I have a M17 Hull #502 built in 1993. I sailed her for a number of years and could never figure out why the winches are canted out. My wife and I barrel race on Barnegat Bay in NJ and have a difficult time trimming the 150 jib as the line is always crossed over. Any comments on crew positioning are welcome. Thanks -- Best Regards, Bob Goodyear rbgoodyear@gmail.com 732.684.1738 c
We slide the genny block down past the winch and tail it backward. Sent from my iPad
On Aug 3, 2021, at 1:07 PM, Robert Goodyear <rbgoodyear@gmail.com> wrote:
I have a M17 Hull #502 built in 1993. I sailed her for a number of years and could never figure out why the winches are canted out. My wife and I barrel race on Barnegat Bay in NJ and have a difficult time trimming the 150 jib as the line is always crossed over. Any comments on crew positioning are welcome. Thanks
-- Best Regards,
Bob Goodyear rbgoodyear@gmail.com 732.684.1738 c <2021-08-03 10.31.29.jpg> <2021-08-03 10.30.33.jpg>
With the sheets quite a bit further behind, the sheet will cross over on itself. Different on the one side than the other due to both winches turning the same way, so the sheet wraps outboard on one side but inboard on the other. When I was using the original hank-on genoa, which was a 'sweeper' (cut low to deck), my blocks were still enough forward of the winch. When I got the furling cruising jib (higher cut) they had to be back behind the winch a fair bit, and the sheet would interfere with itself somewhat. I never used the winches with a handle to actually trim the jib. I just took wraps on them from habit from larger boats. Most of my sailing so far has been lakes where I'm tacking fairly frequently, so it is just a hassle to wrap on and off the winches. I've since switched to using swivel cam-cleats for my jib sheets, with blocks on soft shackles thru toe rail (I have the older aluminum toe rail, full of holes). The blocks are pretty far aft due to the cut of the cruising jib (I posted some pics long ago). Solves the sheet crossover problem for sure. As someone pointed out at the time, the sheet could still run to the winch after the swivel cleat if needed for purchase to trim. I just luff up quickly if necessary to sheet in jib. Henry on Monita did something similar, slightly different hardware, before I did, that's what got me thinking it was viable. cheers, John On 8/3/21 1:27 PM, Bob Eeg wrote:
We slide the genny block down past the winch and tail it backward.
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 3, 2021, at 1:07 PM, Robert Goodyear <rbgoodyear@gmail.com> wrote:
I have a M17 Hull #502 built in 1993. I sailed her for a number of years and could never figure out why the winches are canted out. My wife and I barrel race on Barnegat Bay in NJ and have a difficult time trimming the 150 jib as the line is always crossed over. Any comments on crew positioning are welcome. Thanks
-- Best Regards,
Bob Goodyear rbgoodyear@gmail.com 732.684.1738 c <2021-08-03 10.31.29.jpg> <2021-08-03 10.30.33.jpg>
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
For a 150, the block needs to be well aft of the winch. I'm assuming your 150 has tell-tales and you know how to use them to adjust twist. -----Original Message----- From: Robert Goodyear <rbgoodyear@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 3:30 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Winches on my M17 I have a M17 Hull #502 built in 1993. I sailed her for a number of years and could never figure out why the winches are canted out. My wife and I barrel race on Barnegat Bay in NJ and have a difficult time trimming the 150 jib as the line is always crossed over. Any comments on crew positioning are welcome. Thanks -- Best Regards, Bob Goodyear rbgoodyear@gmail.com 732.684.1738 c
I just replaced winches on my M17 with self tailing. $1000 for both. Have arthritis in my right shoulder and only sail single-hand so decided a little help would make things more enjoyable. Need I say, I like you, felt the original were not to my liking. Of course boat was build to sail with a crew. Also did an autopilot for more help. Best crew I could find. No arguing except a lecture to myself if doesn’t go as I want. I always hate to use age as an excuse for anything but at 81 I will take the help. Really haven’t sailed with them enough to give a report on how it all works together. Presently working on another boat project. Drascombe Lugger I’ve had 40 years. Charlie. Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 3, 2021, at 5:16 PM, swwheatley@comcast.net wrote:
For a 150, the block needs to be well aft of the winch.
I'm assuming your 150 has tell-tales and you know how to use them to adjust twist.
-----Original Message----- From: Robert Goodyear <rbgoodyear@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 3:30 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Winches on my M17
I have a M17 Hull #502 built in 1993. I sailed her for a number of years and could never figure out why the winches are canted out. My wife and I barrel race on Barnegat Bay in NJ and have a difficult time trimming the 150 jib as the line is always crossed over. Any comments on crew positioning are welcome. Thanks
-- Best Regards,
Bob Goodyear rbgoodyear@gmail.com 732.684.1738 c
I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra room of a 17. Perplexed. Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky) San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 5:17 PM, Charles Adams via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I just replaced winches on my M17 with self tailing. $1000 for both. Have arthritis in my right shoulder and only sail single-hand so decided a little help would make things more enjoyable. Need I say, I like you, felt the original were not to my liking. Of course boat was build to sail with a crew. Also did an autopilot for more help. Best crew I could find. No arguing except a lecture to myself if doesn’t go as I want. I always hate to use age as an excuse for anything but at 81 I will take the help.
