Recommendations for replacing my furling headsail M17
Headsail is dying, coming apart, forestay is bent and kinked.Thinking about getting a new headsail, ideally furling, maybe suited for single-handing, since that is my normal mode.Has anyone tried a headsail with a shorter J and or LP dimension, including maybe a higher Clew?Any recommendations?Thanks,Tyler H.M17 Seranita1977 #232
Tyler, My 17, #258 is about to get a new 80% jib I am putting together from a Sailrite kit. I bought their machine last year and have had a lot of fun making covers and such for my 17. I am ready to tackle a sail. Judy made me a new mainsail last year, cannot highly recommend her, actually she sends the order over to Taiwan or Korea or some such place. Anyway, use a domestic maker, that way if you want to alter something you won't have to wait for a month or so to have it done. By the time you get through messing around with your sail which as old as it is is probably very weak anyway, you would be better served with a new one and put all your bucks towards that end. Good luck, Tom B, "AS-IS On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 5:39 PM, Tyler Heerwagen via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Headsail is dying, coming apart, forestay is bent and kinked.Thinking about getting a new headsail, ideally furling, maybe suited for single-handing, since that is my normal mode.Has anyone tried a headsail with a shorter J and or LP dimension, including maybe a higher Clew?Any recommendations?Thanks,Tyler H.M17 Seranita1977 #232
I have been pondering this myself, since at least two of my headsails are probably ancient, I single-hand a lot, and my passengers are seldom capable crew in that regard (e.g. they're not gonna just go change the headsail for me without major hand-holding). And, three new sails would be about 1/3 more $$$ than one sail and a reefer/furler. There is the windage penalty with the furler, plus a bit more to do when rigging up and down, to consider. Several folks here have used and recommended the CDI FF2 furler in past posts. I was just reading up on it and it seems to be a well thought out design, especially for trailer sailors. I wouldn't mess with the headsail/forestay attachment geometry, myself; no way do I know enough about that stuff. Different sail sizes will have different clew heights of course. My 80% is higher clew than the bigger sails. Working jib is probably a wee bit higher than genoa. Jerry can no doubt speak to this topic from vast experience. cheers, John S. On 08/17/2017 03:39 PM, Tyler Heerwagen via montgomery_boats wrote:
Headsail is dying, coming apart, forestay is bent and kinked.Thinking about getting a new headsail, ideally furling, maybe suited for single-handing, since that is my normal mode.Has anyone tried a headsail with a shorter J and or LP dimension, including maybe a higher Clew?Any recommendations?Thanks,Tyler H.M17 Seranita1977 #232
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
John, I've only had a CDI FF2 for 3 years now, in the first year year I was stepping the mast a lot doing some true trailer sailing & day trips as opposed to being in a Marina Slip. I kept the jib furled on the furler when trailering during the season, only taking it off when the boat was put away for the winter. In doing so I never found the CDI to add much if any time to the set up, it's flexible but tough construction makes it pretty seamless to use when stepping and un-stepping the mast. In the limited time I have had the CDI (relative to others on this email group), I have had a very good experience with it. It's been totally reliable and has never jammed or fouled on me irrespective of sailing conditions. Keith *Keith R. Martin, P.Eng.* *Burnaby, B.C. Canada* *Serenity, M17 #353* On 17 August 2017 at 15:50, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
I have been pondering this myself, since at least two of my headsails are probably ancient, I single-hand a lot, and my passengers are seldom capable crew in that regard (e.g. they're not gonna just go change the headsail for me without major hand-holding).
And, three new sails would be about 1/3 more $$$ than one sail and a reefer/furler. There is the windage penalty with the furler, plus a bit more to do when rigging up and down, to consider.
Several folks here have used and recommended the CDI FF2 furler in past posts.
I was just reading up on it and it seems to be a well thought out design, especially for trailer sailors.
I wouldn't mess with the headsail/forestay attachment geometry, myself; no way do I know enough about that stuff.
Different sail sizes will have different clew heights of course. My 80% is higher clew than the bigger sails. Working jib is probably a wee bit higher than genoa.
Jerry can no doubt speak to this topic from vast experience.
cheers, John S.
