To the Group; I recently bought M15 # 128 which I knew had some damage at the keel/hull connection over the rear keel roller which turns out to be under the aft bulkhead plywood panel. Jerry if you are out there this is the boat we discussed last month that you said you would like to look at. I would be glad to bring to you as soon as I get the hubs I ordered and am mobile. Anyway the gel coat cracking looked pretty minor so I thought I would open it up to see if there was any structural damage to the fiberglass fabric. What I found is that the fiberglass thickness at the hull/keel joint is very thin. It looks like only two glass layers and probably isn't a full 1/8" thick. Needless to say when I removed the damaged fabric I went clear thorough on one side. I first thought that I need to back it up from inside but it is a very hard area to access. Then I thought I could remove the cockpit floor or maybe install a watertight access port in the cockpit floor. But as I gave it more thought I decided that I am concerned about the thin layer of glass in an area that needs strength. I am now thinking of adding a four layer or so fillet along the outside of the keel/hull joint all the way around ( maybe flaring to 10" or so wide on the last cloth layer). I thought I would use epoxy and structural fabric. I think four layers should be enough and then I would finish and flair with Marine Tex for the UV protection and extra strength. I'm not too concerned with aesthetics as the boat is old and has a bunch of dings anyway. I realize this will change the underwater profile a little but it doesn't seem too critical. Has anyone tried such a repair? Is everyone's keel/hull joint this thin? Does my approach seems reasonable? Is four layers of fabric enough? Jerry if you are out there is this a good idea or should I get access to the interior? If this isn't an appropriate subject for the group I can be reached at email wesi@comcast.net. As always I appreciate the help I get from other members of this group and am especially glad that we have Jerry and Bob as lurkers. Who would think that you could still get advice from the builder(s) on a 30 year old boat. Thanks, Ken Wheeler M15 # 128.
Ken...see my answers below.... Bob Eeg
From: wesi@comcast.net To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 18:59:37 -0700 Subject: M_Boats: Repairs to M-15
To the Group;
I recently bought M15 # 128 which I knew had some damage at the keel/hull connection over the rear keel roller which turns out to be under the aft bulkhead plywood panel. Jerry if you are out there this is the boat we discussed last month that you said you would like to look at. I would be glad to bring to you as soon as I get the hubs I ordered and am mobile. Anyway the gel coat cracking looked pretty minor so I thought I would open it up to see if there was any structural damage to the fiberglass fabric. What I found is that the fiberglass thickness at the hull/keel joint is very thin. It looks like only two glass layers and probably isn't a full 1/8" thick. Needless to say when I removed the damaged fabric I went clear thorough on one side. I first thought that I need to back it up from inside but it is a very hard area to access. Then I thought I could remove the cockpit floor or maybe install a watertight access port in the cockpit floor. But as I gave it more thought I decided that I am concerned about the thin layer of glass in an area that needs strength. I am now thinking of adding a four layer or so fillet along the outside of the keel/hull joint all the way around ( maybe flaring to 10" or so wide on the last cloth layer). I thought I would use epoxy and structural fabric. I think four layers should be enough and then I would finish and flair with Marine Tex for the UV protection and extra strength. I'm not too concerned with aesthetics as the boat is old and has a bunch of dings anyway. I realize this will change the underwater profile a little but it doesn't seem too critical.
Has anyone tried such a repair?
I WOULD GRIND OFF THE GELCOAT ON THE OUTSIDE; LAY UP A LAYER OF MAT AND ROVING; USING WEST SYSTEM EXPOXY; SAND, FAIR AND GO AHEAD AND USE MARINE TEX PAINT. OVERLAP 8 INCHES ON THE HULL TO THE KEEL BULB AND THAT WOULD BE PLENTY STRONG.
Is everyone's keel/hull joint this thin?
NO. USUALLY A LITTLE THICKER. OBVIOUSLY IT WAS STRONG ENOUGH OR THE BOAT WOULD BE FLAT BOTTOMED BY NOW. FIBERGLASS IS MUCH STRONGER THAN WE REALIZE.
Does my approach seems reasonable?
YES
Is four layers of fabric enough?
