Torquedo for M-15?
Hi,Has anyone tried a torquedo for a M-15?-Is the 503 sufficient, or the 1003 a better way to go? Seems like the 503 should be OK in still water, can it move a M15 against wind/current?-I have a fixed position motor mount; is the long shaft the way to go?-It seems like the 915 watt hour battery should be able to move the boat a long way in theory; does that hold up in practice? I’m sailing M15#498 in Lake Washington and occasionally Puget Sound near Seattle. Thanks!Cheers,Nicholas Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
Email Sal at Sage- he was talking about getting a dealership for them and probably can answer your question. -----Original Message----- From: Nicholas Sherman via montgomery_boats Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2019 11:53 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: Torquedo for M-15? Hi,Has anyone tried a torquedo for a M-15?-Is the 503 sufficient, or the 1003 a better way to go? Seems like the 503 should be OK in still water, can it move a M15 against wind/current?-I have a fixed position motor mount; is the long shaft the way to go?-It seems like the 915 watt hour battery should be able to move the boat a long way in theory; does that hold up in practice? I’m sailing M15#498 in Lake Washington and occasionally Puget Sound near Seattle. Thanks!Cheers,Nicholas Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
My experience is with a 1003 FWIW. It was used on an International Folkboat to get on/off mooring and when wind was slack, to get back from relatively local sailing jaunts. The boat is way bigger (4700 lbs displ) than the 1003 is rated for but for those limited uses, it was enough. Wouldn't have a lot of range on that boat. It was also used on a Potter 19, for which it was more than enough, practically made it a speedboat if you cranked up the throttle (with resulting short battery life of course). So given that a 1003 was sporty a Potter 19, I would say it would be overkill for an M15. YMMV of course. cheers, John On 5/8/19 11:53 PM, Nicholas Sherman via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hi,Has anyone tried a torquedo for a M-15?-Is the 503 sufficient, or the 1003 a better way to go? Seems like the 503 should be OK in still water, can it move a M15 against wind/current?-I have a fixed position motor mount; is the long shaft the way to go?-It seems like the 915 watt hour battery should be able to move the boat a long way in theory; does that hold up in practice? I’m sailing M15#498 in Lake Washington and occasionally Puget Sound near Seattle.
Thanks!Cheers,Nicholas
Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I've pasted comments below posted by Dave Scobie on the subject some time ago. A very thorough review: I have test-driven the Torqeedo 1003L model (long shaft). Conclusion #1: For daysailing, I'd choose the Torqeedo over a gas OB. It's super easy to carry, to start, to drive, to store it, etc I found it to be more than adequate for day sailing or weekending where a range of 8-10 NM is adequate. I'd give it 5 stars for convenience and ease of use compared to my 5 hp OB. Conclusion #2: Offshore, I think I'd prefer a gas OB because I might I might need to motor 25 NM on a schedule. On the other hand, you can run a Torqeedo on solar power. With the optional 45W flexible solar panel, it runs at 1/4 or 1/3 throttle even with a dead battery. The solar panel will fully charge the battery in about 5-6 hours on a sunny day. Maybe it's the ultimate for boon docking trips in sunny climates Details: Power: It had plenty of thrust for a boat and crew weighing around 3000 pounds. At half throttle it pushed us at 3-4 kts upwind against 5-8 kts of wind. At full throttle, it had plenty of power to push it at 5.+ kts of speed, but it was guzzling watts at full throttle. Battery usage and range for daysailing: After motoring about 5-6 NM during the day, we had 30% of the charge left. We motored upwind out of the Oakland Estuary (4 NM) against a headwind of 5-8 kt, sometimes at half throttle, and sometimes a full throttle. On the way back, the wind died and we motored another 1 NM at half-throttle. When we got close to home we opened it up full throttle for the last mile. It really uses the charge fast at full throttle. Noise: 5 stars. It hums very softly when it's turned on. You talk and hear at normal conversational volume. You can hear the water gurgling easily above it. Throttle and shifting: 5 stars. Turn the throttle one way for forward, turn it the other way for reverse and it responds instantly. There is no need to move a lever to shift. . Electric starting: 5 Stars. It turns on instantly with the touch of a button. Utterly reliable starting. No warm