just measured an old M17 boom standing in the corner of the shop- it's 7'9" long. jerry
I've never heard of the boom itself hitting the backstay, but my new main has some extra roach at the top and full battens, and the batten pockets have been known to hang up in light air. Jerry: What does one have to do to arrange for a backstay adjuster? We had a fun race last weekend in which I finished 4th out of 6 boats, which doesn't sound too hot you know what I was racing against. 1st by a long shot (half hour) was a Hunter 21 racing sled that planes. (The only guy we have who has beaten him sails a Tartan 37 and is an experienced racer.) Next was a Newport 28. Right behind them was an Oday 32. Right behind them was me. Behind me was a Hunter 29 and way back behind them was a Catalina 22. That was scratch. On corrected time, I may take 2nd or 3rd. Have not seen the results yet. I was up front with the leaders in a tacking duel until near the end when I got headed off on my tack and they didn't. Somewhere in the middle while tacking back to the start line I realized I hadn't done anything to tension up the rig. My headstay was sagging way off and the leeward shrouds were both hanging loose. I can take care of the shrouds, but the backstay adjuster would help going to weather. Howard
Thanks Jerry. Your input is invaluable and very much appreciated. "Spirit" is M17 #648 built in 2008 with Dwyer mast & boom extrusions. A careful measurement reveals her boom w/ end fittings to be 8'-3/4" long (aluminum extrusion without any fittings is 8'-1/4") Jim Poulakis "Spirit" On Oct 9, 2008, at 1:49 PM, jerry wrote:
just measured an old M17 boom standing in the corner of the shop- it's 7'9" long.
jerry _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Jim, I measured the length of the boom on my M-17, It measures 7ft-11" from end to centerline of the tack pin and 8ft-01/4" to the center of the gooseneck slide. Regards..Arnold Sharpe M-17 "LITTLE BREEZE" hull # 265. On Oct 10, 2008, at 2:38 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
Thanks Jerry. Your input is invaluable and very much appreciated.
"Spirit" is M17 #648 built in 2008 with Dwyer mast & boom extrusions. A careful measurement reveals her boom w/ end fittings to be 8'-3/4" long (aluminum extrusion without any fittings is 8'-1/4")
Jim Poulakis "Spirit"
On Oct 9, 2008, at 1:49 PM, jerry wrote:
just measured an old M17 boom standing in the corner of the shop- it's 7'9" long.
jerry _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Thanks Arnold, From boom end to center of gooseneck slide of Spirit's boom is 8' 2.5". If I lop 2.5" off the end of the boom it will just clear the backstay at all angles. Anything more then this will put me into mainsail modification territory and I do NOT want to go there. Jim On Oct 10, 2008, at 3:35 PM, Arnold Sharpe wrote:
Jim, I measured the length of the boom on my M-17, It measures 7ft-11" from end to centerline of the tack pin and 8ft-01/4" to the center of the gooseneck slide. Regards..Arnold Sharpe M-17 "LITTLE BREEZE" hull # 265. On Oct 10, 2008, at 2:38 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
Thanks Jerry. Your input is invaluable and very much appreciated.
"Spirit" is M17 #648 built in 2008 with Dwyer mast & boom extrusions. A careful measurement reveals her boom w/ end fittings to be 8'-3/4" long (aluminum extrusion without any fittings is 8'-1/4")
Jim Poulakis "Spirit"
On Oct 9, 2008, at 1:49 PM, jerry wrote:
just measured an old M17 boom standing in the corner of the shop- it's 7'9" long.
jerry _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
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Jim, Just out of curiosity, what is the lenth of the luff on your mainsail? Do you raise the main to the very top? I ask because my boom does not hit the backstay until it is raised to a height equal to the split of the backstay. However, having said that, if I raise my main all the way then I find the upper edge of my leech will hit the backstay due to the cut of the roach. If I get enough power in the tack or jibe it's not a problem, but it has hung up on occassion. Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Poulakis" <picfo@comcast.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 8:16 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: 17 boom length
Thanks Arnold,
From boom end to center of gooseneck slide of Spirit's boom is 8' 2.5". If I lop 2.5" off the end of the boom it will just clear the backstay at all angles. Anything more then this will put me into mainsail modification territory and I do NOT want to go there.