ALL YOU NEED IS A CLEAN, GELCOAT FREE AREA TO LAY UP A REINFORCING REPAIR. PREPARATION IS A KEY FACTOR. AFTER GRINDING (WITH A MASK) ALL THE GELCOAT OFF; CLEAN THE AREA WITH ACETONE; PRECUT ALL THE MATERIAL BEFORE HAND AND WET OUT THE PIECES ON DRY CARDBOARD; WET OUT ONE LAYER OF 2 OUNCE MAT; PRE WET THE HULL AS WELL. DAB ALL THE FLOATATION OUT (BUBBLES)...THEN WET OUT SOME 18 OUNCE WOVEN ROVING (PRE CUT) LAY THAT ON TOP OF THE MAT...DABBING AND USING A RUBBER SQUEEDGEE TO MAKE IT SMOOTH. LET IT KICK OFF. SAND THE BURRS AND BUMPS. FILL ANY HOLES WITH A MIX OF EPOXY AND TALCUM POWDER. SAND AGAIN AND PAINT WITH MARINE TEX. THIS WILL WORK JUST FINE. ONLY 2 LAYERS. BUT ON TOP OF WHAT YOU ALREADY HAVE. NO WORRIES. AS YOU GO AFT, YOU COULD OVERLAP ONLY 4 INCHES AND THAT WOULD DO JUST FINE.
Jerry if you are out there is this a good idea or should I get access to the interior?
GETTING INTO THE INTERIOR IS NEAR IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE KEEL AREA. THE LINER IS UP AGAINST THE HULL KEN.
If this isn't an appropriate subject for the group I can be reached at email wesi@comcast.net.
As always I appreciate the help I get from other members of this group and am especially glad that we have Jerry and Bob as lurkers. Who would think that you could still get advice from the builder(s) on a 30 year old boat.
I HAVE A NOSE PIECE FOR YOU. BTW.
Thanks, Ken Wheeler M15 # 128. _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Bob, Thanks for the expert advice. Looks like a big job but I'll give it a try. ken ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob From California" <ocean37@hotmail.com> To: "Monty Listserver" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 9:45 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Repairs to M-15
Ken...see my answers below....
Bob Eeg
From: wesi@comcast.net To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 18:59:37 -0700 Subject: M_Boats: Repairs to M-15
To the Group;
I recently bought M15 # 128 which I knew had some damage at the keel/hull connection over the rear keel roller which turns out to be under the aft bulkhead plywood panel. Jerry if you are out there this is the boat we discussed last month that you said you would like to look at. I would be glad to bring to you as soon as I get the hubs I ordered and am mobile. Anyway the gel coat cracking looked pretty minor so I thought I would open it up to see if there was any structural damage to the fiberglass fabric. What I found is that the fiberglass thickness at the hull/keel joint is very thin. It looks like only two glass layers and probably isn't a full 1/8" thick. Needless to say when I removed the damaged fabric I went clear thorough on one side. I first thought that I need to back it up from inside but it is a very hard area to access. Then I thought I could remove the cockpit floor or maybe install a watertight access port in the cockpit floor. But as I gave it more thought I decided that I am concerned about the thin layer of glass in an area that needs strength. I am now thinking of adding a four layer or so fillet along the outside of the keel/hull joint all the way around ( maybe flaring to 10" or so wide on the last cloth layer). I thought I would use epoxy and structural fabric. I think four layers should be enough and then I would finish and flair with Marine Tex for the UV protection and extra strength. I'm not too concerned with aesthetics as the boat is old and has a bunch of dings anyway. I realize this will change the underwater profile a little but it doesn't seem too critical.
Has anyone tried such a repair?
I WOULD GRIND OFF THE GELCOAT ON THE OUTSIDE; LAY UP A LAYER OF MAT AND ROVING;
USING WEST SYSTEM EXPOXY; SAND, FAIR AND GO AHEAD AND USE MARINE TEX PAINT.
OVERLAP 8 INCHES ON THE HULL TO THE KEEL BULB AND THAT WOULD BE PLENTY STRONG.
Is everyone's keel/hull joint this thin?
NO. USUALLY A LITTLE THICKER. OBVIOUSLY IT WAS STRONG ENOUGH OR THE BOAT WOULD BE FLAT BOTTOMED BY NOW. FIBERGLASS IS MUCH STRONGER THAN WE REALIZE.
Does my approach seems reasonable?
YES
Is four layers of fabric enough?