On 08/17/2017 03:39 PM, Tyler Heerwagen via montgomery_boats wrote:
Headsail is dying, coming apart, forestay is bent and kinked.Thinking about getting a new headsail, ideally furling, maybe suited for single-handing, since that is my normal mode.Has anyone tried a headsail with a shorter J and or LP dimension, including maybe a higher Clew?Any recommendations?Thanks,Tyler H.M17 Seranita1977 #232
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Thanks Keith for the first hand experience. A couple more "research" questions... What size jib is yours when fully unfurled? I think someone else said they had a 135 on a furler. Do you find you have to move the jib sheet blocks when reefing using the furler, to get proper sheet angle? Or does the clew position change as you reef in such a way that the same block location works OK? thanks, John S. On 08/17/2017 04:57 PM, Keith R. Martin wrote:
John,
I've only had a CDI FF2 for 3 years now, in the first year year I was stepping the mast a lot doing some true trailer sailing & day trips as opposed to being in a Marina Slip. I kept the jib furled on the furler when trailering during the season, only taking it off when the boat was put away for the winter. In doing so I never found the CDI to add much if any time to the set up, it's flexible but tough construction makes it pretty seamless to use when stepping and un-stepping the mast.
In the limited time I have had the CDI (relative to others on this email group), I have had a very good experience with it. It's been totally reliable and has never jammed or fouled on me irrespective of sailing conditions.
Keith
*Keith R. Martin, P.Eng.*
*Burnaby, B.C. Canada* *Serenity, M17 #353*
On 17 August 2017 at 15:50, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
I have been pondering this myself, since at least two of my headsails are probably ancient, I single-hand a lot, and my passengers are seldom capable crew in that regard (e.g. they're not gonna just go change the headsail for me without major hand-holding).
And, three new sails would be about 1/3 more $$$ than one sail and a reefer/furler. There is the windage penalty with the furler, plus a bit more to do when rigging up and down, to consider.
Several folks here have used and recommended the CDI FF2 furler in past posts.
I was just reading up on it and it seems to be a well thought out design, especially for trailer sailors.
I wouldn't mess with the headsail/forestay attachment geometry, myself; no way do I know enough about that stuff.
Different sail sizes will have different clew heights of course. My 80% is higher clew than the bigger sails. Working jib is probably a wee bit higher than genoa.
Jerry can no doubt speak to this topic from vast experience.
cheers, John S.
On 08/17/2017 03:39 PM, Tyler Heerwagen via montgomery_boats wrote:
Headsail is dying, coming apart, forestay is bent and kinked.Thinking about getting a new headsail, ideally furling, maybe suited for single-handing, since that is my normal mode.Has anyone tried a headsail with a shorter J and or LP dimension, including maybe a higher Clew?Any recommendations?Thanks,Tyler H.M17 Seranita1977 #232
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I recommend you get a 150%. This is the headsail the boat is designed to use. Any smaller sail will underpowered the boat in anything under 12 to 15 knots. Only if you are commonly sailing in very high winds would a smaller size be appropriate. :: Dave Scobie On Aug 17, 2017 11:07 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks Keith for the first hand experience.
A couple more "research" questions...
What size jib is yours when fully unfurled? I think someone else said they had a 135 on a furler.
Do you find you have to move the jib sheet blocks when reefing using the furler, to get proper sheet angle? Or does the clew position change as you reef in such a way that the same block location works OK?
thanks, John S.
On 08/17/2017 04:57 PM, Keith R. Martin wrote:
John,
I've only had a CDI FF2 for 3 years now, in the first year year I was stepping the mast a lot doing some true trailer sailing & day trips as opposed to being in a Marina Slip. I kept the jib furled on the furler when trailering during the season, only taking it off when the boat was put away for the winter. In doing so I never found the CDI to add much if any time to the set up, it's flexible but tough construction makes it pretty seamless to use when stepping and un-stepping the mast.
In the limited time I have had the CDI (relative to others on this email group), I have had a very good experience with it. It's been totally reliable and has never jammed or fouled on me irrespective of sailing conditions.
Keith
*Keith R. Martin, P.Eng.*
*Burnaby, B.C. Canada* *Serenity, M17 #353*
On 17 August 2017 at 15:50, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
I have been pondering this myself, since at least two of my headsails are
probably ancient, I single-hand a lot, and my passengers are seldom capable crew in that regard (e.g. they're not gonna just go change the headsail for me without major hand-holding).
