Hesitate to even mention this to the Montgomery faithful -- don't want to trigger a wave of purist outrage -- but has anyone considered a wing keel on a Montgomery 17? Have mine in salt water which can cause problems with the CB trunk. Maybe a stainless plate about the same weight as the CB could be bolted up against the bottom of the keel. Could extend out to the sides as does a wing keel. Would achieve same weight, same shallow draft, and solve some CB problems. Probably not the same windward performance, but might be a reasonable trade off. Dick Straubel
I remember looking at winged-keel version that Montgomery was building in the 70's I think. Anyone out there got one? Ken from California ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Straubel" <dicknatta@yahoo.com> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 5:23 AM Subject: M_Boats: M17 wing keel -- sacrilege? Hesitate to even mention this to the Montgomery faithful -- don't want to trigger a wave of purist outrage -- but has anyone considered a wing keel on a Montgomery 17? Have mine in salt water which can cause problems with the CB trunk. Maybe a stainless plate about the same weight as the CB could be bolted up against the bottom of the keel. Could extend out to the sides as does a wing keel. Would achieve same weight, same shallow draft, and solve some CB problems. Probably not the same windward performance, but might be a reasonable trade off. Dick Straubel _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Ken, I have 1974 M17 #14 which has a fin keel with a rather long, wide, square sectioned bulb that might be thought of as a wing. It draws 39" and when Griselda belonged to my brother, we could outrun any of the keel/cb M17s on Lake travis. Griselda is now mine after sitting neglected in my brothers yard for 15 years. She is on her trailer in my yard getting a complete refit and I hope to have her back in the water soon. I had a bit of a delay in the work on her due to Hurricane Ike passing directly over us with 75 mph winds. I tied her down to house trailer anchor augers and she rode it out fine with only a shredded sunbrella cover to show for the storm. I am glad she was not in the water because I had 5 foot breaking waves over the dock and boathouse. When we get electric power back to run the sander and spray gun and I have repaired some damage to the house and dock, work will continue. Ron M17 #14 (fin keel) Griselda
From: wesi@comcast.net> To: dicknatta@yahoo.com; montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 08:13:53 -0700> Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 wing keel -- sacrilege?> > I remember looking at winged-keel version that Montgomery was building in > the 70's I think. Anyone out there got one?> Ken from California> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dick Straubel" <dicknatta@yahoo.com>> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 5:23 AM> Subject: M_Boats: M17 wing keel -- sacrilege?> > > Hesitate to even mention this to the Montgomery faithful -- don't want to > trigger a wave of purist outrage -- but has anyone considered a wing keel on > a Montgomery 17? Have mine in salt water which can cause problems with the > CB trunk. Maybe a stainless plate about the same weight as the CB could be > bolted up against the bottom of the keel. Could extend out to the sides as > does a wing keel. Would achieve same weight, same shallow draft, and solve > some CB problems. Probably not the same windward performance, but might be a > reasonable trade off.> > Dick Straubel> > > > > > _______________________________________________> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats> > > > _______________________________________________> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
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Ronnie, That sounds like what I saw, it came out right after the US lost the Americas cup to Australia whatever year that was. Everything was wing keels for awhile. Glad to hear yours performs so well, wish I had bought one back then instead of the Catalina 25 I bought. Anyway I am happy with my swing keel (centerboard) M17 but if I had a choice I would go for the fixed or wing keel. I think I'll take our earthquakes over your hurricanes any day. Ken from California ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronnie Keeler" <ronkeeler@hotmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 8:41 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 wing keel -- sacrilege? Ken, I have 1974 M17 #14 which has a fin keel with a rather long, wide, square sectioned bulb that might be thought of as a wing. It draws 39" and when Griselda belonged to my brother, we could outrun any of the keel/cb M17s on Lake travis. Griselda is now mine after sitting neglected in my brothers yard for 15 years. She is on her trailer in my yard getting a complete refit and I hope to have her back in the water soon. I had a bit of a delay in the work on her due to Hurricane Ike passing directly over us with 75 mph winds. I tied her down to house trailer anchor augers and she rode it out fine with only a shredded sunbrella cover to show for the storm. I am glad she was not in the water because I had 5 foot breaking waves over the dock and boathouse. When we get electric power back to run the sander and spray gun and I have repaired some damage to the house and dock, work will continue. Ron M17 #14 (fin keel) Griselda
From: wesi@comcast.net> To: dicknatta@yahoo.com; montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 08:13:53 -0700> Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 wing keel -- sacrilege?> > I remember looking at winged-keel version that Montgomery was building in > the 70's I think. Anyone out there got one?> Ken from California> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dick Straubel" <dicknatta@yahoo.com>> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 5:23 AM> Subject: M_Boats: M17 wing keel -- sacrilege?> > > Hesitate to even mention this to the Montgomery faithful -- don't want to > trigger a wave of purist outrage -- but has anyone considered a wing keel on > a Montgomery 17? Have mine in salt water which can cause problems with the > CB trunk. Maybe a stainless plate about the same weight as the CB could be
bolted up against the bottom of the keel. Could extend out to the sides as > does a wing keel. Would achieve same weight, same shallow draft, and solve > some CB problems. Probably not the same windward performance, but might be a > reasonable trade off.> > Dick Straubel> > > > > > _______________________________________________> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats> > > _______________________________________________> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
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We lost the cup in '83. If draft isn't an issue, I'd just go with a plain keel extension like the one on the MSOG photo site. It will be easier to get it to work well. Tod Mills M17 #408, 1987 galley model BuscaBrisas
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Ken Wheeler Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 10:12 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 wing keel -- sacrilege?
