not a big deal. But for day sailing, or less than a night or two out, for me at least, it's a deal breaker. I typically don't put in for less than 4-5 days of boat in water. That's what dinghies and other small light quick to rig day sailors are for... :-)
cheers, John
On 8/3/21 8:26 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not? Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional. Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier. My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-) cheers, John On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hi Dave: I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there?
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
> On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote: > > Peter: > > Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to > tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable > sailers & cruisers. > > M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom. > > > :: Dave Scobie > :: M6'8" #650 > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! > > > On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < > montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: > >> I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the >> bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service >> for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. >> I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 >> mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering >> about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I >> sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth >> it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra >> room of a 17. Perplexed. >> >> Pete WinterSky >> (Zimowsky) >> >> San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush >> >> outdoors writer and photographer >> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky >> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors >> The Northwest Outdoors Journey: >> https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ >> >> "We Can Not Control the Wind >> But We Can Adjust Our Sails" >>
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 07:34:17 -0600 From: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17 To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Message-ID: <BFA5959D-EFC7-407B-ADA9-B8E23378DA40@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Yup. I sail once a week for a day at the local reservoir and it’s easy to rig ( 35 minutes). That’s the advantage of the 15.
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 9:32 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Another two cents...if you are cruising or on a mooring or in a slip for multiple days or weeks, an extra 20 or 30 minutes to rig up and down a 17 vs. 15 is not a big deal. But for day sailing, or less than a night or two out, for me at least, it's a deal breaker. I typically don't put in for less than 4-5 days of boat in water. That's what dinghies and other small light quick to rig day sailors are for... :-)
cheers, John
On 8/3/21 8:26 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not? Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional. Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier. My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-) cheers, John On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hi Dave: I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there?
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
> On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote: > > Peter: > > Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to > tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable > sailers & cruisers. > > M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom. > > > :: Dave Scobie > :: M6'8" #650 > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! > > > On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < > montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: > >> I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the >> bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service >> for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. >> I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 >> mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering >> about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I >> sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth >> it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra >> room of a 17. Perplexed. >> >> Pete WinterSky >> (Zimowsky) >> >> San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush >> >> outdoors writer and photographer >> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky >> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors >> The Northwest Outdoors Journey: >> https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ >> >> "We Can Not Control the Wind >> But We Can Adjust Our Sails" >>
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 18:39:47 +0000 From: jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Winches on my M17 To: "montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Message-ID: <BYAPR19MB287288753448D9E5345928E8E6F19@BYAPR19MB2872.nam prd19.prod.outlook.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
The problem is caused by the coamings being so hi. The tilting was a suggestion of Lyle Hess aimed at being a compromise. A good crew learns to work things after wrapping a time or two. Not a big problem, but can be annoying. If I were doing it over, i'd use a 7/8 rig, like the Sage 17, which has the shrouds raked aft, allowing a larger working jib The lack of height of the fractional jib is compensated for by using a taller rig.. The Sage is more similar to the tall rig M-17 in terms of area and heeling moment, but is stiffer because of the carbon deck. The winches, as well as the jib fairlead cars, go on the cabintop. The 150 or larger sheets are still sheeted on the rail but by the time the sheets got up to the cabintop the angle is more easy to live with. Cabintop winches are faster and easier for the crew.
Lyle designed the rig for the m-17 from my sketches, so that's on me. In the early 70's masthead rigs were all the rage because of the IOR rule, which favored them; that's why I favored it.
Quit complaining!
jerry
________________________________ From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 8:29 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Winches on my M17
Yeah nobody actually said why are the winches canted. Jerry? Dave? Bob?
I don't know why for sure, but from the way the sheets run and the coaming sits etc. I have assumed it's for improving the direction and/or angle of the sheets vs. the winch. How the sheets run on and off the winch, etc. If they were flat on the coaming I think the angles would not be so good, regardless of where the blocks were. And probably they can't be perfect for every location of jib sheet blocks so in some cases the angle isn't so great...?
