Took my inaugural sail on Pajarita, my recently purchased '74 M17, today. My sailing pal Keith (Ranger 20 "Stoke" - yep, he's also a surfer) was along to help rig and test her out. What a sweet boat! Was at Lake of the Woods, in the highlands/mountains a bit east of Medford/Ashland area in southern Oregon. A mild and sunny late summer day with light to medium winds and an occasional fresh breeze, the latter pushing us up to near hull speed with the small jib and full main. Some interesting discoveries and other comments: Boat came with extra mainsheet type line and block rig for solo mast raising, and with mainsail and sheet/blocks already on boom with sail cover on. So I rigged it up as it was. Then I was wondering why in only a moderate breeze the main sheet took so much muscle to sheet in, didn't seem right compared to any other boat I've sailed. Took a closer look and noticed the block setup was only 3 turns. Took a second look at the alleged mast raising block/line and it is 4 turns, and less bulky to boot. I can only assume the former owner was sailing with the mast raising tackle, and had the mainsheet tackle in the mast raising gear bucket...! The main and jib halyards are nice color coded line - green halyard for main/stbd, red for jib/port - but they're in the opposite sheaves they should be at masthead! Not tangled...just need to be pulled and swapped port/stbd (they are even color coded, ). Worked around it by just cleating the halyards on the "wrong" sides for now. The boat sat with the CB line apparently wrapped quite tight around the CB winch for quite a while (boat was stored for ~1.5 years before I bought it). The line against the winch appears to have gotten compacted and smoothed and slips quite a bit while trying to raise the CB, even with 4 turns on the winch. This is exacerbated by use of a poorly placed and nearly too small jam cleat with too tight of fairlead to secure the CB line, and a rather flimsy plastic winch handle that is also too long to turn 360 deg. without hitting CB trunk, and a CB winch that doesn't seem to have the function of letting the handle ratchet back and forth as it turns the winch. The flex in the transom at the (nice stainless, adjustable, spring-loaded) motor mount with the Tohatsu 6hp SailPro is not IMO sustainable. Just sitting still with the motor raised, even, if the boat bounces in a little chop. Flex, flex, flex.... Not to mention actually motoring! There is a backing plate inside the hull, but a poorly done one. The flex/stress on the transom due to motor weight is more a concern for me than trim issues due to the weight. Also, at something less than half throttle I think we were pretty much at hull speed (with CB down no less). Cranking up the throttle led to stern settling and even more flex/stress on the mount/transom. So that motor seems like significant overkill for an M17. I could mount it direct in cutout but then there's the rudder/motor/prop interference issue. Just read a rave review of the motor as being more than adequate for a 3000 lb. boat sailing in the San Juans' current-laden waters. The boat came with the mahogany one piece rudder, the original I assume. What a long blade! I couldn't even put the rudder on at the dock, too shallow, even though plenty of depth for the keel with CB up. Anyone know what the draft is on the one-piece rudder? Anyhow I need to do something about that long fixed rudder, and whatever I do has to cost way less than the $600+ Ruddercraft and the like. Anyone have plans/diagrams/photos for a DIY kick-up conversion? All for now. Love the boat so far! She's in a short-term slip at the small marina and will see some more sailing Saturday, maybe Friday also, maybe even Sunday. cheers, John S. -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
On 9/24/2015 1:35 AM, John Schinnerer wrote: Congratulations John on your first sail with your new M17. Half the fun of owning a boat is fixing things, or making improvement in its intended use. Your description of what you found in your first sail, sound mostly minor, and a quick fix for someone with your know-how and capabilities. "What a sweet boat" is a great description. Have fun; go sailing; and don't forget to take your tool box along....! Connie
Took my inaugural sail on Pajarita, my recently purchased '74 M17, today. My sailing pal Keith (Ranger 20 "Stoke" - yep, he's also a surfer) was along to help rig and test her out. What a sweet boat! Was at Lake of the Woods, in the highlands/mountains a bit east of Medford/Ashland area in southern Oregon. A mild and sunny late summer day with light to medium winds and an occasional fresh breeze, the latter pushing us up to near hull speed with the small jib and full main.
Some interesting discoveries and other comments:
Boat came with extra mainsheet type line and block rig for solo mast raising, and with mainsail and sheet/blocks already on boom with sail cover on. So I rigged it up as it was. Then I was wondering why in only a moderate breeze the main sheet took so much muscle to sheet in, didn't seem right compared to any other boat I've sailed. Took a closer look and noticed the block setup was only 3 turns. Took a second look at the alleged mast raising block/line and it is 4 turns, and less bulky to boot. I can only assume the former owner was sailing with the mast raising tackle, and had the mainsheet tackle in the mast raising gear bucket...!
The main and jib halyards are nice color coded line - green halyard for main/stbd, red for jib/port - but they're in the opposite sheaves they should be at masthead! Not tangled...just need to be pulled and swapped port/stbd (they are even color coded, ). Worked around it by just cleating the halyards on the "wrong" sides for now.
The boat sat with the CB line apparently wrapped quite tight around the CB winch for quite a while (boat was stored for ~1.5 years before I bought it). The line against the winch appears to have gotten compacted and smoothed and slips quite a bit while trying to raise the CB, even with 4 turns on the winch. This is exacerbated by use of a poorly placed and nearly too small jam cleat with too tight of fairlead to secure the CB line, and a rather flimsy plastic winch handle that is also too long to turn 360 deg. without hitting CB trunk, and a CB winch that doesn't seem to have the function of letting the handle ratchet back and forth as it turns the winch.
The flex in the transom at the (nice stainless, adjustable, spring-loaded) motor mount with the Tohatsu 6hp SailPro is not IMO sustainable. Just sitting still with the motor raised, even, if the boat bounces in a little chop. Flex, flex, flex.... Not to mention actually motoring! There is a backing plate inside the hull, but a poorly done one. The flex/stress on the transom due to motor weight is more a concern for me than trim issues due to the weight.
Also, at something less than half throttle I think we were pretty much at hull speed (with CB down no less). Cranking up the throttle led to stern settling and even more flex/stress on the mount/transom. So that motor seems like significant overkill for an M17. I could mount it direct in cutout but then there's the rudder/motor/prop interference issue. Just read a rave review of the motor as being more than adequate for a 3000 lb. boat sailing in the San Juans' current-laden waters.
The boat came with the mahogany one piece rudder, the original I assume. What a long blade! I couldn't even put the rudder on at the dock, too shallow, even though plenty of depth for the keel with CB up. Anyone know what the draft is on the one-piece rudder? Anyhow I need to do something about that long fixed rudder, and whatever I do has to cost way less than the $600+ Ruddercraft and the like. Anyone have plans/diagrams/photos for a DIY kick-up conversion?
All for now. Love the boat so far! She's in a short-term slip at the small marina and will see some more sailing Saturday, maybe Friday also, maybe even Sunday.
cheers, John S.
John,,,, For your rudder fix, try JOWoodworks.com and talk to John Owens..... does excellent work and price is right, and while he does other stuff as handrails, hatch covers, etc etc, Rudders and daggers are his main forte. Bill Tosh www.tcboats.com -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Conbert Benneck Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 8:19 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Splashed Pajarita today! On 9/24/2015 1:35 AM, John Schinnerer wrote: Congratulations John on your first sail with your new M17. Half the fun of owning a boat is fixing things, or making improvement in its intended use. Your description of what you found in your first sail, sound mostly minor, and a quick fix for someone with your know-how and capabilities. "What a sweet boat" is a great description. Have fun; go sailing; and don't forget to take your tool box along....! Connie
Took my inaugural sail on Pajarita, my recently purchased '74 M17, today. My sailing pal Keith (Ranger 20 "Stoke" - yep, he's also a surfer) was along to help rig and test her out. What a sweet boat! Was at Lake of the Woods, in the highlands/mountains a bit east of Medford/Ashland area in southern Oregon. A mild and sunny late summer day with light to medium winds and an occasional fresh breeze, the latter pushing us up to near hull speed with the small jib and full main.
Some interesting discoveries and other comments:
Boat came with extra mainsheet type line and block rig for solo mast raising, and with mainsail and sheet/blocks already on boom with sail cover on. So I rigged it up as it was. Then I was wondering why in only a moderate breeze the main sheet took so much muscle to sheet in, didn't seem right compared to any other boat I've sailed. Took a closer look and noticed the block setup was only 3 turns. Took a second look at the alleged mast raising block/line and it is 4 turns, and less bulky to boot. I can only assume the former owner was sailing with the mast raising tackle, and had the mainsheet tackle in the mast raising gear bucket...!
The main and jib halyards are nice color coded line - green halyard for main/stbd, red for jib/port - but they're in the opposite sheaves they should be at masthead! Not tangled...just need to be pulled and swapped port/stbd (they are even color coded, ). Worked around it by just cleating the halyards on the "wrong" sides for now.
The boat sat with the CB line apparently wrapped quite tight around the CB winch for quite a while (boat was stored for ~1.5 years before I bought it). The line against the winch appears to have gotten compacted and smoothed and slips quite a bit while trying to raise the CB, even with 4 turns on the winch. This is exacerbated by use of a poorly placed and nearly too small jam cleat with too tight of fairlead to secure the CB line, and a rather flimsy plastic winch handle that is also too long to turn 360 deg. without hitting CB trunk, and a CB winch that doesn't seem to have the function of letting the handle ratchet back and forth as it turns the winch.
The flex in the transom at the (nice stainless, adjustable, spring-loaded) motor mount with the Tohatsu 6hp SailPro is not IMO sustainable. Just sitting still with the motor raised, even, if the boat bounces in a little chop. Flex, flex, flex.... Not to mention actually motoring! There is a backing plate inside the hull, but a poorly done one. The flex/stress on the transom due to motor weight is more a concern for me than trim issues due to the weight.
Also, at something less than half throttle I think we were pretty much at hull speed (with CB down no less). Cranking up the throttle led to stern settling and even more flex/stress on the mount/transom. So that motor seems like significant overkill for an M17. I could mount it direct in cutout but then there's the rudder/motor/prop interference issue. Just read a rave review of the motor as being more than adequate for a 3000 lb. boat sailing in the San Juans' current-laden waters.
The boat came with the mahogany one piece rudder, the original I assume. What a long blade! I couldn't even put the rudder on at the dock, too shallow, even though plenty of depth for the keel with CB up. Anyone know what the draft is on the one-piece rudder? Anyhow I need to do something about that long fixed rudder, and whatever I do has to cost way less than the $600+ Ruddercraft and the like. Anyone have plans/diagrams/photos for a DIY kick-up conversion?
All for now. Love the boat so far! She's in a short-term slip at the small marina and will see some more sailing Saturday, maybe Friday also, maybe even Sunday.
cheers, John S.