And, three new sails would be about 1/3 more $$$ than one sail and a reefer/furler. There is the windage penalty with the furler, plus a bit more to do when rigging up and down, to consider.
Several folks here have used and recommended the CDI FF2 furler in past posts.
I was just reading up on it and it seems to be a well thought out design, especially for trailer sailors.
I wouldn't mess with the headsail/forestay attachment geometry, myself; no way do I know enough about that stuff.
Different sail sizes will have different clew heights of course. My 80% is higher clew than the bigger sails. Working jib is probably a wee bit higher than genoa.
Jerry can no doubt speak to this topic from vast experience.
cheers, John S.
On 08/17/2017 03:39 PM, Tyler Heerwagen via montgomery_boats wrote:
Headsail is dying, coming apart, forestay is bent and kinked.Thinking
about getting a new headsail, ideally furling, maybe suited for single-handing, since that is my normal mode.Has anyone tried a headsail with a shorter J and or LP dimension, including maybe a higher Clew?Any recommendations?Thanks,Tyler H.M17 Seranita1977 #232
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I suspected something like this. Boats does not sail well under mail alone.I do sail in SF Bay some, but tend to stay in more sheltered waters.Tyler From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 5:15 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Recommendations for replacing my furling headsail M17 I recommend you get a 150%. This is the headsail the boat is designed to use. Any smaller sail will underpowered the boat in anything under 12 to 15 knots. Only if you are commonly sailing in very high winds would a smaller size be appropriate. :: Dave Scobie On Aug 17, 2017 11:07 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks Keith for the first hand experience.
A couple more "research" questions...
What size jib is yours when fully unfurled? I think someone else said they had a 135 on a furler.
Do you find you have to move the jib sheet blocks when reefing using the furler, to get proper sheet angle? Or does the clew position change as you reef in such a way that the same block location works OK?
thanks, John S.
On 08/17/2017 04:57 PM, Keith R. Martin wrote:
John,
I've only had a CDI FF2 for 3 years now, in the first year year I was stepping the mast a lot doing some true trailer sailing & day trips as opposed to being in a Marina Slip. I kept the jib furled on the furler when trailering during the season, only taking it off when the boat was put away for the winter. In doing so I never found the CDI to add much if any time to the set up, it's flexible but tough construction makes it pretty seamless to use when stepping and un-stepping the mast.
In the limited time I have had the CDI (relative to others on this email group), I have had a very good experience with it. It's been totally reliable and has never jammed or fouled on me irrespective of sailing conditions.
Keith
*Keith R. Martin, P.Eng.*
*Burnaby, B.C. Canada* *Serenity, M17 #353*
On 17 August 2017 at 15:50, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
I have been pondering this myself, since at least two of my headsails are
probably ancient, I single-hand a lot, and my passengers are seldom capable crew in that regard (e.g. they're not gonna just go change the headsail for me without major hand-holding).
And, three new sails would be about 1/3 more $$$ than one sail and a reefer/furler. There is the windage penalty with the furler, plus a bit more to do when rigging up and down, to consider.
Several folks here have used and recommended the CDI FF2 furler in past posts.
I was just reading up on it and it seems to be a well thought out design, especially for trailer sailors.
I wouldn't mess with the headsail/forestay attachment geometry, myself; no way do I know enough about that stuff.
Different sail sizes will have different clew heights of course. My 80% is higher clew than the bigger sails. Working jib is probably a wee bit higher than genoa.
Jerry can no doubt speak to this topic from vast experience.
cheers, John S.