cheers John
: Winches on my M17
I have a M17 Hull #502 built in 1993. I sailed her for a number of
years and could never figure out why the winches are canted out. My wife and I barrel race on Barnegat Bay in NJ and have a difficult time trimming the
150 jib as the line is always crossed over. Any comments on crew positioning are welcome. Thanks
-- Best Regards,
Bob Goodyear rbgoodyear@gmail.com 732.684.1738 c
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________ montgomery_boats mailing list -- montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com To unsubscribe send an email to montgomery_boats-leave@mailman.xmission.com %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
------------------------------
End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 222, Issue 6 ************************************************
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Hello John, so is the "AS-IS" to become the MissT 2? Nice to see you adding your two cents here. Your experiences are of great value to all on this website and one of the good reasons to own a Monty. I am paying attention to the Saturday Night Special bunch now and have already picked up some very useful information. Sailing......gotta love it! Fair winds, Tom On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 5:37 PM Saltm17 via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
15 vs 17 Both boats are quality designs and excellently constructed. The M15 is at it's best in light winds and no waves. Under those conditions it can keep up with the M17 and in real light winds can past it. Once the winds pick up past 2-3 kts, the longer waterlength and more sail area favor the m17. I have never sailed a m15 but I have gone on many cruises with a flotilla of 15s and 17s as well as a occasional catboat and motor boat and have seen all of them in everything from a dead calm to winds gusting to about 20 knots and waves. I have a large variety of sails for my M17 "Miss T" from a 155 to a VERY tiny storm jib and at one time used all of them (except the tiny storm jib) .I have a double reef in the main. In an honest 25+ mp winds and surrounded by whitecaps and waves Miss T has gone to windward with a double reef in the main and the larger" storm jib. without any fuss but you have to be very alert in those conditions. In very strong winds Miss T wants to round up hard. This could be adjusted with reduction of the main sail (3d reef) but I want to know that she will round up if for some reason I let go of the tiller. Cruising.... the M17 has an amazing storage capacity and have spent a week at times without stopping for supplies. The V berth is where the kayak is stored when not in use (deflated) The other half of the Vberth is left open. I've never provisioned an M15 for a cruise so maybe some M15 owners will share their experiences.
There are 2 definite advantages for the M15. 1. The M15 is easier to rig. It always seems when I get to the launching area I am anxious to get under way and the M15 doesn't take as long to get the rig ready as the M17. With good organization and frequent use the difference isn't much more than a couple of minutes at longest. Loading supplies takes longer than rigging either boat. 2. The M15 is beachable. It is an advantage if you like to go onshore for a hike, beach party etc. or just want to take walk and stretch your legs. But I have NEVER missed a beach party though I have waded ashore and sometimes used the inflatable canoe. Hope that helps some. But you can't go wrong with either boat if you know what kind of sailing you want to do. John EdwardsMiss T M17 # 372
-----Original Message----- From: Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net>; Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Sent: Wed, Aug 4, 2021 10:08 pm Subject: M_Boats: Re: 15 v 17
Thanks again for the experiences with a M15 Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 4, 2021, at 8:02 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I shared this story long ago but here's the short version:
Had never been on a Monty yet but wanted one. Got to go out with Daniel Rich on his M15 in Tomales bay years ago. It's a windy windy place in the summer. Sure enough wind picked up, and up, in the first hour or so. Time to head back to the launch ramp... We couldn't make headway tacking to windward (old soft sails, no backstay, rounding up in gusts, blowing 20+, 2 ft steep wind chop etc.). So we eventually had to drop sails and motor back upwind to the launch ramp.
At no point in all of this, I realized afterwards, was I ever worried about the seaworthiness of the boat. Tacking and tacking and getting bounced around (but barely if at all wet, she's a dry boat). I might have worried about getting back where we started when Daniel said he hoped there was enough gas in the tank. But I figured we'd get somewhere else if necessary and the boat could handle it if we could.
I ended up with an M17 and that suits me, it's my "big" little boat. I use it when I can "lake cruise" for days or have it in a slip for a while. Eventually I will get it up to Puget Sound and BC gulf islands etc.
For day sails when "Pajarita" is not in the water or I want a simpler ride, I can take my El Toro most anywhere on my roof. Because maybe a friend or two wants to join me, or learn to sail themselves, I will probably build a slightly larger (than the El Toro), easy to transport rig and sail day sailor. Goat Island Skiff and Goose Explorer are my two top contenders at present.
