Robbin: Having been to the Chesapeake a few times, I can say that the only time my rudder has grounded has been out there. A lot of Bay is shallow (even a mile or so from shore). In fact, that was probably the biggest surprise I got from the Bay. How shallow much of it is. While the M17 rudder does raise and lower, even when the rudder is all the way up, it's the first part of the boat to "find land". If the Bay was home a kick up rudder might be nice. The M15's come that way. Short of making your own (doable), Ida Sailer might be the way to go. As for the tiller, it sounds like yours may be laminated, and if so, as long as you clean up the old joint so the epoxy has something to stick to, it should be fine. You gotta be careful not to over clamp it or else you will squeeze out the glue and you will get a weak joint. Mine tiller was one piece, but it too split. So I made a new one. http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n165/haudsley/200209181932166-1.jpg In one of the Pardey books, I read where Larry's test of a tiller was to block it up on both ends and be able to jump up and down on it in the middle. So I made mine out of a piece of quarter sawn white oak. It passed the jump test and I weigh 200 pounds. I was reminded of this recently when I read the account of Charlie Whipple and "Resolution". When he made it topsides, he still had time to save her, except he found his tiller had snapped (it had been lashed for self-steering). So he had no way to steer the boat off the rocks. As is often the case, sounds like Larry was right again.

Something else I've thought of with Idasailor..... http://www.idasailor.com/catalog/product_info.php? cPath=45&products_id=466 Marketing claims aside, as Jerry has pointed out, the M17 rudder is an important component of the boat that allows upwind performance. It is more than just a steering device. It's a lifting foil. Not sure if their kickup rudder has this same quality. If so, great. If not, perhaps they should offer JM a consulting fee to work with them to make it so? If you have not read this from the msog.org........I assume it is as true today as it was a few years ago when Jerry wrote it.... "A 17 with the mast raked properly loads the rudder to the point where it is an important lifting plane, thus the depth and aspect ratio, which are extreme compared to your average short, fat cruising boat. Believe you me, I've taken a lot of static over the years from owners that have taken off their rudders on rocks, stumps, sea monsters, etc, but the depth and the rake of the rudder is one of the keys to the boat's performance. The 17 is really an outstanding boat upwind for its length and the foils are one of the major reasons. I started racing the 17 soon after we started building it, and did well from the start, and when I went to the race in Leach Lake, MN, which at that time was touted as the largest trailerable boat race in the world, in the late 70's, I was sailing on a 23 at the invitation of (?) I can't remember his name, but I can remember his face and that he was a great guy. There were several 17's in the race and I was greatly disturbed by the fact that that they all thought that the 17 was a strong, seaworthy boat, but was a little on the slow side. This was a definate attack on my ego. I picked out the 17 with the best suit of sails and spent a couple of hours tuning his mast. The next day (the second day of racing, of three, I think) he blew away his competition in his class (a "horizon job"). It's all in the relationship between the sailplan and the foils. There is probably an appropriate analogy in low- speed airplanes. If your wing (which bears most of the load) was necessarily short and of low aspect, for structural or whatever reasons, but the aft wing (aileron?) could be of high aspect, the designer could probably, to advantage, distribute the weight so that the plane would fly level when the tail wing was angled up a little, to keep the plane flying level. The important thing is that while keeping the plane flying level it would also contribute to the lift of the plane. Does this make sense to you, an airplane guy? On a boat, I look at this as "loading up the rudder", and when things are just right it makes a remarkable difference in the upwind performance of the boat. Upwind, at a high angle of incidence, a highly raked mast, so that the leach and the luff of the sail are close to equal in terms of plus and minus angles, has more lift. Optimum tuning comes when the properly raked mast creates a light and controllable weather helm on the rudder, changing the rudder from a mere controling surface to a lifting surface. Pointing higher and going faster, as they say."

Tim: Good looking job on the rudders! If the holes in the laminated tiller are just drilled into the wood, it's no great surprise they would stress it out and split. Try drilling the holes out oversize and backfill with thickened epoxy. If the bolts are maybe 5/16's, I'd make the hole at least 5/8" or even 3/4". Put blue masking tape on one side, and pour into the other. Leave the pour a little proud to allow for shrinkage and sand it down flush when it cures. The tape side will already be flush. Once the thickened (wood flour for color and fumed silica - not thick enough to hold shape, but thick) epoxy sets up, drill out the holes for the bolts. The stress will all be on the epoxy bushing and not on the tiller....and it won't rot. BTW, a lamination made with epoxy cannot be tightly clamped. If you are going to do that, use glue...preferably resorcinol. Tightly clamped epoxy joints don't have much strength. But with some gap in the joint, epoxy is probably stronger than anything, but if finished bright, has to have several coats of varnish to avoid UV degradation of the epoxy. To make curved laminations with epoxy, you have to clamp it tight to take the curve, so I use something in the epoxy as a gap spacer to prevent squeeze out. The something I prefer is 30/100 sized walnut shell. Very fine sand might also work, but will play hell with any planes or sanders you use to sand the tiller smooth. Probably better to use resorcinol in the first place. On Aug 9, 2008, at 10:10 AM, Tim Diebert wrote:

"While the M17 rudder does raise and lower, even when the rudder is all the way up, it's the first part of the boat to "find land". If the Bay was home a kick up rudder might be nice. The M15's come that way. Short of making your own (doable), Ida Sailer might be the way to go."

This made me chuckle. I made a nice new rudder last winter and although I had never touched on my 17....the first sail with the new rudder and I did exactly that. DOAH!!

...at least it was just sand and a few small rocks.

http://www.timtone.com/monty/rudder.htm

The rudder on my previous boat was hinged and worked very well. I would have no reservations about having one again, but for the M17 I took the easy way out and made a one piece unit instead. This might give you some ideas if you were going to make a lifting version.

http://www.timtone.com/tt/ttphotos/images/RudderStockandRudder.jpg

As for tillers, I have made many. I always thought the laminating order was right and wrong at the same time. It makes sense for the laminates to be horizontal in order to follow the form or shape of the tiller. But in terms of strength, the holes to attach the tiller to the rudder are usually horizontal....and this is a good place for any degradation to start. With horizontal laminations and horizontal holes it is not a great combination in that regard. Having your laminates stacked so the glue lines are vertical makes more sense to me, but then you have the force that is exerted on the tiller during use that is against the more vulnerable lamination. Around and around we go. On bigger tillers I have done a taper laminated style, with horizontal laminates, but set a few recessed through-bolts vertically through the laminates as a back up.

Cheers, Tim.

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Beautiful tiller, Tim.

Thanks.

Thanks to everyone that had suggestions about my split tiller. It was comforting to know that I was not the only one with this issue. After looking at the price for an Ida rudder/tiller, I have glued the split laminate with urethane glue, over drilled the blot holes and filled with epoxy and will drill out to correct size to repair the current tiller. I also have some left over red oak stair nosing to craft a new tiller that should not split but the old tiller will need to fill in for a bit. I am missing a good day on the bay and don't intend to miss any more if possible. I have searched the archives and knocked about the web sites but could not find the weight of the M-8 (7' 11") listed anywhere. Any M-boaters know the weight and is this an easy car toppable boat? I can heft about a good deal of weight but for instance my CD-10 takes a few of us to carry to the beach! Thanks again, Robbin