On 08/17/2017 03:39 PM, Tyler Heerwagen via montgomery_boats wrote:
Headsail is dying, coming apart, forestay is bent and kinked.Thinking
about getting a new headsail, ideally furling, maybe suited for single-handing, since that is my normal mode.Has anyone tried a headsail with a shorter J and or LP dimension, including maybe a higher Clew?Any recommendations?Thanks,Tyler H.M17 Seranita1977 #232
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Yeah, my M17 does not have a lot of drive under main alone. And, it will plug along steadily nonetheless (with an excess of weather helm of course). The local lake I am sailing on most, the "usual" afternoon wind is pretty brisk and I would be consistently overpowered - at least for my skill and comfort level and single-handing - with a 150 or anything close to it. It's a "mountain" lake, relatively long vs. wide, with forested hills surrounding (Howard Prairie lake in southern Oregon, here it is on windy.com: https://www.windy.com/42.237/-122.406?42.195,-122.434,12 ). The "usual" afternoon wind comes in a cycle of more moderate and then more intense, varying from half a minute to a couple minutes between changes. Sometimes there are shorter and much more intense gusts within a cycle. Sometimes it blows mostly at the higher end for a longer period. The lake narrows, and there is also an island, just upwind of the marina, so there is usually some gusty shifty excitement getting in position to get back to my slip. So I rig for the higher end winds, and just go slower in the more moderate periods. I remember going to Fern Ridge reservoir last year - bigger, rounder, and in a much flatter landscape - oh what bliss to have steady moderate breeze that stays the same (speed AND direction!) for as much as 10 minutes or more! ;-) cheers, John S. On 08/18/2017 08:53 AM, Tyler Heerwagen via montgomery_boats wrote:
I suspected something like this. Boats does not sail well under mail alone.I do sail in SF Bay some, but tend to stay in more sheltered waters.Tyler
From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 5:15 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Recommendations for replacing my furling headsail M17
I recommend you get a 150%. This is the headsail the boat is designed to use. Any smaller sail will underpowered the boat in anything under 12 to 15 knots.
Only if you are commonly sailing in very high winds would a smaller size be appropriate.
:: Dave Scobie
On Aug 17, 2017 11:07 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks Keith for the first hand experience.
A couple more "research" questions...
What size jib is yours when fully unfurled? I think someone else said they had a 135 on a furler.
Do you find you have to move the jib sheet blocks when reefing using the furler, to get proper sheet angle? Or does the clew position change as you reef in such a way that the same block location works OK?
thanks, John S.
On 08/17/2017 04:57 PM, Keith R. Martin wrote:
John,
I've only had a CDI FF2 for 3 years now, in the first year year I was stepping the mast a lot doing some true trailer sailing & day trips as opposed to being in a Marina Slip. I kept the jib furled on the furler when trailering during the season, only taking it off when the boat was put away for the winter. In doing so I never found the CDI to add much if any time to the set up, it's flexible but tough construction makes it pretty seamless to use when stepping and un-stepping the mast.
In the limited time I have had the CDI (relative to others on this email group), I have had a very good experience with it. It's been totally reliable and has never jammed or fouled on me irrespective of sailing conditions.
Keith
*Keith R. Martin, P.Eng.*
*Burnaby, B.C. Canada* *Serenity, M17 #353*
On 17 August 2017 at 15:50, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
I have been pondering this myself, since at least two of my headsails are
probably ancient, I single-hand a lot, and my passengers are seldom capable crew in that regard (e.g. they're not gonna just go change the headsail for me without major hand-holding).
And, three new sails would be about 1/3 more $$$ than one sail and a reefer/furler. There is the windage penalty with the furler, plus a bit more to do when rigging up and down, to consider.
Several folks here have used and recommended the CDI FF2 furler in past posts.
I was just reading up on it and it seems to be a well thought out design, especially for trailer sailors.
I wouldn't mess with the headsail/forestay attachment geometry, myself; no way do I know enough about that stuff.
Different sail sizes will have different clew heights of course. My 80% is higher clew than the bigger sails. Working jib is probably a wee bit higher than genoa.
Jerry can no doubt speak to this topic from vast experience.
cheers, John S.
On 08/17/2017 03:39 PM, Tyler Heerwagen via montgomery_boats wrote:
Headsail is dying, coming apart, forestay is bent and kinked.Thinking
about getting a new headsail, ideally furling, maybe suited for single-handing, since that is my normal mode.Has anyone tried a headsail with a shorter J and or LP dimension, including maybe a higher Clew?Any recommendations?Thanks,Tyler H.M17 Seranita1977 #232
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Sounds like where you sail is like Lake Travis outside of Austin, Tx. Long,narrow and steep hills on both sides. Last time I was on it with my 17, about 30 years ago I did know about the must have head sail for the Monty to go to weather. I tacked back and forth in that "wind tunnel" for a couple of hours then gave up going to windward and used the "iron jenny" to get upwind to the launch ramp. On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 12:08 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Yeah, my M17 does not have a lot of drive under main alone. And, it will plug along steadily nonetheless (with an excess of weather helm of course).