Really haven’t sailed with them enough to give a report on how it all works together. Presently working on another boat project. Drascombe Lugger I’ve had 40 years.
Charlie.
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 3, 2021, at 5:16 PM, swwheatley@comcast.net wrote:
For a 150, the block needs to be well aft of the winch.
I'm assuming your 150 has tell-tales and you know how to use them to adjust twist.
-----Original Message----- From: Robert Goodyear <rbgoodyear@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 3:30 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Winches on my M17
I have a M17 Hull #502 built in 1993. I sailed her for a number of years and could never figure out why the winches are canted out. My wife and I barrel race on Barnegat Bay in NJ and have a difficult time trimming the 150 jib as the line is always crossed over. Any comments on crew positioning are welcome. Thanks
-- Best Regards,
Bob Goodyear rbgoodyear@gmail.com 732.684.1738 c
Peter: Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable sailers & cruisers. M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra room of a 17. Perplexed.
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
Hi Dave: I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there? Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky) San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Peter:
Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable sailers & cruisers.
M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra room of a 17. Perplexed.
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not? Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional. Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier. My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-) cheers, John On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hi Dave: I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there?
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Peter:
Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable sailers & cruisers.
M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra room of a 17. Perplexed.
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Another two cents...if you are cruising or on a mooring or in a slip for multiple days or weeks, an extra 20 or 30 minutes to rig up and down a 17 vs. 15 is not a big deal. But for day sailing, or less than a night or two out, for me at least, it's a deal breaker. I typically don't put in for less than 4-5 days of boat in water. That's what dinghies and other small light quick to rig day sailors are for... :-) cheers, John On 8/3/21 8:26 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not?
Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional.
Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier.
My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-)
cheers, John
On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hi Dave: I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there?
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Peter:
Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable sailers & cruisers.
M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra room of a 17. Perplexed.
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
John: Thanks for the insight. I’m just a cautious boater (whitewater and open water). Learn that from my dad crossing five miles across Barnegat Bay in Jersey. Remember bucking fierce afternoon storms that came up suddenly. We never had an issue. Getting older and more wary. Good winds, Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky) San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 9:32 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Another two cents...if you are cruising or on a mooring or in a slip for multiple days or weeks, an extra 20 or 30 minutes to rig up and down a 17 vs. 15 is not a big deal. But for day sailing, or less than a night or two out, for me at least, it's a deal breaker. I typically don't put in for less than 4-5 days of boat in water. That's what dinghies and other small light quick to rig day sailors are for... :-)
cheers, John
On 8/3/21 8:26 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not? Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional. Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier. My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-) cheers, John On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hi Dave: I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there?
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Peter:
Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable sailers & cruisers.
M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra room of a 17. Perplexed.
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Yup. I sail once a week for a day at the local reservoir and it’s easy to rig ( 35 minutes). That’s the advantage of the 15. Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky) San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/ "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 9:32 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Another two cents...if you are cruising or on a mooring or in a slip for multiple days or weeks, an extra 20 or 30 minutes to rig up and down a 17 vs. 15 is not a big deal. But for day sailing, or less than a night or two out, for me at least, it's a deal breaker. I typically don't put in for less than 4-5 days of boat in water. That's what dinghies and other small light quick to rig day sailors are for... :-)
cheers, John
On 8/3/21 8:26 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not? Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional. Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier. My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-) cheers, John On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hi Dave: I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there?
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Peter:
Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable sailers & cruisers.
M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra room of a 17. Perplexed.
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
On 8/3/2021 10:26 PM, John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats wrote:
If you are a skilled enough sailor & have the experience & preparation to be in those waters, I think you are fine in an M15. You might just have to put in to port for supplies a bit more often than in an M17. And hunker down sometimes when larger boats venture out. But if you play it smart & safe and the boat is big enough for you to cruise on, why not?
Bear in mind that people in kayaks and canoes - smaller lighter paddle-powered craft - travel all over those waters as well and if they are prepared and experienced enough they are fine also. Even SUPs go cruising there in recent years. Not to mention open camp-cruising boats, modern and traditional.
Meanwhile some fool with a big fancy boat but but lacking skill & prep & experience could get in serious trouble in their first ten minutes off the pier.