Jim
On Oct 10, 2008, at 3:35 PM, Arnold Sharpe wrote:
Jim, I measured the length of the boom on my M-17, It measures 7ft-11" from end to centerline of the tack pin and 8ft-01/4" to the center of the gooseneck slide. Regards..Arnold Sharpe M-17 "LITTLE BREEZE" hull # 265. On Oct 10, 2008, at 2:38 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
Thanks Jerry. Your input is invaluable and very much appreciated.
"Spirit" is M17 #648 built in 2008 with Dwyer mast & boom extrusions. A careful measurement reveals her boom w/ end fittings to be 8'-3/4" long (aluminum extrusion without any fittings is 8'-1/4")
Jim Poulakis "Spirit"
On Oct 9, 2008, at 1:49 PM, jerry wrote:
just measured an old M17 boom standing in the corner of the shop- it's 7'9" long.
jerry _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
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Hi Joe.... That's the ticket. Never raise the main to the very top. I usually raise it to the top and lower it so the boom is about 19 inches up from the mast base. Tie in the boom downhaul and raise the sail-stop just underneath the boom. There is some room to shorten the boom on the boats with a loose footed main. (all the boats I build) Simply remove the gooseneck, cut 1.5 inches off, square and clean, press the gooseneck back into the boom and drill a #25 hole, follow with a 10-24 tap, install the stainless machine screw. (do it in two places off set from the old holes in the gooseneck. which you can't see anyway) Should take 15 minutes. Joe, I posted a few photos of your Idasailor Rudder on the Montgomery Trailersailor site. How is that rudder working for you?....any complaints? The reason I ask is WILLI on Strawanza is wanting one for the next leg of his solo world trip. His M_17 is on the hard while waiting for Typhoon Season in the Indian Ocean to pass. He said a couple of times the fixed rudder would get stressed out in horrible storm conditions while lying ahull. The boat would be sliding down the backside of a 40 foot wall and the rudder would DIG sideways....he wants to be able to LIFT the rudder totally CLEAR of the water in these conditions and we are probably going to beef up a new Idasailor rudder for him (more stainless gussets) and AIRBORNE it to Vanuatu. Fair winds Bob
From: seagray@embarqmail.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 22:05:41 -0400> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 17 boom length> > Jim,> Just out of curiosity, what is the lenth of the luff on your mainsail? Do > you raise the main to the very top? I ask because my boom does not hit the > backstay until it is raised to a height equal to the split of the backstay. > However, having said that, if I raise my main all the way then I find the > upper edge of my leech will hit the backstay due to the cut of the roach. > If I get enough power in the tack or jibe it's not a problem, but it has > hung up on occassion.> Joe> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Poulakis" <picfo@comcast.net>> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" > <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 8:16 PM> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 17 boom length> > > > Thanks Arnold,> >> > From boom end to center of gooseneck slide of Spirit's boom is 8'> > 2.5". If I lop 2.5" off the end of the boom it will just clear the> > backstay at all angles. Anything more then this will put me into> > mainsail modification territory and I do NOT want to go there.> >> > Jim> >> > On Oct 10, 2008, at 3:35 PM, Arnold Sharpe wrote:> >> >> Jim, I measured the length of the boom on my M-17, It measures> >> 7ft-11" from end to centerline of the tack pin and 8ft-01/4" to the> >> center of the gooseneck slide.> >> Regards..Arnold Sharpe M-17 "LITTLE BREEZE" hull # 265.> >> On Oct 10, 2008, at 2:38 PM, James Poulakis wrote:> >>> >>> Thanks Jerry. Your input is invaluable and very much appreciated.> >>>> >>> "Spirit" is M17 #648 built in 2008 with Dwyer mast & boom extrusions.> >>> A careful measurement reveals her boom w/ end fittings to be 8'-3/4"> >>> long (aluminum extrusion without any fittings is 8'-1/4")> >>>> >>> Jim Poulakis> >>> "Spirit"> >>>> >>> On Oct 9, 2008, at 1:49 PM, jerry wrote:> >>>> >>>> just measured an old M17 boom standing in the corner of the shop-> >>>> it's 7'9" long.