Ronnie, That sounds like what I saw, it came out right after the US lost the Americas cup to Australia whatever year that was. Everything was wing keels for awhile. Glad to hear yours performs so well, wish I had bought one back then instead of the Catalina 25 I bought. Anyway I am happy with my swing keel (centerboard) M17 but if I had a choice I would go for the fixed or wing keel. I think I'll take our earthquakes over your hurricanes any day. Ken from California ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronnie Keeler" <ronkeeler@hotmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 8:41 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 wing keel -- sacrilege?
Ken,
I have 1974 M17 #14 which has a fin keel with a rather long, wide, square sectioned bulb that might be thought of as a wing. It draws 39" and when Griselda belonged to my brother, we could outrun any of the keel/cb M17s on Lake travis. Griselda is now mine after sitting neglected in my brothers yard for 15 years. She is on her trailer in my yard getting a complete refit and I hope to have her back in the water soon.
I had a bit of a delay in the work on her due to Hurricane Ike passing directly over us with 75 mph winds. I tied her down to house trailer anchor augers and she rode it out fine with only a shredded sunbrella cover to show for the storm. I am glad she was not in the water because I had 5 foot breaking waves over the dock and boathouse. When we get electric power back to run the sander and spray gun and I have repaired some damage to the house and dock, work will continue.
Ron M17 #14 (fin keel) Griselda
From: wesi@comcast.net> To: dicknatta@yahoo.com; montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 08:13:53 -0700> Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 wing keel -- sacrilege?> > I remember looking at winged-keel version that Montgomery was building in > the 70's I think. Anyone out there got one?> Ken from California> --- -- Original Message ----- > From: "Dick Straubel" <dicknatta@yahoo.com>> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 5:23 AM> Subject: M_Boats: M17 wing keel -- sacrilege?> > > Hesitate to even mention this to the Montgomery faithful -- don't want to > trigger a wave of purist outrage -- but has anyone considered a wing keel on > a Montgomery 17? Have mine in salt water which can cause problems with the > CB trunk. Maybe a stainless plate about the same weight as the CB could be
bolted up against the bottom of the keel. Could extend out to the sides as > does a wing keel. Would achieve same weight, same shallow draft, and solve > some CB problems. Probably not the same windward performance, but might be a > reasonable trade off.> > Dick Straubel> > > > > > _______________________________________________> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi- bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats> > > _______________________________________________> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
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If a wing keel was used to replace the trunk/centerboard, what would that do to the draft?? Joe Seafrog M-17 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Wheeler" <wesi@comcast.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 10:11 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 wing keel -- sacrilege? Ronnie, That sounds like what I saw, it came out right after the US lost the Americas cup to Australia whatever year that was. Everything was wing keels for awhile. Glad to hear yours performs so well, wish I had bought one back then instead of the Catalina 25 I bought. Anyway I am happy with my swing keel (centerboard) M17 but if I had a choice I would go for the fixed or wing keel. I think I'll take our earthquakes over your hurricanes any day. Ken from California ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronnie Keeler" <ronkeeler@hotmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 8:41 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 wing keel -- sacrilege? Ken, I have 1974 M17 #14 which has a fin keel with a rather long, wide, square sectioned bulb that might be thought of as a wing. It draws 39" and when Griselda belonged to my brother, we could outrun any of the keel/cb M17s on Lake travis. Griselda is now mine after sitting neglected in my brothers yard for 15 years. She is on her trailer in my yard getting a complete refit and I hope to have her back in the water soon. I had a bit of a delay in the work on her due to Hurricane Ike passing directly over us with 75 mph winds. I tied her down to house trailer anchor augers and she rode it out fine with only a shredded sunbrella cover to show for the storm. I am glad she was not in the water because I had 5 foot breaking waves over the dock and boathouse. When we get electric power back to run the sander and spray gun and I have repaired some damage to the house and dock, work will continue. Ron M17 #14 (fin keel) Griselda