My $0.57 ($0.02 adjusted for inflation...:-)
cheers, John
On 8/3/21 6:11 PM, Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hi Dave: I’ve been going around and around about this for five years. Keep wanting to go up but the M15 is so easy to rig and sail. I just want to do open water in the San Juans and sometimes I think I”m out of my league in the big water. even through I’ve sailed hundreds of miles in SJs and Canada, still lingering is the fact that I’m I too small to be out there?
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Aug 3, 2021, at 6:29 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Peter:
Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable sailers & cruisers.
M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra room of a 17. Perplexed.
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
John, You forgot to mention the 18-year old (?) who sailed his M-15 from San Diego to Hawaii. Later he went to the California Maritime Academy, graduated, and went to sea. Today he is a Captain, and has cruised the world professorially. His book is a great read. I can highly recommend it. Connie
Dave's right; the 17 is a bit faster because of the length, and you can take more stuff with you. With the 15, you need to catch more fish. jerry ________________________________ From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 5:29 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17 Peter: Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable sailers & cruisers. M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom. :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra room of a 17. Perplexed.
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
I have no experience with the 17 so I’ll not comment on that. I just finished a week of sailing boot camp on my M-15 on Humboldt bay in Nor Cal. It was solo sailing, sailing with one guest, and two guests. Light -moderate air, occasional gusts, mid tide cycle currents. I found the info on the website very useful and accurate (Dave Scobies blog, another owners blog). My impression is that the boat is unusually responsive for a “ displacement” hull, if trim and balance is paid attention to: almost dinghy like.Solo, I kept myself as far forward as possible. A tiller extension is really required for this. With three I had one guest ride in the companionway. The two of of us in the cockpit were opposite next to cabin,heeled to leeward to keep sails full. I made the occasional dive to the windward side in gusts,hip to hip with the cockpit passenger. The boat sailed very well to windward with constant attention to sheeting. All gear was carefully stowed to maintain trim. No heavy stuff in cockpit lockers. Camping gear on aft part of bunk flat. But only as much as I could carry on my back. 2hp Honda OB on stern. For longer cruise I’d store it in cockpit locker. The boat is so handy that all docking and mooring was under sail. It’s clear to me that the boat needs both sails to balance well. Both blogs cover sail reduction sequence well. I will rig two part jiffy reefing on boom. And practice. In my experience It is essential to safety and seamanship to be able to reef quickly underway The new spectra lines make it possible to rig reefing with small diameter lines with little wind resistance. Even lazy jacks. The boat hove to well. We had to stop for a big freighter to be tug spun in the channel, and she looked right smart politely waiting. The Japanese crew was obviously relieved and waved from the bridge. The boat needed a little more main trim to heave to than I am used to but with practice it was fine. I would not load this boat down with piles of gear, at the risk of annihilating her best sailing qualities. Then she just becomes another squat tub. Ok for down wind but plan on motor sailing upwind. Overload in cockpit destroys windward ability. It’s pretty much over when you put 5-6 inches of transom in the water. If one is a gear heavy downwind passage sailor, a bigger boat might better serve. As one wishes, it’s a “free” country. Most of the modern cruising fleet is happy to plod along, and motor half the time…, so be it, as long as you are happy.That is not my particular preference. A note of grim humor: after a lot of sailing without incident, I managed to fall off the boat on the hard while exiting after final check for a three hundred mile tow home. Foot stool capsized and I rolled on top of it. Hurts much more than falling in water, BTW. Regards, Ed, M-15 375 Murrelet. Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 4, 2021, at 11:43 AM, jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> wrote:
Dave's right; the 17 is a bit faster because of the length, and you can take more stuff with you. With the 15, you need to catch more fish.
jerry
________________________________ From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 5:29 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17
Peter:
Pound for pound the M15 beats the M17. Faster & easier to rig, easier to tow, and vberth is much more comfortable. Boats are equally capable sailers & cruisers.
M17 has more storage space and sitting headroom.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site!
On Tue, Aug 3, 2021, 4:53 PM Peter Zimowsky via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
I sailed as a kid on Barnegat Bay. Also clammed, crabbed and fished the bay to make a living as a kid. Worked on the docks at Carl’s Boat Service for several summers. An old salty stuck in the sagebrush. Bummed. I sail now in the San Juan Islands. Got a Montgomery 15 been doing 100 mile sails in the islands the last few years. Love the boat but wondering about upgrading to a M17. Mine is 377 1985, excellent condition. Since I sail once a week year around, don’t know if going to an M17 would be worth it. M15 easy 30 minute set up. Only 7 days out of year would need the extra room of a 17. Perplexed.
