I'm looking at getting an outboard for my M17 and I have a few questions. 1) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under sail? 2) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under power? 3) To what degree does the fuel tank get in the way either when under sail or power? 4) Any opinions on gasoline vs propane outboards? Thanks, Rob
I have a newer model Honda 5 hp with internal tank. Can also be feed with an external tank if needed. Works great. I’m a believer in Honda motors as I’ve had an older model 5 hp for at least 10 yrs on a Drascombe Lugger and never a problem. I use the 3 gal tank. It can only be feed by external tank but fits perfect in Lugger. Charlie A Sent from my iPad
On May 20, 2020, at 7:31 AM, Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm looking at getting an outboard for my M17 and I have a few questions.
1) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under sail? 2) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under power? 3) To what degree does the fuel tank get in the way either when under sail or power? 4) Any opinions on gasoline vs propane outboards?
Thanks, Rob
Hi: I have a 4-stroke, 4 horse Mercury that is fabulous. I use the motor’s tank most of the time on local reservoirs. When I am sailing the San Juans I use the external 3 gallon tank. Going from Anacortes to Blakely Island Harbor (in SJs) or Orcas and no wind and cruising I use about a gallon depending on currents. I carry a small one gallon plastic gas container to get it filled at the harbor and then replace the gas in the external tank. This has worked well. When on small reservoirs I keep extra gas in the one gallon container and leave the external tank at home. Good winds Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky) outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The clearest way into the Universe is through a forest wilderness – John Muir
On May 20, 2020, at 6:47 AM, Charlie via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I have a newer model Honda 5 hp with internal tank. Can also be feed with an external tank if needed. Works great. I’m a believer in Honda motors as I’ve had an older model 5 hp for at least 10 yrs on a Drascombe Lugger and never a problem. I use the 3 gal tank. It can only be feed by external tank but fits perfect in Lugger.
Charlie A
Sent from my iPad
On May 20, 2020, at 7:31 AM, Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm looking at getting an outboard for my M17 and I have a few questions.
1) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under sail? 2) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under power? 3) To what degree does the fuel tank get in the way either when under sail or power? 4) Any opinions on gasoline vs propane outboards?
Thanks, Rob
Hi All, This thread got me started on motor musings. Nasty, wonderful little beasties that they are. My M15 came with a 2 hp 4strk Honda of ancient origin. It starts reliably , in gear, lacking a centrifugal clutch,putting and hissing it’s fine spray exhaust. Reverse is simply turning the whole contraption 180degrees. It can be easily taken off and stored. Previously I had an old style Mac 25 with a six hp Yamaha. Even in the raised position it dragged the prop on stb tack in a good breeze. Arhg..... One day a cruiser came into our cove, skippered by a Chilean/Alaskan guy and his wife. The 36’ cutter had a motor but they never used it. They invited me out for an evening sail. We slipped the anchor on a bouy, with a secondary float hanging 50’ back on a 1/4” line. It was a spectacular scene, clouds and sky typical of Baja. What followed was a wonderful introduction to motorless sailing. He tossed cushions over, we picked them up under sail, etc. Spun on a dime, backing and filling twisting, turning, jibing and tacking. Returning, we tacked , Jib backed hove to, luffed the main and drifted down lazily and picked up the trailing painter, hauled her up to the main bouy, stowed gear.. The tequila came out, fine sipping stuff, as the sun went down. All of my previous sailing, with the exception of dingy racing and windsurfing, had been under the pressure of time, abetted by the little tyrant on the stern. I got two books on boat handling written with humor and precision by Englishmen, detailing endless exercises. I took the motor off. A week, then weeks, then years passed, hand, reef , launch,retrieve, fish all under sail. And always a book, food, and coffee for calms. Sailing became a joy again. I’m back in the PNW, and the motor is useful, morning calm and currents always. But my little frenemy doesn’t run the show. Sent from my iPhone
On May 20, 2020, at 6:32 AM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi: I have a 4-stroke, 4 horse Mercury that is fabulous. I use the motor’s tank most of the time on local reservoirs. When I am sailing the San Juans I use the external 3 gallon tank. Going from Anacortes to Blakely Island Harbor (in SJs) or Orcas and no wind and cruising I use about a gallon depending on currents. I carry a small one gallon plastic gas container to get it filled at the harbor and then replace the gas in the external tank. This has worked well. When on small reservoirs I keep extra gas in the one gallon container and leave the external tank at home. Good winds Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors
The clearest way into the Universe is through a forest wilderness – John Muir
On May 20, 2020, at 6:47 AM, Charlie via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I have a newer model Honda 5 hp with internal tank. Can also be feed with an external tank if needed. Works great. I’m a believer in Honda motors as I’ve had an older model 5 hp for at least 10 yrs on a Drascombe Lugger and never a problem. I use the 3 gal tank. It can only be feed by external tank but fits perfect in Lugger.
Charlie A
Sent from my iPad
On May 20, 2020, at 7:31 AM, Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm looking at getting an outboard for my M17 and I have a few questions.
1) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under sail? 2) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under power? 3) To what degree does the fuel tank get in the way either when under sail or power? 4) Any opinions on gasoline vs propane outboards?
Thanks, Rob
Thanks for this - and I second it - sail in, sail out whenever possible, that's why we call it 'sailing' not 'motoring', right? :-) I've gained the most skills and knowledge from sailing in and out of slips, on and off moorings, and in and out of coves and other swirly flukey wind zones. It can be frustrating; patience may be required; it's also seldom boring (unless it really is dead calm). I have always been surprised, when at a marina for some days, that most 'sailors' just crank up the motor and motor way out to "clear air" where there's nothing much to learn. And back in again. When I've been at Fern Ridge, and Howard Prairie (Oregon), I'm usually the only one sailing out and sailing in (excepting dinghies and other small necessarily motor-less boats). Personally, if it looks like there's any way I can sail out and in, no way will I crank up a gas motor. For the first few years I had my M17 I got by with an old Tanaka 1.75 hp ("AquaBug" branded) from back in the mid-80's. I only used it a few times for a couple hundred yards, to get in and out of a tight slip when the wind was blowing reverse of the normal. Once for maybe ten minutes solid, to get back when it went glassy unexpectedly on an odd weather day. Looking to cruise in larger NW waters "sometime soon," with often calm summer days & currents, I bought a Honda 2.3 a couple years ago. Mostly it stays silent. I might have two hours on it total so far. The most I used it yet was last year at Fern Ridge, mainly to test it out in various conditions from glassy to gusting 20+. I'll post test results separately. short version is, it's plenty of motor as an "auxiliary." If one wanted a water-cooled, then the Tohatsu (or Mercury, same motor different label) 3.5 would be more than enough. Suzuki also has a 2.5 water cooled since a couple years ago. cheers, John On 5/20/20 8:13 AM, Edward Epifani wrote:
Hi All, This thread got me started on motor musings. Nasty, wonderful little beasties that they are. My M15 came with a 2 hp 4strk Honda of ancient origin. It starts reliably , in gear, lacking a centrifugal clutch,putting and hissing it’s fine spray exhaust. Reverse is simply turning the whole contraption 180degrees. It can be easily taken off and stored. Previously I had an old style Mac 25 with a six hp Yamaha. Even in the raised position it dragged the prop on stb tack in a good breeze. Arhg..... One day a cruiser came into our cove, skippered by a Chilean/Alaskan guy and his wife. The 36’ cutter had a motor but they never used it. They invited me out for an evening sail. We slipped the anchor on a bouy, with a secondary float hanging 50’ back on a 1/4” line. It was a spectacular scene, clouds and sky typical of Baja. What followed was a wonderful introduction to motorless sailing. He tossed cushions over, we picked them up under sail, etc. Spun on a dime, backing and filling twisting, turning, jibing and tacking. Returning, we tacked , Jib backed hove to, luffed the main and drifted down lazily and picked up the trailing painter, hauled her up to the main bouy, stowed gear.. The tequila came out, fine sipping stuff, as the sun went down. All of my previous sailing, with the exception of dingy racing and windsurfing, had been under the pressure of time, abetted by the little tyrant on the stern. I got two books on boat handling written with humor and precision by Englishmen, detailing endless exercises. I took the motor off. A week, then weeks, then years passed, hand, reef , launch,retrieve, fish all under sail. And always a book, food, and coffee for calms. Sailing became a joy again. I’m back in the PNW, and the motor is useful, morning calm and currents always. But my little frenemy doesn’t run the show.
Sent from my iPhone
On May 20, 2020, at 6:32 AM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi: I have a 4-stroke, 4 horse Mercury that is fabulous. I use the motor’s tank most of the time on local reservoirs. When I am sailing the San Juans I use the external 3 gallon tank. Going from Anacortes to Blakely Island Harbor (in SJs) or Orcas and no wind and cruising I use about a gallon depending on currents. I carry a small one gallon plastic gas container to get it filled at the harbor and then replace the gas in the external tank. This has worked well. When on small reservoirs I keep extra gas in the one gallon container and leave the external tank at home. Good winds Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
outdoors writer and photographer www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com <http://www.getoutdoorsnorthwest.com/> Twitter: @zimosoutdoors
The clearest way into the Universe is through a forest wilderness – John Muir
On May 20, 2020, at 6:47 AM, Charlie via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I have a newer model Honda 5 hp with internal tank. Can also be feed with an external tank if needed. Works great. I’m a believer in Honda motors as I’ve had an older model 5 hp for at least 10 yrs on a Drascombe Lugger and never a problem. I use the 3 gal tank. It can only be feed by external tank but fits perfect in Lugger.