The local lake I am sailing on most, the "usual" afternoon wind is pretty brisk and I would be consistently overpowered - at least for my skill and comfort level and single-handing - with a 150 or anything close to it. It's a "mountain" lake, relatively long vs. wide, with forested hills surrounding (Howard Prairie lake in southern Oregon, here it is on windy.com: https://www.windy.com/42.237/-122.406?42.195,-122.434,12 ).
The "usual" afternoon wind comes in a cycle of more moderate and then more intense, varying from half a minute to a couple minutes between changes. Sometimes there are shorter and much more intense gusts within a cycle. Sometimes it blows mostly at the higher end for a longer period. The lake narrows, and there is also an island, just upwind of the marina, so there is usually some gusty shifty excitement getting in position to get back to my slip.
So I rig for the higher end winds, and just go slower in the more moderate periods.
I remember going to Fern Ridge reservoir last year - bigger, rounder, and in a much flatter landscape - oh what bliss to have steady moderate breeze that stays the same (speed AND direction!) for as much as 10 minutes or more! ;-)
cheers, John S.
On 08/18/2017 08:53 AM, Tyler Heerwagen via montgomery_boats wrote:
I suspected something like this. Boats does not sail well under mail alone.I do sail in SF Bay some, but tend to stay in more sheltered waters.Tyler
From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmis sion.com> Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 5:15 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Recommendations for replacing my furling headsail M17 I recommend you get a 150%. This is the headsail the boat is designed to use. Any smaller sail will underpowered the boat in anything under 12 to 15 knots.
Only if you are commonly sailing in very high winds would a smaller size be appropriate.
:: Dave Scobie
On Aug 17, 2017 11:07 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks Keith for the first hand experience.
A couple more "research" questions...
What size jib is yours when fully unfurled? I think someone else said they had a 135 on a furler.
Do you find you have to move the jib sheet blocks when reefing using the furler, to get proper sheet angle? Or does the clew position change as you reef in such a way that the same block location works OK?
thanks, John S.
On 08/17/2017 04:57 PM, Keith R. Martin wrote:
John,
I've only had a CDI FF2 for 3 years now, in the first year year I was stepping the mast a lot doing some true trailer sailing & day trips as opposed to being in a Marina Slip. I kept the jib furled on the furler when trailering during the season, only taking it off when the boat was put away for the winter. In doing so I never found the CDI to add much if any time to the set up, it's flexible but tough construction makes it pretty seamless to use when stepping and un-stepping the mast.
In the limited time I have had the CDI (relative to others on this email group), I have had a very good experience with it. It's been totally reliable and has never jammed or fouled on me irrespective of sailing conditions.
Keith
*Keith R. Martin, P.Eng.*
*Burnaby, B.C. Canada* *Serenity, M17 #353*
On 17 August 2017 at 15:50, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
I have been pondering this myself, since at least two of my headsails are
probably ancient, I single-hand a lot, and my passengers are seldom capable crew in that regard (e.g. they're not gonna just go change the headsail for me without major hand-holding).
And, three new sails would be about 1/3 more $$$ than one sail and a reefer/furler. There is the windage penalty with the furler, plus a bit more to do when rigging up and down, to consider.
Several folks here have used and recommended the CDI FF2 furler in past posts.
I was just reading up on it and it seems to be a well thought out design, especially for trailer sailors.
I wouldn't mess with the headsail/forestay attachment geometry, myself; no way do I know enough about that stuff.
Different sail sizes will have different clew heights of course. My 80% is higher clew than the bigger sails. Working jib is probably a wee bit higher than genoa.
Jerry can no doubt speak to this topic from vast experience.
cheers, John S.