Anyhow...my one significant experience with the M15 seemed to indicate it's a very capable design in blustery conditions. Well done Jerry! I'm not complaining :-)
cheers, John
On 8/4/21 4:30 PM, Jon Barber wrote:
I can't speak to the sea keeping ability of the 15 as I have not sailed one. I know when it gets to blowing my 17 hunters down and does what it does best. Gets me back to the marina with little fuss. I seem to catch up to the speed demons when it pipes up as my boat surges on and their boats round up. When it comes to rigging and un rigging times it all about efficiency. I changed to the ruddercraft set up (I know some disagree with this) so the rudder could stay in place. I have a mast crutch, also stays in place. The main is rolled on the boom with reef lines, outhaul etc. in place. Jib sheets stay on the jibs. I hate the damn compression post but have learned to live with it and now sleep quite comfortably in the quarter berth. The boat will show you what it requires of you. Learn to listen. It is a heavy tow. But I leave nearly every other boat in my class in the dust as well as other, bigger boats. I'm not giving that up for convenience on the launch ramp. I always get comments about how pretty my boat is from strangers, that's not bad for the ego, either. Is there a better boat out there? Probably the Sage 17. Will I own one? Not in this lifetime. Thanks for a great boat Jerry. Get out and sail and QUIT COMPLAINING, Jon Barber Monty 17 Ol'44 On Wed, Aug 4, 2021, 11:40 AM < montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Send montgomery_boats mailing list submissions to montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com
You can reach the person managing the list at montgomery_boats-owner@mailman.xmission.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: M15 or M17 (Peter Zimowsky) 2. Re: M15 or M17 (Peter Zimowsky) 3. Re: Winches on my M17 (jerry montgomery)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 07:32:39 -0600 From: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17 To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Message-ID: <5B469FC9-15E8-430F-9D02-63AC26A9D7CC@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
John: Thanks for the insight. I’m just a cautious boater (whitewater and open water). Learn that from my dad crossing five miles across Barnegat Bay in Jersey. Remember bucking fierce afternoon storms that came up suddenly. We never had an issue. Getting older and more wary. Good winds,
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 9:32 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Another two cents...if you are cruising or on a mooring or in a slip for multiple days or weeks, an extra 20 or 30 minutes to rig up and down a 17 vs. 15 is not a big deal. But for day sailing, or less than a night or two out, for me at least, it's a deal breaker. I typically don't put in for less than 4-5 days of boat in water. That's what dinghies and other small light quick to rig day sailors are for... :-)
cheers, John
On 8/3/21 8:26 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not? Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional. Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier. My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-) cheers, John On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote: > Hi Dave: > I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there? > > Pete WinterSky > (Zimowsky) > > San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush > > outdoors writer and photographer > Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky > Twitter: @zimosoutdoors > The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ > > "We Can Not Control the Wind > But We Can Adjust Our Sails" > >> On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Peter: >> >> Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to >> tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable >> sailers & cruisers. >> >> M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom. >> >> >> :: Dave Scobie >> :: M6'8" #650 >> :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com >> :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com >> :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < >> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: >> >>> I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the >>> bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service >>> for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. >>> I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 >>> mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering >>> about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I >>> sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth >>> it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra >>> room of a 17. Perplexed. >>> >>> Pete WinterSky >>> (Zimowsky) >>> >>> San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush >>> >>> outdoors writer and photographer >>> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky >>> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors >>> The Northwest Outdoors Journey: >>> https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ >>> >>> "We Can Not Control the Wind >>> But We Can Adjust Our Sails" >>> >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 07:34:17 -0600 From: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17 To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Message-ID: <BFA5959D-EFC7-407B-ADA9-B8E23378DA40@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Yup. I sail once a week for a day at the local reservoir and it’s easy to rig ( 35 minutes). That’s the advantage of the 15.
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 9:32 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Another two cents...if you are cruising or on a mooring or in a slip for multiple days or weeks, an extra 20 or 30 minutes to rig up and down a 17 vs. 15 is not a big deal. But for day sailing, or less than a night or two out, for me at least, it's a deal breaker. I typically don't put in for less than 4-5 days of boat in water. That's what dinghies and other small light quick to rig day sailors are for... :-)
cheers, John
On 8/3/21 8:26 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not? Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional. Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier. My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-) cheers, John On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote: > Hi Dave: > I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there? > > Pete WinterSky > (Zimowsky) > > San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush > > outdoors writer and photographer > Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky > Twitter: @zimosoutdoors > The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ > > "We Can Not Control the Wind > But We Can Adjust Our Sails" > >> On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Peter: >> >> Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to >> tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable >> sailers & cruisers. >> >> M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom. >> >> >> :: Dave Scobie >> :: M6'8" #650 >> :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com >> :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com >> :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < >> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: >> >>> I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the >>> bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service >>> for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. >>> I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 >>> mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering >>> about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I >>> sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth >>> it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra >>> room of a 17. Perplexed. >>> >>> Pete WinterSky >>> (Zimowsky) >>> >>> San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush >>> >>> outdoors writer and photographer >>> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky >>> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors >>> The Northwest Outdoors Journey: >>> https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ >>> >>> "We Can Not Control the Wind >>> But We Can Adjust Our Sails" >>> >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 18:39:47 +0000 From: jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Winches on my M17 To: "montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Message-ID: <BYAPR19MB287288753448D9E5345928E8E6F19@BYAPR19MB2872.nam prd19.prod.outlook.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
The problem is caused by the coamings being so hi. The tilting was a suggestion of Lyle Hess aimed at being a compromise. A good crew learns to work things after wrapping a time or two. Not a big problem, but can be annoying. If I were doing it over, i'd use a 7/8 rig, like the Sage 17, which has the shrouds raked aft, allowing a larger working jib The lack of height of the fractional jib is compensated for by using a taller rig.. The Sage is more similar to the tall rig M-17 in terms of area and heeling moment, but is stiffer because of the carbon deck. The winches, as well as the jib fairlead cars, go on the cabintop. The 150 or larger sheets are still sheeted on the rail but by the time the sheets got up to the cabintop the angle is more easy to live with. Cabintop winches are faster and easier for the crew.
Lyle designed the rig for the m-17 from my sketches, so that's on me. In the early 70's masthead rigs were all the rage because of the IOR rule, which favored them; that's why I favored it.