Charlie A
Sent from my iPad
On May 20, 2020, at 7:31 AM, Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm looking at getting an outboard for my M17 and I have a few questions.
1) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under sail? 2) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under power? 3) To what degree does the fuel tank get in the way either when under sail or power? 4) Any opinions on gasoline vs propane outboards?
Thanks, Rob
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Rob: First a question for you - what year is your M17? There is one issue that relates to the older 'first desk version' Mk1 boats with the outboard cutout in the transom that is different than the second generation Mk2 boats. A 4HP motor is more than enough for the M17. Sadly there are no more true 4HP motors made - most are now the same as a 6HP with de-rated carbs. This also means the motors weigh more than a true 4HP motor. Weight aft is bad. (Motor I always wish I had was the true 4HP Yamaha.). The new Honda 4/5/6 are excellent but way to heavy. I had a Suzuki 4 (6 is the same motor with external tank and alternator options). Place your external tank at the aft end of the cockpit footwell. Two reasons: #1 is the aft locker of the Mk2 boats is NOT safe for fuel storage as it is open to the cabin. #2 is the fuel can sitting at the aft end of the cockpit will encourage you to sit at the proper location near the head of the tiller NOT at the back of the cockpit! For most M17s this sitting location is just aft of the cockpit mainsheet floor traveler track (again there are some differences in the boats with traveler placement). The gas can doesn't get in the way. Propane has some negatives - mainly fuel tank storage, less range, refilling when cruising and the Lehr build quality is poor. IMO gasoline is still the best bet for a cruiser. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ On Wed, May 20, 2020, 4:31 AM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm looking at getting an outboard for my M17 and I have a few questions.
1) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under sail? 2) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under power? 3) To what degree does the fuel tank get in the way either when under sail or power? 4) Any opinions on gasoline vs propane outboards?
Thanks, Rob
Thanks or the replies so far. I'm frankly on the fence regarding gas vs propane. I'm leaning towards the Mercury 5 HP sail power model, 20" long shaft, mostly because it has reverse on the handle. Is the 20" adequate or is the extra long shaft better? Dave - I have a 1977 M17 with the cutout. I've attach two photos that I happen to have that show the transom of my actual boat. What is the concern here? Thanks, Rob On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 10:17 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Rob:
First a question for you - what year is your M17? There is one issue that relates to the older 'first desk version' Mk1 boats with the outboard cutout in the transom that is different than the second generation Mk2 boats.
A 4HP motor is more than enough for the M17. Sadly there are no more true 4HP motors made - most are now the same as a 6HP with de-rated carbs. This also means the motors weigh more than a true 4HP motor. Weight aft is bad. (Motor I always wish I had was the true 4HP Yamaha.). The new Honda 4/5/6 are excellent but way to heavy. I had a Suzuki 4 (6 is the same motor with external tank and alternator options).
Place your external tank at the aft end of the cockpit footwell. Two reasons: #1 is the aft locker of the Mk2 boats is NOT safe for fuel storage as it is open to the cabin. #2 is the fuel can sitting at the aft end of the cockpit will encourage you to sit at the proper location near the head of the tiller NOT at the back of the cockpit! For most M17s this sitting location is just aft of the cockpit mainsheet floor traveler track (again there are some differences in the boats with traveler placement).
The gas can doesn't get in the way.
Propane has some negatives - mainly fuel tank storage, less range, refilling when cruising and the Lehr build quality is poor. IMO gasoline is still the best bet for a cruiser.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 4:31 AM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm looking at getting an outboard for my M17 and I have a few questions.
1) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under sail? 2) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under power? 3) To what degree does the fuel tank get in the way either when under sail or power? 4) Any opinions on gasoline vs propane outboards?
Thanks, Rob
Rob. With your transom, Mk1 version, I recommend the Suzuki 4/6. Why: the cutout limits the width of the outboard and those with the throttle arm to the side are difficult to fit. The Suzuki 4/6 has a more center placed throttle arm. Your unmodified transom is superior to the Mk2 boats and those Mk1s with an owner added bracket. Why: better for weight to be close to the transom v. hanging 1' further aft. Boat sails better! See attached great photo of Larry Yake's M17 with Suzuki on the transom. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ On Wed, May 20, 2020, 8:22 AM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks or the replies so far. I'm frankly on the fence regarding gas vs propane. I'm leaning towards the Mercury 5 HP sail power model, 20" long shaft, mostly because it has reverse on the handle. Is the 20" adequate or is the extra long shaft better?
Dave - I have a 1977 M17 with the cutout. I've attach two photos that I happen to have that show the transom of my actual boat. What is the concern here?
Thanks, Rob
On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 10:17 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Rob:
First a question for you - what year is your M17? There is one issue that relates to the older 'first desk version' Mk1 boats with the outboard cutout in the transom that is different than the second generation Mk2 boats.
A 4HP motor is more than enough for the M17. Sadly there are no more true 4HP motors made - most are now the same as a 6HP with de-rated carbs. This also means the motors weigh more than a true 4HP motor. Weight aft is bad. (Motor I always wish I had was the true 4HP Yamaha.). The new Honda 4/5/6 are excellent but way to heavy. I had a Suzuki 4 (6 is the same motor with external tank and alternator options).
Place your external tank at the aft end of the cockpit footwell. Two reasons: #1 is the aft locker of the Mk2 boats is NOT safe for fuel storage as it is open to the cabin. #2 is the fuel can sitting at the aft end of the cockpit will encourage you to sit at the proper location near the head of the tiller NOT at the back of the cockpit! For most M17s this sitting location is just aft of the cockpit mainsheet floor traveler track (again there are some differences in the boats with traveler placement).
The gas can doesn't get in the way.
Propane has some negatives - mainly fuel tank storage, less range, refilling when cruising and the Lehr build quality is poor. IMO gasoline is still the best bet for a cruiser.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 4:31 AM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm looking at getting an outboard for my M17 and I have a few questions.
1) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under sail? 2) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under power? 3) To what degree does the fuel tank get in the way either when under sail or power? 4) Any opinions on gasoline vs propane outboards?
Thanks, Rob
Rob: Forgot to mention - 20" long shaft is the length you want. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ On Wed, May 20, 2020, 8:37 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Rob.
With your transom, Mk1 version, I recommend the Suzuki 4/6. Why: the cutout limits the width of the outboard and those with the throttle arm to the side are difficult to fit. The Suzuki 4/6 has a more center placed throttle arm.
Your unmodified transom is superior to the Mk2 boats and those Mk1s with an owner added bracket. Why: better for weight to be close to the transom v. hanging 1' further aft. Boat sails better!
See attached great photo of Larry Yake's M17 with Suzuki on the transom.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 8:22 AM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks or the replies so far. I'm frankly on the fence regarding gas vs propane. I'm leaning towards the Mercury 5 HP sail power model, 20" long shaft, mostly because it has reverse on the handle. Is the 20" adequate or is the extra long shaft better?
Dave - I have a 1977 M17 with the cutout. I've attach two photos that I happen to have that show the transom of my actual boat. What is the concern here?
Thanks, Rob
Rob, I too have a Monty 17, 1977 with the cutout. A 5 hp may have a reverse gear. It is heavy and costs more than a 3.5 or a 4. I have a 3.5 Tohatsu on my Monty and it has plenty of push if you aren't trying to water ski with it. What it doesn't have is reverse gear. So far, with a little forethought it hasn't mattered but it is definitely nice to have. My 3.5 will swivel so you can spin it around to gain reverse by using forward gear backwards. Unfortunately that requires a LOT of swing room to avoid cutting a hole in your hull or mangling your rudder. For another reason I mounted mine on a spring loaded outboard motor bracket. It easily lifts out of the water and allows a reboard ladder to be added beneath the port side ourboard cutout. My ladder is ss and with the pull of a velcro strap telescopes four steps down into the water so anybody can step up to that bottom rung to climb aboard. Concerning the ladder I also mounted two rubber blocks on the transom just beneath the pivots built into the ladder such that they tend to hold the ladder slightly out from straight down, this also helps with reboarding. If you go to the Monty owners photo website my boat is listed under the name "AS-IS" and there are plenty of photos there about what I did on my boat. Good luck. On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 10:22 AM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks or the replies so far. I'm frankly on the fence regarding gas vs propane. I'm leaning towards the Mercury 5 HP sail power model, 20" long shaft, mostly because it has reverse on the handle. Is the 20" adequate or is the extra long shaft better?
Dave - I have a 1977 M17 with the cutout. I've attach two photos that I happen to have that show the transom of my actual boat. What is the concern here?
Thanks, Rob
On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 10:17 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Rob:
First a question for you - what year is your M17? There is one issue that relates to the older 'first desk version' Mk1 boats with the outboard cutout in the transom that is different than the second generation Mk2 boats.
A 4HP motor is more than enough for the M17. Sadly there are no more true 4HP motors made - most are now the same as a 6HP with de-rated carbs. This also means the motors weigh more than a true 4HP motor. Weight aft is bad. (Motor I always wish I had was the true 4HP Yamaha.). The new Honda 4/5/6 are excellent but way to heavy. I had a Suzuki 4 (6 is the same motor with external tank and alternator options).