Pete WinterSky (Zimowsky)
San Juan Islander lost inland - an old salty stuck in the sagebrush
outdoors writer and photographer Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pzimowsky Twitter: @zimosoutdoors The Northwest Outdoors Journey: https://outdoorsnorthwest.home.blog/2019/03/13/the-journey-begins/
"We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
One can always use 'ultralight backpacking' methods to provision an M15 for a long trip. People regularly do week long trips with only 10lbs of supplies + 5lb/day water and 1-2lb/day of dehydrated food... and it's even easier in an M15 since you don't need a tent, sleeping pad, or extreme cold sleeping bag! A watermaker or filter (for fresh water) could even reduce the water weight for long trips. There's also a lot of good advice out there on kayak camping, which is highly applicable to the M15. There's really no reason to carry heavy cargo for long cruises on an M15. I took this $12 online course from Cape Falcon Kayak on packing for kayak trips, which helped me drastically reduce the weight when doing longer trips on my M15: https://cape-falcon-kayak.thinkific.com/courses/lightweight-camping-for-kaya... Sincerely, Tyler ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Epifani" <edepifani@hotmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 11:26:09 AM Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17 I have no experience with the 17 so I’ll not comment on that. I just finished a week of sailing boot camp on my M-15 on Humboldt bay in Nor Cal. It was solo sailing, sailing with one guest, and two guests. Light -moderate air, occasional gusts, mid tide cycle currents. I found the info on the website very useful and accurate (Dave Scobies blog, another owners blog). My impression is that the boat is unusually responsive for a “ displacement” hull, if trim and balance is paid attention to: almost dinghy like.Solo, I kept myself as far forward as possible. A tiller extension is really required for this. With three I had one guest ride in the companionway. The two of of us in the cockpit were opposite next to cabin,heeled to leeward to keep sails full. I made the occasional dive to the windward side in gusts,hip to hip with the cockpit passenger. The boat sailed very well to windward with constant attention to sheeting. All gear was carefully stowed to maintain trim. No heavy stuff in cockpit lockers. Camping gear on aft part of bunk flat. But only as much as I could carry on my back. 2hp Honda OB on stern. For longer cruise I’d store it in cockpit locker. The boat is so handy that all docking and mooring was under sail. It’s clear to me that the boat needs both sails to balance well. Both blogs cover sail reduction sequence well. I will rig two part jiffy reefing on boom. And practice. In my experience It is essential to safety and seamanship to be able to reef quickly underway The new spectra lines make it possible to rig reefing with small diameter lines with little wind resistance. Even lazy jacks. The boat hove to well. We had to stop for a big freighter to be tug spun in the channel, and she looked right smart politely waiting. The Japanese crew was obviously relieved and waved from the bridge. The boat needed a little more main trim to heave to than I am used to but with practice it was fine. I would not load this boat down with piles of gear, at the risk of annihilating her best sailing qualities. Then she just becomes another squat tub. Ok for down wind but plan on motor sailing upwind. Overload in cockpit destroys windward ability. It’s pretty much over when you put 5-6 inches of transom in the water. If one is a gear heavy downwind passage sailor, a bigger boat might better serve. As one wishes, it’s a “free” country. Most of the modern cruising fleet is happy to plod along, and motor half the time…, so be it, as long as you are happy.That is not my particular preference. A note of grim humor: after a lot of sailing without incident, I managed to fall off the boat on the hard while exiting after final check for a three hundred mile tow home. Foot stool capsized and I rolled on top of it. Hurts much more than falling in water, BTW. Regards, Ed, M-15 375 Murrelet. Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 4, 2021, at 11:43 AM, jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> wrote:
Dave's right; the 17 is a bit faster because of the length, and you can take more stuff with you. With the 15, you need to catch more fish.
jerry
Unfortunately, there is no way to lighten the wine load if you're avoiding marina stops. Only leaving the wine behind would work and that would simply be uncivilized IMHO. :-) Mark Dvorscak M15 AD (After David) (those who sailed in Larry Yake's SJ cruises will understand) M23 Faith (no wine supply worries here) On Thu, Aug 5, 2021, 12:27 <casioqv@usermail.com> wrote:
One can always use 'ultralight backpacking' methods to provision an M15 for a long trip. People regularly do week long trips with only 10lbs of supplies + 5lb/day water and 1-2lb/day of dehydrated food... and it's even easier in an M15 since you don't need a tent, sleeping pad, or extreme cold sleeping bag! A watermaker or filter (for fresh water) could even reduce the water weight for long trips. There's also a lot of good advice out there on kayak camping, which is highly applicable to the M15. There's really no reason to carry heavy cargo for long cruises on an M15.
I took this $12 online course from Cape Falcon Kayak on packing for kayak trips, which helped me drastically reduce the weight when doing longer trips on my M15:
https://cape-falcon-kayak.thinkific.com/courses/lightweight-camping-for-kaya...