John: One-piece rudder is not supposed to be fixed. The gudgeons (fittings attached to rudder) are supposed to slide up and down on the pintle rod (rod held in fittings attached to transom). To be frank, it is a kludgy set-up, but I am too cheap to buy a new rudder. After 2 years of fine tuning and a new pintle rod, I still cannot get mine to slide smoothly. Next step will be drilling the gudgeon holes a smidge larger. Hopefully that will do it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Tosh" <billt@eastex.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 9:49:56 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Splashed Pajarita today! John,,,, For your rudder fix, try JOWoodworks.com and talk to John Owens..... does excellent work and price is right, and while he does other stuff as handrails, hatch covers, etc etc, Rudders and daggers are his main forte. Bill Tosh www.tcboats.com -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Conbert Benneck Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 8:19 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Splashed Pajarita today! On 9/24/2015 1:35 AM, John Schinnerer wrote: Congratulations John on your first sail with your new M17. Half the fun of owning a boat is fixing things, or making improvement in its intended use. Your description of what you found in your first sail, sound mostly minor, and a quick fix for someone with your know-how and capabilities. "What a sweet boat" is a great description. Have fun; go sailing; and don't forget to take your tool box along....! Connie
Took my inaugural sail on Pajarita, my recently purchased '74 M17, today. My sailing pal Keith (Ranger 20 "Stoke" - yep, he's also a surfer) was along to help rig and test her out. What a sweet boat! Was at Lake of the Woods, in the highlands/mountains a bit east of Medford/Ashland area in southern Oregon. A mild and sunny late summer day with light to medium winds and an occasional fresh breeze, the latter pushing us up to near hull speed with the small jib and full main.
Some interesting discoveries and other comments:
Boat came with extra mainsheet type line and block rig for solo mast raising, and with mainsail and sheet/blocks already on boom with sail cover on. So I rigged it up as it was. Then I was wondering why in only a moderate breeze the main sheet took so much muscle to sheet in, didn't seem right compared to any other boat I've sailed. Took a closer look and noticed the block setup was only 3 turns. Took a second look at the alleged mast raising block/line and it is 4 turns, and less bulky to boot. I can only assume the former owner was sailing with the mast raising tackle, and had the mainsheet tackle in the mast raising gear bucket...!
The main and jib halyards are nice color coded line - green halyard for main/stbd, red for jib/port - but they're in the opposite sheaves they should be at masthead! Not tangled...just need to be pulled and swapped port/stbd (they are even color coded, ). Worked around it by just cleating the halyards on the "wrong" sides for now.
The boat sat with the CB line apparently wrapped quite tight around the CB winch for quite a while (boat was stored for ~1.5 years before I bought it). The line against the winch appears to have gotten compacted and smoothed and slips quite a bit while trying to raise the CB, even with 4 turns on the winch. This is exacerbated by use of a poorly placed and nearly too small jam cleat with too tight of fairlead to secure the CB line, and a rather flimsy plastic winch handle that is also too long to turn 360 deg. without hitting CB trunk, and a CB winch that doesn't seem to have the function of letting the handle ratchet back and forth as it turns the winch.
The flex in the transom at the (nice stainless, adjustable, spring-loaded) motor mount with the Tohatsu 6hp SailPro is not IMO sustainable. Just sitting still with the motor raised, even, if the boat bounces in a little chop. Flex, flex, flex.... Not to mention actually motoring! There is a backing plate inside the hull, but a poorly done one. The flex/stress on the transom due to motor weight is more a concern for me than trim issues due to the weight.
Also, at something less than half throttle I think we were pretty much at hull speed (with CB down no less). Cranking up the throttle led to stern settling and even more flex/stress on the mount/transom. So that motor seems like significant overkill for an M17. I could mount it direct in cutout but then there's the rudder/motor/prop interference issue. Just read a rave review of the motor as being more than adequate for a 3000 lb. boat sailing in the San Juans' current-laden waters.
The boat came with the mahogany one piece rudder, the original I assume. What a long blade! I couldn't even put the rudder on at the dock, too shallow, even though plenty of depth for the keel with CB up. Anyone know what the draft is on the one-piece rudder? Anyhow I need to do something about that long fixed rudder, and whatever I do has to cost way less than the $600+ Ruddercraft and the like. Anyone have plans/diagrams/photos for a DIY kick-up conversion?
All for now. Love the boat so far! She's in a short-term slip at the small marina and will see some more sailing Saturday, maybe Friday also, maybe even Sunday.
cheers, John S.
One-piece rudder is not supposed to be fixed. The gudgeons (fittings attached to rudder) are supposed to slide up and down on the pintle rod (rod held in fittings attached to transom)
exactly!
To be frank, it is a kludgy set-up,
mine works easily. never had an issue. original to the boat (built in '83). -- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 9:08 AM, <swwheatley@comcast.net> wrote:
John:
One-piece rudder is not supposed to be fixed. The gudgeons (fittings attached to rudder) are supposed to slide up and down on the pintle rod (rod held in fittings attached to transom). To be frank, it is a kludgy set-up, but I am too cheap to buy a new rudder. After 2 years of fine tuning and a new pintle rod, I still cannot get mine to slide smoothly. Next step will be drilling the gudgeon holes a smidge larger. Hopefully that will do it.
Thanks for this...fact is, my rudder is a plain fixed rudder. Pintles bolted onto the LE of the rudder, period. No sign of any previous sliding or other movable installation. Size and shape seem to be correct and it sure turns her well and swiftly. Just need to do something to protect it in shallow water. Thanks Bill T for the tip re JO Woodworks. Were some M17's sold with a plain fixed rudder? I think mine may be the first one built in '74. I got two mains - a newer North Sails which was on the boom, and an older main (original?) which has a crude "M" on it (but no "17") and the number "8" - from Jerry's post a while back about production notes he found, there were 7 built in '73 and then 40-some in '74 so #8 would be the first in '74. My HIN is MMP170380674 if that enables anyone to tell me any more about the exact vintage. cheers, John S. On 09/24/2015 08:08 AM, swwheatley@comcast.net wrote:
John:
One-piece rudder is not supposed to be fixed. The gudgeons (fittings attached to rudder) are supposed to slide up and down on the pintle rod (rod held in fittings attached to transom). To be frank, it is a kludgy set-up, but I am too cheap to buy a new rudder. After 2 years of fine tuning and a new pintle rod, I still cannot get mine to slide smoothly. Next step will be drilling the gudgeon holes a smidge larger. Hopefully that will do it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Tosh" <billt@eastex.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 9:49:56 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Splashed Pajarita today!
John,,,, For your rudder fix, try JOWoodworks.com and talk to John Owens..... does excellent work and price is right, and while he does other stuff as handrails, hatch covers, etc etc, Rudders and daggers are his main forte.
Bill Tosh www.tcboats.com
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Conbert Benneck Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 8:19 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Splashed Pajarita today!
On 9/24/2015 1:35 AM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Congratulations John on your first sail with your new M17.
Half the fun of owning a boat is fixing things, or making improvement in its intended use.
Your description of what you found in your first sail, sound mostly minor, and a quick fix for someone with your know-how and capabilities.
"What a sweet boat" is a great description.
Have fun; go sailing; and don't forget to take your tool box along....!
Connie
Took my inaugural sail on Pajarita, my recently purchased '74 M17, today. My sailing pal Keith (Ranger 20 "Stoke" - yep, he's also a surfer) was along to help rig and test her out. What a sweet boat! Was at Lake of the Woods, in the highlands/mountains a bit east of Medford/Ashland area in southern Oregon. A mild and sunny late summer day with light to medium winds and an occasional fresh breeze, the latter pushing us up to near hull speed with the small jib and full main.
Some interesting discoveries and other comments:
Boat came with extra mainsheet type line and block rig for solo mast raising, and with mainsail and sheet/blocks already on boom with sail cover on. So I rigged it up as it was. Then I was wondering why in only a moderate breeze the main sheet took so much muscle to sheet in, didn't seem right compared to any other boat I've sailed. Took a closer look and noticed the block setup was only 3 turns. Took a second look at the alleged mast raising block/line and it is 4 turns, and less bulky to boot. I can only assume the former owner was sailing with the mast raising tackle, and had the mainsheet tackle in the mast raising gear bucket...!
The main and jib halyards are nice color coded line - green halyard for main/stbd, red for jib/port - but they're in the opposite sheaves they should be at masthead! Not tangled...just need to be pulled and swapped port/stbd (they are even color coded, ). Worked around it by just cleating the halyards on the "wrong" sides for now.
The boat sat with the CB line apparently wrapped quite tight around the CB winch for quite a while (boat was stored for ~1.5 years before I bought it). The line against the winch appears to have gotten compacted and smoothed and slips quite a bit while trying to raise the CB, even with 4 turns on the winch. This is exacerbated by use of a poorly placed and nearly too small jam cleat with too tight of fairlead to secure the CB line, and a rather flimsy plastic winch handle that is also too long to turn 360 deg. without hitting CB trunk, and a CB winch that doesn't seem to have the function of letting the handle ratchet back and forth as it turns the winch.
The flex in the transom at the (nice stainless, adjustable, spring-loaded) motor mount with the Tohatsu 6hp SailPro is not IMO sustainable. Just sitting still with the motor raised, even, if the boat bounces in a little chop. Flex, flex, flex.... Not to mention actually motoring! There is a backing plate inside the hull, but a poorly done one. The flex/stress on the transom due to motor weight is more a concern for me than trim issues due to the weight.
Also, at something less than half throttle I think we were pretty much at hull speed (with CB down no less). Cranking up the throttle led to stern settling and even more flex/stress on the mount/transom. So that motor seems like significant overkill for an M17. I could mount it direct in cutout but then there's the rudder/motor/prop interference issue. Just read a rave review of the motor as being more than adequate for a 3000 lb. boat sailing in the San Juans' current-laden waters.
The boat came with the mahogany one piece rudder, the original I assume. What a long blade! I couldn't even put the rudder on at the dock, too shallow, even though plenty of depth for the keel with CB up. Anyone know what the draft is on the one-piece rudder? Anyhow I need to do something about that long fixed rudder, and whatever I do has to cost way less than the $600+ Ruddercraft and the like. Anyone have plans/diagrams/photos for a DIY kick-up conversion?
All for now. Love the boat so far! She's in a short-term slip at the small marina and will see some more sailing Saturday, maybe Friday also, maybe even Sunday.