Place your external tank at the aft end of the cockpit footwell. Two reasons: #1 is the aft locker of the Mk2 boats is NOT safe for fuel storage as it is open to the cabin. #2 is the fuel can sitting at the aft end of the cockpit will encourage you to sit at the proper location near the head of the tiller NOT at the back of the cockpit! For most M17s this sitting location is just aft of the cockpit mainsheet floor traveler track (again there are some differences in the boats with traveler placement).
The gas can doesn't get in the way.
Propane has some negatives - mainly fuel tank storage, less range, refilling when cruising and the Lehr build quality is poor. IMO gasoline is still the best bet for a cruiser.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 4:31 AM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm looking at getting an outboard for my M17 and I have a few questions.
1) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under sail? 2) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under power? 3) To what degree does the fuel tank get in the way either when under sail or power? 4) Any opinions on gasoline vs propane outboards?
Thanks, Rob
Hey Rob... How did you make the "springline" cleat pictured on the toe rail of your Monty? Tim -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces+tim-brown=sbcglobal.net@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of Thomas Buzzi Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 8:43 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: outboard questions Rob, I too have a Monty 17, 1977 with the cutout. A 5 hp may have a reverse gear. It is heavy and costs more than a 3.5 or a 4. I have a 3.5 Tohatsu on my Monty and it has plenty of push if you aren't trying to water ski with it. What it doesn't have is reverse gear. So far, with a little forethought it hasn't mattered but it is definitely nice to have. My 3.5 will swivel so you can spin it around to gain reverse by using forward gear backwards. Unfortunately that requires a LOT of swing room to avoid cutting a hole in your hull or mangling your rudder. For another reason I mounted mine on a spring loaded outboard motor bracket. It easily lifts out of the water and allows a reboard ladder to be added beneath the port side ourboard cutout. My ladder is ss and with the pull of a velcro strap telescopes four steps down into the water so anybody can step up to that bottom rung to climb aboard. Concerning the ladder I also mounted two rubber blocks on the transom just beneath the pivots built into the ladder such that they tend to hold the ladder slightly out from straight down, this also helps with reboarding. If you go to the Monty owners photo website my boat is listed under the name "AS-IS" and there are plenty of photos there about what I did on my boat. Good luck. On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 10:22 AM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks or the replies so far. I'm frankly on the fence regarding gas vs propane. I'm leaning towards the Mercury 5 HP sail power model, 20" long shaft, mostly because it has reverse on the handle. Is the 20" adequate or is the extra long shaft better?
Dave - I have a 1977 M17 with the cutout. I've attach two photos that I happen to have that show the transom of my actual boat. What is the concern here?
Thanks, Rob
On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 10:17 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Rob:
First a question for you - what year is your M17? There is one issue that relates to the older 'first desk version' Mk1 boats with the outboard cutout in the transom that is different than the second generation Mk2 boats.
A 4HP motor is more than enough for the M17. Sadly there are no more true 4HP motors made - most are now the same as a 6HP with de-rated carbs. This also means the motors weigh more than a true 4HP motor. Weight aft is bad. (Motor I always wish I had was the true 4HP Yamaha.). The new Honda 4/5/6 are excellent but way to heavy. I had a Suzuki 4 (6 is the same motor with external tank and alternator options).
Place your external tank at the aft end of the cockpit footwell. Two reasons: #1 is the aft locker of the Mk2 boats is NOT safe for fuel storage as it is open to the cabin. #2 is the fuel can sitting at the aft end of the cockpit will encourage you to sit at the proper location near the head of the tiller NOT at the back of the cockpit! For most M17s this sitting location is just aft of the cockpit mainsheet floor traveler track (again there are some differences in the boats with traveler placement).
The gas can doesn't get in the way.
Propane has some negatives - mainly fuel tank storage, less range, refilling when cruising and the Lehr build quality is poor. IMO gasoline is still the best bet for a cruiser.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 4:31 AM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm looking at getting an outboard for my M17 and I have a few questions.
1) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under sail? 2) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under power? 3) To what degree does the fuel tank get in the way either when under sail or power? 4) Any opinions on gasoline vs propane outboards?
Thanks, Rob
Is someone making a 20" shaft propane now? I looked into the Lehr models but they only had short shaft a couple years ago. They are a bit heavier for same HP as gas motors (2.3 and 3.5 hp gas that is - as mentioned if you go to 4 hp you have the weight of a 6 hp). More shortly re my setup... cheers, John On 5/20/20 8:21 AM, Rob Bultman wrote:
Thanks or the replies so far. I'm frankly on the fence regarding gas vs propane. I'm leaning towards the Mercury 5 HP sail power model, 20" long shaft, mostly because it has reverse on the handle. Is the 20" adequate or is the extra long shaft better?
Dave - I have a 1977 M17 with the cutout. I've attach two photos that I happen to have that show the transom of my actual boat. What is the concern here?
Thanks, Rob
On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 10:17 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Rob:
First a question for you - what year is your M17? There is one issue that relates to the older 'first desk version' Mk1 boats with the outboard cutout in the transom that is different than the second generation Mk2 boats.
A 4HP motor is more than enough for the M17. Sadly there are no more true 4HP motors made - most are now the same as a 6HP with de-rated carbs. This also means the motors weigh more than a true 4HP motor. Weight aft is bad. (Motor I always wish I had was the true 4HP Yamaha.). The new Honda 4/5/6 are excellent but way to heavy. I had a Suzuki 4 (6 is the same motor with external tank and alternator options).
Place your external tank at the aft end of the cockpit footwell. Two reasons: #1 is the aft locker of the Mk2 boats is NOT safe for fuel storage as it is open to the cabin. #2 is the fuel can sitting at the aft end of the cockpit will encourage you to sit at the proper location near the head of the tiller NOT at the back of the cockpit! For most M17s this sitting location is just aft of the cockpit mainsheet floor traveler track (again there are some differences in the boats with traveler placement).
The gas can doesn't get in the way.
Propane has some negatives - mainly fuel tank storage, less range, refilling when cruising and the Lehr build quality is poor. IMO gasoline is still the best bet for a cruiser.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 4:31 AM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm looking at getting an outboard for my M17 and I have a few questions.
1) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under sail? 2) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under power? 3) To what degree does the fuel tank get in the way either when under sail or power? 4) Any opinions on gasoline vs propane outboards?
Thanks, Rob
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
John, both Mercury and Tohatsu are making 20" propane models. On Wed, May 20, 2020, 12:55 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Is someone making a 20" shaft propane now? I looked into the Lehr models but they only had short shaft a couple years ago. They are a bit heavier for same HP as gas motors (2.3 and 3.5 hp gas that is - as mentioned if you go to 4 hp you have the weight of a 6 hp).
More shortly re my setup...
cheers, John
On 5/20/20 8:21 AM, Rob Bultman wrote:
Thanks or the replies so far. I'm frankly on the fence regarding gas vs propane. I'm leaning towards the Mercury 5 HP sail power model, 20" long shaft, mostly because it has reverse on the handle. Is the 20" adequate or is the extra long shaft better?
Dave - I have a 1977 M17 with the cutout. I've attach two photos that I happen to have that show the transom of my actual boat. What is the concern here?
Thanks, Rob
On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 10:17 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Rob:
First a question for you - what year is your M17? There is one issue that relates to the older 'first desk version' Mk1 boats with the outboard cutout in the transom that is different than the second generation Mk2 boats.
A 4HP motor is more than enough for the M17. Sadly there are no more true 4HP motors made - most are now the same as a 6HP with de-rated carbs. This also means the motors weigh more than a true 4HP motor. Weight aft is bad. (Motor I always wish I had was the true 4HP Yamaha.). The new Honda 4/5/6 are excellent but way to heavy. I had a Suzuki 4 (6 is the same motor with external tank and alternator options).
Place your external tank at the aft end of the cockpit footwell. Two reasons: #1 is the aft locker of the Mk2 boats is NOT safe for fuel storage as it is open to the cabin. #2 is the fuel can sitting at the aft end of the cockpit will encourage you to sit at the proper location near the head of the tiller NOT at the back of the cockpit! For most M17s this sitting location is just aft of the cockpit mainsheet floor traveler track (again there are some differences in the boats with traveler placement).
The gas can doesn't get in the way.
Propane has some negatives - mainly fuel tank storage, less range, refilling when cruising and the Lehr build quality is poor. IMO gasoline is still the best bet for a cruiser.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 4:31 AM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm looking at getting an outboard for my M17 and I have a few questions.
1) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under sail? 2) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under power? 3) To what degree does the fuel tank get in the way either when under sail or power? 4) Any opinions on gasoline vs propane outboards?
Thanks, Rob
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Tim, you will have to forgive me. The boat is rigged as I received from the previous owner, and being new to sailing I don't know what a springline cleat is! On Wed, May 20, 2020, 1:16 PM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
John, both Mercury and Tohatsu are making 20" propane models.
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 12:55 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Is someone making a 20" shaft propane now? I looked into the Lehr models but they only had short shaft a couple years ago. They are a bit heavier for same HP as gas motors (2.3 and 3.5 hp gas that is - as mentioned if you go to 4 hp you have the weight of a 6 hp).
More shortly re my setup...
cheers, John
On 5/20/20 8:21 AM, Rob Bultman wrote:
Thanks or the replies so far. I'm frankly on the fence regarding gas vs propane. I'm leaning towards the Mercury 5 HP sail power model, 20" long shaft, mostly because it has reverse on the handle. Is the 20" adequate or is the extra long shaft better?
Dave - I have a 1977 M17 with the cutout. I've attach two photos that I happen to have that show the transom of my actual boat. What is the concern here?