> >>>>> >>>> jerry> >>>> _______________________________________________> >>>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/> >>>> montgomery_boats> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________> >>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________> >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats> >> >> > _______________________________________________> > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > > _______________________________________________> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Joe & Bob; Spirit’s stock Elliott Pattison mainsail: Luff 18’11”, Leech 20’1”, Foot 7’6.5” (measured from the center of the head, tack, and clew cringles). Joe: Tune your rig with the mast raked aft and set your boom gooseneck height to 19” per Bob’s instructions. Then tie off the downhaul and use a slide stop under the gooseneck as Bob recommends. Now - lift the end of the boom so it angles up above the backstay split. If the boom can’t swing without hitting the backstay then your boom is simply too long. If your boom is like mine it is probably about 2.5” too long. We now have a number of examples of older booms being 2.5” to 3.5” shorter then the newer booms. We also have newer M17 owners reporting that their leech hangs up on the backstay, or that their boom end hits when it gets near the backstay split. Coincidence? Bob: Your solution of cutting 1.5” from the gooseneck end of the boom is the most straightforward solution unless: 1) You’ve added a reefing system on the boom – which means that cutting the boom from the gooseneck will change the geometry of your boom hardware with respect to the clew reef cringles. 2) Your boom is 2.5” too long - in which case 1.5” isn’t enough. After re-examining everything. It looks like I can cut 2.5” off my boom’s end and still be able to properly reposition the outhaul block with enough room for that 1/2” “old age” allowance that Jerry’s feet recommend. This really isn’t all that complicated. just want to noodle everything out before I start chopping up a brand new boom. Jim On Oct 10, 2008, at 7:39 PM, Bob From California wrote:
Hi Joe....
That's the ticket. Never raise the main to the very top. I usually raise it to the top and lower it so the boom is about 19 inches up from the mast base. Tie in the boom downhaul and raise the sail-stop just underneath the boom.
There is some room to shorten the boom on the boats with a loose footed main. (all the boats I build)
Simply remove the gooseneck, cut 1.5 inches off, square and clean, press the gooseneck back into the boom and drill a #25 hole, follow with a 10-24 tap, install the stainless machine screw. (do it in two places off set from the old holes in the gooseneck. which you can't see anyway) Should take 15 minutes.
Joe, I posted a few photos of your Idasailor Rudder on the Montgomery Trailersailor site. How is that rudder working for you?....any complaints?
The reason I ask is WILLI on Strawanza is wanting one for the next leg of his solo world trip.
His M_17 is on the hard while waiting for Typhoon Season in the Indian Ocean to pass. He said a couple of times the fixed rudder would get stressed out in horrible storm conditions while lying ahull. The boat would be sliding down the backside of a 40 foot wall and the rudder would DIG sideways....he wants to be able to LIFT the rudder totally CLEAR of the water in these conditions and we are probably going to beef up a new Idasailor rudder for him (more stainless gussets) and AIRBORNE it to Vanuatu.
Fair winds
Bob
From: seagray@embarqmail.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 22:05:41 -0400> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 17 boom length> > Jim,> Just out of curiosity, what is the lenth of the luff on your mainsail? Do > you raise the main to the very top? I ask because my boom does not hit the > backstay until it is raised to a height equal to the split of the backstay. > However, having said that, if I raise my main all the way then I find the > upper edge of my leech will hit the backstay due to the cut of the roach. > If I get enough power in the tack or jibe it's not a problem, but it has > hung up on occassion.> Joe> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Poulakis" <picfo@comcast.net>> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" > <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 8:16 PM> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 17 boom length> > > > Thanks Arnold,> >> > From boom end to center of gooseneck slide of Spirit's boom is 8'> > 2.5". If I lop 2.5" off the end of the boom it will just clear the> > backstay at all angles. Anything more then this will put me into> > mainsail modification territory and I do NOT want to go there.> >> > Jim>
On Oct 10, 2008, at 3:35 PM, Arnold Sharpe wrote:> >> >> Jim, I measured the length of the boom on my M-17, It measures> >> 7ft-11" from end to centerline of the tack pin and 8ft-01/4" to the> >> center of the gooseneck slide.> >> Regards..Arnold Sharpe M-17 "LITTLE BREEZE" hull # 265.> >> On Oct 10, 2008, at 2:38 PM, James Poulakis wrote:> >>> >>> Thanks Jerry. Your input is invaluable and very much appreciated.> >>>> >>> "Spirit" is M17 #648 built in 2008 with Dwyer mast & boom extrusions.> >>> A careful measurement reveals her boom w/ end fittings to be 8'-3/4"> >>> long (aluminum extrusion without any fittings is 8'-1/4")> >>>> >>> Jim Poulakis> >>> "Spirit"> >>>> >>> On Oct 9, 2008, at 1:49 PM, jerry wrote:> >>>> >>>> just measured an old M17 boom standing in the corner of the shop-> >>>> it's 7'9" long.>