up, no choke. Tilt up mechanism: 5 stars. It takes 2-3 seconds to tilt it up or down and the lever is on the top of the mounting bracket, not underneath the motor head. Much easier than my Nissan 5 hp. Built in instruments: There is a built-in display with a GPS. It displays speed over ground, rate of discharge, and remaining range in miles or NM (and maybe more parameters, but I didn't play with it.) It warns you when you get down to 30% of charge, so you can throttle back if you need to. We used it to monitor how we were doing. Carrying Convenience #1: 5 stars - I carried it down a steep ramp at very low tide and it was easy. I can't do that with my 5 hp gas OB. You can arry it at any angle, no need to keep it upright. It weighs half as much as a my 5 hp 4-stroke OB. It's 20 pounds without the battery on it. The battery weighs about 10 pounds. Storing Convenience #2: 5 stars. There's no gas to spill or smell. No grease. We put it directly on the back seat of the car. When you take the battery and throttle off, it 's very compact and fits almost anywhere. You could put it on top of cushions inside the boat, or on top of gear in car. Or put gear on top of it... without getting anything greasy. One more interesting observation: The shaft of the OB is foil shaped. Even with the power off, you can use the shaft as a rudder to steer the boat while docking. On Wed, May 8, 2019, 23:54 Nicholas Sherman via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi,Has anyone tried a torquedo for a M-15?-Is the 503 sufficient, or the 1003 a better way to go? Seems like the 503 should be OK in still water, can it move a M15 against wind/current?-I have a fixed position motor mount; is the long shaft the way to go?-It seems like the 915 watt hour battery should be able to move the boat a long way in theory; does that hold up in practice? I’m sailing M15#498 in Lake Washington and occasionally Puget Sound near Seattle.
Thanks!Cheers,Nicholas
Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
Mostly agree, though the 1003 is heavier and more awkward to handle and stow on a small boat than I expected (it was awkward to get it stowed below on the International Folkboat which is a 26 footer). Definitely cleaner though! And it's a bit easier if you separate the battery and the rest of the unit. My only concern about this report would be the idea that on a 45W solar panel alone you can go anywhere. Let's just do the math... 45W is 0.06 HP (not counting losses in wiring and energy conversion between the panel in perfect full sun and the propeller). For comparison, top athletes putting out max power generate about 0.1 HP (the guy who pedaled the Gossamer Condor on its prize-winning human powered fligh for example was rated at about 0.1 HP continuous). Torqeedo says the 1003 is comparable to a 3HP gas outboard, and delivers over 1000W of power (max throttle I assume). That's interesting in itself since 1000W is only 1.35 HP. But the torque and other factors in electric motors are significantly different than gas motors - anyhow... 1/4 to 1/3 throttle would be at least .75HP and up and at least 250W and up. That's a lot more than 45W. Also you cannot charge a 530WH battery (1003 spec for battery) from a 45W panel in 5-6 hours. Even if it was perfect full sun and no losses in the charging system, 530WH/45W = 11.8 hours minimum. So with that caveat...the one I got to play with was pretty nice. cheers, John On 5/9/19 11:23 AM, Mark Dvorscak wrote:
I've pasted comments below posted by Dave Scobie on the subject some time ago. A very thorough review:
I have test-driven the Torqeedo 1003L model (long shaft). Conclusion #1: For daysailing, I'd choose the Torqeedo over a gas OB. It's super easy to carry, to start, to drive, to store it, etc I found it to be more than adequate for day sailing or weekending where a range of 8-10 NM is adequate. I'd give it 5 stars for convenience and ease of use compared to my 5 hp OB. Conclusion #2: Offshore, I think I'd prefer a gas OB because I might I might need to motor 25 NM on a schedule. On the other hand, you can run a Torqeedo on solar power. With the optional 45W flexible solar panel, it runs at 1/4 or 1/3 throttle even with a dead battery. The solar panel will fully charge the battery in about 5-6 hours on a sunny day. Maybe it's the ultimate for boon docking trips in sunny climates Details: Power: It had plenty of thrust for a boat and crew weighing around 3000 pounds. At half throttle it pushed us at 3-4 kts upwind against 5-8 kts of wind. At full throttle, it had plenty of power to push it at 5.