Thanks, Rob
On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 10:17 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Rob:
First a question for you - what year is your M17? There is one issue that relates to the older 'first desk version' Mk1 boats with the outboard cutout in the transom that is different than the second generation Mk2 boats.
A 4HP motor is more than enough for the M17. Sadly there are no more true 4HP motors made - most are now the same as a 6HP with de-rated carbs. This also means the motors weigh more than a true 4HP motor. Weight aft is bad. (Motor I always wish I had was the true 4HP Yamaha.). The new Honda 4/5/6 are excellent but way to heavy. I had a Suzuki 4 (6 is the same motor with external tank and alternator options).
Place your external tank at the aft end of the cockpit footwell. Two reasons: #1 is the aft locker of the Mk2 boats is NOT safe for fuel storage as it is open to the cabin. #2 is the fuel can sitting at the aft end of the cockpit will encourage you to sit at the proper location near the head of the tiller NOT at the back of the cockpit! For most M17s this sitting location is just aft of the cockpit mainsheet floor traveler track (again there are some differences in the boats with traveler placement).
The gas can doesn't get in the way.
Propane has some negatives - mainly fuel tank storage, less range, refilling when cruising and the Lehr build quality is poor. IMO gasoline is still the best bet for a cruiser.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 4:31 AM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm looking at getting an outboard for my M17 and I have a few questions.
1) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under sail? 2) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under power? 3) To what degree does the fuel tank get in the way either when under sail or power? 4) Any opinions on gasoline vs propane outboards?
Thanks, Rob
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Rob... It is the cleat you have bolted to the toe rail. It looks like the previous owner fabricated it from the picture. I have a jib furler line that I would like to cleat about where that cleat seems to be located on your boat. Tim -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Rob Bultman Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 10:19 AM To: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: outboard questions Tim, you will have to forgive me. The boat is rigged as I received from the previous owner, and being new to sailing I don't know what a springline cleat is! On Wed, May 20, 2020, 1:16 PM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
John, both Mercury and Tohatsu are making 20" propane models.
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 12:55 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Is someone making a 20" shaft propane now? I looked into the Lehr models but they only had short shaft a couple years ago. They are a bit heavier for same HP as gas motors (2.3 and 3.5 hp gas that is - as mentioned if you go to 4 hp you have the weight of a 6 hp).
More shortly re my setup...
cheers, John
On 5/20/20 8:21 AM, Rob Bultman wrote:
Thanks or the replies so far. I'm frankly on the fence regarding gas vs propane. I'm leaning towards the Mercury 5 HP sail power model, 20" long shaft, mostly because it has reverse on the handle. Is the 20" adequate or is the extra long shaft better?
Dave - I have a 1977 M17 with the cutout. I've attach two photos that I happen to have that show the transom of my actual boat. What is the concern here?
Thanks, Rob
On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 10:17 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Rob:
First a question for you - what year is your M17? There is one issue that relates to the older 'first desk version' Mk1 boats with the outboard cutout in the transom that is different than the second generation Mk2 boats.
A 4HP motor is more than enough for the M17. Sadly there are no more true 4HP motors made - most are now the same as a 6HP with de-rated carbs. This also means the motors weigh more than a true 4HP motor. Weight aft is bad. (Motor I always wish I had was the true 4HP Yamaha.). The new Honda 4/5/6 are excellent but way to heavy. I had a Suzuki 4 (6 is the same motor with external tank and alternator options).
Place your external tank at the aft end of the cockpit footwell. Two reasons: #1 is the aft locker of the Mk2 boats is NOT safe for fuel storage as it is open to the cabin. #2 is the fuel can sitting at the aft end of the cockpit will encourage you to sit at the proper location near the head of the tiller NOT at the back of the cockpit! For most M17s this sitting location is just aft of the cockpit mainsheet floor traveler track (again there are some differences in the boats with traveler placement).
The gas can doesn't get in the way.
Propane has some negatives - mainly fuel tank storage, less range, refilling when cruising and the Lehr build quality is poor. IMO gasoline is still the best bet for a cruiser.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 4:31 AM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm looking at getting an outboard for my M17 and I have a few questions.
1) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under sail? 2) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under power? 3) To what degree does the fuel tank get in the way either when under sail or power? 4) Any opinions on gasoline vs propane outboards?
Thanks, Rob
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I keep my 3 gal tank in the starboard locker. After checking to make sure it did not leak fumes into the cabin I put a large plastic vent in the cockpit wall. I leave the fuel line coiled inside the locker and pull it out when needed. A split pool noodle on the front lip of the locker keeps the lid from closing down on the hose. If I was in a location where I used the motor more frequently I would run the fuel line permanently through a dedicated hole. Henry Monita On Wed, May 20, 2020, 7:24 PM TIm Brown <tim-brown@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Rob...
It is the cleat you have bolted to the toe rail. It looks like the previous owner fabricated it from the picture. I have a jib furler line that I would like to cleat about where that cleat seems to be located on your boat.
Tim
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Rob Bultman Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 10:19 AM To: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: outboard questions
Tim, you will have to forgive me. The boat is rigged as I received from the previous owner, and being new to sailing I don't know what a springline cleat is!
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 1:16 PM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
John, both Mercury and Tohatsu are making 20" propane models.
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 12:55 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Is someone making a 20" shaft propane now? I looked into the Lehr models but they only had short shaft a couple years ago. They are a bit heavier for same HP as gas motors (2.3 and 3.5 hp gas that is - as mentioned if you go to 4 hp you have the weight of a 6 hp).
More shortly re my setup...
cheers, John
On 5/20/20 8:21 AM, Rob Bultman wrote:
Thanks or the replies so far. I'm frankly on the fence regarding gas vs propane. I'm leaning towards the Mercury 5 HP sail power model, 20" long shaft, mostly because it has reverse on the handle. Is the 20" adequate or is the extra long shaft better?
Dave - I have a 1977 M17 with the cutout. I've attach two photos that I happen to have that show the transom of my actual boat. What is the concern here?
Thanks, Rob
On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 10:17 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Rob:
First a question for you - what year is your M17? There is one issue that relates to the older 'first desk version' Mk1 boats with the outboard cutout in the transom that is different than the second generation Mk2 boats.
A 4HP motor is more than enough for the M17. Sadly there are no more true 4HP motors made - most are now the same as a 6HP with de-rated carbs. This also means the motors weigh more than a true 4HP motor. Weight aft is bad. (Motor I always wish I had was the true 4HP Yamaha.). The new Honda 4/5/6 are excellent but way to heavy. I had a Suzuki 4 (6 is the same motor with external tank and alternator options).
Place your external tank at the aft end of the cockpit footwell. Two reasons: #1 is the aft locker of the Mk2 boats is NOT safe for fuel storage as it is open to the cabin. #2 is the fuel can sitting at the aft end of the cockpit will encourage you to sit at the proper location near the head of the tiller NOT at the back of the cockpit! For most M17s this sitting location is just aft of the cockpit mainsheet floor traveler track (again there are some differences in the boats with traveler placement).
The gas can doesn't get in the way.
Propane has some negatives - mainly fuel tank storage, less range, refilling when cruising and the Lehr build quality is poor. IMO gasoline is still the best bet for a cruiser.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 4:31 AM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm looking at getting an outboard for my M17 and I have a few questions.
1) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under sail? 2) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under power? 3) To what degree does the fuel tank get in the way either when under sail or power? 4) Any opinions on gasoline vs propane outboards?
Thanks, Rob
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Yeh Henry your pre-82/83 Mk1 has that deeper separate from the cabin starboard locker that the Mk2s don't. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ On Wed, May 20, 2020, 6:40 PM Henry Rodriguez <heinzir@gmail.com> wrote:
I keep my 3 gal tank in the starboard locker. After checking to make sure it did not leak fumes into the cabin I put a large plastic vent in the cockpit wall. I leave the fuel line coiled inside the locker and pull it out when needed. A split pool noodle on the front lip of the locker keeps the lid from closing down on the hose. If I was in a location where I used the motor more frequently I would run the fuel line permanently through a dedicated hole.
Henry Monita
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 7:24 PM TIm Brown <tim-brown@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Rob...
It is the cleat you have bolted to the toe rail. It looks like the previous owner fabricated it from the picture. I have a jib furler line that I would like to cleat about where that cleat seems to be located on your boat.
Tim
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Rob Bultman Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 10:19 AM To: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: outboard questions
Tim, you will have to forgive me. The boat is rigged as I received from the previous owner, and being new to sailing I don't know what a springline cleat is!
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 1:16 PM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
John, both Mercury and Tohatsu are making 20" propane models.
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 12:55 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Is someone making a 20" shaft propane now? I looked into the Lehr models but they only had short shaft a couple years ago. They are a bit heavier for same HP as gas motors (2.3 and 3.5 hp gas that is - as mentioned if you go to 4 hp you have the weight of a 6 hp).
More shortly re my setup...
cheers, John
On 5/20/20 8:21 AM, Rob Bultman wrote:
Thanks or the replies so far. I'm frankly on the fence regarding gas vs propane. I'm leaning towards the Mercury 5 HP sail power model, 20" long shaft, mostly because it has reverse on the handle. Is the 20" adequate or is the extra long shaft better?
Dave - I have a 1977 M17 with the cutout. I've attach two photos that I happen to have that show the transom of my actual boat. What is the concern here?