From: wesi@comcast.net> To: dicknatta@yahoo.com; montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 08:13:53 -0700> Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 wing keel -- sacrilege?> > I remember looking at winged-keel version that Montgomery was building in > the 70's I think. Anyone out there got one?> Ken from California> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dick Straubel" <dicknatta@yahoo.com>> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 5:23 AM> Subject: M_Boats: M17 wing keel -- sacrilege?> > > Hesitate to even mention this to the Montgomery faithful -- don't want to > trigger a wave of purist outrage -- but has anyone considered a wing keel on > a Montgomery 17? Have mine in salt water which can cause problems with the > CB trunk. Maybe a stainless plate about the same weight as the CB could be
bolted up against the bottom of the keel. Could extend out to the sides as > does a wing keel. Would achieve same weight, same shallow draft, and solve > some CB problems. Probably not the same windward performance, but might be a > reasonable trade off.> > Dick Straubel> > > > > > _______________________________________________> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats> > > _______________________________________________> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
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Would increase the draft by the thickness of the metal plate. When heeled, the wing might go down deeper as it tilts, but not significant and would not increase draft more than the thickness of the plate when not heeled. The plate could actually be quite thin, and weight or original board could be replaced by pouring a lead/resin gruel down into the trunk from above. The trick would be to design the rake of the wing blades and determine the position of the wing plate fore and aft on the keel to achieve the best helm balance. I believe the point of raking/sweeping the wings is to adjust the center of lateral resistance aft as the boat heels so the helms stays close to balanced. Was hoping Jerry would jump in on this idea -- but then again, he is apt to feel some of that purist indignity at the thought of a wing keel on a Monty and I am afraid of what he might say. BTW -- am about to order a new set of tan bark sails from Porpoise Sailing in Sarasota. Will have a 150% 5 oz. jenny on a furler and a 6 oz. main with two full battens and two 3/4 battens. I keep wearing out sails -- the heavy fabric in these should last longer than I will. Wayne Stevens at Porpoise has single handed all over the world and is a solid, salty citizen. --- On Sat, 9/20/08, Joe Murphy <seagray@embarqmail.com> wrote: From: Joe Murphy <seagray@embarqmail.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 wing keel -- sacrilege? To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 9:40 AM If a wing keel was used to replace the trunk/centerboard, what would that do to the draft?? JoeSeafrog M-17 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Wheeler" <wesi@comcast.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 10:11 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 wing keel -- sacrilege? Ronnie, That sounds like what I saw, it came out right after the US lost the Americas cup to Australia whatever year that was. Everything was wing keels for awhile. Glad to hear yours performs so well, wish I had bought one back then instead of the Catalina 25 I bought. Anyway I am happy with my swing keel (centerboard) M17 but if I had a choice I would go for the fixed or wing keel. I think I'll take our earthquakes over your hurricanes any day. Ken from California ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronnie Keeler" <ronkeeler@hotmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 8:41 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 wing keel -- sacrilege? Ken, I have 1974 M17 #14 which has a fin keel with a rather long, wide, square sectioned bulb that might be thought of as a wing. It draws 39" and when Griselda belonged to my brother, we could outrun any of the keel/cb M17s on Lake travis. Griselda is now mine after sitting neglected in my brothers yard for 15 years. She is on her trailer in my yard getting a complete refit and I hope to have her back in the water soon. I had a bit of a delay in the work on her due to Hurricane Ike passing directly over us with 75 mph winds. I tied her down to house trailer anchor augers and she rode it out fine with only a shredded sunbrella cover to show for the storm. I am glad she was not in the water because I had 5 foot breaking waves over the dock and boathouse. When we get electric power back to run the sander and spray gun and I have repaired some damage to the house and dock, work will continue. Ron M17 #14 (fin keel) Griselda
From: wesi@comcast.net> To: dicknatta@yahoo.com; montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 08:13:53 -0700> Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 wing keel -- sacrilege?> I remember looking at winged-keel version that Montgomery was building in
the 70's I think. Anyone out there got one?> Ken from California> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dick Straubel" <dicknatta@yahoo.com>> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 5:23 AM> Subject: M_Boats: M17 wing keel -- sacrilege?> > > Hesitate to even mention this to the Montgomery faithful -- don't want to > trigger a wave of purist outrage -- but has anyone considered a wing keel on > a Montgomery 17? Have mine in salt water which can cause problems with the
CB trunk. Maybe a stainless plate about the same weight as the CB could be