Quit complaining!
jerry
________________________________ From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 8:29 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Winches on my M17
Yeah nobody actually said why are the winches canted. Jerry? Dave? Bob?
I don't know why for sure, but from the way the sheets run and the coaming sits etc. I have assumed it's for improving the direction and/or angle of the sheets vs. the winch. How the sheets run on and off the winch, etc. If they were flat on the coaming I think the angles would not be so good, regardless of where the blocks were. And probably they can't be perfect for every location of jib sheet blocks so in some cases the angle isn't so great...?
cheers John
: Winches on my M17
> > I have a M17 Hull #502 built in 1993. I sailed her for a number of years and could never figure out why the winches are canted out. My wife and I barrel race on Barnegat Bay in NJ and have a difficult time trimming the > 150 jib as the line is always crossed over. Any comments on crew positioning are welcome. Thanks > > -- > Best Regards, > > Bob Goodyear > rbgoodyear@gmail.com > 732.684.1738 c
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________ montgomery_boats mailing list -- montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com To unsubscribe send an email to montgomery_boats-leave@mailman.xmission.com %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
------------------------------
End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 222, Issue 6 ************************************************
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Hi: Alll you folks are amazing with all this experience and tips. Really appreciate it. Launching in the San Juans next Friday evening Aug. 13. If you’re in the neighborhood of Fishermen Bay Saturday or Sunday , give a yell on 69 for Chinook Breeze. Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky) San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 6, 2021, at 8:57 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello John, so is the "AS-IS" to become the MissT 2? Nice to see you adding your two cents here. Your experiences are of great value to all on this website and one of the good reasons to own a Monty. I am paying attention to the Saturday Night Special bunch now and have already picked up some very useful information. Sailing......gotta love it! Fair winds, Tom
On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 5:37 PM Saltm17 via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
15 vs 17 Both boats are quality designs and excellently constructed. The M15 is at it's best in light winds and no waves. Under those conditions it can keep up with the M17 and in real light winds can past it. Once the winds pick up past 2-3 kts, the longer waterlength and more sail area favor the m17. I have never sailed a m15 but I have gone on many cruises with a flotilla of 15s and 17s as well as a occasional catboat and motor boat and have seen all of them in everything from a dead calm to winds gusting to about 20 knots and waves. I have a large variety of sails for my M17 "Miss T" from a 155 to a VERY tiny storm jib and at one time used all of them (except the tiny storm jib) .I have a double reef in the main. In an honest 25+ mp winds and surrounded by whitecaps and waves Miss T has gone to windward with a double reef in the main and the larger" storm jib. without any fuss but you have to be very alert in those conditions. In very strong winds Miss T wants to round up hard. This could be adjusted with reduction of the main sail (3d reef) but I want to know that she will round up if for some reason I let go of the tiller. Cruising.... the M17 has an amazing storage capacity and have spent a week at times without stopping for supplies. The V berth is where the kayak is stored when not in use (deflated) The other half of the Vberth is left open. I've never provisioned an M15 for a cruise so maybe some M15 owners will share their experiences.
There are 2 definite advantages for the M15. 1. The M15 is easier to rig. It always seems when I get to the launching area I am anxious to get under way and the M15 doesn't take as long to get the rig ready as the M17. With good organization and frequent use the difference isn't much more than a couple of minutes at longest. Loading supplies takes longer than rigging either boat. 2. The M15 is beachable. It is an advantage if you like to go onshore for a hike, beach party etc. or just want to take walk and stretch your legs. But I have NEVER missed a beach party though I have waded ashore and sometimes used the inflatable canoe. Hope that helps some. But you can't go wrong with either boat if you know what kind of sailing you want to do. John EdwardsMiss T M17 # 372
-----Original Message----- From: Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net>; Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Sent: Wed, Aug 4, 2021 10:08 pm Subject: M_Boats: Re: 15 v 17
Thanks again for the experiences with a M15 Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 4, 2021, at 8:02 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I shared this story long ago but here's the short version:
Had never been on a Monty yet but wanted one. Got to go out with Daniel Rich on his M15 in Tomales bay years ago. It's a windy windy place in the summer. Sure enough wind picked up, and up, in the first hour or so. Time to head back to the launch ramp... We couldn't make headway tacking to windward (old soft sails, no backstay, rounding up in gusts, blowing 20+, 2 ft steep wind chop etc.). So we eventually had to drop sails and motor back upwind to the launch ramp.
At no point in all of this, I realized afterwards, was I ever worried about the seaworthiness of the boat. Tacking and tacking and getting bounced around (but barely if at all wet, she's a dry boat). I might have worried about getting back where we started when Daniel said he hoped there was enough gas in the tank. But I figured we'd get somewhere else if necessary and the boat could handle it if we could.
I ended up with an M17 and that suits me, it's my "big" little boat. I use it when I can "lake cruise" for days or have it in a slip for a while. Eventually I will get it up to Puget Sound and BC gulf islands etc.