+ kts of speed, but it was guzzling watts at full throttle. Battery usage and range for daysailing: After motoring about 5-6 NM during the day, we had 30% of the charge left. We motored upwind out of the Oakland Estuary (4 NM) against a headwind of 5-8 kt, sometimes at half throttle, and sometimes a full throttle. On the way back, the wind died and we motored another 1 NM at half-throttle. When we got close to home we opened it up full throttle for the last mile. It really uses the charge fast at full throttle. Noise: 5 stars. It hums very softly when it's turned on. You talk and hear at normal conversational volume. You can hear the water gurgling easily above it. Throttle and shifting: 5 stars. Turn the throttle one way for forward, turn it the other way for reverse and it responds instantly. There is no need to move a lever to shift. . Electric starting: 5 Stars. It turns on instantly with the touch of a button. Utterly reliable starting. No warm up, no choke. Tilt up mechanism: 5 stars. It takes 2-3 seconds to tilt it up or down and the lever is on the top of the mounting bracket, not underneath the motor head. Much easier than my Nissan 5 hp. Built in instruments: There is a built-in display with a GPS. It displays speed over ground, rate of discharge, and remaining range in miles or NM (and maybe more parameters, but I didn't play with it.) It warns you when you get down to 30% of charge, so you can throttle back if you need to. We used it to monitor how we were doing. Carrying Convenience #1: 5 stars - I carried it down a steep ramp at very low tide and it was easy. I can't do that with my 5 hp gas OB. You can arry it at any angle, no need to keep it upright. It weighs half as much as a my 5 hp 4-stroke OB. It's 20 pounds without the battery on it. The battery weighs about 10 pounds. Storing Convenience #2: 5 stars. There's no gas to spill or smell. No grease. We put it directly on the back seat of the car. When you take the battery and throttle off, it 's very compact and fits almost anywhere. You could put it on top of cushions inside the boat, or on top of gear in car. Or put gear on top of it... without getting anything greasy. One more interesting observation: The shaft of the OB is foil shaped. Even with the power off, you can use the shaft as a rudder to steer the boat while docking.
On Wed, May 8, 2019, 23:54 Nicholas Sherman via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi,Has anyone tried a torquedo for a M-15?-Is the 503 sufficient, or the 1003 a better way to go? Seems like the 503 should be OK in still water, can it move a M15 against wind/current?-I have a fixed position motor mount; is the long shaft the way to go?-It seems like the 915 watt hour battery should be able to move the boat a long way in theory; does that hold up in practice? I’m sailing M15#498 in Lake Washington and occasionally Puget Sound near Seattle.
Thanks!Cheers,Nicholas
Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
PS - for an empirical reality check on solar panel power only - a guy in a slip near me when I was at Fern Ridge last fall was playing with solar power only on his Torqeedo, just to see what it could do. I forget the boat type, but it was a racing type retractable keel thing around 21 ft. or so with companionway offset to one side. A letter and a number as the name of design, like Z23 or R21 or something. He had a couple hundred watts of panel laid out on his rails. He could cruise around the glassy water of the marina in the morning at 1-2 knots max depending on how much panel got shaded by his rigging as he steered around the basin. That about fits with the math below. cheers, John On 5/9/19 11:42 AM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Mostly agree, though the 1003 is heavier and more awkward to handle and stow on a small boat than I expected (it was awkward to get it stowed below on the International Folkboat which is a 26 footer). Definitely cleaner though! And it's a bit easier if you separate the battery and the rest of the unit.
My only concern about this report would be the idea that on a 45W solar panel alone you can go anywhere. Let's just do the math...
45W is 0.06 HP (not counting losses in wiring and energy conversion between the panel in perfect full sun and the propeller). For comparison, top athletes putting out max power generate about 0.1 HP (the guy who pedaled the Gossamer Condor on its prize-winning human powered fligh for example was rated at about 0.1 HP continuous).
Torqeedo says the 1003 is comparable to a 3HP gas outboard, and delivers over 1000W of power (max throttle I assume). That's interesting in itself since 1000W is only 1.35 HP. But the torque and other factors in electric motors are significantly different than gas motors - anyhow... 1/4 to 1/3 throttle would be at least .75HP and up and at least 250W and up. That's a lot more than 45W.