> >>>> jerry> >>>> _______________________________________________> >>>> http:// mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/> >>>> montgomery_boats> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________> >>> http:// mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats> >> >> _______________________________________________> >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats> >> >> > _______________________________________________> > http:// mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > _______________________________________________> http:// mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
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I have an Elliot Pattison as well. I don't have the precise measurements but what you have sounds on track. Does your sail have a roach? Mine has 4 half battens with a fair roach. And that's the part that catchs on the backstay. I will follow your (and Bob's) advice on setting the gooseneck at 19" high and see if the boom clears the backstay. I just finished installing blocks and cleats for reefing so I'm hoping I don't have to lop off any of the boom. Will check this out Monday. In the meantime, thanks to both you and Bob for the advice. Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Poulakis" <picfo@comcast.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 4:35 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: 17 boom length Joe & Bob; Spirit’s stock Elliott Pattison mainsail: Luff 18’11”, Leech 20’1”, Foot 7’6.5” (measured from the center of the head, tack, and clew cringles). Joe: Tune your rig with the mast raked aft and set your boom gooseneck height to 19” per Bob’s instructions. Then tie off the downhaul and use a slide stop under the gooseneck as Bob recommends. Now - lift the end of the boom so it angles up above the backstay split. If the boom can’t swing without hitting the backstay then your boom is simply too long. If your boom is like mine it is probably about 2.5” too long. We now have a number of examples of older booms being 2.5” to 3.5” shorter then the newer booms. We also have newer M17 owners reporting that their leech hangs up on the backstay, or that their boom end hits when it gets near the backstay split. Coincidence? Bob: Your solution of cutting 1.5” from the gooseneck end of the boom is the most straightforward solution unless: 1) You’ve added a reefing system on the boom – which means that cutting the boom from the gooseneck will change the geometry of your boom hardware with respect to the clew reef cringles. 2) Your boom is 2.5” too long - in which case 1.5” isn’t enough. After re-examining everything. It looks like I can cut 2.5” off my boom’s end and still be able to properly reposition the outhaul block with enough room for that 1/2” “old age” allowance that Jerry’s feet recommend. This really isn’t all that complicated. just want to noodle everything out before I start chopping up a brand new boom. Jim On Oct 10, 2008, at 7:39 PM, Bob From California wrote:
Hi Joe....
That's the ticket. Never raise the main to the very top. I usually raise it to the top and lower it so the boom is about 19 inches up from the mast base. Tie in the boom downhaul and raise the sail-stop just underneath the boom.
There is some room to shorten the boom on the boats with a loose footed main. (all the boats I build)
Simply remove the gooseneck, cut 1.5 inches off, square and clean, press the gooseneck back into the boom and drill a #25 hole, follow with a 10-24 tap, install the stainless machine screw. (do it in two places off set from the old holes in the gooseneck. which you can't see anyway) Should take 15 minutes.
Joe, I posted a few photos of your Idasailor Rudder on the Montgomery Trailersailor site. How is that rudder working for you?....any complaints?
The reason I ask is WILLI on Strawanza is wanting one for the next leg of his solo world trip.
His M_17 is on the hard while waiting for Typhoon Season in the Indian Ocean to pass. He said a couple of times the fixed rudder would get stressed out in horrible storm conditions while lying ahull. The boat would be sliding down the backside of a 40 foot wall and the rudder would DIG sideways....he wants to be able to LIFT the rudder totally CLEAR of the water in these conditions and we are probably going to beef up a new Idasailor rudder for him (more stainless gussets) and AIRBORNE it to Vanuatu.
