Just to make absolutely clear: I was not espousing towing a Flicka in the mountains with a Cherokee, nor was I addressing what vehicle should be used to tow a Flicka, period, just trying to emphasize the Cherokee's suitability for the M15 and M17. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Honshells" <chonshell@ia4u.net> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 4:11 PM Subject: Towing with Jeep Cherokee Definitely right, Scott: Instead of stating that the Cherokee pulls the Flicka, "no sweat", I should have been clear that we pull the boat only from the marina to her storage on flat Michigan terrain. I never meant to imply the Cherokee could handle a Flicka in the mountains, only that if a Cherokee could pull a Flicka, period, it should be able to handle the 15' or the 17' with ease. --Craig ----- Original Message ----- From: <Wilsometer@aol.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 1:14 AM Subject: Towing with Jeep Cherokee In a message dated 12/21/02 6:51:39 PM, chonshell@ia4u.net writes: << The automatic should tow either boat with no problems whatsoever. My Flicka is 6,000 lbs+ with trailer and my friend tows her with his 4.0 liter automatic Cherokee, no sweat. He has a transmission cooler. Unless the Cherokee has some sort of altitude problem (I rode in an Oldsmobile 98 that kept getting "vapor lock" in Winter Park, Co.), it should handle the load with ease and finesse. >> I agree that the Cherokee should handle either the M15 or M17 well--including the kind of mountain passes that Rich would encounter in his home territory. I also agree that the transmission cooler is a must with the automatic (some models/packages include a factory installed cooler, so check first to see what you have). I must, however, respectfully disagree that the Cherokee is up to the task of safely towing the likes of the Flicka (5500-6000# empty boat + 1200-1800# trailer + gear/fuel/provisions). My friend's Flicka (diesel) on his tandem axle trailer tips the scales at about 8000 lbs. The 4.0 litre straight six (especially the later versions) have good power and torque, and may well be capable of moving such loads on level or slightly rolling terrain, but I sincerely doubt that the transmission, brakes, or the uni-body construction of the Jeep is up to 700-800 tongue weight/7500-8000 gross weight while climbing/descending western mountain passes. Towing more than twice the tow vehicle's weight on any kind of sustained descent is going to be at best frightening, and at worst, disastrous. I frequently tow a construction tractor on a flatbed trailer. I have weighed this setup at 8200lbs. I use a 6100# Ford F350 with a 300hp V8 to pull this, and in spite of carefully adjusted electric brakes, really have to be careful that I don't overheat the brakes when descending any kind of hill, and that I leave a whole lot more stopping distance (and this truck has huge Dayton brakes with dual piston calipers made for hauling heavy loads--the truck has a 9800# GVW, and a 16000# GCVWR). I have used my V-6 Ranger (roughly comparable to the Jeep in weight and power) to move this setup around the job site, but I can't imagine taking this package on the road. It is obvious that the trailer brakes are doing almost all of the work, and the engine is laboring to get things rolling. Towing vehicles/capacities are a topic of great passion on this list, and I don't wish to step on anyone's toes. I do believe, however, that what works for someone moving a boat from home to the ramp over flat terrain may be a disaster for someone contemplating crossing the Rockies, Sierras, Cascades, or even local steep hills. While others have argued otherwise, I believe in observing the manufacturer's maximum tow ratings as well as the maximum Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Rating (GCVWR) when considering a tow vehicle. At very least, I think we should be careful about generalizations as to the suitability of any particular vehicle, and should carefully consider the specific conditions to be encountered. Respectfully, Scott Grometer M15, #478 'bebe'