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
John, Based on your HIN - MMP170380674; your boat was built in June of '74 and was boat #38. Here's the breakdown......... MMP - Montgomery Marine Products 17 - Boat Model - M-15; M-17; M-23 and various dinks 038 - Sequence number for that year 06 - Month of manufacture 74 - Year of manufacture Happy Sailing!!! Skip C. -----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thu, Sep 24, 2015 1:51 pm Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudders, and boat vintage Thanks for this...fact is, my rudder is a plain fixed rudder. Pintles bolted onto the LE of the rudder, period. No sign of any previous sliding or other movable installation. Size and shape seem to be correct and it sure turns her well and swiftly. Just need to do something to protect it in shallow water. Thanks Bill T for the tip re JO Woodworks. Were some M17's sold with a plain fixed rudder? I think mine may be the first one built in '74. I got two mains - a newer North Sails which was on the boom, and an older main (original?) which has a crude "M" on it (but no "17") and the number "8" - from Jerry's post a while back about production notes he found, there were 7 built in '73 and then 40-some in '74 so #8 would be the first in '74. My HIN is MMP170380674 if that enables anyone to tell me any more about the exact vintage. cheers, John S. On 09/24/2015 08:08 AM, swwheatley@comcast.net wrote:
John:
One-piece rudder is not supposed to be fixed. The gudgeons (fittings attached to rudder) are supposed to slide up and down on the pintle rod (rod held in fittings attached to transom). To be frank, it is a kludgy set-up, but I am too cheap to buy a new rudder. After 2 years of fine tuning and a new pintle rod, I still cannot get mine to slide smoothly. Next step will be drilling the gudgeon holes a smidge larger. Hopefully that will do it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Tosh" <billt@eastex.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 9:49:56 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Splashed Pajarita today!
John,,,, For your rudder fix, try JOWoodworks.com and talk to John Owens..... does excellent work and price is right, and while he does other stuff as handrails, hatch covers, etc etc, Rudders and daggers are his main forte.
Bill Tosh www.tcboats.com
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Conbert Benneck Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 8:19 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Splashed Pajarita today!
On 9/24/2015 1:35 AM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Congratulations John on your first sail with your new M17.
Half the fun of owning a boat is fixing things, or making improvement in its intended use.
Your description of what you found in your first sail, sound mostly minor, and a quick fix for someone with your know-how and capabilities.
"What a sweet boat" is a great description.
Have fun; go sailing; and don't forget to take your tool box along....!
Connie
Took my inaugural sail on Pajarita, my recently purchased '74 M17, today. My sailing pal Keith (Ranger 20 "Stoke" - yep, he's also a surfer) was along to help rig and test her out. What a sweet boat! Was at Lake of the Woods, in the highlands/mountains a bit east of Medford/Ashland area in southern Oregon. A mild and sunny late summer day with light to medium winds and an occasional fresh
breeze, the latter pushing us up to near hull speed with the small
jib and full main.
Some interesting discoveries and other comments:
Boat came with extra mainsheet type line and block rig for solo mast raising, and with mainsail and sheet/blocks already on boom with sail cover on. So I rigged it up as it was. Then I was wondering why in only a moderate breeze the main sheet took so much muscle to sheet in, didn't seem right compared to any other boat I've sailed. Took a closer look and noticed the block setup was only 3 turns. Took a second look at the alleged mast raising
block/line and it is 4 turns, and less bulky to boot. I can only
assume the former owner was sailing with the mast raising tackle, and had the mainsheet tackle in the mast raising gear bucket...!
The main and jib halyards are nice color coded line - green halyard for main/stbd, red for jib/port - but they're in the opposite sheaves they should be at masthead! Not tangled...just need to be pulled and swapped port/stbd (they are even color coded, ). Worked around it by just cleating the halyards on the "wrong"
sides for now.
The boat sat with the CB line apparently wrapped quite
tight
around the CB winch for quite a while (boat was stored for ~1.5
years before I bought it). The line against the winch appears to
have gotten compacted and smoothed and slips quite a bit while trying to raise the CB, even with 4 turns on the winch. This is exacerbated by use of a poorly placed and nearly too small jam cleat with too tight of fairlead to secure the CB line, and a rather flimsy plastic winch handle that is also too long to turn 360 deg. without hitting CB trunk, and a CB winch that doesn't seem to have the function of letting the handle ratchet back and forth
as it turns the winch.
The flex in the transom at the (nice stainless,
adjustable,
spring-loaded) motor mount with the Tohatsu 6hp SailPro is not IMO sustainable. Just sitting still with the motor raised, even, if the boat bounces in a little chop. Flex, flex, flex.... Not to mention actually motoring! There is a backing plate inside the hull, but a poorly done one. The flex/stress on the transom due to motor weight is more a concern for me than trim issues due to the weight.
Also, at something less than half throttle I think we were pretty much at hull speed (with CB down no less). Cranking up the throttle led to stern settling and even more flex/stress on the mount/transom. So that motor seems like significant overkill for an M17. I could mount it direct in cutout but then there's the rudder/motor/prop interference issue. Just read a rave review of the motor as being more than adequate for a 3000 lb. boat sailing in the San Juans' current-laden waters.
The boat came with the mahogany one piece rudder, the original I assume. What a long blade! I couldn't even put the rudder on at the dock, too shallow, even though plenty of depth for the keel with CB up. Anyone know what the draft is on the one-piece rudder?
Anyhow I need to do something about that long fixed rudder, and
whatever I do has to cost way less than the $600+ Ruddercraft and the like. Anyone have plans/diagrams/photos for a DIY kick-up conversion?
All for now. Love the boat so far! She's in a short-term slip at the small marina and will see some more sailing Saturday, maybe Friday also, maybe even Sunday.
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Thanks Skip! I figured there was a code to the number and guessed the Boat Model part but not the rest. So it's #38 overall - "from the beginning" that is - or #38 "for that year" (1974) as you wrote? thanks, John S. On 09/24/2015 11:11 AM, Skip Campion via montgomery_boats wrote:
John,
Based on your HIN - MMP170380674; your boat was built in June of '74 and was boat #38. Here's the breakdown.........
MMP - Montgomery Marine Products 17 - Boat Model - M-15; M-17; M-23 and various dinks 038 - Sequence number for that year 06 - Month of manufacture 74 - Year of manufacture
Happy Sailing!!!
Skip C.
-----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thu, Sep 24, 2015 1:51 pm Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudders, and boat vintage
Thanks for this...fact is, my rudder is a plain fixed rudder. Pintles bolted onto the LE of the rudder, period. No sign of any previous sliding or other movable installation.
Size and shape seem to be correct and it sure turns her well and swiftly. Just need to do something to protect it in shallow water. Thanks Bill T for the tip re JO Woodworks.
Were some M17's sold with a plain fixed rudder?
I think mine may be the first one built in '74. I got two mains - a newer North Sails which was on the boom, and an older main (original?) which has a crude "M" on it (but no "17") and the number "8" - from Jerry's post a while back about production notes he found, there were 7
built in '73 and then 40-some in '74 so #8 would be the first in '74.
My HIN is MMP170380674 if that enables anyone to tell me any more about the exact vintage.
cheers, John S.
On 09/24/2015 08:08 AM, swwheatley@comcast.net wrote:
John:
One-piece rudder is not supposed to be fixed. The gudgeons (fittings attached to rudder) are supposed to slide up and down on the pintle rod (rod held in fittings attached to transom). To be frank, it is a kludgy set-up, but I am too cheap to buy a new rudder. After 2 years of fine tuning and a new pintle rod, I still cannot get mine to slide smoothly. Next step will be drilling the gudgeon holes a smidge larger. Hopefully that will do it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Tosh" <billt@eastex.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 9:49:56 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Splashed Pajarita today!
John,,,, For your rudder fix, try JOWoodworks.com and talk to John Owens..... does excellent work and price is right, and while he does other stuff as handrails, hatch covers, etc etc, Rudders and daggers are his main forte.
Bill Tosh www.tcboats.com
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Conbert Benneck Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 8:19 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Splashed Pajarita today!
On 9/24/2015 1:35 AM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Congratulations John on your first sail with your new M17.
Half the fun of owning a boat is fixing things, or making improvement in its intended use.
Your description of what you found in your first sail, sound mostly minor, and a quick fix for someone with your know-how and capabilities.
"What a sweet boat" is a great description.
Have fun; go sailing; and don't forget to take your tool box along....!
Connie
Took my inaugural sail on Pajarita, my recently purchased '74 M17, today. My sailing pal Keith (Ranger 20 "Stoke" - yep, he's also a surfer) was along to help rig and test her out. What a sweet boat! Was at Lake of the Woods, in the highlands/mountains a bit east of Medford/Ashland area in southern Oregon. A mild and sunny late summer day with light to medium winds and an occasional fresh
breeze, the latter pushing us up to near hull speed with the small
jib and full main.
Some interesting discoveries and other comments:
Boat came with extra mainsheet type line and block rig for solo mast raising, and with mainsail and sheet/blocks already on boom with sail cover on. So I rigged it up as it was. Then I was wondering why in only a moderate breeze the main sheet took so much muscle to sheet in, didn't seem right compared to any other boat I've sailed. Took a closer look and noticed the block setup was only 3 turns. Took a second look at the alleged mast raising
block/line and it is 4 turns, and less bulky to boot. I can only
assume the former owner was sailing with the mast raising tackle, and had the mainsheet tackle in the mast raising gear bucket...!
The main and jib halyards are nice color coded line - green halyard for main/stbd, red for jib/port - but they're in the opposite sheaves they should be at masthead! Not tangled...just need to be pulled and swapped port/stbd (they are even color coded, ). Worked around it by just cleating the halyards on the "wrong"
sides for now.
The boat sat with the CB line apparently wrapped quite
tight
around the CB winch for quite a while (boat was stored for ~1.5
years before I bought it). The line against the winch appears to
have gotten compacted and smoothed and slips quite a bit while trying to raise the CB, even with 4 turns on the winch. This is exacerbated by use of a poorly placed and nearly too small jam cleat with too tight of fairlead to secure the CB line, and a rather flimsy plastic winch handle that is also too long to turn 360 deg. without hitting CB trunk, and a CB winch that doesn't seem to have the function of letting the handle ratchet back and forth
as it turns the winch.
The flex in the transom at the (nice stainless,
adjustable,
spring-loaded) motor mount with the Tohatsu 6hp SailPro is not IMO sustainable. Just sitting still with the motor raised, even, if the boat bounces in a little chop. Flex, flex, flex.... Not to mention actually motoring! There is a backing plate inside the hull, but a poorly done one. The flex/stress on the transom due to motor weight is more a concern for me than trim issues due to the weight.
Also, at something less than half throttle I think we were pretty much at hull speed (with CB down no less). Cranking up the throttle led to stern settling and even more flex/stress on the mount/transom. So that motor seems like significant overkill for an M17. I could mount it direct in cutout but then there's the rudder/motor/prop interference issue. Just read a rave review of the motor as being more than adequate for a 3000 lb. boat sailing in the San Juans' current-laden waters.
The boat came with the mahogany one piece rudder, the original I assume. What a long blade! I couldn't even put the rudder on at the dock, too shallow, even though plenty of depth for the keel with CB up. Anyone know what the draft is on the one-piece rudder?
Anyhow I need to do something about that long fixed rudder, and
whatever I do has to cost way less than the $600+ Ruddercraft and the like. Anyone have plans/diagrams/photos for a DIY kick-up conversion?
All for now. Love the boat so far! She's in a short-term slip at the small marina and will see some more sailing Saturday, maybe Friday also, maybe even Sunday.