Fair winds
Bob
From: seagray@embarqmail.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 22:05:41 -0400> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 17 boom length> > Jim,> Just out of curiosity, what is the lenth of the luff on your mainsail? Do > you raise the main to the very top? I ask because my boom does not hit the > backstay until it is raised to a height equal to the split of the backstay. > However, having said that, if I raise my main all the way then I find the > upper edge of my leech will hit the backstay due to the cut of the roach. > If I get enough power in the tack or jibe it's not a problem, but it has > hung up on occassion.> Joe> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Poulakis" <picfo@comcast.net>> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" > <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 8:16 PM> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 17 boom length> > > > Thanks Arnold,> >> > From boom end to center of gooseneck slide of Spirit's boom is 8'> > 2.5". If I lop 2.5" off the end of the boom it will just clear the> > backstay at all angles. Anything more then this will put me into> > mainsail modification territory and I do NOT want to go there.> >> > Jim>
On Oct 10, 2008, at 3:35 PM, Arnold Sharpe wrote:> >> >> Jim, I measured the length of the boom on my M-17, It measures> >> 7ft-11" from end to centerline of the tack pin and 8ft-01/4" to the> >> center of the gooseneck slide.> >> Regards..Arnold Sharpe M-17 "LITTLE BREEZE" hull # 265.> >> On Oct 10, 2008, at 2:38 PM, James Poulakis wrote:> >>> >>> Thanks Jerry. Your input is invaluable and very much appreciated.> >>>> >>> "Spirit" is M17 #648 built in 2008 with Dwyer mast & boom extrusions.> >>> A careful measurement reveals her boom w/ end fittings to be 8'-3/4"> >>> long (aluminum extrusion without any fittings is 8'-1/4")> >>>> >>> Jim Poulakis> >>> "Spirit"> >>>> >>> On Oct 9, 2008, at 1:49 PM, jerry wrote:> >>>> >>>> just measured an old M17 boom standing in the corner of the shop-> >>>> it's 7'9" long.>
> >>>> jerry> >>>> _______________________________________________> >>>> http:// mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/> >>>> montgomery_boats> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________> >>> http:// mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats> >> >> _______________________________________________> >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats> >> >> > _______________________________________________> > http:// mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > _______________________________________________> http:// mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
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Joe: Spirit's main has a generous roach with four battens but I have never had the roach hang up on the backstay like you and others have. Cutting down the boom from either end isn't going to keep the roach from snagging. I just have a hunch that when the longer booms started being used, the foot length on the mainsail was increased as well - thus setting the roach into the backstay. Just a theory... Jim On Oct 11, 2008, at 6:36 PM, Joe Murphy wrote:
I have an Elliot Pattison as well. I don't have the precise measurements but what you have sounds on track. Does your sail have a roach? Mine has 4 half battens with a fair roach. And that's the part that catchs on the backstay. I will follow your (and Bob's) advice on setting the gooseneck at 19" high and see if the boom clears the backstay. I just finished installing blocks and cleats for reefing so I'm hoping I don't have to lop off any of the boom. Will check this out Monday. In the meantime, thanks to both you and Bob for the advice. Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Poulakis" <picfo@comcast.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 4:35 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: 17 boom length
Joe & Bob;
Spirit’s stock Elliott Pattison mainsail: Luff 18’11”, Leech 20’1”, Foot 7’6.5” (measured from the center of the head, tack, and clew cringles).
Joe: Tune your rig with the mast raked aft and set your boom gooseneck height to 19” per Bob’s instructions. Then tie off the downhaul and use a slide stop under the gooseneck as Bob recommends. Now - lift the end of the boom so it angles up above the backstay split. If the boom can’t swing without hitting the backstay then your boom is simply too long. If your boom is like mine it is probably about 2.5” too long.
We now have a number of examples of older booms being 2.5” to 3.5” shorter then the newer booms. We also have newer M17 owners reporting that their leech hangs up on the backstay, or that their boom end hits when it gets near the backstay split. Coincidence?
Bob: Your solution of cutting 1.5” from the gooseneck end of the boom is the most straightforward solution unless:
1) You’ve added a reefing system on the boom – which means that cutting the boom from the gooseneck will change the geometry of your boom hardware with respect to the clew reef cringles.
2) Your boom is 2.5” too long - in which case 1.5” isn’t enough.
After re-examining everything. It looks like I can cut 2.5” off my boom’s end and still be able to properly reposition the outhaul block with enough room for that 1/2” “old age” allowance that Jerry’s feet recommend.