ALL YOU NEED IS A CLEAN, GELCOAT FREE AREA TO LAY UP A REINFORCING REPAIR. PREPARATION IS A KEY FACTOR. AFTER GRINDING (WITH A MASK) ALL THE GELCOAT OFF; CLEAN THE AREA WITH ACETONE; PRECUT ALL THE MATERIAL BEFORE HAND AND WET OUT THE PIECES ON DRY CARDBOARD; WET OUT ONE LAYER OF 2 OUNCE MAT; PRE WET THE HULL AS WELL. DAB ALL THE FLOATATION OUT (BUBBLES)...THEN WET OUT SOME 18 OUNCE WOVEN ROVING (PRE CUT) LAY THAT ON TOP OF THE MAT...DABBING AND USING A RUBBER SQUEEDGEE TO MAKE IT SMOOTH. LET IT KICK OFF. SAND THE BURRS AND BUMPS. FILL ANY HOLES WITH A MIX OF EPOXY AND TALCUM POWDER. SAND AGAIN AND PAINT WITH MARINE TEX. THIS WILL WORK JUST FINE. ONLY 2 LAYERS. BUT ON TOP OF WHAT YOU ALREADY HAVE. NO WORRIES.
AS YOU GO AFT, YOU COULD OVERLAP ONLY 4 INCHES AND THAT WOULD DO JUST FINE.
Jerry if you are out there is this a good idea or should I get access to the interior?
GETTING INTO THE INTERIOR IS NEAR IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE KEEL AREA. THE LINER IS UP AGAINST THE HULL KEN.
If this isn't an appropriate subject for the group I can be reached at email wesi@comcast.net.
As always I appreciate the help I get from other members of this group and am especially glad that we have Jerry and Bob as lurkers. Who would think that you could still get advice from the builder(s) on a 30 year old boat.
I HAVE A NOSE PIECE FOR YOU. BTW.
Thanks, Ken Wheeler M15 # 128. _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
I HAVE A NOSE PIECE FOR YOU. BTW.
Hey Bob, I'm hoping the nose piece is for me! I posted some pictures a month or so back about the nose piece on my M15, and have been doing some keel work (though my work was on the leading edge and I used a significant amount of filler, that incidentally, worked *fantastic*) Shall I contact you by phone or email for more details on it? Here's a link to my pictures<http://picasaweb.google.com/Chris.R.Smith/BoatProgress#>for anyone who is interested! -- Chris
Opps..yes Chris...I have a nose piece for you. Email me after the weekend. Bob
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 10:53:53 -0500 From: chris.r.smith@gmail.com To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Repairs to M-15
I HAVE A NOSE PIECE FOR YOU. BTW.
Hey Bob,
I'm hoping the nose piece is for me! I posted some pictures a month or so back about the nose piece on my M15, and have been doing some keel work (though my work was on the leading edge and I used a significant amount of filler, that incidentally, worked *fantastic*)
Shall I contact you by phone or email for more details on it?
Here's a link to my pictures<http://picasaweb.google.com/Chris.R.Smith/BoatProgress#>for anyone who is interested!
-- Chris _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Will do, thanks! On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 10:55 AM, Bob From California <ocean37@hotmail.com>wrote:
Opps..yes Chris...I have a nose piece for you. Email me after the weekend.
Bob
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 10:53:53 -0500 From: chris.r.smith@gmail.com To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Repairs to M-15
I HAVE A NOSE PIECE FOR YOU. BTW.
Hey Bob,
I'm hoping the nose piece is for me! I posted some pictures a month or so back about the nose piece on my M15, and have been doing some keel work (though my work was on the leading edge and I used a significant amount of filler, that incidentally, worked *fantastic*)
Shall I contact you by phone or email for more details on it?
Here's a link to my pictures<http://picasaweb.google.com/Chris.R.Smith/BoatProgress#>for anyone who is interested!
-- Chris _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
-- Chris
Hey Bob, I'd like to arrange getting that nose piece from you, please email me directly at: chris.r.smith@gmail.com Thanks! Chris M15 Persephone On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 10:55 AM, Bob From California <ocean37@hotmail.com>wrote:
Opps..yes Chris...I have a nose piece for you. Email me after the weekend.