For day sails when "Pajarita" is not in the water or I want a simpler ride, I can take my El Toro most anywhere on my roof. Because maybe a friend or two wants to join me, or learn to sail themselves, I will probably build a slightly larger (than the El Toro), easy to transport rig and sail day sailor. Goat Island Skiff and Goose Explorer are my two top contenders at present.
Anyhow...my one significant experience with the M15 seemed to indicate it's a very capable design in blustery conditions. Well done Jerry! I'm not complaining :-)
cheers, John
On 8/4/21 4:30 PM, Jon Barber wrote:
I can't speak to the sea keeping ability of the 15 as I have not sailed one. I know when it gets to blowing my 17 hunters down and does what it does best. Gets me back to the marina with little fuss. I seem to catch up to the speed demons when it pipes up as my boat surges on and their boats round up. When it comes to rigging and un rigging times it all about efficiency. I changed to the ruddercraft set up (I know some disagree with this) so the rudder could stay in place. I have a mast crutch, also stays in place. The main is rolled on the boom with reef lines, outhaul etc. in place. Jib sheets stay on the jibs. I hate the damn compression post but have learned to live with it and now sleep quite comfortably in the quarter berth. The boat will show you what it requires of you. Learn to listen. It is a heavy tow. But I leave nearly every other boat in my class in the dust as well as other, bigger boats. I'm not giving that up for convenience on the launch ramp. I always get comments about how pretty my boat is from strangers, that's not bad for the ego, either. Is there a better boat out there? Probably the Sage 17. Will I own one? Not in this lifetime. Thanks for a great boat Jerry. Get out and sail and QUIT COMPLAINING, Jon Barber Monty 17 Ol'44 On Wed, Aug 4, 2021, 11:40 AM < montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Send montgomery_boats mailing list submissions to montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com
You can reach the person managing the list at montgomery_boats-owner@mailman.xmission.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: M15 or M17 (Peter Zimowsky) 2. Re: M15 or M17 (Peter Zimowsky) 3. Re: Winches on my M17 (jerry montgomery)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 07:32:39 -0600 From: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17 To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Message-ID: <5B469FC9-15E8-430F-9D02-63AC26A9D7CC@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
John: Thanks for the insight. I’m just a cautious boater (whitewater and open water). Learn that from my dad crossing five miles across Barnegat Bay in Jersey. Remember bucking fierce afternoon storms that came up suddenly. We never had an issue. Getting older and more wary. Good winds,
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 9:32 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Another two cents...if you are cruising or on a mooring or in a slip for multiple days or weeks, an extra 20 or 30 minutes to rig up and down a 17 vs. 15 is not a big deal. But for day sailing, or less than a night or two out, for me at least, it's a deal breaker. I typically don't put in for less than 4-5 days of boat in water. That's what dinghies and other small light quick to rig day sailors are for... :-)
cheers, John
On 8/3/21 8:26 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote: > If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not? > Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. > Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional. > Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier. > My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-) > cheers, > John > On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote: >> Hi Dave: >> I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there? >> >> Pete WinterSky >> (Zimowsky) >> >> San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush >> >> outdoors writer and photographer >> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky >> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors >> The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ >> >> "We Can Not Control the Wind >> But We Can Adjust Our Sails" >> >>> On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Peter: >>> >>> Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to >>> tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable >>> sailers & cruisers. >>> >>> M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom. >>> >>> >>> :: Dave Scobie >>> :: M6'8" #650 >>> :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com >>> :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com >>> :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < >>> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the >>>> bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service >>>> for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. >>>> I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 >>>> mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering >>>> about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I >>>> sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth >>>> it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra >>>> room of a 17. Perplexed. >>>> >>>> Pete WinterSky >>>> (Zimowsky) >>>> >>>> San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush >>>> >>>> outdoors writer and photographer >>>> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky >>>> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors >>>> The Northwest Outdoors Journey: >>>> https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ >>>> >>>> "We Can Not Control the Wind >>>> But We Can Adjust Our Sails" >>>> >>
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 07:34:17 -0600 From: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17 To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Message-ID: <BFA5959D-EFC7-407B-ADA9-B8E23378DA40@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Yup. I sail once a week for a day at the local reservoir and it’s easy to rig ( 35 minutes). That’s the advantage of the 15.