Also you cannot charge a 530WH battery (1003 spec for battery) from a 45W panel in 5-6 hours. Even if it was perfect full sun and no losses in the charging system, 530WH/45W = 11.8 hours minimum.
So with that caveat...the one I got to play with was pretty nice.
cheers, John
On 5/9/19 11:23 AM, Mark Dvorscak wrote:
I've pasted comments below posted by Dave Scobie on the subject some time ago. A very thorough review:
I have test-driven the Torqeedo 1003L model (long shaft). Conclusion #1: For daysailing, I'd choose the Torqeedo over a gas OB. It's super easy to carry, to start, to drive, to store it, etc I found it to be more than adequate for day sailing or weekending where a range of 8-10 NM is adequate. I'd give it 5 stars for convenience and ease of use compared to my 5 hp OB. Conclusion #2: Offshore, I think I'd prefer a gas OB because I might I might need to motor 25 NM on a schedule. On the other hand, you can run a Torqeedo on solar power. With the optional 45W flexible solar panel, it runs at 1/4 or 1/3 throttle even with a dead battery. The solar panel will fully charge the battery in about 5-6 hours on a sunny day. Maybe it's the ultimate for boon docking trips in sunny climates Details: Power: It had plenty of thrust for a boat and crew weighing around 3000 pounds. At half throttle it pushed us at 3-4 kts upwind against 5-8 kts of wind. At full throttle, it had plenty of power to push it at 5.+ kts of speed, but it was guzzling watts at full throttle. Battery usage and range for daysailing: After motoring about 5-6 NM during the day, we had 30% of the charge left. We motored upwind out of the Oakland Estuary (4 NM) against a headwind of 5-8 kt, sometimes at half throttle, and sometimes a full throttle. On the way back, the wind died and we motored another 1 NM at half-throttle. When we got close to home we opened it up full throttle for the last mile. It really uses the charge fast at full throttle. Noise: 5 stars. It hums very softly when it's turned on. You talk and hear at normal conversational volume. You can hear the water gurgling easily above it. Throttle and shifting: 5 stars. Turn the throttle one way for forward, turn it the other way for reverse and it responds instantly. There is no need to move a lever to shift. . Electric starting: 5 Stars. It turns on instantly with the touch of a button. Utterly reliable starting. No warm up, no choke. Tilt up mechanism: 5 stars. It takes 2-3 seconds to tilt it up or down and the lever is on the top of the mounting bracket, not underneath the motor head. Much easier than my Nissan 5 hp. Built in instruments: There is a built-in display with a GPS. It displays speed over ground, rate of discharge, and remaining range in miles or NM (and maybe more parameters, but I didn't play with it.) It warns you when you get down to 30% of charge, so you can throttle back if you need to. We used it to monitor how we were doing. Carrying Convenience #1: 5 stars - I carried it down a steep ramp at very low tide and it was easy. I can't do that with my 5 hp gas OB. You can arry it at any angle, no need to keep it upright. It weighs half as much as a my 5 hp 4-stroke OB. It's 20 pounds without the battery on it. The battery weighs about 10 pounds. Storing Convenience #2: 5 stars. There's no gas to spill or smell. No grease. We put it directly on the back seat of the car. When you take the battery and throttle off, it 's very compact and fits almost anywhere. You could put it on top of cushions inside the boat, or on top of gear in car. Or put gear on top of it... without getting anything greasy. One more interesting observation: The shaft of the OB is foil shaped. Even with the power off, you can use the shaft as a rudder to steer the boat while docking.
On Wed, May 8, 2019, 23:54 Nicholas Sherman via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Hi,Has anyone tried a torquedo for a M-15?-Is the 503 sufficient, or the 1003 a better way to go? Seems like the 503 should be OK in still water, can it move a M15 against wind/current?-I have a fixed position motor mount; is the long shaft the way to go?-It seems like the 915 watt hour battery should be able to move the boat a long way in theory; does that hold up in practice? I’m sailing M15#498 in Lake Washington and occasionally Puget Sound near Seattle.
Thanks!Cheers,Nicholas
Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
participants (4)
-
jerry＠jerrymontgomery.org -
John Schinnerer -
Mark Dvorscak -
Nicholas Sherman