Bob
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 10:53:53 -0500 From: chris.r.smith@gmail.com To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Repairs to M-15
I HAVE A NOSE PIECE FOR YOU. BTW.
Hey Bob,
I'm hoping the nose piece is for me! I posted some pictures a month or so back about the nose piece on my M15, and have been doing some keel work (though my work was on the leading edge and I used a significant amount of filler, that incidentally, worked *fantastic*)
Shall I contact you by phone or email for more details on it?
Here's a link to my pictures<http://picasaweb.google.com/Chris.R.Smith/BoatProgress#>for anyone who is interested!
-- Chris _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
-- Chris
This is alarming! Nothing personal, but I refuse to believe that the glass at that point is only an eight inch thick! The keel would have dropped like a rock the first time in rough water. I would definately like to look at it, but I think your drill bit went thru a thin layer lf glass and hit a void. If I'm wrong, I'll offer to buy the boat from you and fix it myself: I don't want it on the water for obvious reasons, no matter how old it is. When we layed up the hull on a 15, we skin it out with a layer consisting of a mat and a cloth, which extends down into the recess of the keel several inches. The second layer, of a mat and a woven roving, does the same. That's probably about 3/16 thick. Then we layed up the keel, which is the same layup, and it extends up , covering the garboard strake, which is the one running along the keel. This, in total, gives about a ten or twelve inch overlap that is about 3/8" thick. Then after we set the last layer of ballast we cover that with a mat and a roving, which overlaps the overlap. I'm not sayhing it is impossible that we made a mistake of that seriousness, but it's about as likely as the earth being flat, I think. I'm betting that there is a void between the skin layer, which would be a bit thinner than 1/8", and the layers under. I hope. If you can bring the boat here that would be great, or maybe we could meet somewhere. I can find out the thickness of tbe laminate with a drill, in about 30 seconds. I have committments the next two saturdays, but that's all in the near future. jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Wheeler" <wesi@comcast.net> To: "Montgomery Boats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 6:59 PM Subject: M_Boats: Repairs to M-15
To the Group;
I recently bought M15 # 128 which I knew had some damage at the keel/hull connection over the rear keel roller which turns out to be under the aft bulkhead plywood panel. Jerry if you are out there this is the boat we discussed last month that you said you would like to look at. I would be glad to bring to you as soon as I get the hubs I ordered and am mobile. Anyway the gel coat cracking looked pretty minor so I thought I would open it up to see if there was any structural damage to the fiberglass fabric. What I found is that the fiberglass thickness at the hull/keel joint is very thin. It looks like only two glass layers and probably isn't a full 1/8" thick. Needless to say when I removed the damaged fabric I went clear thorough on one side. I first thought that I need to back it up from inside but it is a very hard area to access. Then I thought I could remove the cockpit floor or maybe install a watertight access port in the cockpit floor. But as I gave it more thought I decided that I am concerned about the thin layer of glass in an area that needs strength. I am now thinking of adding a four layer or so fillet along the outside of the keel/hull joint all the way around ( maybe flaring to 10" or so wide on the last cloth layer). I thought I would use epoxy and structural fabric. I think four layers should be enough and then I would finish and flair with Marine Tex for the UV protection and extra strength. I'm not too concerned with aesthetics as the boat is old and has a bunch of dings anyway. I realize this will change the underwater profile a little but it doesn't seem too critical.
Has anyone tried such a repair? Is everyone's keel/hull joint this thin? Does my approach seems reasonable? Is four layers of fabric enough? Jerry if you are out there is this a good idea or should I get access to the interior? If this isn't an appropriate subject for the group I can be reached at email wesi@comcast.net.
As always I appreciate the help I get from other members of this group and am especially glad that we have Jerry and Bob as lurkers. Who would think that you could still get advice from the builder(s) on a 30 year old boat.