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 9:32 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Another two cents...if you are cruising or on a mooring or in a slip for multiple days or weeks, an extra 20 or 30 minutes to rig up and down a 17 vs. 15 is not a big deal. But for day sailing, or less than a night or two out, for me at least, it's a deal breaker. I typically don't put in for less than 4-5 days of boat in water. That's what dinghies and other small light quick to rig day sailors are for... :-)
cheers, John
On 8/3/21 8:26 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote: > If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not? > Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. > Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional. > Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier. > My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-) > cheers, > John > On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote: >> Hi Dave: >> I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there? >> >> Pete WinterSky >> (Zimowsky) >> >> San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush >> >> outdoors writer and photographer >> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky >> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors >> The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ >> >> "We Can Not Control the Wind >> But We Can Adjust Our Sails" >> >>> On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Peter: >>> >>> Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to >>> tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable >>> sailers & cruisers. >>> >>> M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom. >>> >>> >>> :: Dave Scobie >>> :: M6'8" #650 >>> :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com >>> :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com >>> :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < >>> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the >>>> bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service >>>> for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. >>>> I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 >>>> mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering >>>> about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I >>>> sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth >>>> it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra >>>> room of a 17. Perplexed. >>>> >>>> Pete WinterSky >>>> (Zimowsky) >>>> >>>> San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush >>>> >>>> outdoors writer and photographer >>>> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky >>>> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors >>>> The Northwest Outdoors Journey: >>>> https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ >>>> >>>> "We Can Not Control the Wind >>>> But We Can Adjust Our Sails" >>>> >>
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 18:39:47 +0000 From: jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Winches on my M17 To: "montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Message-ID: <BYAPR19MB287288753448D9E5345928E8E6F19@BYAPR19MB2872.nam prd19.prod.outlook.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
The problem is caused by the coamings being so hi. The tilting was a suggestion of Lyle Hess aimed at being a compromise. A good crew learns to work things after wrapping a time or two. Not a big problem, but can be annoying. If I were doing it over, i'd use a 7/8 rig, like the Sage 17, which has the shrouds raked aft, allowing a larger working jib The lack of height of the fractional jib is compensated for by using a taller rig.. The Sage is more similar to the tall rig M-17 in terms of area and heeling moment, but is stiffer because of the carbon deck. The winches, as well as the jib fairlead cars, go on the cabintop. The 150 or larger sheets are still sheeted on the rail but by the time the sheets got up to the cabintop the angle is more easy to live with. Cabintop winches are faster and easier for the crew.
Lyle designed the rig for the m-17 from my sketches, so that's on me. In the early 70's masthead rigs were all the rage because of the IOR rule, which favored them; that's why I favored it.
Quit complaining!
jerry
________________________________ From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 8:29 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Winches on my M17
Yeah nobody actually said why are the winches canted. Jerry? Dave? Bob?
I don't know why for sure, but from the way the sheets run and the coaming sits etc. I have assumed it's for improving the direction and/or angle of the sheets vs. the winch. How the sheets run on and off the winch, etc. If they were flat on the coaming I think the angles would not be so good, regardless of where the blocks were. And probably they can't be perfect for every location of jib sheet blocks so in some cases the angle isn't so great...?
cheers John
: Winches on my M17
>> >> I have a M17 Hull #502 built in 1993. I sailed her for a number of years and could never figure out why the winches are canted out. My wife and I barrel race on Barnegat Bay in NJ and have a difficult time trimming the >> 150 jib as the line is always crossed over. Any comments on crew positioning are welcome. Thanks >> >> -- >> Best Regards, >> >> Bob Goodyear >> rbgoodyear@gmail.com >> 732.684.1738 c
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________ montgomery_boats mailing list -- montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com To unsubscribe send an email to montgomery_boats-leave@mailman.xmission.com %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
------------------------------
End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 222, Issue 6 ************************************************
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Both the 17 and the 15 can nose up to shore if the shore is not too shallow...just sayin'. Both have the fixed keel part which limits how shallow a beach they can pull up to. The 17 has deeper draft, but also is a bit longer. Neither is beachable like fully beachable boats are... cheers, John On 8/5/21 3:36 PM, Saltm17 via montgomery_boats wrote:
15 vs 17 Both boats are quality designs and excellently constructed. The M15 is at it's best in light winds and no waves. Under those conditions it can keep up with the M17 and in real light winds can past it. Once the winds pick up past 2-3 kts, the longer waterlength and more sail area favor the m17. I have never sailed a m15 but I have gone on many cruises with a flotilla of 15s and 17s as well as a occasional catboat and motor boat and have seen all of them in everything from a dead calm to winds gusting to about 20 knots and waves. I have a large variety of sails for my M17 "Miss T" from a 155 to a VERY tiny storm jib and at one time used all of them (except the tiny storm jib) .I have a double reef in the main. In an honest 25+ mp winds and surrounded by whitecaps and waves Miss T has gone to windward with a double reef in the main and the larger" storm jib. without any fuss but you have to be very alert in those conditions. In very strong winds Miss T wants to round up hard. This could be adjusted with reduction of the main sail (3d reef) but I want to know that she will round up if for some reason I let go of the tiller. Cruising.... the M17 has an amazing storage capacity and have spent a week at times without stopping for supplies. The V berth is where the kayak is stored when not in use (deflated) The other half of the Vberth is left open. I've never provisioned an M15 for a cruise so maybe some M15 owners will share their experiences.