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Jerry numbered his boat sequentially through the years so it is the 38 boat built. Now, there is some inconsistencies. The Montgomery 23s don't really have a numbering system that is sequential. The 15s, 17s and dinks were numbered in their own sequences. There are some gaps, and some boats with the same sail number. :: Dave Scobie On Sep 24, 2015 12:22 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks Skip! I figured there was a code to the number and guessed the Boat Model part but not the rest. So it's #38 overall - "from the beginning" that is - or #38 "for that year" (1974) as you wrote?
thanks, John S.
On 09/24/2015 11:11 AM, Skip Campion via montgomery_boats wrote:
John,
Based on your HIN - MMP170380674; your boat was built in June of '74 and was boat #38. Here's the breakdown.........
MMP - Montgomery Marine Products 17 - Boat Model - M-15; M-17; M-23 and various dinks 038 - Sequence number for that year 06 - Month of manufacture 74 - Year of manufacture
Happy Sailing!!!
Skip C.
-----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thu, Sep 24, 2015 1:51 pm Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudders, and boat vintage
Thanks for this...fact is, my rudder is a plain fixed rudder. Pintles bolted onto the LE of the rudder, period. No sign of any previous sliding or other movable installation.
Size and shape seem to be correct and it sure turns her well and swiftly. Just need to do something to protect it in shallow water. Thanks Bill T for the tip re JO Woodworks.
Were some M17's sold with a plain fixed rudder?
I think mine may be the first one built in '74. I got two mains - a newer North Sails which was on the boom, and an older main (original?) which has a crude "M" on it (but no "17") and the number "8" - from Jerry's post a while back about production notes he found, there were 7
built in '73 and then 40-some in '74 so #8 would be the first in '74.
My HIN is MMP170380674 if that enables anyone to tell me any more about the exact vintage.
cheers, John S.
On 09/24/2015 08:08 AM, swwheatley@comcast.net wrote:
John:
One-piece rudder is not supposed to be fixed. The gudgeons
(fittings
attached to rudder) are supposed to slide up and down on the
pintle
rod (rod held in fittings attached to transom). To be frank, it is
a
kludgy set-up, but I am too cheap to buy a new rudder. After 2 years of
fine tuning and a new pintle rod, I still cannot get mine to slide
smoothly.
Next step will be drilling the gudgeon holes a smidge
larger. Hopefully that
will do it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Tosh"
<billt@eastex.net> To: "For and about Montgomery
Sailboats"
<montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday,
September 24, 2015
9:49:56 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Splashed Pajarita
today!
John,,,, For
your rudder fix, try JOWoodworks.com and talk to John
Owens..... does
excellent work and price is right, and while he does
other stuff as
handrails, hatch covers, etc etc, Rudders and daggers
are his main
forte.
Bill Tosh www.tcboats.com
-----Original Message----- From:
montgomery_boats
[mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On
Behalf Of
Conbert Benneck Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 8:19 AM To:
For
and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Splashed Pajarita
today!
On 9/24/2015 1:35 AM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Congratulations
John on your first sail with your new M17.
Half the fun of owning a boat
is fixing things, or making improvement
in its intended use.
Your
description of what you found in your first sail, sound mostly
minor, and a
quick fix for someone with your know-how and
capabilities.
"What a
sweet boat" is a great description.
Have fun; go sailing; and don't forget
to take your tool box
along....!
Connie
Took my inaugural sail on
Pajarita, my recently purchased '74 M17,
today. My sailing pal Keith (Ranger
20 "Stoke" - yep, he's also a
surfer) was along to help rig and test her
out. What a sweet boat!
Was at Lake of the Woods, in the highlands/mountains
a bit east of
Medford/Ashland area in southern Oregon. A mild and sunny
late
summer day with light to medium winds and an occasional fresh
breeze, the latter pushing us up to near hull speed with the small
jib and
full main.
Some interesting discoveries and other comments:
Boat
came with extra mainsheet type line and block rig for solo
mast raising, and
with mainsail and sheet/blocks already on boom
with sail cover on. So I
rigged it up as it was. Then I was
wondering why in only a moderate breeze
the main sheet took so much
muscle to sheet in, didn't seem right compared
to any other boat
I've sailed. Took a closer look and noticed the block
setup was
only 3 turns. Took a second look at the alleged mast raising
block/line and it is 4 turns, and less bulky to boot. I can only
assume the
former owner was sailing with the mast raising tackle,
and had the mainsheet
tackle in the mast raising gear bucket...!
The main and jib halyards are
nice color coded line - green
halyard for main/stbd, red for jib/port - but
they're in the
opposite sheaves they should be at masthead! Not
tangled...just
need to be pulled and swapped port/stbd (they are even color
coded,
). Worked around it by just cleating the halyards on the "wrong"
sides for now.
The boat sat with the CB line apparently wrapped quite
tight
around the CB winch for quite a while (boat was stored for ~1.5
years before I bought it). The line against the winch appears to
have gotten
compacted and smoothed and slips quite a bit while
trying to raise the CB,
even with 4 turns on the winch. This is
exacerbated by use of a poorly
placed and nearly too small jam
cleat with too tight of fairlead to secure
the CB line, and a
rather flimsy plastic winch handle that is also too long
to turn
360 deg. without hitting CB trunk, and a CB winch that doesn't
seem
to have the function of letting the handle ratchet back and forth
as it turns the winch.
The flex in the transom at the (nice stainless,
adjustable,
spring-loaded) motor mount with the Tohatsu 6hp SailPro is not
IMO
sustainable. Just sitting still with the motor raised, even, if
the
boat bounces in a little chop. Flex, flex, flex.... Not to
mention actually
motoring! There is a backing plate inside the
hull, but a poorly done one.
The flex/stress on the transom due to
motor weight is more a concern for me
than trim issues due to the
weight.
Also, at something less than
half throttle I think we were pretty
much at hull speed (with CB down no
less). Cranking up the throttle
led to stern settling and even more
flex/stress on the
mount/transom. So that motor seems like significant
overkill for an
M17. I could mount it direct in cutout but then there's
the
rudder/motor/prop interference issue. Just read a rave review of
the
motor as being more than adequate for a 3000 lb. boat sailing
in the San
Juans' current-laden waters.
The boat came with the mahogany one piece
rudder, the original I
assume. What a long blade! I couldn't even put the
rudder on at
the dock, too shallow, even though plenty of depth for the
keel
with CB up. Anyone know what the draft is on the one-piece rudder?
Anyhow I need to do something about that long fixed rudder, and
whatever I
do has to cost way less than the $600+ Ruddercraft and
the like. Anyone have
plans/diagrams/photos for a DIY kick-up
conversion?
All for now.
Love the boat so far! She's in a short-term slip at
the small marina and
will see some more sailing Saturday, maybe
Friday also, maybe even
Sunday.
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Cool, thanks Dave for filling in that piece of the puzzle. cheers, John S. On 09/24/2015 11:25 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
Jerry numbered his boat sequentially through the years so it is the 38 boat built.
Now, there is some inconsistencies. The Montgomery 23s don't really have a numbering system that is sequential. The 15s, 17s and dinks were numbered in their own sequences. There are some gaps, and some boats with the same sail number.
:: Dave Scobie On Sep 24, 2015 12:22 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks Skip! I figured there was a code to the number and guessed the Boat Model part but not the rest. So it's #38 overall - "from the beginning" that is - or #38 "for that year" (1974) as you wrote?
thanks, John S.
On 09/24/2015 11:11 AM, Skip Campion via montgomery_boats wrote:
John,
Based on your HIN - MMP170380674; your boat was built in June of '74 and was boat #38. Here's the breakdown.........
MMP - Montgomery Marine Products 17 - Boat Model - M-15; M-17; M-23 and various dinks 038 - Sequence number for that year 06 - Month of manufacture 74 - Year of manufacture
Happy Sailing!!!
Skip C.
-----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thu, Sep 24, 2015 1:51 pm Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rudders, and boat vintage
Thanks for this...fact is, my rudder is a plain fixed rudder. Pintles bolted onto the LE of the rudder, period. No sign of any previous sliding or other movable installation.
Size and shape seem to be correct and it sure turns her well and swiftly. Just need to do something to protect it in shallow water. Thanks Bill T for the tip re JO Woodworks.
Were some M17's sold with a plain fixed rudder?
I think mine may be the first one built in '74. I got two mains - a newer North Sails which was on the boom, and an older main (original?) which has a crude "M" on it (but no "17") and the number "8" - from Jerry's post a while back about production notes he found, there were 7
built in '73 and then 40-some in '74 so #8 would be the first in '74.
My HIN is MMP170380674 if that enables anyone to tell me any more about the exact vintage.
cheers, John S.
On 09/24/2015 08:08 AM, swwheatley@comcast.net wrote:
John:
One-piece rudder is not supposed to be fixed. The gudgeons
(fittings
attached to rudder) are supposed to slide up and down on the
pintle
rod (rod held in fittings attached to transom). To be frank, it is
a
kludgy set-up, but I am too cheap to buy a new rudder. After 2 years of
fine tuning and a new pintle rod, I still cannot get mine to slide
smoothly.
Next step will be drilling the gudgeon holes a smidge
larger. Hopefully that
will do it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Tosh"
<billt@eastex.net> To: "For and about Montgomery
Sailboats"
<montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday,
September 24, 2015
9:49:56 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Splashed Pajarita
today!
John,,,, For
your rudder fix, try JOWoodworks.com and talk to John
Owens..... does
excellent work and price is right, and while he does
other stuff as
handrails, hatch covers, etc etc, Rudders and daggers
are his main
forte.
Bill Tosh www.tcboats.com
-----Original Message----- From:
montgomery_boats
[mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On
Behalf Of
Conbert Benneck Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 8:19 AM To:
For
and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Splashed Pajarita
today!
On 9/24/2015 1:35 AM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Congratulations
John on your first sail with your new M17.
Half the fun of owning a boat
is fixing things, or making improvement
in its intended use.
Your
description of what you found in your first sail, sound mostly
minor, and a
quick fix for someone with your know-how and
capabilities.
"What a
sweet boat" is a great description.
Have fun; go sailing; and don't forget
to take your tool box
along....!
Connie
Took my inaugural sail on
Pajarita, my recently purchased '74 M17,
today. My sailing pal Keith (Ranger
20 "Stoke" - yep, he's also a
surfer) was along to help rig and test her
out. What a sweet boat!
Was at Lake of the Woods, in the highlands/mountains
a bit east of
Medford/Ashland area in southern Oregon. A mild and sunny
late
summer day with light to medium winds and an occasional fresh
breeze, the latter pushing us up to near hull speed with the small
jib and
full main.
Some interesting discoveries and other comments:
Boat
came with extra mainsheet type line and block rig for solo
mast raising, and
with mainsail and sheet/blocks already on boom
with sail cover on. So I
rigged it up as it was. Then I was
wondering why in only a moderate breeze
the main sheet took so much
muscle to sheet in, didn't seem right compared
to any other boat
I've sailed. Took a closer look and noticed the block
setup was
only 3 turns. Took a second look at the alleged mast raising
block/line and it is 4 turns, and less bulky to boot. I can only
assume the
former owner was sailing with the mast raising tackle,
and had the mainsheet
tackle in the mast raising gear bucket...!