Thanks, Rob
On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 10:17 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Rob:
First a question for you - what year is your M17? There is one issue that relates to the older 'first desk version' Mk1 boats with the outboard cutout in the transom that is different than the second generation Mk2 boats.
A 4HP motor is more than enough for the M17. Sadly there are no more true 4HP motors made - most are now the same as a 6HP with de-rated carbs. This also means the motors weigh more than a true 4HP motor. Weight aft is bad. (Motor I always wish I had was the true 4HP Yamaha.). The new Honda 4/5/6 are excellent but way to heavy. I had a Suzuki 4 (6 is the same motor with external tank and alternator options).
Place your external tank at the aft end of the cockpit footwell. Two reasons: #1 is the aft locker of the Mk2 boats is NOT safe for fuel storage as it is open to the cabin. #2 is the fuel can sitting at the aft end of the cockpit will encourage you to sit at the proper location near the head of the tiller NOT at the back of the cockpit! For most M17s this sitting location is just aft of the cockpit mainsheet floor traveler track (again there are some differences in the boats with traveler placement).
The gas can doesn't get in the way.
Propane has some negatives - mainly fuel tank storage, less range, refilling when cruising and the Lehr build quality is poor. IMO gasoline is still the best bet for a cruiser.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 4:31 AM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm looking at getting an outboard for my M17 and I have a few questions. > > 1) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when > you are > under sail? > 2) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when > you are > under power? > 3) To what degree does the fuel tank get in the way either when > under sail > or power? > 4) Any opinions on gasoline vs propane outboards? > > Thanks, > Rob >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Forgot this part of the question... I keep a small gas can at stern end of cockpit footwell, if I'm just lake sailing. Totally out of the way there, neither skipper nor passengers if any will be sitting that far aft. I have a 3-gallon that I haven't had need for yet but would put it in same location. My M17 is early version so has no sealed locker aft so can't put it in there. There was a ledge & cover/seat added to the rear of the cockpit seats on the boat I acquired - wood strips on sides & rear & piece of ply sitting on those, flush with seats. Paint was peeling etc. so I pulled them off, but will put them back eventually in nicer shape. The ledge/seat provides visual and sun cover for the gas can or tank. cheers, John On 5/20/20 5:41 PM, Henry Rodriguez wrote:
I keep my 3 gal tank in the starboard locker. After checking to make sure it did not leak fumes into the cabin I put a large plastic vent in the cockpit wall. I leave the fuel line coiled inside the locker and pull it out when needed. A split pool noodle on the front lip of the locker keeps the lid from closing down on the hose. If I was in a location where I used the motor more frequently I would run the fuel line permanently through a dedicated hole.
Henry Monita
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 7:24 PM TIm Brown <tim-brown@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Rob...
It is the cleat you have bolted to the toe rail. It looks like the previous owner fabricated it from the picture. I have a jib furler line that I would like to cleat about where that cleat seems to be located on your boat.
Tim
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Rob Bultman Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 10:19 AM To: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: outboard questions
Tim, you will have to forgive me. The boat is rigged as I received from the previous owner, and being new to sailing I don't know what a springline cleat is!
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 1:16 PM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
John, both Mercury and Tohatsu are making 20" propane models.
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 12:55 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Is someone making a 20" shaft propane now? I looked into the Lehr models but they only had short shaft a couple years ago. They are a bit heavier for same HP as gas motors (2.3 and 3.5 hp gas that is - as mentioned if you go to 4 hp you have the weight of a 6 hp).
More shortly re my setup...
cheers, John
On 5/20/20 8:21 AM, Rob Bultman wrote:
Thanks or the replies so far. I'm frankly on the fence regarding gas vs propane. I'm leaning towards the Mercury 5 HP sail power model, 20" long shaft, mostly because it has reverse on the handle. Is the 20" adequate or is the extra long shaft better?
Dave - I have a 1977 M17 with the cutout. I've attach two photos that I happen to have that show the transom of my actual boat. What is the concern here?
Thanks, Rob
On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 10:17 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Rob:
First a question for you - what year is your M17? There is one issue that relates to the older 'first desk version' Mk1 boats with the outboard cutout in the transom that is different than the second generation Mk2 boats.
A 4HP motor is more than enough for the M17. Sadly there are no more true 4HP motors made - most are now the same as a 6HP with de-rated carbs. This also means the motors weigh more than a true 4HP motor. Weight aft is bad. (Motor I always wish I had was the true 4HP Yamaha.). The new Honda 4/5/6 are excellent but way to heavy. I had a Suzuki 4 (6 is the same motor with external tank and alternator options).
Place your external tank at the aft end of the cockpit footwell. Two reasons: #1 is the aft locker of the Mk2 boats is NOT safe for fuel storage as it is open to the cabin. #2 is the fuel can sitting at the aft end of the cockpit will encourage you to sit at the proper location near the head of the tiller NOT at the back of the cockpit! For most M17s this sitting location is just aft of the cockpit mainsheet floor traveler track (again there are some differences in the boats with traveler placement).
The gas can doesn't get in the way.
Propane has some negatives - mainly fuel tank storage, less range, refilling when cruising and the Lehr build quality is poor. IMO gasoline is still the best bet for a cruiser.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 4:31 AM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm looking at getting an outboard for my M17 and I have a few questions. > > 1) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when > you are > under sail? > 2) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when > you are > under power? > 3) To what degree does the fuel tank get in the way either when > under sail > or power? > 4) Any opinions on gasoline vs propane outboards? > > Thanks, > Rob >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Tim, I only count 5 cleats on the boat, one on the bow and two on the top of the cockpit coaming (if I am using the term correctly) on either side of the boat, one just aft of the winch and one towards the stern. I assumed that the cleats just aft of the winches were meant to secure the jib sheet on a particular point of sail. Other boats I have sailed typically have a v-cleat or cam cleat instead of a "yacht" cleat for securing a jib sheet. There are two pulleys (fairleads?) on each side of the boat, one about even with the rear of the cabin and one about even with the cleat just aft of the winch. These are tied to the perforated toe rail with 3 strands of small line. I assumed that the forward ones were used to lead the jib sheet towards the winches, which is how I planned to use them. I'm not sure what the rear ones were used for. The attached photo shows the positions of the two pulleys and cleat on the port side. Regards, Rob On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 8:23 PM TIm Brown <tim-brown@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Rob...
It is the cleat you have bolted to the toe rail. It looks like the previous owner fabricated it from the picture. I have a jib furler line that I would like to cleat about where that cleat seems to be located on your boat.
Tim
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Rob Bultman Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 10:19 AM To: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: outboard questions
Tim, you will have to forgive me. The boat is rigged as I received from the previous owner, and being new to sailing I don't know what a springline cleat is!
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 1:16 PM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
John, both Mercury and Tohatsu are making 20" propane models.
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 12:55 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Is someone making a 20" shaft propane now? I looked into the Lehr models but they only had short shaft a couple years ago. They are a bit heavier for same HP as gas motors (2.3 and 3.5 hp gas that is - as mentioned if you go to 4 hp you have the weight of a 6 hp).
More shortly re my setup...
cheers, John
On 5/20/20 8:21 AM, Rob Bultman wrote:
Thanks or the replies so far. I'm frankly on the fence regarding gas vs propane. I'm leaning towards the Mercury 5 HP sail power model, 20" long shaft, mostly because it has reverse on the handle. Is the 20" adequate or is the extra long shaft better?
Dave - I have a 1977 M17 with the cutout. I've attach two photos that I happen to have that show the transom of my actual boat. What is the concern here?
Thanks, Rob
On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 10:17 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Rob:
First a question for you - what year is your M17? There is one issue that relates to the older 'first desk version' Mk1 boats with the outboard cutout in the transom that is different than the second generation Mk2 boats.
A 4HP motor is more than enough for the M17. Sadly there are no more true 4HP motors made - most are now the same as a 6HP with de-rated carbs. This also means the motors weigh more than a true 4HP motor. Weight aft is bad. (Motor I always wish I had was the true 4HP Yamaha.). The new Honda 4/5/6 are excellent but way to heavy. I had a Suzuki 4 (6 is the same motor with external tank and alternator options).
Place your external tank at the aft end of the cockpit footwell. Two reasons: #1 is the aft locker of the Mk2 boats is NOT safe for fuel storage as it is open to the cabin. #2 is the fuel can sitting at the aft end of the cockpit will encourage you to sit at the proper location near the head of the tiller NOT at the back of the cockpit! For most M17s this sitting location is just aft of the cockpit mainsheet floor traveler track (again there are some differences in the boats with traveler placement).
The gas can doesn't get in the way.
Propane has some negatives - mainly fuel tank storage, less range, refilling when cruising and the Lehr build quality is poor. IMO gasoline is still the best bet for a cruiser.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 4:31 AM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm looking at getting an outboard for my M17 and I have a few questions.
1) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under sail? 2) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under power? 3) To what degree does the fuel tank get in the way either when under sail or power? 4) Any opinions on gasoline vs propane outboards?
Thanks, Rob
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
With the photo... On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 10:31 PM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
Tim,
I only count 5 cleats on the boat, one on the bow and two on the top of the cockpit coaming (if I am using the term correctly) on either side of the boat, one just aft of the winch and one towards the stern. I assumed that the cleats just aft of the winches were meant to secure the jib sheet on a particular point of sail. Other boats I have sailed typically have a v-cleat or cam cleat instead of a "yacht" cleat for securing a jib sheet.