There are 2 definite advantages for the M15. 1. The M15 is easier to rig. It always seems when I get to the launching area I am anxious to get under way and the M15 doesn't take as long to get the rig ready as the M17. With good organization and frequent use the difference isn't much more than a couple of minutes at longest. Loading supplies takes longer than rigging either boat. 2. The M15 is beachable. It is an advantage if you like to go onshore for a hike, beach party etc. or just want to take walk and stretch your legs. But I have NEVER missed a beach party though I have waded ashore and sometimes used the inflatable canoe. Hope that helps some. But you can't go wrong with either boat if you know what kind of sailing you want to do. John EdwardsMiss T M17 # 372
-----Original Message----- From: Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net>; Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Sent: Wed, Aug 4, 2021 10:08 pm Subject: M_Boats: Re: 15 v 17
Thanks again for the experiences with a M15 Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 4, 2021, at 8:02 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I shared this story long ago but here's the short version:
Had never been on a Monty yet but wanted one. Got to go out with Daniel Rich on his M15 in Tomales bay years ago. It's a windy windy place in the summer. Sure enough wind picked up, and up, in the first hour or so. Time to head back to the launch ramp... We couldn't make headway tacking to windward (old soft sails, no backstay, rounding up in gusts, blowing 20+, 2 ft steep wind chop etc.). So we eventually had to drop sails and motor back upwind to the launch ramp.
At no point in all of this, I realized afterwards, was I ever worried about the seaworthiness of the boat. Tacking and tacking and getting bounced around (but barely if at all wet, she's a dry boat). I might have worried about getting back where we started when Daniel said he hoped there was enough gas in the tank. But I figured we'd get somewhere else if necessary and the boat could handle it if we could.
I ended up with an M17 and that suits me, it's my "big" little boat. I use it when I can "lake cruise" for days or have it in a slip for a while. Eventually I will get it up to Puget Sound and BC gulf islands etc.
For day sails when "Pajarita" is not in the water or I want a simpler ride, I can take my El Toro most anywhere on my roof. Because maybe a friend or two wants to join me, or learn to sail themselves, I will probably build a slightly larger (than the El Toro), easy to transport rig and sail day sailor. Goat Island Skiff and Goose Explorer are my two top contenders at present.
Anyhow...my one significant experience with the M15 seemed to indicate it's a very capable design in blustery conditions. Well done Jerry! I'm not complaining :-)
cheers, John
On 8/4/21 4:30 PM, Jon Barber wrote:
I can't speak to the sea keeping ability of the 15 as I have not sailed one. I know when it gets to blowing my 17 hunters down and does what it does best. Gets me back to the marina with little fuss. I seem to catch up to the speed demons when it pipes up as my boat surges on and their boats round up. When it comes to rigging and un rigging times it all about efficiency. I changed to the ruddercraft set up (I know some disagree with this) so the rudder could stay in place. I have a mast crutch, also stays in place. The main is rolled on the boom with reef lines, outhaul etc. in place. Jib sheets stay on the jibs. I hate the damn compression post but have learned to live with it and now sleep quite comfortably in the quarter berth. The boat will show you what it requires of you. Learn to listen. It is a heavy tow. But I leave nearly every other boat in my class in the dust as well as other, bigger boats. I'm not giving that up for convenience on the launch ramp. I always get comments about how pretty my boat is from strangers, that's not bad for the ego, either. Is there a better boat out there? Probably the Sage 17. Will I own one? Not in this lifetime. Thanks for a great boat Jerry. Get out and sail and QUIT COMPLAINING, Jon Barber Monty 17 Ol'44 On Wed, Aug 4, 2021, 11:40 AM <montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Send montgomery_boats mailing list submissions to montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com
You can reach the person managing the list at montgomery_boats-owner@mailman.xmission.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: M15 or M17 (Peter Zimowsky) 2. Re: M15 or M17 (Peter Zimowsky) 3. Re: Winches on my M17 (jerry montgomery)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 07:32:39 -0600 From: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17 To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Message-ID: <5B469FC9-15E8-430F-9D02-63AC26A9D7CC@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
John: Thanks for the insight. I’m just a cautious boater (whitewater and open water). Learn that from my dad crossing five miles across Barnegat Bay in Jersey. Remember bucking fierce afternoon storms that came up suddenly. We never had an issue. Getting older and more wary. Good winds,
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 9:32 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Another two cents...if you are cruising or on a mooring or in a slip for multiple days or weeks, an extra 20 or 30 minutes to rig up and down a 17 vs. 15 is not a big deal. But for day sailing, or less than a night or two out, for me at least, it's a deal breaker. I typically don't put in for less than 4-5 days of boat in water. That's what dinghies and other small light quick to rig day sailors are for... :-)
cheers, John
On 8/3/21 8:26 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not? Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional. Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier. My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-) cheers, John On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote: > Hi Dave: > I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there? > > Pete WinterSky > (Zimowsky) > > San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush > > outdoors writer and photographer > Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky > Twitter: @zimosoutdoors > The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ > > "We Can Not Control the Wind > But We Can Adjust Our Sails" > >> On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Peter: >> >> Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to >> tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable >> sailers & cruisers. >> >> M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom. >> >> >> :: Dave Scobie >> :: M6'8" #650 >> :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com >> :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com >> :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < >> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: >> >>> I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the >>> bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service >>> for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. >>> I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 >>> mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering >>> about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I >>> sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth >>> it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra >>> room of a 17. Perplexed. >>> >>> Pete WinterSky >>> (Zimowsky) >>> >>> San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush >>> >>> outdoors writer and photographer >>> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky >>> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors >>> The Northwest Outdoors Journey: >>> https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ >>> >>> "We Can Not Control the Wind >>> But We Can Adjust Our Sails" >>> >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 07:34:17 -0600 From: Peter Zimowsky <rapidz@mac.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17 To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Message-ID: <BFA5959D-EFC7-407B-ADA9-B8E23378DA40@mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Yup. I sail once a week for a day at the local reservoir and it’s easy to rig ( 35 minutes). That’s the advantage of the 15.