The main and jib halyards are
nice color coded line - green
halyard for main/stbd, red for jib/port - but
they're in the
opposite sheaves they should be at masthead! Not
tangled...just
need to be pulled and swapped port/stbd (they are even color
coded,
). Worked around it by just cleating the halyards on the "wrong"
sides for now.
The boat sat with the CB line apparently wrapped quite
tight
around the CB winch for quite a while (boat was stored for ~1.5
years before I bought it). The line against the winch appears to
have gotten
compacted and smoothed and slips quite a bit while
trying to raise the CB,
even with 4 turns on the winch. This is
exacerbated by use of a poorly
placed and nearly too small jam
cleat with too tight of fairlead to secure
the CB line, and a
rather flimsy plastic winch handle that is also too long
to turn
360 deg. without hitting CB trunk, and a CB winch that doesn't
seem
to have the function of letting the handle ratchet back and forth
as it turns the winch.
The flex in the transom at the (nice stainless,
adjustable,
spring-loaded) motor mount with the Tohatsu 6hp SailPro is not
IMO
sustainable. Just sitting still with the motor raised, even, if
the
boat bounces in a little chop. Flex, flex, flex.... Not to
mention actually
motoring! There is a backing plate inside the
hull, but a poorly done one.
The flex/stress on the transom due to
motor weight is more a concern for me
than trim issues due to the
weight.
Also, at something less than
half throttle I think we were pretty
much at hull speed (with CB down no
less). Cranking up the throttle
led to stern settling and even more
flex/stress on the
mount/transom. So that motor seems like significant
overkill for an
M17. I could mount it direct in cutout but then there's
the
rudder/motor/prop interference issue. Just read a rave review of
the
motor as being more than adequate for a 3000 lb. boat sailing
in the San
Juans' current-laden waters.
The boat came with the mahogany one piece
rudder, the original I
assume. What a long blade! I couldn't even put the
rudder on at
the dock, too shallow, even though plenty of depth for the
keel
with CB up. Anyone know what the draft is on the one-piece rudder?
Anyhow I need to do something about that long fixed rudder, and
whatever I
do has to cost way less than the $600+ Ruddercraft and
the like. Anyone have
plans/diagrams/photos for a DIY kick-up
conversion?
All for now.
Love the boat so far! She's in a short-term slip at
the small marina and
will see some more sailing Saturday, maybe
Friday also, maybe even
Sunday.
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I have installed the gudgeons on three different rudders. Provided the rudder pin is straight (roll it on a flat surface to check for any wobble), and if the gudgeons will slide up and down the pin when not mounted, it can be made to work when mounted on a rudder. Trick is getting all three of them perfectly aligned. If not aligned, they will not want to slide. Get it right and it slides easy. I would suggest you keep working with what you have BEFORE you drill the holes out oversized. You almost certainly have a problem with alignment. So how to get it right? Started to type out the instructions, then remembered I did a blog on this once before, that thankfully, Dave has preserved. http://m17-375.webs.com/rudderandtiller.htm A couple other things can also be found there regarding the older M17's. Seems to be a recurring theme with many of them, so something new owners of older boats may want to consider. Howard On Sep 24, 2015, at 10:08 AM, swwheatley@comcast.net wrote:
John:
One-piece rudder is not supposed to be fixed. The gudgeons (fittings attached to rudder) are supposed to slide up and down on the pintle rod (rod held in fittings attached to transom). To be frank, it is a kludgy set-up, but I am too cheap to buy a new rudder. After 2 years of fine tuning and a new pintle rod, I still cannot get mine to slide smoothly. Next step will be drilling the gudgeon holes a smidge larger. Hopefully that will do it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Tosh" <billt@eastex.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 9:49:56 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Splashed Pajarita today!
John,,,, For your rudder fix, try JOWoodworks.com and talk to John Owens..... does excellent work and price is right, and while he does other stuff as handrails, hatch covers, etc etc, Rudders and daggers are his main forte.
Bill Tosh www.tcboats.com
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Conbert Benneck Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 8:19 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Splashed Pajarita today!
On 9/24/2015 1:35 AM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Congratulations John on your first sail with your new M17.
Half the fun of owning a boat is fixing things, or making improvement in its intended use.
Your description of what you found in your first sail, sound mostly minor, and a quick fix for someone with your know-how and capabilities.
"What a sweet boat" is a great description.
Have fun; go sailing; and don't forget to take your tool box along....!
Connie
Took my inaugural sail on Pajarita, my recently purchased '74 M17, today. My sailing pal Keith (Ranger 20 "Stoke" - yep, he's also a surfer) was along to help rig and test her out. What a sweet boat! Was at Lake of the Woods, in the highlands/mountains a bit east of Medford/Ashland area in southern Oregon. A mild and sunny late summer day with light to medium winds and an occasional fresh breeze, the latter pushing us up to near hull speed with the small jib and full main.
Some interesting discoveries and other comments:
Boat came with extra mainsheet type line and block rig for solo mast raising, and with mainsail and sheet/blocks already on boom with sail cover on. So I rigged it up as it was. Then I was wondering why in only a moderate breeze the main sheet took so much muscle to sheet in, didn't seem right compared to any other boat I've sailed. Took a closer look and noticed the block setup was only 3 turns. Took a second look at the alleged mast raising block/line and it is 4 turns, and less bulky to boot. I can only assume the former owner was sailing with the mast raising tackle, and had the mainsheet tackle in the mast raising gear bucket...!
The main and jib halyards are nice color coded line - green halyard for main/stbd, red for jib/port - but they're in the opposite sheaves they should be at masthead! Not tangled...just need to be pulled and swapped port/stbd (they are even color coded, ). Worked around it by just cleating the halyards on the "wrong" sides for now.
The boat sat with the CB line apparently wrapped quite tight around the CB winch for quite a while (boat was stored for ~1.5 years before I bought it). The line against the winch appears to have gotten compacted and smoothed and slips quite a bit while trying to raise the CB, even with 4 turns on the winch. This is exacerbated by use of a poorly placed and nearly too small jam cleat with too tight of fairlead to secure the CB line, and a rather flimsy plastic winch handle that is also too long to turn 360 deg. without hitting CB trunk, and a CB winch that doesn't seem to have the function of letting the handle ratchet back and forth as it turns the winch.
The flex in the transom at the (nice stainless, adjustable, spring-loaded) motor mount with the Tohatsu 6hp SailPro is not IMO sustainable. Just sitting still with the motor raised, even, if the boat bounces in a little chop. Flex, flex, flex.... Not to mention actually motoring! There is a backing plate inside the hull, but a poorly done one. The flex/stress on the transom due to motor weight is more a concern for me than trim issues due to the weight.
Also, at something less than half throttle I think we were pretty much at hull speed (with CB down no less). Cranking up the throttle led to stern settling and even more flex/stress on the mount/transom. So that motor seems like significant overkill for an M17. I could mount it direct in cutout but then there's the rudder/motor/prop interference issue. Just read a rave review of the motor as being more than adequate for a 3000 lb. boat sailing in the San Juans' current-laden waters.
The boat came with the mahogany one piece rudder, the original I assume. What a long blade! I couldn't even put the rudder on at the dock, too shallow, even though plenty of depth for the keel with CB up. Anyone know what the draft is on the one-piece rudder? Anyhow I need to do something about that long fixed rudder, and whatever I do has to cost way less than the $600+ Ruddercraft and the like. Anyone have plans/diagrams/photos for a DIY kick-up conversion?
All for now. Love the boat so far! She's in a short-term slip at the small marina and will see some more sailing Saturday, maybe Friday also, maybe even Sunday.
cheers, John S.
Thanks for the resources on your blog site, I have bookmarked several relevant pages. The locker locking cords I had heard about, figured out something about like you describe but nice to have example and photos. My starboard locker is open to hull so need a cord on that side also. My rudder has two pintles, two gudgeons on the transom, it's just a plain fixed rudder. So I'll have to figure out my own retraction or kick-up mechanism. It is mahogany, painted, I assume it's the original, or a hand-made replacement. cheers, John S. On 09/29/2015 09:45 AM, Howard Audsley wrote:
I have installed the gudgeons on three different rudders. Provided the rudder pin is straight (roll it on a flat surface to check for any wobble), and if the gudgeons will slide up and down the pin when not mounted, it can be made to work when mounted on a rudder. Trick is getting all three of them perfectly aligned. If not aligned, they will not want to slide. Get it right and it slides easy. I would suggest you keep working with what you have BEFORE you drill the holes out oversized. You almost certainly have a problem with alignment.
So how to get it right? Started to type out the instructions, then remembered I did a blog on this once before, that thankfully, Dave has preserved.
http://m17-375.webs.com/rudderandtiller.htm
A couple other things can also be found there regarding the older M17's. Seems to be a recurring theme with many of them, so something new owners of older boats may want to consider.
Howard
On Sep 24, 2015, at 10:08 AM, swwheatley@comcast.net wrote:
John:
One-piece rudder is not supposed to be fixed. The gudgeons (fittings attached to rudder) are supposed to slide up and down on the pintle rod (rod held in fittings attached to transom). To be frank, it is a kludgy set-up, but I am too cheap to buy a new rudder. After 2 years of fine tuning and a new pintle rod, I still cannot get mine to slide smoothly. Next step will be drilling the gudgeon holes a smidge larger. Hopefully that will do it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Tosh" <billt@eastex.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 9:49:56 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Splashed Pajarita today!
John,,,, For your rudder fix, try JOWoodworks.com and talk to John Owens..... does excellent work and price is right, and while he does other stuff as handrails, hatch covers, etc etc, Rudders and daggers are his main forte.
Bill Tosh www.tcboats.com
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Conbert Benneck Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 8:19 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Splashed Pajarita today!
On 9/24/2015 1:35 AM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Congratulations John on your first sail with your new M17.
Half the fun of owning a boat is fixing things, or making improvement in its intended use.
Your description of what you found in your first sail, sound mostly minor, and a quick fix for someone with your know-how and capabilities.
"What a sweet boat" is a great description.
Have fun; go sailing; and don't forget to take your tool box along....!
Connie
Took my inaugural sail on Pajarita, my recently purchased '74 M17, today. My sailing pal Keith (Ranger 20 "Stoke" - yep, he's also a surfer) was along to help rig and test her out. What a sweet boat! Was at Lake of the Woods, in the highlands/mountains a bit east of Medford/Ashland area in southern Oregon. A mild and sunny late summer day with light to medium winds and an occasional fresh breeze, the latter pushing us up to near hull speed with the small jib and full main.
Some interesting discoveries and other comments:
Boat came with extra mainsheet type line and block rig for solo mast raising, and with mainsail and sheet/blocks already on boom with sail cover on. So I rigged it up as it was. Then I was wondering why in only a moderate breeze the main sheet took so much muscle to sheet in, didn't seem right compared to any other boat I've sailed. Took a closer look and noticed the block setup was only 3 turns. Took a second look at the alleged mast raising block/line and it is 4 turns, and less bulky to boot. I can only assume the former owner was sailing with the mast raising tackle, and had the mainsheet tackle in the mast raising gear bucket...!