This really isn’t all that complicated. just want to noodle everything out before I start chopping up a brand new boom.
Jim
On Oct 10, 2008, at 7:39 PM, Bob From California wrote:
Hi Joe....
That's the ticket. Never raise the main to the very top. I usually raise it to the top and lower it so the boom is about 19 inches up from the mast base. Tie in the boom downhaul and raise the sail-stop just underneath the boom.
There is some room to shorten the boom on the boats with a loose footed main. (all the boats I build)
Simply remove the gooseneck, cut 1.5 inches off, square and clean, press the gooseneck back into the boom and drill a #25 hole, follow with a 10-24 tap, install the stainless machine screw. (do it in two places off set from the old holes in the gooseneck. which you can't see anyway) Should take 15 minutes.
Joe, I posted a few photos of your Idasailor Rudder on the Montgomery Trailersailor site. How is that rudder working for you?....any complaints?
The reason I ask is WILLI on Strawanza is wanting one for the next leg of his solo world trip.
His M_17 is on the hard while waiting for Typhoon Season in the Indian Ocean to pass. He said a couple of times the fixed rudder would get stressed out in horrible storm conditions while lying ahull. The boat would be sliding down the backside of a 40 foot wall and the rudder would DIG sideways....he wants to be able to LIFT the rudder totally CLEAR of the water in these conditions and we are probably going to beef up a new Idasailor rudder for him (more stainless gussets) and AIRBORNE it to Vanuatu.
Fair winds
Bob
From: seagray@embarqmail.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 22:05:41 -0400> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 17 boom length> > Jim,> Just out of curiosity, what is the lenth of the luff on your mainsail? Do > you raise the main to the very top? I ask because my boom does not hit the > backstay until it is raised to a height equal to the split of the backstay. > However, having said that, if I raise my main all the way then I find the > upper edge of my leech will hit the backstay due to the cut of the roach. > If I get enough power in the tack or jibe it's not a problem, but it has > hung up on occassion.> Joe> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Poulakis" <picfo@comcast.net>> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" > <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 8:16 PM> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 17 boom length> > > > Thanks Arnold,> >> > From boom end to center of gooseneck slide of Spirit's boom is 8'> > 2.5". If I lop 2.5" off the end of the boom it will just clear the> > backstay at all angles. Anything more then this will put me into> > mainsail modification territory and I do NOT want to go there.> >> > Jim>
On Oct 10, 2008, at 3:35 PM, Arnold Sharpe wrote:> >> >> Jim, I measured the length of the boom on my M-17, It measures> >> 7ft-11" from end to centerline of the tack pin and 8ft-01/4" to the> >> center of the gooseneck slide.> >> Regards..Arnold Sharpe M-17 "LITTLE BREEZE" hull # 265.> >> On Oct 10, 2008, at 2:38 PM, James Poulakis wrote:> >>> >>> Thanks Jerry. Your input is invaluable and very much appreciated.> >>>> >>> "Spirit" is M17 #648 built in 2008 with Dwyer mast & boom extrusions.> >>> A careful measurement reveals her boom w/ end fittings to be 8'-3/4"> >>> long (aluminum extrusion without any fittings is 8'-1/4")> >>>> >>> Jim Poulakis> >>> "Spirit"> >>>> >>> On Oct 9, 2008, at 1:49 PM, jerry wrote:> >>>> >>>> just measured an old M17 boom standing in the corner of the shop-> >>>> it's 7'9" long.> >>>>>> jerry> >>>> _______________________________________________> >>>> http:// mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/> >>>> montgomery_boats> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________> >>> http:// mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats> >>>>> _______________________________________________> >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats> >> >> > _______________________________________________> > http:// mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > _______________________________________________> http:// mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
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Jim, You're probably right on target. It's not that big a deal. It only gets hung up if I'm too slow rounding through. It might be something I can overcome with enought practive. After all, I've only had Seafrog in the water for a month now. Fair Winds, Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Poulakis" <picfo@comcast.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 11:06 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: 17 boom length Joe: Spirit's main has a generous roach with four battens but I have never had the roach hang up on the backstay like you and others have. Cutting down the boom from either end isn't going to keep the roach from snagging. I just have a hunch that when the longer booms started being used, the foot length on the mainsail was increased as well - thus setting the roach into the backstay. Just a theory... Jim On Oct 11, 2008, at 6:36 PM, Joe Murphy wrote:
I have an Elliot Pattison as well. I don't have the precise measurements but what you have sounds on track. Does your sail have a roach? Mine has 4 half battens with a fair roach. And that's the part that catchs on the backstay. I will follow your (and Bob's) advice on setting the gooseneck at 19" high and see if the boom clears the backstay. I just finished installing blocks and cleats for reefing so I'm hoping I don't have to lop off any of the boom. Will check this out Monday. In the meantime, thanks to both you and Bob for the advice. Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Poulakis" <picfo@comcast.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 4:35 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: 17 boom length
Joe & Bob;
Spirit’s stock Elliott Pattison mainsail: Luff 18’11”, Leech 20’1”, Foot 7’6.5” (measured from the center of the head, tack, and clew cringles).