Sincerely, Tyler
----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Epifani" <edepifani@hotmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 11:26:09 AM Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17
I have no experience with the 17 so I’ll not comment on that. I just finished a week of sailing boot camp on my M-15 on Humboldt bay in Nor Cal. It was solo sailing, sailing with one guest, and two guests. Light -moderate air, occasional gusts, mid tide cycle currents. I found the info on the website very useful and accurate (Dave Scobies blog, another owners blog). My impression is that the boat is unusually responsive for a “ displacement” hull, if trim and balance is paid attention to: almost dinghy like.Solo, I kept myself as far forward as possible. A tiller extension is really required for this. With three I had one guest ride in the companionway. The two of of us in the cockpit were opposite next to cabin,heeled to leeward to keep sails full. I made the occasional dive to the windward side in gusts,hip to hip with the cockpit passenger. The boat sailed very well to windward with constant attention to sheeting. All gear was carefully stowed to maintain trim. No heavy stuff in cockpit lockers. Camping gear on aft part of bunk flat. But only as much as I could carry on my back. 2hp Honda OB on stern. For longer cruise I’d store it in cockpit locker. The boat is so handy that all docking and mooring was under sail. It’s clear to me that the boat needs both sails to balance well. Both blogs cover sail reduction sequence well. I will rig two part jiffy reefing on boom. And practice. In my experience It is essential to safety and seamanship to be able to reef quickly underway The new spectra lines make it possible to rig reefing with small diameter lines with little wind resistance. Even lazy jacks. The boat hove to well. We had to stop for a big freighter to be tug spun in the channel, and she looked right smart politely waiting. The Japanese crew was obviously relieved and waved from the bridge. The boat needed a little more main trim to heave to than I am used to but with practice it was fine. I would not load this boat down with piles of gear, at the risk of annihilating her best sailing qualities. Then she just becomes another squat tub. Ok for down wind but plan on motor sailing upwind. Overload in cockpit destroys windward ability. It’s pretty much over when you put 5-6 inches of transom in the water. If one is a gear heavy downwind passage sailor, a bigger boat might better serve. As one wishes, it’s a “free” country. Most of the modern cruising fleet is happy to plod along, and motor half the time…, so be it, as long as you are happy.That is not my particular preference. A note of grim humor: after a lot of sailing without incident, I managed to fall off the boat on the hard while exiting after final check for a three hundred mile tow home. Foot stool capsized and I rolled on top of it. Hurts much more than falling in water, BTW. Regards, Ed, M-15 375 Murrelet. Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 4, 2021, at 11:43 AM, jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> wrote:
Dave's right; the 17 is a bit faster because of the length, and you can take more stuff with you. With the 15, you need to catch more fish.
jerry
I totally forgot about the wine load, I guess I'll need a bigger boat after all. Tyler ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Dvorscak" <mdvorscak56@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 3:13:01 PM Subject: M_Boats: Packing light - M15 Unfortunately, there is no way to lighten the wine load if you're avoiding marina stops. Only leaving the wine behind would work and that would simply be uncivilized IMHO. :-) Mark Dvorscak M15 AD (After David) (those who sailed in Larry Yake's SJ cruises will understand) M23 Faith (no wine supply worries here) On Thu, Aug 5, 2021, 12:27 <casioqv@usermail.com> wrote:
One can always use 'ultralight backpacking' methods to provision an M15 for a long trip. People regularly do week long trips with only 10lbs of supplies + 5lb/day water and 1-2lb/day of dehydrated food... and it's even easier in an M15 since you don't need a tent, sleeping pad, or extreme cold sleeping bag! A watermaker or filter (for fresh water) could even reduce the water weight for long trips. There's also a lot of good advice out there on kayak camping, which is highly applicable to the M15. There's really no reason to carry heavy cargo for long cruises on an M15.
I took this $12 online course from Cape Falcon Kayak on packing for kayak trips, which helped me drastically reduce the weight when doing longer trips on my M15:
https://cape-falcon-kayak.thinkific.com/courses/lightweight-camping-for-kaya...