On 08/17/2017 03:39 PM, Tyler Heerwagen via montgomery_boats wrote:
Headsail is dying, coming apart, forestay is bent and kinked.Thinking
about getting a new headsail, ideally furling, maybe suited for single-handing, since that is my normal mode.Has anyone tried a headsail with a shorter J and or LP dimension, including maybe a higher Clew?Any recommendations?Thanks,Tyler H.M17 Seranita1977 #232
--
John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
--
John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
John, I haven't sailed your lake but I'm in the vicinity. I had the CDI furler on my M17 with a 135 Genoa with heavier than usual sail cloth. Sailing the Oregon coast in the summer often means sailing in 15-25 kts with gusts well up into the 30s at times. The 135 cost me some speed on the occasions where wind was more moderate, but I generally liked it most of the time. Never had trouble with the CDI ff2 furler either. Mark M23 & M15 (and former M17) Winchester Bay & Roseburg, Oregon On Aug 18, 2017 10:20, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Yeah, my M17 does not have a lot of drive under main alone. And, it will plug along steadily nonetheless (with an excess of weather helm of course).
The local lake I am sailing on most, the "usual" afternoon wind is pretty brisk and I would be consistently overpowered - at least for my skill and comfort level and single-handing - with a 150 or anything close to it. It's a "mountain" lake, relatively long vs. wide, with forested hills surrounding (Howard Prairie lake in southern Oregon, here it is on windy.com: https://www.windy.com/42.237/-122.406?42.195,-122.434,12 ).
The "usual" afternoon wind comes in a cycle of more moderate and then more intense, varying from half a minute to a couple minutes between changes. Sometimes there are shorter and much more intense gusts within a cycle. Sometimes it blows mostly at the higher end for a longer period. The lake narrows, and there is also an island, just upwind of the marina, so there is usually some gusty shifty excitement getting in position to get back to my slip.
So I rig for the higher end winds, and just go slower in the more moderate periods.
I remember going to Fern Ridge reservoir last year - bigger, rounder, and in a much flatter landscape - oh what bliss to have steady moderate breeze that stays the same (speed AND direction!) for as much as 10 minutes or more! ;-)
cheers, John S.
On 08/18/2017 08:53 AM, Tyler Heerwagen via montgomery_boats wrote:
I suspected something like this. Boats does not sail well under mail alone.I do sail in SF Bay some, but tend to stay in more sheltered waters.Tyler
From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmis sion.com> Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 5:15 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Recommendations for replacing my furling headsail M17 I recommend you get a 150%. This is the headsail the boat is designed to use. Any smaller sail will underpowered the boat in anything under 12 to 15 knots.
Only if you are commonly sailing in very high winds would a smaller size be appropriate.
:: Dave Scobie
On Aug 17, 2017 11:07 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks Keith for the first hand experience.
A couple more "research" questions...
What size jib is yours when fully unfurled? I think someone else said they had a 135 on a furler.
Do you find you have to move the jib sheet blocks when reefing using the furler, to get proper sheet angle? Or does the clew position change as you reef in such a way that the same block location works OK?
thanks, John S.
On 08/17/2017 04:57 PM, Keith R. Martin wrote:
John,
I've only had a CDI FF2 for 3 years now, in the first year year I was stepping the mast a lot doing some true trailer sailing & day trips as opposed to being in a Marina Slip. I kept the jib furled on the furler when trailering during the season, only taking it off when the boat was put away for the winter. In doing so I never found the CDI to add much if any time to the set up, it's flexible but tough construction makes it pretty seamless to use when stepping and un-stepping the mast.
In the limited time I have had the CDI (relative to others on this email group), I have had a very good experience with it. It's been totally reliable and has never jammed or fouled on me irrespective of sailing conditions.
Keith
*Keith R. Martin, P.Eng.*
*Burnaby, B.C. Canada* *Serenity, M17 #353*
On 17 August 2017 at 15:50, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
I have been pondering this myself, since at least two of my headsails are
probably ancient, I single-hand a lot, and my passengers are seldom capable crew in that regard (e.g. they're not gonna just go change the headsail for me without major hand-holding).
And, three new sails would be about 1/3 more $$$ than one sail and a reefer/furler. There is the windage penalty with the furler, plus a bit more to do when rigging up and down, to consider.
Several folks here have used and recommended the CDI FF2 furler in past posts.
I was just reading up on it and it seems to be a well thought out design, especially for trailer sailors.
I wouldn't mess with the headsail/forestay attachment geometry, myself; no way do I know enough about that stuff.
Different sail sizes will have different clew heights of course. My 80% is higher clew than the bigger sails. Working jib is probably a wee bit higher than genoa.