The main and jib halyards are nice color coded line - green halyard for main/stbd, red for jib/port - but they're in the opposite sheaves they should be at masthead! Not tangled...just need to be pulled and swapped port/stbd (they are even color coded, ). Worked around it by just cleating the halyards on the "wrong" sides for now.
The boat sat with the CB line apparently wrapped quite tight around the CB winch for quite a while (boat was stored for ~1.5 years before I bought it). The line against the winch appears to have gotten compacted and smoothed and slips quite a bit while trying to raise the CB, even with 4 turns on the winch. This is exacerbated by use of a poorly placed and nearly too small jam cleat with too tight of fairlead to secure the CB line, and a rather flimsy plastic winch handle that is also too long to turn 360 deg. without hitting CB trunk, and a CB winch that doesn't seem to have the function of letting the handle ratchet back and forth as it turns the winch.
The flex in the transom at the (nice stainless, adjustable, spring-loaded) motor mount with the Tohatsu 6hp SailPro is not IMO sustainable. Just sitting still with the motor raised, even, if the boat bounces in a little chop. Flex, flex, flex.... Not to mention actually motoring! There is a backing plate inside the hull, but a poorly done one. The flex/stress on the transom due to motor weight is more a concern for me than trim issues due to the weight.
Also, at something less than half throttle I think we were pretty much at hull speed (with CB down no less). Cranking up the throttle led to stern settling and even more flex/stress on the mount/transom. So that motor seems like significant overkill for an M17. I could mount it direct in cutout but then there's the rudder/motor/prop interference issue. Just read a rave review of the motor as being more than adequate for a 3000 lb. boat sailing in the San Juans' current-laden waters.
The boat came with the mahogany one piece rudder, the original I assume. What a long blade! I couldn't even put the rudder on at the dock, too shallow, even though plenty of depth for the keel with CB up. Anyone know what the draft is on the one-piece rudder? Anyhow I need to do something about that long fixed rudder, and whatever I do has to cost way less than the $600+ Ruddercraft and the like. Anyone have plans/diagrams/photos for a DIY kick-up conversion?
All for now. Love the boat so far! She's in a short-term slip at the small marina and will see some more sailing Saturday, maybe Friday also, maybe even Sunday.
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
On 9/29/2015 12:26 PM, John Schinnerer wrote: John, See Phil Bolger drawings (CarTopper for example) for Phil's method of making a swing up rudder. Then you can use your two pintles and have a swing up rudder too. Connie
Thanks for the resources on your blog site, I have bookmarked several relevant pages. The locker locking cords I had heard about, figured out something about like you describe but nice to have example and photos. My starboard locker is open to hull so need a cord on that side also.
My rudder has two pintles, two gudgeons on the transom, it's just a plain fixed rudder. So I'll have to figure out my own retraction or kick-up mechanism. It is mahogany, painted, I assume it's the original, or a hand-made replacement.
cheers, John S.
On 09/29/2015 09:45 AM, Howard Audsley wrote:
I have installed the gudgeons on three different rudders. Provided the rudder pin is straight (roll it on a flat surface to check for any wobble), and if the gudgeons will slide up and down the pin when not mounted, it can be made to work when mounted on a rudder. Trick is getting all three of them perfectly aligned. If not aligned, they will not want to slide. Get it right and it slides easy. I would suggest you keep working with what you have BEFORE you drill the holes out oversized. You almost certainly have a problem with alignment.
So how to get it right? Started to type out the instructions, then remembered I did a blog on this once before, that thankfully, Dave has preserved.
http://m17-375.webs.com/rudderandtiller.htm
A couple other things can also be found there regarding the older M17's. Seems to be a recurring theme with many of them, so something new owners of older boats may want to consider.
Howard
On Sep 24, 2015, at 10:08 AM, swwheatley@comcast.net wrote:
John:
One-piece rudder is not supposed to be fixed. The gudgeons (fittings attached to rudder) are supposed to slide up and down on the pintle rod (rod held in fittings attached to transom). To be frank, it is a kludgy set-up, but I am too cheap to buy a new rudder. After 2 years of fine tuning and a new pintle rod, I still cannot get mine to slide smoothly. Next step will be drilling the gudgeon holes a smidge larger. Hopefully that will do it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Tosh" <billt@eastex.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 9:49:56 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Splashed Pajarita today!
John,,,, For your rudder fix, try JOWoodworks.com and talk to John Owens..... does excellent work and price is right, and while he does other stuff as handrails, hatch covers, etc etc, Rudders and daggers are his main forte.
Bill Tosh www.tcboats.com
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Conbert Benneck Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 8:19 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Splashed Pajarita today!
On 9/24/2015 1:35 AM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Congratulations John on your first sail with your new M17.
Half the fun of owning a boat is fixing things, or making improvement in its intended use.
Your description of what you found in your first sail, sound mostly minor, and a quick fix for someone with your know-how and capabilities.
"What a sweet boat" is a great description.
Have fun; go sailing; and don't forget to take your tool box along....!
Connie
Took my inaugural sail on Pajarita, my recently purchased '74 M17, today. My sailing pal Keith (Ranger 20 "Stoke" - yep, he's also a surfer) was along to help rig and test her out. What a sweet boat! Was at Lake of the Woods, in the highlands/mountains a bit east of Medford/Ashland area in southern Oregon. A mild and sunny late summer day with light to medium winds and an occasional fresh breeze, the latter pushing us up to near hull speed with the small jib and full main.
Some interesting discoveries and other comments:
Boat came with extra mainsheet type line and block rig for solo mast raising, and with mainsail and sheet/blocks already on boom with sail cover on. So I rigged it up as it was. Then I was wondering why in only a moderate breeze the main sheet took so much muscle to sheet in, didn't seem right compared to any other boat I've sailed. Took a closer look and noticed the block setup was only 3 turns. Took a second look at the alleged mast raising block/line and it is 4 turns, and less bulky to boot. I can only assume the former owner was sailing with the mast raising tackle, and had the mainsheet tackle in the mast raising gear bucket...!
The main and jib halyards are nice color coded line - green halyard for main/stbd, red for jib/port - but they're in the opposite sheaves they should be at masthead! Not tangled...just need to be pulled and swapped port/stbd (they are even color coded, ). Worked around it by just cleating the halyards on the "wrong" sides for now.
The boat sat with the CB line apparently wrapped quite tight around the CB winch for quite a while (boat was stored for ~1.5 years before I bought it). The line against the winch appears to have gotten compacted and smoothed and slips quite a bit while trying to raise the CB, even with 4 turns on the winch. This is exacerbated by use of a poorly placed and nearly too small jam cleat with too tight of fairlead to secure the CB line, and a rather flimsy plastic winch handle that is also too long to turn 360 deg. without hitting CB trunk, and a CB winch that doesn't seem to have the function of letting the handle ratchet back and forth as it turns the winch.
The flex in the transom at the (nice stainless, adjustable, spring-loaded) motor mount with the Tohatsu 6hp SailPro is not IMO sustainable. Just sitting still with the motor raised, even, if the boat bounces in a little chop. Flex, flex, flex.... Not to mention actually motoring! There is a backing plate inside the hull, but a poorly done one. The flex/stress on the transom due to motor weight is more a concern for me than trim issues due to the weight.
Also, at something less than half throttle I think we were pretty much at hull speed (with CB down no less). Cranking up the throttle led to stern settling and even more flex/stress on the mount/transom. So that motor seems like significant overkill for an M17. I could mount it direct in cutout but then there's the rudder/motor/prop interference issue. Just read a rave review of the motor as being more than adequate for a 3000 lb. boat sailing in the San Juans' current-laden waters.
The boat came with the mahogany one piece rudder, the original I assume. What a long blade! I couldn't even put the rudder on at the dock, too shallow, even though plenty of depth for the keel with CB up. Anyone know what the draft is on the one-piece rudder? Anyhow I need to do something about that long fixed rudder, and whatever I do has to cost way less than the $600+ Ruddercraft and the like. Anyone have plans/diagrams/photos for a DIY kick-up conversion?
All for now. Love the boat so far! She's in a short-term slip at the small marina and will see some more sailing Saturday, maybe Friday also, maybe even Sunday.
cheers, John S.
Howard, your blog--including the rudder info--has been a very valuable resource for me ever since I bought #215 two years ago. Many thanks to you for creating it and to Dave for hosting it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howard Audsley" <haudsley@tranquility.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2015 12:45:45 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Splashed Pajarita today! I have installed the gudgeons on three different rudders. Provided the rudder pin is straight (roll it on a flat surface to check for any wobble), and if the gudgeons will slide up and down the pin when not mounted, it can be made to work when mounted on a rudder. Trick is getting all three of them perfectly aligned. If not aligned, they will not want to slide. Get it right and it slides easy. I would suggest you keep working with what you have BEFORE you drill the holes out oversized. You almost certainly have a problem with alignment. So how to get it right? Started to type out the instructions, then remembered I did a blog on this once before, that thankfully, Dave has preserved. http://m17-375.webs.com/rudderandtiller.htm A couple other things can also be found there regarding the older M17's. Seems to be a recurring theme with many of them, so something new owners of older boats may want to consider. Howard On Sep 24, 2015, at 10:08 AM, swwheatley@comcast.net wrote:
John:
One-piece rudder is not supposed to be fixed. The gudgeons (fittings attached to rudder) are supposed to slide up and down on the pintle rod (rod held in fittings attached to transom). To be frank, it is a kludgy set-up, but I am too cheap to buy a new rudder. After 2 years of fine tuning and a new pintle rod, I still cannot get mine to slide smoothly. Next step will be drilling the gudgeon holes a smidge larger. Hopefully that will do it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Tosh" <billt@eastex.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 9:49:56 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Splashed Pajarita today!
John,,,, For your rudder fix, try JOWoodworks.com and talk to John Owens..... does excellent work and price is right, and while he does other stuff as handrails, hatch covers, etc etc, Rudders and daggers are his main forte.
Bill Tosh www.tcboats.com
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Conbert Benneck Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 8:19 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Splashed Pajarita today!
On 9/24/2015 1:35 AM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Congratulations John on your first sail with your new M17.
Half the fun of owning a boat is fixing things, or making improvement in its intended use.
Your description of what you found in your first sail, sound mostly minor, and a quick fix for someone with your know-how and capabilities.
"What a sweet boat" is a great description.
Have fun; go sailing; and don't forget to take your tool box along....!
Connie
Took my inaugural sail on Pajarita, my recently purchased '74 M17, today. My sailing pal Keith (Ranger 20 "Stoke" - yep, he's also a surfer) was along to help rig and test her out. What a sweet boat! Was at Lake of the Woods, in the highlands/mountains a bit east of Medford/Ashland area in southern Oregon. A mild and sunny late summer day with light to medium winds and an occasional fresh breeze, the latter pushing us up to near hull speed with the small jib and full main.