Sincerely, Tyler
----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Epifani" <edepifani@hotmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 11:26:09 AM Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17
I have no experience with the 17 so I’ll not comment on that. I just finished a week of sailing boot camp on my M-15 on Humboldt bay in Nor Cal. It was solo sailing, sailing with one guest, and two guests. Light -moderate air, occasional gusts, mid tide cycle currents. I found the info on the website very useful and accurate (Dave Scobies blog, another owners blog). My impression is that the boat is unusually responsive for a “ displacement” hull, if trim and balance is paid attention to: almost dinghy like.Solo, I kept myself as far forward as possible. A tiller extension is really required for this. With three I had one guest ride in the companionway. The two of of us in the cockpit were opposite next to cabin,heeled to leeward to keep sails full. I made the occasional dive to the windward side in gusts,hip to hip with the cockpit passenger. The boat sailed very well to windward with constant attention to sheeting. All gear was carefully stowed to maintain trim. No heavy stuff in cockpit lockers. Camping gear on aft part of bunk flat. But only as much as I could carry on my back. 2hp Honda OB on stern. For longer cruise I’d store it in cockpit locker. The boat is so handy that all docking and mooring was under sail. It’s clear to me that the boat needs both sails to balance well. Both blogs cover sail reduction sequence well. I will rig two part jiffy reefing on boom. And practice. In my experience It is essential to safety and seamanship to be able to reef quickly underway The new spectra lines make it possible to rig reefing with small diameter lines with little wind resistance. Even lazy jacks. The boat hove to well. We had to stop for a big freighter to be tug spun in the channel, and she looked right smart politely waiting. The Japanese crew was obviously relieved and waved from the bridge. The boat needed a little more main trim to heave to than I am used to but with practice it was fine. I would not load this boat down with piles of gear, at the risk of annihilating her best sailing qualities. Then she just becomes another squat tub. Ok for down wind but plan on motor sailing upwind. Overload in cockpit destroys windward ability. It’s pretty much over when you put 5-6 inches of transom in the water. If one is a gear heavy downwind passage sailor, a bigger boat might better serve. As one wishes, it’s a “free” country. Most of the modern cruising fleet is happy to plod along, and motor half the time…, so be it, as long as you are happy.That is not my particular preference. A note of grim humor: after a lot of sailing without incident, I managed to fall off the boat on the hard while exiting after final check for a three hundred mile tow home. Foot stool capsized and I rolled on top of it. Hurts much more than falling in water, BTW. Regards, Ed, M-15 375 Murrelet. Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 4, 2021, at 11:43 AM, jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> wrote:
Dave's right; the 17 is a bit faster because of the length, and you can take more stuff with you. With the 15, you need to catch more fish.
jerry
Box wine, no glass weight. Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 6, 2021, at 6:42 AM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
I totally forgot about the wine load, I guess I'll need a bigger boat after all.
Tyler
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Dvorscak" <mdvorscak56@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 3:13:01 PM Subject: M_Boats: Packing light - M15
Unfortunately, there is no way to lighten the wine load if you're avoiding marina stops. Only leaving the wine behind would work and that would simply be uncivilized IMHO. :-)
Mark Dvorscak M15 AD (After David) (those who sailed in Larry Yake's SJ cruises will understand) M23 Faith (no wine supply worries here)
On Thu, Aug 5, 2021, 12:27 <casioqv@usermail.com> wrote:
One can always use 'ultralight backpacking' methods to provision an M15 for a long trip. People regularly do week long trips with only 10lbs of supplies + 5lb/day water and 1-2lb/day of dehydrated food... and it's even easier in an M15 since you don't need a tent, sleeping pad, or extreme cold sleeping bag! A watermaker or filter (for fresh water) could even reduce the water weight for long trips. There's also a lot of good advice out there on kayak camping, which is highly applicable to the M15. There's really no reason to carry heavy cargo for long cruises on an M15.
I took this $12 online course from Cape Falcon Kayak on packing for kayak trips, which helped me drastically reduce the weight when doing longer trips on my M15:
https://cape-falcon-kayak.thinkific.com/courses/lightweight-camping-for-kaya...
Sincerely, Tyler
----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Epifani" <edepifani@hotmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 11:26:09 AM Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17
I have no experience with the 17 so I’ll not comment on that. I just finished a week of sailing boot camp on my M-15 on Humboldt bay in Nor Cal. It was solo sailing, sailing with one guest, and two guests. Light -moderate air, occasional gusts, mid tide cycle currents. I found the info on the website very useful and accurate (Dave Scobies blog, another owners blog). My impression is that the boat is unusually responsive for a “ displacement” hull, if trim and balance is paid attention to: almost dinghy like.Solo, I kept myself as far forward as possible. A tiller extension is really required for this. With three I had one guest ride in the companionway. The two of of us in the cockpit were opposite next to cabin,heeled to leeward to keep sails full. I made the occasional dive to the windward side in gusts,hip to hip with the cockpit passenger. The boat sailed very well to windward with constant attention to sheeting. All gear was carefully stowed to maintain trim. No heavy stuff in cockpit lockers. Camping gear on aft part of bunk flat. But only as much as I could carry on my back. 2hp Honda OB on stern. For longer cruise I’d store it in cockpit locker. The boat is so handy that all docking and mooring was under sail. It’s clear to me that the boat needs both sails to balance well. Both blogs cover sail reduction sequence well. I will rig two part jiffy reefing on boom. And practice. In my experience It is essential to safety and seamanship to be able to reef quickly underway The new spectra lines make it possible to rig reefing with small diameter lines with little wind resistance. Even lazy jacks. The boat hove to well. We had to stop for a big freighter to be tug spun in the channel, and she looked right smart politely waiting. The Japanese crew was obviously relieved and waved from the bridge. The boat needed a little more main trim to heave to than I am used to but with practice it was fine. I would not load this boat down with piles of gear, at the risk of annihilating her best sailing qualities. Then she just becomes another squat tub. Ok for down wind but plan on motor sailing upwind. Overload in cockpit destroys windward ability. It’s pretty much over when you put 5-6 inches of transom in the water. If one is a gear heavy downwind passage sailor, a bigger boat might better serve. As one wishes, it’s a “free” country. Most of the modern cruising fleet is happy to plod along, and motor half the time…, so be it, as long as you are happy.That is not my particular preference. A note of grim humor: after a lot of sailing without incident, I managed to fall off the boat on the hard while exiting after final check for a three hundred mile tow home. Foot stool capsized and I rolled on top of it. Hurts much more than falling in water, BTW. Regards, Ed, M-15 375 Murrelet. Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 4, 2021, at 11:43 AM, jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> wrote:
Dave's right; the 17 is a bit faster because of the length, and you can take more stuff with you. With the 15, you need to catch more fish.