There are two pulleys (fairleads?) on each side of the boat, one about even with the rear of the cabin and one about even with the cleat just aft of the winch. These are tied to the perforated toe rail with 3 strands of small line. I assumed that the forward ones were used to lead the jib sheet towards the winches, which is how I planned to use them. I'm not sure what the rear ones were used for.
The attached photo shows the positions of the two pulleys and cleat on the port side.
Regards, Rob
On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 8:23 PM TIm Brown <tim-brown@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Rob...
It is the cleat you have bolted to the toe rail. It looks like the previous owner fabricated it from the picture. I have a jib furler line that I would like to cleat about where that cleat seems to be located on your boat.
Tim
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Rob Bultman Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 10:19 AM To: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: outboard questions
Tim, you will have to forgive me. The boat is rigged as I received from the previous owner, and being new to sailing I don't know what a springline cleat is!
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 1:16 PM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
John, both Mercury and Tohatsu are making 20" propane models.
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 12:55 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Is someone making a 20" shaft propane now? I looked into the Lehr models but they only had short shaft a couple years ago. They are a bit heavier for same HP as gas motors (2.3 and 3.5 hp gas that is - as mentioned if you go to 4 hp you have the weight of a 6 hp).
More shortly re my setup...
cheers, John
On 5/20/20 8:21 AM, Rob Bultman wrote:
Thanks or the replies so far. I'm frankly on the fence regarding gas vs propane. I'm leaning towards the Mercury 5 HP sail power model, 20" long shaft, mostly because it has reverse on the handle. Is the 20" adequate or is the extra long shaft better?
Dave - I have a 1977 M17 with the cutout. I've attach two photos that I happen to have that show the transom of my actual boat. What is the concern here?
Thanks, Rob
On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 10:17 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Rob:
First a question for you - what year is your M17? There is one issue that relates to the older 'first desk version' Mk1 boats with the outboard cutout in the transom that is different than the second generation Mk2 boats.
A 4HP motor is more than enough for the M17. Sadly there are no more true 4HP motors made - most are now the same as a 6HP with de-rated carbs. This also means the motors weigh more than a true 4HP motor. Weight aft is bad. (Motor I always wish I had was the true 4HP Yamaha.). The new Honda 4/5/6 are excellent but way to heavy. I had a Suzuki 4 (6 is the same motor with external tank and alternator options).
Place your external tank at the aft end of the cockpit footwell. Two reasons: #1 is the aft locker of the Mk2 boats is NOT safe for fuel storage as it is open to the cabin. #2 is the fuel can sitting at the aft end of the cockpit will encourage you to sit at the proper location near the head of the tiller NOT at the back of the cockpit! For most M17s this sitting location is just aft of the cockpit mainsheet floor traveler track (again there are some differences in the boats with traveler placement).
The gas can doesn't get in the way.
Propane has some negatives - mainly fuel tank storage, less range, refilling when cruising and the Lehr build quality is poor. IMO gasoline is still the best bet for a cruiser.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 4:31 AM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm looking at getting an outboard for my M17 and I have a few questions. > > 1) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when > you are > under sail? > 2) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when > you are > under power? > 3) To what degree does the fuel tank get in the way either when > under sail > or power? > 4) Any opinions on gasoline vs propane outboards? > > Thanks, > Rob >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Older M17s have a jam cleat behind the winch to hold the sheet; newer ones have a clamcleat. A few of us have customized setups - mine came with the original jam cleats, and also cam cleats further aft (too far aft) on the coaming. I've changed that already but will be changing it again soon (see further below). My guess from your picture is that the jib sheet was led thru the forward block (fancy nautical term for pulley :-), then to the aft one, then back up to the winch. From the look of it, leading the sheet from the forward block direct to the winch would have it chafing on the cockpit coaming...which you generally don't want to do. For the port winch anyhow, which leads from the outside. But on the other side, the winch leads from the other side and coming from the rear block (or the front block) might chafe the coaming. Also, the forward block could be positioned for a smaller jib and the aft block a larger jib, either one going direct to winch (chafing be hanged...). My M17 has the aluminum toe rail also, but came with a pair of clip-on swivel blocks for jib sheet. So they could be moved easily to different holes to suit jib size/sheet angle. Since I switched to a cruising cut furling jib - higher clew - my jib sheet blocks need to be further back on the rail to get the right angle on the jib sheet. Last season I used a pair of blocks on each side, somewhat like your pic but clip-on swivel blocks. Sheet went to aft block, then to forward block, then to winch (to keep sheet from crossing over itself on way from aft block to winch, also to keep it off the coaming). I will be changing that as soon as I have time, to run the sheet aft to a block attached to the toe rail with a soft shackle (instead of metal swivel clip), then direct to a swiveling eye/cam cleat on the coaming. I never use the winches to actually trim the sail, so they are just a hassle to wrap and release with every tack. I moved the fixed cam cleats forward to a more usable position and with a better angle for set/release...better but still not great. New setup will be easier to cleat/uncleat, easier to trim, quicker/easier tacking, less friction overall, and with the soft shackles no thrashing of metal swivel clips on metal rail when jib sheets flap around when tacking. Henry's Monita has this setup or close to it, I had posted something last year on thinking about doing this and he'd already done it...thanks for testing it out Henry! :-) cheers, John On 5/20/20 7:31 PM, Rob Bultman wrote:
With the photo...
On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 10:31 PM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
Tim,
I only count 5 cleats on the boat, one on the bow and two on the top of the cockpit coaming (if I am using the term correctly) on either side of the boat, one just aft of the winch and one towards the stern. I assumed that the cleats just aft of the winches were meant to secure the jib sheet on a particular point of sail. Other boats I have sailed typically have a v-cleat or cam cleat instead of a "yacht" cleat for securing a jib sheet.
There are two pulleys (fairleads?) on each side of the boat, one about even with the rear of the cabin and one about even with the cleat just aft of the winch. These are tied to the perforated toe rail with 3 strands of small line. I assumed that the forward ones were used to lead the jib sheet towards the winches, which is how I planned to use them. I'm not sure what the rear ones were used for.
The attached photo shows the positions of the two pulleys and cleat on the port side.
Regards, Rob
On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 8:23 PM TIm Brown <tim-brown@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Rob...
It is the cleat you have bolted to the toe rail. It looks like the previous owner fabricated it from the picture. I have a jib furler line that I would like to cleat about where that cleat seems to be located on your boat.
Tim
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Rob Bultman Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 10:19 AM To: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: outboard questions
Tim, you will have to forgive me. The boat is rigged as I received from the previous owner, and being new to sailing I don't know what a springline cleat is!
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 1:16 PM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
John, both Mercury and Tohatsu are making 20" propane models.
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 12:55 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Is someone making a 20" shaft propane now? I looked into the Lehr models but they only had short shaft a couple years ago. They are a bit heavier for same HP as gas motors (2.3 and 3.5 hp gas that is - as mentioned if you go to 4 hp you have the weight of a 6 hp).
More shortly re my setup...
cheers, John
On 5/20/20 8:21 AM, Rob Bultman wrote:
Thanks or the replies so far. I'm frankly on the fence regarding gas vs propane. I'm leaning towards the Mercury 5 HP sail power model, 20" long shaft, mostly because it has reverse on the handle. Is the 20" adequate or is the extra long shaft better?
Dave - I have a 1977 M17 with the cutout. I've attach two photos that I happen to have that show the transom of my actual boat. What is the concern here?
Thanks, Rob
On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 10:17 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rob: > > First a question for you - what year is your M17? There is one > issue that > relates to the older 'first desk version' Mk1 boats with the > outboard cutout in the transom that is different than the second > generation Mk2 boats. > > A 4HP motor is more than enough for the M17. Sadly there are no > more true > 4HP motors made - most are now the same as a 6HP with de-rated carbs. This > also means the motors weigh more than a true 4HP motor. Weight > aft is bad. (Motor I always wish I had was the true 4HP Yamaha.). > The new Honda > 4/5/6 are excellent but way to heavy. I had a Suzuki 4 (6 is the > same motor with external tank and alternator options). > > Place your external tank at the aft end of the cockpit footwell. > Two > reasons: #1 is the aft locker of the Mk2 boats is NOT safe for > fuel storage > as it is open to the cabin. #2 is the fuel can sitting at the aft > end of > the cockpit will encourage you to sit at the proper location near > the head > of the tiller NOT at the back of the cockpit! For most M17s this sitting > location is just aft of the cockpit mainsheet floor traveler track (again > there are some differences in the boats with traveler placement). > > The gas can doesn't get in the way. > > Propane has some negatives - mainly fuel tank storage, less range, > refilling when cruising and the Lehr build quality is poor. IMO gasoline > is still the best bet for a cruiser. > > > :: Dave Scobie > :: M6'8" #650 > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ > > > On Wed, May 20, 2020, 4:31 AM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I'm looking at getting an outboard for my M17 and I have a few questions. >> >> 1) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when >> you are >> under sail? >> 2) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when >> you are >> under power? >> 3) To what degree does the fuel tank get in the way either when >> under > sail >> or power? >> 4) Any opinions on gasoline vs propane outboards? >> >> Thanks, >> Rob >> >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
The forward blocks are in approximately the correct position for jib sheet leads. The aft blocks are in approximately the correct position for genoa sheet leads. If you ever fit a roller furling genoa, you will want more adjustability than that. I use one block per side with a snap shackle that allows me to adjust the lead from hole to hole along the toe rail. -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of Rob Bultman Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 10:32 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: outboard questions With the photo... On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 10:31 PM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
Tim,
I only count 5 cleats on the boat, one on the bow and two on the top of the cockpit coaming (if I am using the term correctly) on either side of the boat, one just aft of the winch and one towards the stern. I assumed that the cleats just aft of the winches were meant to secure the jib sheet on a particular point of sail. Other boats I have sailed typically have a v-cleat or cam cleat instead of a "yacht" cleat for securing a jib sheet.