Jerry can no doubt speak to this topic from vast experience.
cheers, John S.
On 08/17/2017 03:39 PM, Tyler Heerwagen via montgomery_boats wrote:
Headsail is dying, coming apart, forestay is bent and kinked.Thinking
about getting a new headsail, ideally furling, maybe suited for single-handing, since that is my normal mode.Has anyone tried a headsail with a shorter J and or LP dimension, including maybe a higher Clew?Any recommendations?Thanks,Tyler H.M17 Seranita1977 #232
--
John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
--
John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Hi John, I have a working jib(109), my boat is one of the very first of the V2 molds, it has short jib tracks (@18 inches) fitted in very close to the cabin. With the way my 109 is cut I typically have the sheet blocks set mid span most of the time. The 109 works out very well sailing in Georgia Straight in the spring and fall or just about any time sailing in Howe Sound! It pushes me along quite comfortably in the 12 to 18 kt range without having to furl the jib (with a reef in the main at the upper end of that range), and with the rig tensioned right it points pretty well on a close haul when fully unfurled and decently well when moderately reefed. I chose the 109 in concert with deciding to have an A3 asym which has plenty of drive in light air for AWA's from about 75 deg thru 165, perfect for reaching or running across Georgia straight in the light airs of summer. Without the A3 I would probably go with a 135 to get better performance in light air and still be manageable for long periods of time sailing in heavier weather. Given my local sailing conditions I don't think I would personally choose a 150 as it's more sail than I would want in a good percentage of my sailing opportunities, but that's perhaps just the conservative sailor in me talking. Keith Keith R. Martin, P.Eng Serenity, M17 #353 On Aug 17, 2017 10:07 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote: Thanks Keith for the first hand experience. A couple more "research" questions... What size jib is yours when fully unfurled? I think someone else said they had a 135 on a furler. Do you find you have to move the jib sheet blocks when reefing using the furler, to get proper sheet angle? Or does the clew position change as you reef in such a way that the same block location works OK? thanks, John S. On 08/17/2017 04:57 PM, Keith R. Martin wrote:
John,
I've only had a CDI FF2 for 3 years now, in the first year year I was stepping the mast a lot doing some true trailer sailing & day trips as opposed to being in a Marina Slip. I kept the jib furled on the furler when trailering during the season, only taking it off when the boat was put away for the winter. In doing so I never found the CDI to add much if any time to the set up, it's flexible but tough construction makes it pretty seamless to use when stepping and un-stepping the mast.
In the limited time I have had the CDI (relative to others on this email group), I have had a very good experience with it. It's been totally reliable and has never jammed or fouled on me irrespective of sailing conditions.
Keith
*Keith R. Martin, P.Eng.*
*Burnaby, B.C. Canada* *Serenity, M17 #353*
On 17 August 2017 at 15:50, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
I have been pondering this myself, since at least two of my headsails are
probably ancient, I single-hand a lot, and my passengers are seldom capable crew in that regard (e.g. they're not gonna just go change the headsail for me without major hand-holding).
And, three new sails would be about 1/3 more $$$ than one sail and a reefer/furler. There is the windage penalty with the furler, plus a bit more to do when rigging up and down, to consider.
Several folks here have used and recommended the CDI FF2 furler in past posts.
I was just reading up on it and it seems to be a well thought out design, especially for trailer sailors.
I wouldn't mess with the headsail/forestay attachment geometry, myself; no way do I know enough about that stuff.
Different sail sizes will have different clew heights of course. My 80% is higher clew than the bigger sails. Working jib is probably a wee bit higher than genoa.
Jerry can no doubt speak to this topic from vast experience.
cheers, John S.
On 08/17/2017 03:39 PM, Tyler Heerwagen via montgomery_boats wrote:
Headsail is dying, coming apart, forestay is bent and kinked.Thinking
about getting a new headsail, ideally furling, maybe suited for single-handing, since that is my normal mode.Has anyone tried a headsail with a shorter J and or LP dimension, including maybe a higher Clew?Any recommendations?Thanks,Tyler H.M17 Seranita1977 #232
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
participants (6)
-
Dave Scobie -
John Schinnerer -
Keith R. Martin -
Mark Dvorscak -
Thomas Buzzi -
Tyler Heerwagen