jerry
Agree on the box wine. Also no breakage concerns. Still no way to reduce the weight of the wine itself. Besides, a bottle or two of the good stuff is especially delightful at anchor. On Fri, Aug 6, 2021, 09:21 Edward Epifani <edepifani@hotmail.com> wrote:
Box wine, no glass weight.
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 6, 2021, at 6:42 AM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
I totally forgot about the wine load, I guess I'll need a bigger boat after all.
Tyler
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Dvorscak" <mdvorscak56@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 3:13:01 PM Subject: M_Boats: Packing light - M15
Unfortunately, there is no way to lighten the wine load if you're avoiding marina stops. Only leaving the wine behind would work and that would simply be uncivilized IMHO. :-)
Mark Dvorscak M15 AD (After David) (those who sailed in Larry Yake's SJ cruises will understand) M23 Faith (no wine supply worries here)
On Thu, Aug 5, 2021, 12:27 <casioqv@usermail.com> wrote:
One can always use 'ultralight backpacking' methods to provision an M15 for a long trip. People regularly do week long trips with only 10lbs of supplies + 5lb/day water and 1-2lb/day of dehydrated food... and it's even easier in an M15 since you don't need a tent, sleeping pad, or extreme cold sleeping bag! A watermaker or filter (for fresh water) could even reduce the water weight for long trips. There's also a lot of good advice out there on kayak camping, which is highly applicable to the M15. There's really no reason to carry heavy cargo for long cruises on an M15.
I took this $12 online course from Cape Falcon Kayak on packing for kayak trips, which helped me drastically reduce the weight when doing longer trips on my M15:
https://cape-falcon-kayak.thinkific.com/courses/lightweight-camping-for-kaya...
Sincerely, Tyler
----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Epifani" <edepifani@hotmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, August 5, 2021 11:26:09 AM Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 or M17
I have no experience with the 17 so I’ll not comment on that. I just finished a week of sailing boot camp on my M-15 on Humboldt bay
in
Nor Cal. It was solo sailing, sailing with one guest, and two guests. Light -moderate air, occasional gusts, mid tide cycle currents. I found the info on the website very useful and accurate (Dave Scobies blog, another owners blog). My impression is that the boat is unusually responsive for a “ displacement” hull, if trim and balance is paid attention to: almost dinghy like.Solo, I kept myself as far forward as possible. A tiller extension is really required for this. With three I had one guest ride in the companionway. The two of of us in the cockpit were opposite next to cabin,heeled to leeward to keep sails full. I made the occasional dive to the windward side in gusts,hip to hip with the cockpit passenger. The boat sailed very well to windward with constant attention to sheeting. All gear was carefully stowed to maintain trim. No heavy stuff in cockpit lockers. Camping gear on aft part of bunk flat. But only as much as I could carry on my back. 2hp Honda OB on stern. For longer cruise I’d store it in cockpit locker. The boat is so handy that all docking and mooring was under sail. It’s clear to me that the boat needs both sails to balance well. Both blogs cover sail reduction sequence well. I will rig two part jiffy reefing on boom. And practice. In my experience It is essential to safety and seamanship to be able to reef quickly underway The new spectra lines make it possible to rig reefing with small diameter lines with little wind resistance. Even lazy jacks. The boat hove to well. We had to stop for a big freighter to be tug spun in the channel, and she looked right smart politely waiting. The Japanese crew was obviously relieved and waved from the bridge. The boat needed a little more main trim to heave to than I am used to but with practice it was fine. I would not load this boat down with piles of gear, at the risk of annihilating her best sailing qualities. Then she just becomes another squat tub. Ok for down wind but plan on motor sailing upwind. Overload in cockpit destroys windward ability. It’s pretty much over when you put 5-6 inches of transom in the water. If one is a gear heavy downwind passage sailor, a bigger boat might better serve. As one wishes, it’s a “free” country. Most of the modern cruising fleet is happy to plod along, and motor half the time…, so be it, as long as you are happy.That is not my particular preference. A note of grim humor: after a lot of sailing without incident, I managed to fall off the boat on the hard while exiting after final check for a three hundred mile tow home. Foot stool capsized and I rolled on top of it. Hurts much more than falling in water, BTW. Regards, Ed, M-15 375 Murrelet. Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 4, 2021, at 11:43 AM, jerry montgomery <jmbn1@outlook.com> wrote:
Dave's right; the 17 is a bit faster because of the length, and you can take more stuff with you. With the 15, you need to catch more fish.