There are two pulleys (fairleads?) on each side of the boat, one about even with the rear of the cabin and one about even with the cleat just aft of the winch. These are tied to the perforated toe rail with 3 strands of small line. I assumed that the forward ones were used to lead the jib sheet towards the winches, which is how I planned to use them. I'm not sure what the rear ones were used for.
The attached photo shows the positions of the two pulleys and cleat on the port side.
Regards, Rob
On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 8:23 PM TIm Brown <tim-brown@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Rob...
It is the cleat you have bolted to the toe rail. It looks like the previous owner fabricated it from the picture. I have a jib furler line that I would like to cleat about where that cleat seems to be located on your boat.
Tim
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Rob Bultman Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 10:19 AM To: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: outboard questions
Tim, you will have to forgive me. The boat is rigged as I received from the previous owner, and being new to sailing I don't know what a springline cleat is!
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 1:16 PM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
John, both Mercury and Tohatsu are making 20" propane models.
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 12:55 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Is someone making a 20" shaft propane now? I looked into the Lehr models but they only had short shaft a couple years ago. They are a bit heavier for same HP as gas motors (2.3 and 3.5 hp gas that is - as mentioned if you go to 4 hp you have the weight of a 6 hp).
More shortly re my setup...
cheers, John
On 5/20/20 8:21 AM, Rob Bultman wrote:
Thanks or the replies so far. I'm frankly on the fence regarding gas vs propane. I'm leaning towards the Mercury 5 HP sail power model, 20" long shaft, mostly because it has reverse on the handle. Is the 20" adequate or is the extra long shaft better?
Dave - I have a 1977 M17 with the cutout. I've attach two photos that I happen to have that show the transom of my actual boat. What is the concern here?
Thanks, Rob
On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 10:17 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Rob:
First a question for you - what year is your M17? There is one issue that relates to the older 'first desk version' Mk1 boats with the outboard cutout in the transom that is different than the second generation Mk2 boats.
A 4HP motor is more than enough for the M17. Sadly there are no more true 4HP motors made - most are now the same as a 6HP with de-rated carbs. This also means the motors weigh more than a true 4HP motor. Weight aft is bad. (Motor I always wish I had was the true 4HP Yamaha.). The new Honda 4/5/6 are excellent but way to heavy. I had a Suzuki 4 (6 is the same motor with external tank and alternator options).
Place your external tank at the aft end of the cockpit footwell. Two reasons: #1 is the aft locker of the Mk2 boats is NOT safe for fuel storage as it is open to the cabin. #2 is the fuel can sitting at the aft end of the cockpit will encourage you to sit at the proper location near the head of the tiller NOT at the back of the cockpit! For most M17s this sitting location is just aft of the cockpit mainsheet floor traveler track (again there are some differences in the boats with traveler placement).
The gas can doesn't get in the way.
Propane has some negatives - mainly fuel tank storage, less range, refilling when cruising and the Lehr build quality is poor. IMO gasoline is still the best bet for a cruiser.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 4:31 AM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm looking at getting an outboard for my M17 and I have a few questions. > > 1) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it > when you are > under sail? > 2) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it > when you are > under power? > 3) To what degree does the fuel tank get in the way either > when under sail > or power? > 4) Any opinions on gasoline vs propane outboards? > > Thanks, > Rob >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
My boat came with both a "standard" jib and a roller furler genoa, so I'm guessing you are right. On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 1:44 PM <swwheatley@comcast.net> wrote:
The forward blocks are in approximately the correct position for jib sheet leads. The aft blocks are in approximately the correct position for genoa sheet leads. If you ever fit a roller furling genoa, you will want more adjustability than that. I use one block per side with a snap shackle that allows me to adjust the lead from hole to hole along the toe rail.
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of Rob Bultman Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 10:32 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: outboard questions
With the photo...
On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 10:31 PM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
Tim,
I only count 5 cleats on the boat, one on the bow and two on the top of the cockpit coaming (if I am using the term correctly) on either side of the boat, one just aft of the winch and one towards the stern. I assumed that the cleats just aft of the winches were meant to secure the jib sheet on a particular point of sail. Other boats I have sailed typically have a v-cleat or cam cleat instead of a "yacht" cleat for securing a jib sheet.
There are two pulleys (fairleads?) on each side of the boat, one about even with the rear of the cabin and one about even with the cleat just aft of the winch. These are tied to the perforated toe rail with 3 strands of small line. I assumed that the forward ones were used to lead the jib sheet towards the winches, which is how I planned to use them. I'm not sure what the rear ones were used for.
The attached photo shows the positions of the two pulleys and cleat on the port side.
Regards, Rob
On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 8:23 PM TIm Brown <tim-brown@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Rob...
It is the cleat you have bolted to the toe rail. It looks like the previous owner fabricated it from the picture. I have a jib furler line that I would like to cleat about where that cleat seems to be located on your boat.
Tim
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Rob Bultman Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 10:19 AM To: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: outboard questions
Tim, you will have to forgive me. The boat is rigged as I received from the previous owner, and being new to sailing I don't know what a springline cleat is!
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 1:16 PM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
John, both Mercury and Tohatsu are making 20" propane models.
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 12:55 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Is someone making a 20" shaft propane now? I looked into the Lehr models but they only had short shaft a couple years ago. They are a bit heavier for same HP as gas motors (2.3 and 3.5 hp gas that is - as mentioned if you go to 4 hp you have the weight of a 6 hp).
More shortly re my setup...
cheers, John
On 5/20/20 8:21 AM, Rob Bultman wrote:
Thanks or the replies so far. I'm frankly on the fence regarding gas vs propane. I'm leaning towards the Mercury 5 HP sail power model, 20" long shaft, mostly because it has reverse on the handle. Is the 20" adequate or is the extra long shaft better?
Dave - I have a 1977 M17 with the cutout. I've attach two photos that I happen to have that show the transom of my actual boat. What is the concern here?
Thanks, Rob
On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 10:17 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rob: > > First a question for you - what year is your M17? There is one > issue that > relates to the older 'first desk version' Mk1 boats with the > outboard cutout in the transom that is different than the > second generation Mk2 boats. > > A 4HP motor is more than enough for the M17. Sadly there are > no more true > 4HP motors made - most are now the same as a 6HP with de-rated carbs. This > also means the motors weigh more than a true 4HP motor. Weight > aft is bad. (Motor I always wish I had was the true 4HP Yamaha.). > The new Honda > 4/5/6 are excellent but way to heavy. I had a Suzuki 4 (6 is > the same motor with external tank and alternator options). > > Place your external tank at the aft end of the cockpit footwell. > Two > reasons: #1 is the aft locker of the Mk2 boats is NOT safe for > fuel storage > as it is open to the cabin. #2 is the fuel can sitting at the > aft end of > the cockpit will encourage you to sit at the proper location > near the head > of the tiller NOT at the back of the cockpit! For most M17s > this sitting > location is just aft of the cockpit mainsheet floor traveler > track (again > there are some differences in the boats with traveler placement). > > The gas can doesn't get in the way. > > Propane has some negatives - mainly fuel tank storage, less > range, refilling when cruising and the Lehr build quality is > poor. IMO gasoline > is still the best bet for a cruiser. > > > :: Dave Scobie > :: M6'8" #650 > :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com > :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com > :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - > www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ > > > On Wed, May 20, 2020, 4:31 AM Rob Bultman > <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I'm looking at getting an outboard for my M17 and I have a few questions. >> >> 1) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it >> when you are >> under sail? >> 2) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it >> when you are >> under power? >> 3) To what degree does the fuel tank get in the way either >> when under > sail >> or power? >> 4) Any opinions on gasoline vs propane outboards? >> >> Thanks, >> Rob >> >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Hi Do you know how I can unsubscribe this maillist ? As I ve bought another boat 😉 Thanks Envoyé de mon iPhone
Le 21 mai 2020 à 04:31, Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> a écrit :
Tim,
I only count 5 cleats on the boat, one on the bow and two on the top of the cockpit coaming (if I am using the term correctly) on either side of the boat, one just aft of the winch and one towards the stern. I assumed that the cleats just aft of the winches were meant to secure the jib sheet on a particular point of sail. Other boats I have sailed typically have a v-cleat or cam cleat instead of a "yacht" cleat for securing a jib sheet.
There are two pulleys (fairleads?) on each side of the boat, one about even with the rear of the cabin and one about even with the cleat just aft of the winch. These are tied to the perforated toe rail with 3 strands of small line. I assumed that the forward ones were used to lead the jib sheet towards the winches, which is how I planned to use them. I'm not sure what the rear ones were used for.
The attached photo shows the positions of the two pulleys and cleat on the port side.
Regards, Rob
On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 8:23 PM TIm Brown <tim-brown@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Rob...
It is the cleat you have bolted to the toe rail. It looks like the previous owner fabricated it from the picture. I have a jib furler line that I would like to cleat about where that cleat seems to be located on your boat.