Thanks, Ken Wheeler M15 # 128. _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Hi Jerry, Always nice to hear from you. I remember you gave me advice with the M17 I had and you were always spot on. I have the M15 in the driveway with the hubs off. I'm waiting for the new hubs and when they come I would love to bring the boat to you. It's about 100 degrees here (Santa Rosa) now but when it cools off this evening I will measure the thickness. I ended up with a hole about 1" x 3" while looking for some undamaged glass. It's entirely possible I exaggerated on the 1/8" so I'll check it more closely, it just looked much thinner that I expected but Bob is right if it were that thin it seems like there would be more damage in a 30 year old boat. This is the only damage on the keel/hull connection and it is right above the aft keel roller on both sides. I think the prior owner must have damaged it while towing. The rest of the hull looks pretty good to me. I love your boats and am anxious to get this one out sailing. I'll contact you as soon as I have the new hubs on and I can bring the boat to you. I'm not that far from Sacramento and would love to have the builder take a look. Maybe you know a good glass repair shop. The economy has almost retired me so I can pretty much fit whatever schedule works for you. If you email me back at wesi@comcast.net we can keep this off the msog site. The other guys are probably bored with it by now and I don't want to give anyone the idea that these boats aren't bulletproof. Every time I drilled a hole in the M17 I was amazed at how thick the layup was. Thanks for your help and advice, Ken Wheeler M15 # 128 ----- Original Message ----- From: "jerry" <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 12:03 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Repairs to M-15
This is alarming! Nothing personal, but I refuse to believe that the glass at that point is only an eight inch thick! The keel would have dropped like a rock the first time in rough water. I would definately like to look at it, but I think your drill bit went thru a thin layer lf glass and hit a void. If I'm wrong, I'll offer to buy the boat from you and fix it myself: I don't want it on the water for obvious reasons, no matter how old it is.
When we layed up the hull on a 15, we skin it out with a layer consisting of a mat and a cloth, which extends down into the recess of the keel several inches. The second layer, of a mat and a woven roving, does the same. That's probably about 3/16 thick.
Then we layed up the keel, which is the same layup, and it extends up , covering the garboard strake, which is the one running along the keel. This, in total, gives about a ten or twelve inch overlap that is about 3/8" thick. Then after we set the last layer of ballast we cover that with a mat and a roving, which overlaps the overlap.
I'm not sayhing it is impossible that we made a mistake of that seriousness, but it's about as likely as the earth being flat, I think. I'm betting that there is a void between the skin layer, which would be a bit thinner than 1/8", and the layers under. I hope.
If you can bring the boat here that would be great, or maybe we could meet somewhere. I can find out the thickness of tbe laminate with a drill, in about 30 seconds. I have committments the next two saturdays, but that's all in the near future.
jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Wheeler" <wesi@comcast.net> To: "Montgomery Boats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 6:59 PM Subject: M_Boats: Repairs to M-15
To the Group;
I recently bought M15 # 128 which I knew had some damage at the keel/hull connection over the rear keel roller which turns out to be under the aft bulkhead plywood panel. Jerry if you are out there this is the boat we discussed last month that you said you would like to look at. I would be glad to bring to you as soon as I get the hubs I ordered and am mobile. Anyway the gel coat cracking looked pretty minor so I thought I would open it up to see if there was any structural damage to the fiberglass fabric. What I found is that the fiberglass thickness at the hull/keel joint is very thin. It looks like only two glass layers and probably isn't a full 1/8" thick. Needless to say when I removed the damaged fabric I went clear thorough on one side. I first thought that I need to back it up from inside but it is a very hard area to access. Then I thought I could remove the cockpit floor or maybe install a watertight access port in the cockpit floor. But as I gave it more thought I decided that I am concerned about the thin layer of glass in an area that needs strength. I am now thinking of adding a four layer or so fillet along the outside of the keel/hull joint all the way around ( maybe flaring to 10" or so wide on the last cloth layer). I thought I would use epoxy and structural fabric. I think four layers should be enough and then I would finish and flair with Marine Tex for the UV protection and extra strength. I'm not too concerned with aesthetics as the boat is old and has a bunch of dings anyway. I realize this will change the underwater profile a little but it doesn't seem too critical.
Has anyone tried such a repair? Is everyone's keel/hull joint this thin? Does my approach seems reasonable? Is four layers of fabric enough? Jerry if you are out there is this a good idea or should I get access to the interior? If this isn't an appropriate subject for the group I can be reached at email wesi@comcast.net.
As always I appreciate the help I get from other members of this group and am especially glad that we have Jerry and Bob as lurkers. Who would think that you could still get advice from the builder(s) on a 30 year old boat.
Thanks, Ken Wheeler M15 # 128. _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
participants (4)
-
Bob From California -
Chris Smith -
jerry -
Ken Wheeler