Joe: Tune your rig with the mast raked aft and set your boom gooseneck height to 19” per Bob’s instructions. Then tie off the downhaul and use a slide stop under the gooseneck as Bob recommends. Now - lift the end of the boom so it angles up above the backstay split. If the boom can’t swing without hitting the backstay then your boom is simply too long. If your boom is like mine it is probably about 2.5” too long.
We now have a number of examples of older booms being 2.5” to 3.5” shorter then the newer booms. We also have newer M17 owners reporting that their leech hangs up on the backstay, or that their boom end hits when it gets near the backstay split. Coincidence?
Bob: Your solution of cutting 1.5” from the gooseneck end of the boom is the most straightforward solution unless:
1) You’ve added a reefing system on the boom – which means that cutting the boom from the gooseneck will change the geometry of your boom hardware with respect to the clew reef cringles.
2) Your boom is 2.5” too long - in which case 1.5” isn’t enough.
After re-examining everything. It looks like I can cut 2.5” off my boom’s end and still be able to properly reposition the outhaul block with enough room for that 1/2” “old age” allowance that Jerry’s feet recommend.
This really isnÂ’t all that complicated. just want to noodle everything out before I start chopping up a brand new boom.
Jim
On Oct 10, 2008, at 7:39 PM, Bob From California wrote:
Hi Joe....
That's the ticket. Never raise the main to the very top. I usually raise it to the top and lower it so the boom is about 19 inches up from the mast base. Tie in the boom downhaul and raise the sail-stop just underneath the boom.
There is some room to shorten the boom on the boats with a loose footed main. (all the boats I build)
Simply remove the gooseneck, cut 1.5 inches off, square and clean, press the gooseneck back into the boom and drill a #25 hole, follow with a 10-24 tap, install the stainless machine screw. (do it in two places off set from the old holes in the gooseneck. which you can't see anyway) Should take 15 minutes.
Joe, I posted a few photos of your Idasailor Rudder on the Montgomery Trailersailor site. How is that rudder working for you?....any complaints?
The reason I ask is WILLI on Strawanza is wanting one for the next leg of his solo world trip.
His M_17 is on the hard while waiting for Typhoon Season in the Indian Ocean to pass. He said a couple of times the fixed rudder would get stressed out in horrible storm conditions while lying ahull. The boat would be sliding down the backside of a 40 foot wall and the rudder would DIG sideways....he wants to be able to LIFT the rudder totally CLEAR of the water in these conditions and we are probably going to beef up a new Idasailor rudder for him (more stainless gussets) and AIRBORNE it to Vanuatu.