Some interesting discoveries and other comments:
Boat came with extra mainsheet type line and block rig for solo mast raising, and with mainsail and sheet/blocks already on boom with sail cover on. So I rigged it up as it was. Then I was wondering why in only a moderate breeze the main sheet took so much muscle to sheet in, didn't seem right compared to any other boat I've sailed. Took a closer look and noticed the block setup was only 3 turns. Took a second look at the alleged mast raising block/line and it is 4 turns, and less bulky to boot. I can only assume the former owner was sailing with the mast raising tackle, and had the mainsheet tackle in the mast raising gear bucket...!
The main and jib halyards are nice color coded line - green halyard for main/stbd, red for jib/port - but they're in the opposite sheaves they should be at masthead! Not tangled...just need to be pulled and swapped port/stbd (they are even color coded, ). Worked around it by just cleating the halyards on the "wrong" sides for now.
The boat sat with the CB line apparently wrapped quite tight around the CB winch for quite a while (boat was stored for ~1.5 years before I bought it). The line against the winch appears to have gotten compacted and smoothed and slips quite a bit while trying to raise the CB, even with 4 turns on the winch. This is exacerbated by use of a poorly placed and nearly too small jam cleat with too tight of fairlead to secure the CB line, and a rather flimsy plastic winch handle that is also too long to turn 360 deg. without hitting CB trunk, and a CB winch that doesn't seem to have the function of letting the handle ratchet back and forth as it turns the winch.
The flex in the transom at the (nice stainless, adjustable, spring-loaded) motor mount with the Tohatsu 6hp SailPro is not IMO sustainable. Just sitting still with the motor raised, even, if the boat bounces in a little chop. Flex, flex, flex.... Not to mention actually motoring! There is a backing plate inside the hull, but a poorly done one. The flex/stress on the transom due to motor weight is more a concern for me than trim issues due to the weight.
Also, at something less than half throttle I think we were pretty much at hull speed (with CB down no less). Cranking up the throttle led to stern settling and even more flex/stress on the mount/transom. So that motor seems like significant overkill for an M17. I could mount it direct in cutout but then there's the rudder/motor/prop interference issue. Just read a rave review of the motor as being more than adequate for a 3000 lb. boat sailing in the San Juans' current-laden waters.
The boat came with the mahogany one piece rudder, the original I assume. What a long blade! I couldn't even put the rudder on at the dock, too shallow, even though plenty of depth for the keel with CB up. Anyone know what the draft is on the one-piece rudder? Anyhow I need to do something about that long fixed rudder, and whatever I do has to cost way less than the $600+ Ruddercraft and the like. Anyone have plans/diagrams/photos for a DIY kick-up conversion?
All for now. Love the boat so far! She's in a short-term slip at the small marina and will see some more sailing Saturday, maybe Friday also, maybe even Sunday.
cheers, John S.
Nice report, John. I have a used IDA kickup rudder on mine and cannot lower it completely with the boat on the trailer even though the cb housing sits at least a foot above the driveway. Am considering cutting the bottom of it off so I can at least haul the boat out of the water without dragging the end of the rudder on the launch ramp if I forget to raise the rudder before hauling it out. Holy cow if I forget about that rudder and try to back the boat anywhere, could be curtains for a rudder gudgeon or two. Glad to hear you are enjoying the craft already. fair winds, Tom B On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 1:35 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Took my inaugural sail on Pajarita, my recently purchased '74 M17, today. My sailing pal Keith (Ranger 20 "Stoke" - yep, he's also a surfer) was along to help rig and test her out. What a sweet boat! Was at Lake of the Woods, in the highlands/mountains a bit east of Medford/Ashland area in southern Oregon. A mild and sunny late summer day with light to medium winds and an occasional fresh breeze, the latter pushing us up to near hull speed with the small jib and full main.
Some interesting discoveries and other comments:
Boat came with extra mainsheet type line and block rig for solo mast raising, and with mainsail and sheet/blocks already on boom with sail cover on. So I rigged it up as it was. Then I was wondering why in only a moderate breeze the main sheet took so much muscle to sheet in, didn't seem right compared to any other boat I've sailed. Took a closer look and noticed the block setup was only 3 turns. Took a second look at the alleged mast raising block/line and it is 4 turns, and less bulky to boot. I can only assume the former owner was sailing with the mast raising tackle, and had the mainsheet tackle in the mast raising gear bucket...!
The main and jib halyards are nice color coded line - green halyard for main/stbd, red for jib/port - but they're in the opposite sheaves they should be at masthead! Not tangled...just need to be pulled and swapped port/stbd (they are even color coded, ). Worked around it by just cleating the halyards on the "wrong" sides for now.
The boat sat with the CB line apparently wrapped quite tight around the CB winch for quite a while (boat was stored for ~1.5 years before I bought it). The line against the winch appears to have gotten compacted and smoothed and slips quite a bit while trying to raise the CB, even with 4 turns on the winch. This is exacerbated by use of a poorly placed and nearly too small jam cleat with too tight of fairlead to secure the CB line, and a rather flimsy plastic winch handle that is also too long to turn 360 deg. without hitting CB trunk, and a CB winch that doesn't seem to have the function of letting the handle ratchet back and forth as it turns the winch.
The flex in the transom at the (nice stainless, adjustable, spring-loaded) motor mount with the Tohatsu 6hp SailPro is not IMO sustainable. Just sitting still with the motor raised, even, if the boat bounces in a little chop. Flex, flex, flex.... Not to mention actually motoring! There is a backing plate inside the hull, but a poorly done one. The flex/stress on the transom due to motor weight is more a concern for me than trim issues due to the weight.
Also, at something less than half throttle I think we were pretty much at hull speed (with CB down no less). Cranking up the throttle led to stern settling and even more flex/stress on the mount/transom. So that motor seems like significant overkill for an M17. I could mount it direct in cutout but then there's the rudder/motor/prop interference issue. Just read a rave review of the motor as being more than adequate for a 3000 lb. boat sailing in the San Juans' current-laden waters.
The boat came with the mahogany one piece rudder, the original I assume. What a long blade! I couldn't even put the rudder on at the dock, too shallow, even though plenty of depth for the keel with CB up. Anyone know what the draft is on the one-piece rudder? Anyhow I need to do something about that long fixed rudder, and whatever I do has to cost way less than the $600+ Ruddercraft and the like. Anyone have plans/diagrams/photos for a DIY kick-up conversion?
All for now. Love the boat so far! She's in a short-term slip at the small marina and will see some more sailing Saturday, maybe Friday also, maybe even Sunday.
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Been there, done that, Tom! Luckily I only bent a gudgeon, no damage to the transom. Rick M17 #633 Lynne L On Thursday, September 24, 2015, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Nice report, John. I have a used IDA kickup rudder on mine and cannot lower it completely with the boat on the trailer even though the cb housing sits at least a foot above the driveway. Am considering cutting the bottom of it off so I can at least haul the boat out of the water without dragging the end of the rudder on the launch ramp if I forget to raise the rudder before hauling it out. Holy cow if I forget about that rudder and try to back the boat anywhere, could be curtains for a rudder gudgeon or two. Glad to hear you are enjoying the craft already. fair winds, Tom B
On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 1:35 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net <javascript:;>> wrote:
Took my inaugural sail on Pajarita, my recently purchased '74 M17, today. My sailing pal Keith (Ranger 20 "Stoke" - yep, he's also a surfer) was along to help rig and test her out. What a sweet boat! Was at Lake of the Woods, in the highlands/mountains a bit east of Medford/Ashland area in southern Oregon. A mild and sunny late summer day with light to medium winds and an occasional fresh breeze, the latter pushing us up to near hull speed with the small jib and full main.
Some interesting discoveries and other comments:
Boat came with extra mainsheet type line and block rig for solo mast raising, and with mainsail and sheet/blocks already on boom with sail cover on. So I rigged it up as it was. Then I was wondering why in only a moderate breeze the main sheet took so much muscle to sheet in, didn't seem right compared to any other boat I've sailed. Took a closer look and noticed the block setup was only 3 turns. Took a second look at the alleged mast raising block/line and it is 4 turns, and less bulky to boot. I can only assume the former owner was sailing with the mast raising tackle, and had the mainsheet tackle in the mast raising gear bucket...!
The main and jib halyards are nice color coded line - green halyard for main/stbd, red for jib/port - but they're in the opposite sheaves they should be at masthead! Not tangled...just need to be pulled and swapped port/stbd (they are even color coded, ). Worked around it by just cleating the halyards on the "wrong" sides for now.
The boat sat with the CB line apparently wrapped quite tight around the CB winch for quite a while (boat was stored for ~1.5 years before I bought it). The line against the winch appears to have gotten compacted and smoothed and slips quite a bit while trying to raise the CB, even with 4 turns on the winch. This is exacerbated by use of a poorly placed and nearly too small jam cleat with too tight of fairlead to secure the CB line, and a rather flimsy plastic winch handle that is also too long to turn 360 deg. without hitting CB trunk, and a CB winch that doesn't seem to have the function of letting the handle ratchet back and forth as it turns the winch.
The flex in the transom at the (nice stainless, adjustable, spring-loaded) motor mount with the Tohatsu 6hp SailPro is not IMO sustainable. Just sitting still with the motor raised, even, if the boat bounces in a little chop. Flex, flex, flex.... Not to mention actually motoring! There is a backing plate inside the hull, but a poorly done one. The flex/stress on the transom due to motor weight is more a concern for me than trim issues due to the weight.
Also, at something less than half throttle I think we were pretty much at hull speed (with CB down no less). Cranking up the throttle led to stern settling and even more flex/stress on the mount/transom. So that motor seems like significant overkill for an M17. I could mount it direct in cutout but then there's the rudder/motor/prop interference issue. Just read a rave review of the motor as being more than adequate for a 3000 lb. boat sailing in the San Juans' current-laden waters.
The boat came with the mahogany one piece rudder, the original I assume. What a long blade! I couldn't even put the rudder on at the dock, too shallow, even though plenty of depth for the keel with CB up. Anyone know what the draft is on the one-piece rudder? Anyhow I need to do something about that long fixed rudder, and whatever I do has to cost way less than the $600+ Ruddercraft and the like. Anyone have plans/diagrams/photos for a DIY kick-up conversion?
All for now. Love the boat so far! She's in a short-term slip at the small marina and will see some more sailing Saturday, maybe Friday also, maybe even Sunday.
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net <javascript:;> - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Hi Rick, Bad moment that. Glad you didn't damage the transom. I added a third gudgeon to the middle to match the pintles on the used IDA rudder I bought and used a sturdy backing plate inside the boat. I do believe I will pull a hugh hole in the transom before anything else gives. I have rigged lines and clam cleats on the fore and aft edges of the rudder blade so I can raise and lower the kick up part from the boat. The lines lead through a hole in the tiller so by pumping the tiller up and down I can use it as a third class lever. The gizmo gives me a lot of mechanical advantage. My first M17 back in the early 80's had that sliding rudder ss rod incorporated in it and that worked well although I always worried that before it slid up to protect the rudder it would jam in the gudgeons and damage the transom. It would take a very smooth, gradually rising bottom to gently force that rod device to work properly with the rudder. Really like this site. Full of neat ideas and advice. Fair winds, Tom B On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> wrote:
Been there, done that, Tom! Luckily I only bent a gudgeon, no damage to the transom.