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 9:32 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Another two cents...if you are cruising or on a mooring or in a slip for multiple days or weeks, an extra 20 or 30 minutes to rig up and down a 17 vs. 15 is not a big deal. But for day sailing, or less than a night or two out, for me at least, it's a deal breaker. I typically don't put in for less than 4-5 days of boat in water. That's what dinghies and other small light quick to rig day sailors are for... :-)
cheers, John
On 8/3/21 8:26 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not? Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional. Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier. My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-) cheers, John On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote: > Hi Dave: > I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there? > > Pete WinterSky > (Zimowsky) > > San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush > > outdoors writer and photographer > Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky > Twitter: @zimosoutdoors > The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ > > "We Can Not Control the Wind > But We Can Adjust Our Sails" > >> On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Peter: >> >> Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to >> tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable >> sailers & cruisers. >> >> M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom. >> >> >> :: Dave Scobie >> :: M6'8" #650 >> :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com >> :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com >> :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < >> montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote: >> >>> I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the >>> bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service >>> for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. >>> I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 >>> mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering >>> about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I >>> sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth >>> it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra >>> room of a 17. Perplexed. >>> >>> Pete WinterSky >>> (Zimowsky) >>> >>> San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush >>> >>> outdoors writer and photographer >>> Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky >>> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors >>> The Northwest Outdoors Journey: >>> https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ >>> >>> "We Can Not Control the Wind >>> But We Can Adjust Our Sails" >>> >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 18:39:47 +0000 From: jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Winches on my M17 To: "montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Message-ID: <BYAPR19MB287288753448D9E5345928E8E6F19@BYAPR19MB2872.nam prd19.prod.outlook.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
The problem is caused by the coamings being so hi. The tilting was a suggestion of Lyle Hess aimed at being a compromise. A good crew learns to work things after wrapping a time or two. Not a big problem, but can be annoying. If I were doing it over, i'd use a 7/8 rig, like the Sage 17, which has the shrouds raked aft, allowing a larger working jib The lack of height of the fractional jib is compensated for by using a taller rig.. The Sage is more similar to the tall rig M-17 in terms of area and heeling moment, but is stiffer because of the carbon deck. The winches, as well as the jib fairlead cars, go on the cabintop. The 150 or larger sheets are still sheeted on the rail but by the time the sheets got up to the cabintop the angle is more easy to live with. Cabintop winches are faster and easier for the crew.
Lyle designed the rig for the m-17 from my sketches, so that's on me. In the early 70's masthead rigs were all the rage because of the IOR rule, which favored them; that's why I favored it.
Quit complaining!
jerry
________________________________ From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 8:29 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Winches on my M17
Yeah nobody actually said why are the winches canted. Jerry? Dave? Bob?
I don't know why for sure, but from the way the sheets run and the coaming sits etc. I have assumed it's for improving the direction and/or angle of the sheets vs. the winch. How the sheets run on and off the winch, etc. If they were flat on the coaming I think the angles would not be so good, regardless of where the blocks were. And probably they can't be perfect for every location of jib sheet blocks so in some cases the angle isn't so great...?
cheers John
: Winches on my M17
> > I have a M17 Hull #502 built in 1993. I sailed her for a number of years and could never figure out why the winches are canted out. My wife and I barrel race on Barnegat Bay in NJ and have a difficult time trimming the > 150 jib as the line is always crossed over. Any comments on crew positioning are welcome. Thanks > > -- > Best Regards, > > Bob Goodyear > rbgoodyear@gmail.com > 732.684.1738 c
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________ montgomery_boats mailing list -- montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com To unsubscribe send an email to montgomery_boats-leave@mailman.xmission.com %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
------------------------------
End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 222, Issue 6 ************************************************
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
participants (7)
-
Alex Conley -
John Schinnerer -
Jon Barber -
Larry Yake -
Peter Zimowsky -
Saltm17 -
Thomas Buzzi