Tim
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Rob Bultman Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2020 10:19 AM To: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: outboard questions
Tim, you will have to forgive me. The boat is rigged as I received from the previous owner, and being new to sailing I don't know what a springline cleat is!
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 1:16 PM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
John, both Mercury and Tohatsu are making 20" propane models.
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 12:55 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Is someone making a 20" shaft propane now? I looked into the Lehr models but they only had short shaft a couple years ago. They are a bit heavier for same HP as gas motors (2.3 and 3.5 hp gas that is - as mentioned if you go to 4 hp you have the weight of a 6 hp).
More shortly re my setup...
cheers, John
On 5/20/20 8:21 AM, Rob Bultman wrote: Thanks or the replies so far. I'm frankly on the fence regarding gas vs propane. I'm leaning towards the Mercury 5 HP sail power model, 20" long shaft, mostly because it has reverse on the handle. Is the 20" adequate or is the extra long shaft better?
Dave - I have a 1977 M17 with the cutout. I've attach two photos that I happen to have that show the transom of my actual boat. What is the concern here?
Thanks, Rob
On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 10:17 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Rob:
First a question for you - what year is your M17? There is one issue that relates to the older 'first desk version' Mk1 boats with the outboard cutout in the transom that is different than the second generation Mk2 boats.
A 4HP motor is more than enough for the M17. Sadly there are no more true 4HP motors made - most are now the same as a 6HP with de-rated carbs. This also means the motors weigh more than a true 4HP motor. Weight aft is bad. (Motor I always wish I had was the true 4HP Yamaha.). The new Honda 4/5/6 are excellent but way to heavy. I had a Suzuki 4 (6 is the same motor with external tank and alternator options).
Place your external tank at the aft end of the cockpit footwell. Two reasons: #1 is the aft locker of the Mk2 boats is NOT safe for fuel storage as it is open to the cabin. #2 is the fuel can sitting at the aft end of the cockpit will encourage you to sit at the proper location near the head of the tiller NOT at the back of the cockpit! For most M17s this sitting location is just aft of the cockpit mainsheet floor traveler track (again there are some differences in the boats with traveler placement).
The gas can doesn't get in the way.
Propane has some negatives - mainly fuel tank storage, less range, refilling when cruising and the Lehr build quality is poor. IMO gasoline is still the best bet for a cruiser.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 4:31 AM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm looking at getting an outboard for my M17 and I have a few questions. > > 1) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when > you are > under sail? > 2) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when > you are > under power? > 3) To what degree does the fuel tank get in the way either when > under sail > or power? > 4) Any opinions on gasoline vs propane outboards? > > Thanks, > Rob >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
See - https://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ On Wed, May 20, 2020, 11:32 PM Guillaume ducrot < guillaume_ducrot@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi Do you know how I can unsubscribe this maillist ? As I ve bought another boat 😉 Thanks
Envoyé de mon iPhone
Aha, OK! Haven't looked at offerings since I researched for a year or so before buying my Honda. Good for them! Lehr was the only propane option back then and no 20" shaft. I wrote them and said they could have a corner on the pocket cruiser auxiliary market if they put out a 20" model. They said they'd take it under consideration but no immediate plans to produce one. Looks like they got passed up by Tohatsu. Tohatsu makes Mercury's small motors, or at least they did up to a couple years ago. They are literally the same motor with a different branding, I looked at both back when I was shopping. cheers, John On 5/20/20 10:16 AM, Rob Bultman wrote:
John, both Mercury and Tohatsu are making 20" propane models.
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 12:55 PM John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com <mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> wrote:
Is someone making a 20" shaft propane now? I looked into the Lehr models but they only had short shaft a couple years ago. They are a bit heavier for same HP as gas motors (2.3 and 3.5 hp gas that is - as mentioned if you go to 4 hp you have the weight of a 6 hp).
More shortly re my setup...
cheers, John
On 5/20/20 8:21 AM, Rob Bultman wrote: > Thanks or the replies so far. I'm frankly on the fence regarding gas vs > propane. I'm leaning towards the Mercury 5 HP sail power model, 20" long > shaft, mostly because it has reverse on the handle. Is the 20" adequate or > is the extra long shaft better? > > Dave - I have a 1977 M17 with the cutout. I've attach two photos that I > happen to have that show the transom of my actual boat. What is the > concern here? > > Thanks, > Rob > > On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 10:17 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com <mailto:scoobscobie@gmail.com>> wrote: > >> Rob: >> >> First a question for you - what year is your M17? There is one issue that >> relates to the older 'first desk version' Mk1 boats with the outboard >> cutout in the transom that is different than the second generation Mk2 >> boats. >> >> A 4HP motor is more than enough for the M17. Sadly there are no more true >> 4HP motors made - most are now the same as a 6HP with de-rated carbs. This >> also means the motors weigh more than a true 4HP motor. Weight aft is >> bad. (Motor I always wish I had was the true 4HP Yamaha.). The new Honda >> 4/5/6 are excellent but way to heavy. I had a Suzuki 4 (6 is the same >> motor with external tank and alternator options). >> >> Place your external tank at the aft end of the cockpit footwell. Two >> reasons: #1 is the aft locker of the Mk2 boats is NOT safe for fuel storage >> as it is open to the cabin. #2 is the fuel can sitting at the aft end of >> the cockpit will encourage you to sit at the proper location near the head >> of the tiller NOT at the back of the cockpit! For most M17s this sitting >> location is just aft of the cockpit mainsheet floor traveler track (again >> there are some differences in the boats with traveler placement). >> >> The gas can doesn't get in the way. >> >> Propane has some negatives - mainly fuel tank storage, less range, >> refilling when cruising and the Lehr build quality is poor. IMO gasoline >> is still the best bet for a cruiser. >> >> >> :: Dave Scobie >> :: M6'8" #650 >> :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com <http://sv-swallow.com> >> :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com <http://m17-375.com> >> :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ <http://www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/> >> >> >> On Wed, May 20, 2020, 4:31 AM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com <mailto:rob.bultman@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >>> I'm looking at getting an outboard for my M17 and I have a few questions. >>> >>> 1) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are >>> under sail? >>> 2) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are >>> under power? >>> 3) To what degree does the fuel tank get in the way either when under >> sail >>> or power? >>> 4) Any opinions on gasoline vs propane outboards? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Rob >>> >>
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net <mailto:john@eco-living.net> - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I have a '74 with the cutout transom. It came with a nice stainless spring loaded multi-position transom mount. Unfortunately not with a good stiffener inside the transom for the mount, but I've since installed one. As Dave said, most modern 4-stoke outboards will not fit in that cutout, or will fit but can't be turned easily (or at all) enough to maneuver. This includes the Honda 2.3, small and light as it is, it is too wide in the power head and the throttle lever comes out wide. Somewhere back in the list Jerry commented about how that cutout was designed around a particularly good motor of the era, which was of course a 2-stroke and narrower and fit well no doubt. With the lifting mount, my motor when raised and tilted ends up with weight centered more or less where it would be in the transom mount anyhow. A plus with an adjustable mount is being able to adjust motor height to compensate for boat trim, wave conditions, etc. Also in most cases the motor can be raised higher than in transom cutout, insuring no dragging. cheers, John On 5/20/20 8:21 AM, Rob Bultman wrote:
Thanks or the replies so far. I'm frankly on the fence regarding gas vs propane. I'm leaning towards the Mercury 5 HP sail power model, 20" long shaft, mostly because it has reverse on the handle. Is the 20" adequate or is the extra long shaft better?
Dave - I have a 1977 M17 with the cutout. I've attach two photos that I happen to have that show the transom of my actual boat. What is the concern here?
Thanks, Rob
On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 10:17 AM Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Rob:
First a question for you - what year is your M17? There is one issue that relates to the older 'first desk version' Mk1 boats with the outboard cutout in the transom that is different than the second generation Mk2 boats.
A 4HP motor is more than enough for the M17. Sadly there are no more true 4HP motors made - most are now the same as a 6HP with de-rated carbs. This also means the motors weigh more than a true 4HP motor. Weight aft is bad. (Motor I always wish I had was the true 4HP Yamaha.). The new Honda 4/5/6 are excellent but way to heavy. I had a Suzuki 4 (6 is the same motor with external tank and alternator options).
Place your external tank at the aft end of the cockpit footwell. Two reasons: #1 is the aft locker of the Mk2 boats is NOT safe for fuel storage as it is open to the cabin. #2 is the fuel can sitting at the aft end of the cockpit will encourage you to sit at the proper location near the head of the tiller NOT at the back of the cockpit! For most M17s this sitting location is just aft of the cockpit mainsheet floor traveler track (again there are some differences in the boats with traveler placement).
The gas can doesn't get in the way.
Propane has some negatives - mainly fuel tank storage, less range, refilling when cruising and the Lehr build quality is poor. IMO gasoline is still the best bet for a cruiser.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Wed, May 20, 2020, 4:31 AM Rob Bultman <rob.bultman@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm looking at getting an outboard for my M17 and I have a few questions.
1) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under sail? 2) If you have an external fuel tank, where do you keep it when you are under power? 3) To what degree does the fuel tank get in the way either when under sail or power? 4) Any opinions on gasoline vs propane outboards?
Thanks, Rob
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
participants (12)
-
Charlie -
Dave Scobie -
Edward Epifani -
Guillaume ducrot -
Henry Rodriguez -
John Schinnerer -
Peter Zimowsky -
Rob Bultman -
swwheatley＠comcast.net -
Thomas Buzzi -
Tim Brown -
TIm Brown