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Thursday, September 24, 2015, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Nice report, John. I have a used IDA kickup rudder on mine and cannot lower it completely with the boat on the trailer even though the cb housing sits at least a foot above the driveway. Am considering cutting the bottom of it off so I can at least haul the boat out of the water without dragging the end of the rudder on the launch ramp if I forget to raise the rudder before hauling it out. Holy cow if I forget about that rudder and try to back the boat anywhere, could be curtains for a rudder gudgeon or two. Glad to hear you are enjoying the craft already. fair winds, Tom B
On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 1:35 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net <javascript:;>> wrote:
Took my inaugural sail on Pajarita, my recently purchased '74 M17, today. My sailing pal Keith (Ranger 20 "Stoke" - yep, he's also a surfer) was along to help rig and test her out. What a sweet boat! Was at Lake of the Woods, in the highlands/mountains a bit east of Medford/Ashland area in southern Oregon. A mild and sunny late summer day with light to medium winds and an occasional fresh breeze, the latter pushing us up to near hull speed with the small jib and full main.
Some interesting discoveries and other comments:
Boat came with extra mainsheet type line and block rig for solo mast raising, and with mainsail and sheet/blocks already on boom with sail cover on. So I rigged it up as it was. Then I was wondering why in only a moderate breeze the main sheet took so much muscle to sheet in, didn't seem right compared to any other boat I've sailed. Took a closer look and noticed the block setup was only 3 turns. Took a second look at the alleged mast raising block/line and it is 4 turns, and less bulky to boot. I can only assume the former owner was sailing with the mast raising tackle, and had the mainsheet tackle in the mast raising gear bucket...!
The main and jib halyards are nice color coded line - green halyard for main/stbd, red for jib/port - but they're in the opposite sheaves they should be at masthead! Not tangled...just need to be pulled and swapped port/stbd (they are even color coded, ). Worked around it by just cleating the halyards on the "wrong" sides for now.
The boat sat with the CB line apparently wrapped quite tight around the CB winch for quite a while (boat was stored for ~1.5 years before I bought it). The line against the winch appears to have gotten compacted and smoothed and slips quite a bit while trying to raise the CB, even with 4 turns on the winch. This is exacerbated by use of a poorly placed and nearly too small jam cleat with too tight of fairlead to secure the CB line, and a rather flimsy plastic winch handle that is also too long to turn 360 deg. without hitting CB trunk, and a CB winch that doesn't seem to have the function of letting the handle ratchet back and forth as it turns the winch.
The flex in the transom at the (nice stainless, adjustable, spring-loaded) motor mount with the Tohatsu 6hp SailPro is not IMO sustainable. Just sitting still with the motor raised, even, if the boat bounces in a little chop. Flex, flex, flex.... Not to mention actually motoring! There is a backing plate inside the hull, but a poorly done one. The flex/stress on the transom due to motor weight is more a concern for me than trim issues due to the weight.
Also, at something less than half throttle I think we were pretty much at hull speed (with CB down no less). Cranking up the throttle led to stern settling and even more flex/stress on the mount/transom. So that motor seems like significant overkill for an M17. I could mount it direct in cutout but then there's the rudder/motor/prop interference issue. Just read a rave review of the motor as being more than adequate for a 3000 lb. boat sailing in the San Juans' current-laden waters.
The boat came with the mahogany one piece rudder, the original I assume. What a long blade! I couldn't even put the rudder on at the dock, too shallow, even though plenty of depth for the keel with CB up. Anyone know what the draft is on the one-piece rudder? Anyhow I need to do something about that long fixed rudder, and whatever I do has to cost way less than the $600+ Ruddercraft and the like. Anyone have plans/diagrams/photos for a DIY kick-up conversion?
All for now. Love the boat so far! She's in a short-term slip at the small marina and will see some more sailing Saturday, maybe Friday also, maybe even Sunday.
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net <javascript:;> - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
My first M17 back in the early 80's had that sliding rudder ss rod
Jerry started out using stainless steel rods on the M17s. There was a problem with galling so he moved to silicon bronze. later he moved to aluminum bronze (stronger and stiffer than stainless and no crevice corrosion problems). the alum bronze supplier 'dried up' and Jerry went back to silicon bronze. -- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 11:14 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Rick, Bad moment that. Glad you didn't damage the transom. I added a third gudgeon to the middle to match the pintles on the used IDA rudder I bought and used a sturdy backing plate inside the boat. I do believe I will pull a hugh hole in the transom before anything else gives. I have rigged lines and clam cleats on the fore and aft edges of the rudder blade so I can raise and lower the kick up part from the boat. The lines lead through a hole in the tiller so by pumping the tiller up and down I can use it as a third class lever. The gizmo gives me a lot of mechanical advantage. My first M17 back in the early 80's had that sliding rudder ss rod incorporated in it and that worked well although I always worried that before it slid up to protect the rudder it would jam in the gudgeons and damage the transom. It would take a very smooth, gradually rising bottom to gently force that rod device to work properly with the rudder. Really like this site. Full of neat ideas and advice. Fair winds, Tom B
DON'T shorten the rudder! this can cause all sorts of problems, especially as you heal the boat. the deep spade rudder Jerry designs is one, of many, reasons the M15, M17 and Sage 17 sail so well. the rudder when down is about the draft of the boat when the centerboard is down. when the rudder is up (the sliding kind as designed by Jerry) is just slightly higher than the shoal keel. the early Ruddercraft rudders were to Jerry's specifications in size (depth, length & width). Ruddercraft no longer makes 'custom' rudders and only a few foils are offered. the ones i've seen are not to Jerry's spec. -- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 8:37 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Nice report, John. I have a used IDA kickup rudder on mine and cannot lower it completely with the boat on the trailer even though the cb housing sits at least a foot above the driveway. Am considering cutting the bottom of it off so I can at least haul the boat out of the water without dragging the end of the rudder on the launch ramp if I forget to raise the rudder before hauling it out. Holy cow if I forget about that rudder and try to back the boat anywhere, could be curtains for a rudder gudgeon or two. Glad to hear you are enjoying the craft already. fair winds, Tom B
Was hoping for some of your imput, Dave. I believe I have one of those earlier IDA rudders. I will leave it alone and work some failsafe features into it so I can keep it designed length. I forgot it is also part of the lateral resistance figured into the boat balance. thanks, Tom B On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
DON'T shorten the rudder! this can cause all sorts of problems, especially as you heal the boat. the deep spade rudder Jerry designs is one, of many, reasons the M15, M17 and Sage 17 sail so well.
the rudder when down is about the draft of the boat when the centerboard is down. when the rudder is up (the sliding kind as designed by Jerry) is just slightly higher than the shoal keel.
the early Ruddercraft rudders were to Jerry's specifications in size (depth, length & width). Ruddercraft no longer makes 'custom' rudders and only a few foils are offered. the ones i've seen are not to Jerry's spec.
-- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com
On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 8:37 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Nice report, John. I have a used IDA kickup rudder on mine and cannot lower it completely with the boat on the trailer even though the cb housing sits at least a foot above the driveway. Am considering cutting the bottom of it off so I can at least haul the boat out of the water without dragging the end of the rudder on the launch ramp if I forget to raise the rudder before hauling it out. Holy cow if I forget about that rudder and try to back the boat anywhere, could be curtains for a rudder gudgeon or two. Glad to hear you are enjoying the craft already. fair winds, Tom B
my checklist is always this just before launching and just before pulling boat onto trailer - * centerboard up (always check before launching in case someone loosened the pennant). * motor up * rudder up when i first got my M15 i had a written list that i checked things off as they were done. -- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 11:07 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Was hoping for some of your imput, Dave. I believe I have one of those earlier IDA rudders. I will leave it alone and work some failsafe features into it so I can keep it designed length. I forgot it is also part of the lateral resistance figured into the boat balance. thanks, Tom B
On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
DON'T shorten the rudder! this can cause all sorts of problems, especially as you heal the boat. the deep spade rudder Jerry designs is one, of many, reasons the M15, M17 and Sage 17 sail so well.
the rudder when down is about the draft of the boat when the centerboard is down. when the rudder is up (the sliding kind as designed by Jerry) is just slightly higher than the shoal keel.
the early Ruddercraft rudders were to Jerry's specifications in size (depth, length & width). Ruddercraft no longer makes 'custom' rudders and only a few foils are offered. the ones i've seen are not to Jerry's spec.
-- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com
On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 8:37 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Nice report, John. I have a used IDA kickup rudder on mine and cannot lower it completely with the boat on the trailer even though the cb housing sits at least a foot above the driveway. Am considering cutting the bottom of it off so I can at least haul the boat out of the water without dragging the end of the rudder on the launch ramp if I forget to raise the rudder before hauling it out. Holy cow if I forget about that rudder and try to back the boat anywhere, could be curtains for a rudder gudgeon or two. Glad to hear you are enjoying the craft already. fair winds, Tom B
Good point! On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 12:12 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
my checklist is always this just before launching and just before pulling boat onto trailer -
* centerboard up (always check before launching in case someone loosened the pennant). * motor up * rudder up
when i first got my M15 i had a written list that i checked things off as they were done.
-- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com
On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 11:07 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Was hoping for some of your imput, Dave. I believe I have one of those earlier IDA rudders. I will leave it alone and work some failsafe features into it so I can keep it designed length. I forgot it is also part of the lateral resistance figured into the boat balance. thanks, Tom B
On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
DON'T shorten the rudder! this can cause all sorts of problems, especially as you heal the boat. the deep spade rudder Jerry designs is one, of many, reasons the M15, M17 and Sage 17 sail so well.
the rudder when down is about the draft of the boat when the centerboard is down. when the rudder is up (the sliding kind as designed by Jerry) is just slightly higher than the shoal keel.
the early Ruddercraft rudders were to Jerry's specifications in size (depth, length & width). Ruddercraft no longer makes 'custom' rudders and only a few foils are offered. the ones i've seen are not to Jerry's spec.
-- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com
On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 8:37 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Nice report, John. I have a used IDA kickup rudder on mine and cannot lower it completely with the boat on the trailer even though the cb housing sits at least a foot above the driveway. Am considering cutting the bottom of it off so I can at least haul the boat out of the water without dragging the end of the rudder on the launch ramp if I forget to raise the rudder before hauling it out. Holy cow if I forget about that rudder and try to back the boat anywhere, could be curtains for a rudder gudgeon or two. Glad to hear you are enjoying the craft already. fair winds, Tom B
participants (9)
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Bill Tosh -
Conbert Benneck -
Dave Scobie -
Howard Audsley -
John Schinnerer -
Rick Davies -
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Thomas Buzzi -
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