jerry
FWIW IME Brian the Cape Falcon guy is pretty solid with experience. I met him just before the pandemic kicked in to demo one of his kayak designs (based on the legendary Coaster by Mariner, but with some mods and skin on frame of course). I want to try his canoes. Don't know his course contents, but the outline looks fairly thorough. I've also been a lightweight backpacker and spring ski tourer and done canoe and kayak tripping, all with a minimalist approach, so anyone feel free to hit me up for advice on keeping it simple. On the relatively few multi-day liveaboards I've done with my M17 so far, I am still trying to figure out what to do with all that extra empty space... :-) cheers, John On 8/5/21 12:26 PM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
One can always use 'ultralight backpacking' methods to provision an M15 for a long trip. People regularly do week long trips with only 10lbs of supplies + 5lb/day water and 1-2lb/day of dehydrated food... and it's even easier in an M15 since you don't need a tent, sleeping pad, or extreme cold sleeping bag! A watermaker or filter (for fresh water) could even reduce the water weight for long trips. There's also a lot of good advice out there on kayak camping, which is highly applicable to the M15. There's really no reason to carry heavy cargo for long cruises on an M15.
I took this $12 online course from Cape Falcon Kayak on packing for kayak trips, which helped me drastically reduce the weight when doing longer trips on my M15: https://cape-falcon-kayak.thinkific.com/courses/lightweight-camping-for-kaya...
Sincerely, Tyler
----- Original Message -----
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Yeah nobody actually said why are the winches canted. Jerry? Dave? Bob? I don't know why for sure, but from the way the sheets run and the coaming sits etc. I have assumed it's for improving the direction and/or angle of the sheets vs. the winch. How the sheets run on and off the winch, etc. If they were flat on the coaming I think the angles would not be so good, regardless of where the blocks were. And probably they can't be perfect for every location of jib sheet blocks so in some cases the angle isn't so great...? cheers John : Winches on my M17
I have a M17 Hull #502 built in 1993. I sailed her for a number of years and could never figure out why the winches are canted out. My wife and I barrel race on Barnegat Bay in NJ and have a difficult time trimming the 150 jib as the line is always crossed over. Any comments on crew positioning are welcome. Thanks
-- Best Regards,
Bob Goodyear rbgoodyear@gmail.com 732.684.1738 c
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
The problem is caused by the coamings being so hi. The tilting was a suggestion of Lyle Hess aimed at being a compromise. A good crew learns to work things after wrapping a time or two. Not a big problem, but can be annoying. If I were doing it over, i'd use a 7/8 rig, like the Sage 17, which has the shrouds raked aft, allowing a larger working jib The lack of height of the fractional jib is compensated for by using a taller rig.. The Sage is more similar to the tall rig M-17 in terms of area and heeling moment, but is stiffer because of the carbon deck. The winches, as well as the jib fairlead cars, go on the cabintop. The 150 or larger sheets are still sheeted on the rail but by the time the sheets got up to the cabintop the angle is more easy to live with. Cabintop winches are faster and easier for the crew. Lyle designed the rig for the m-17 from my sketches, so that's on me. In the early 70's masthead rigs were all the rage because of the IOR rule, which favored them; that's why I favored it. Quit complaining! jerry ________________________________ From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 3, 2021 8:29 PM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: Winches on my M17 Yeah nobody actually said why are the winches canted. Jerry? Dave? Bob? I don't know why for sure, but from the way the sheets run and the coaming sits etc. I have assumed it's for improving the direction and/or angle of the sheets vs. the winch. How the sheets run on and off the winch, etc. If they were flat on the coaming I think the angles would not be so good, regardless of where the blocks were. And probably they can't be perfect for every location of jib sheet blocks so in some cases the angle isn't so great...? cheers John : Winches on my M17
I have a M17 Hull #502 built in 1993. I sailed her for a number of years and could never figure out why the winches are canted out. My wife and I barrel race on Barnegat Bay in NJ and have a difficult time trimming the 150 jib as the line is always crossed over. Any comments on crew positioning are welcome. Thanks
-- Best Regards,
Bob Goodyear rbgoodyear@gmail.com 732.684.1738 c
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
participants (12)
-
Bob Eeg -
casioqv＠usermail.com -
Charles Adams -
Conbert Benneck -
Dave Scobie -
Edward Epifani -
jerry montgomery -
John Schinnerer -
Mark Dvorscak -
Peter Zimowsky -
Robert Goodyear -
swwheatley＠comcast.net