bolted up against the bottom of the keel. Could extend out to the sides as > does a wing keel. Would achieve same weight, same shallow draft, and solve > some CB problems. Probably not the same windward performance, but might be a > reasonable trade off.> > Dick Straubel> > >
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Hi- I thought I'd pipe in when time allows. I can't believe how busy I am for an old, semi- retired guy I think that means that I seldom get paid for most of the things I do! jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Straubel" <dicknatta@yahoo.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2008 8:05 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 wing keel -- sacrilege? Would increase the draft by the thickness of the metal plate. When heeled, the wing might go down deeper as it tilts, but not significant and would not increase draft more than the thickness of the plate when not heeled. The plate could actually be quite thin, and weight or original board could be replaced by pouring a lead/resin gruel down into the trunk from above. The trick would be to design the rake of the wing blades and determine the position of the wing plate fore and aft on the keel to achieve the best helm balance. I believe the point of raking/sweeping the wings is to adjust the center of lateral resistance aft as the boat heels so the helms stays close to balanced. Was hoping Jerry would jump in on this idea -- but then again, he is apt to feel some of that purist indignity at the thought of a wing keel on a Monty and I am afraid of what he might say. BTW -- am about to order a new set of tan bark sails from Porpoise Sailing in Sarasota. Will have a 150% 5 oz. jenny on a furler and a 6 oz. main with two full battens and two 3/4 battens. I keep wearing out sails -- the heavy fabric in these should last longer than I will. Wayne Stevens at Porpoise has single handed all over the world and is a solid, salty citizen. --- On Sat, 9/20/08, Joe Murphy <seagray@embarqmail.com> wrote: From: Joe Murphy <seagray@embarqmail.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 wing keel -- sacrilege? To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 9:40 AM If a wing keel was used to replace the trunk/centerboard, what would that do to the draft?? JoeSeafrog M-17 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Wheeler" <wesi@comcast.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 10:11 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 wing keel -- sacrilege? Ronnie, That sounds like what I saw, it came out right after the US lost the Americas cup to Australia whatever year that was. Everything was wing keels for awhile. Glad to hear yours performs so well, wish I had bought one back then instead of the Catalina 25 I bought. Anyway I am happy with my swing keel (centerboard) M17 but if I had a choice I would go for the fixed or wing keel. I think I'll take our earthquakes over your hurricanes any day. Ken from California ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ronnie Keeler" <ronkeeler@hotmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 8:41 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 wing keel -- sacrilege? Ken, I have 1974 M17 #14 which has a fin keel with a rather long, wide, square sectioned bulb that might be thought of as a wing. It draws 39" and when Griselda belonged to my brother, we could outrun any of the keel/cb M17s on Lake travis. Griselda is now mine after sitting neglected in my brothers yard for 15 years. She is on her trailer in my yard getting a complete refit and I hope to have her back in the water soon. I had a bit of a delay in the work on her due to Hurricane Ike passing directly over us with 75 mph winds. I tied her down to house trailer anchor augers and she rode it out fine with only a shredded sunbrella cover to show for the storm. I am glad she was not in the water because I had 5 foot breaking waves over the dock and boathouse. When we get electric power back to run the sander and spray gun and I have repaired some damage to the house and dock, work will continue. Ron M17 #14 (fin keel) Griselda
From: wesi@comcast.net> To: dicknatta@yahoo.com; montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 08:13:53 -0700> Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 wing keel -- sacrilege?> I remember looking at winged-keel version that Montgomery was building in
the 70's I think. Anyone out there got one?> Ken from California> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dick Straubel" <dicknatta@yahoo.com>> To: <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> Sent: Friday, September 19, 2008 5:23 AM> Subject: M_Boats: M17 wing keel -- sacrilege?> > > Hesitate to even mention this to the Montgomery faithful -- don't want to > trigger a wave of purist outrage -- but has anyone considered a wing keel on > a Montgomery 17? Have mine in salt water which can cause problems with the
CB trunk. Maybe a stainless plate about the same weight as the CB could be
bolted up against the bottom of the keel. Could extend out to the sides as > does a wing keel. Would achieve same weight, same shallow draft, and solve > some CB problems. Probably not the same windward performance, but might be a > reasonable trade off.> > Dick Straubel> > >
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participants (6)
-
Dick Straubel -
htmills＠zoominternet.net -
jerry -
Joe Murphy -
Ken Wheeler -
Ronnie Keeler