Fair winds
Bob
From: seagray@embarqmail.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 22:05:41 -0400> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 17 boom length> > Jim,> Just out of curiosity, what is the lenth of the luff on your mainsail? Do > you raise the main to the very top? I ask because my boom does not hit the > backstay until it is raised to a height equal to the split of the backstay. > However, having said that, if I raise my main all the way then I find the > upper edge of my leech will hit the backstay due to the cut of the roach. > If I get enough power in the tack or jibe it's not a problem, but it has > hung up on occassion.> Joe> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Poulakis" <picfo@comcast.net>> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" > <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 8:16 PM> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 17 boom length> > > > Thanks Arnold,> >> > From boom end to center of gooseneck slide of Spirit's boom is 8'> > 2.5". If I lop 2.5" off the end of the boom it will just clear the> > backstay at all angles. Anything more then this will put me into> > mainsail modification territory and I do NOT want to go there.> >> > Jim>
On Oct 10, 2008, at 3:35 PM, Arnold Sharpe wrote:> >> >> Jim, I measured the length of the boom on my M-17, It measures> >> 7ft-11" from end to centerline of the tack pin and 8ft-01/4" to the> >> center of the gooseneck slide.> >> Regards..Arnold Sharpe M-17 "LITTLE BREEZE" hull # 265.> >> On Oct 10, 2008, at 2:38 PM, James Poulakis wrote:> >>> >>> Thanks Jerry. Your input is invaluable and very much appreciated.> >>>> >>> "Spirit" is M17 #648 built in 2008 with Dwyer mast & boom extrusions.> >>> A careful measurement reveals her boom w/ end fittings to be 8'-3/4"> >>> long (aluminum extrusion without any fittings is 8'-1/4")> >>>> >>> Jim Poulakis> >>> "Spirit"> >>>> >>> On Oct 9, 2008, at 1:49 PM, jerry wrote:> >>>> >>>> just measured an old M17 boom standing in the corner of the shop-> >>>> it's 7'9" long.> >>>>>> jerry> >>>> _______________________________________________> >>>> http:// mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/> >>>> montgomery_boats> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________> >>> http:// mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats> >>>>> _______________________________________________> >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ montgomery_boats> >> >> > _______________________________________________> > http:// mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > _______________________________________________> http:// mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
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Hi Bob, I have no real complaints on the Idasailor Rudder. Of course, I haven't been sliding down the backside of any 40' walls either...... thank God! One thing. It would seem that when the line is pulled (when the rudder is fully extended into the water) that the rudder should raise up 180 degrees. When I pull the line to raise the rudder, it only raises it to a 90 degree angle. I've been meaning to drop a line to Idasailor and ask if I have it set up properly. I haven't made any adjustments so it's the same setup as when it was shipped. Any ideas?? Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob From California" <ocean37@hotmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 10:39 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: 17 boom length
Hi Joe....
That's the ticket. Never raise the main to the very top. I usually raise it to the top and lower it so the boom is about 19 inches up from the mast base. Tie in the boom downhaul and raise the sail-stop just underneath the boom.
There is some room to shorten the boom on the boats with a loose footed main. (all the boats I build)
Simply remove the gooseneck, cut 1.5 inches off, square and clean, press the gooseneck back into the boom and drill a #25 hole, follow with a 10-24 tap, install the stainless machine screw. (do it in two places off set from the old holes in the gooseneck. which you can't see anyway) Should take 15 minutes.
Joe, I posted a few photos of your Idasailor Rudder on the Montgomery Trailersailor site. How is that rudder working for you?....any complaints?
The reason I ask is WILLI on Strawanza is wanting one for the next leg of his solo world trip.
His M_17 is on the hard while waiting for Typhoon Season in the Indian Ocean to pass. He said a couple of times the fixed rudder would get stressed out in horrible storm conditions while lying ahull. The boat would be sliding down the backside of a 40 foot wall and the rudder would DIG sideways....he wants to be able to LIFT the rudder totally CLEAR of the water in these conditions and we are probably going to beef up a new Idasailor rudder for him (more stainless gussets) and AIRBORNE it to Vanuatu.
Fair winds
Bob
From: seagray@embarqmail.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 22:05:41 -0400> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 17 boom length> > Jim,> Just out of curiosity, what is the lenth of the luff on your mainsail? Do > you raise the main to the very top? I ask because my boom does not hit the > backstay until it is raised to a height equal to the split of the backstay. > However, having said that, if I raise my main all the way then I find the > upper edge of my leech will hit the backstay due to the cut of the roach. > If I get enough power in the tack or jibe it's not a problem, but it has > hung up on occassion.> Joe> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Poulakis" <picfo@comcast.net>> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" > <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 8:16 PM> Subject: Re: M_Boats: 17 boom length> > > > Thanks Arnold,> >> > From boom end to center of gooseneck slide of Spirit's boom is 8'> > 2.5". If I lop 2.5" off the end of the boom it will just clear the> > backstay at all angles. Anything more then this will put me into> > mainsail modification territory and I do NOT want to go there.> >> > Jim>
On Oct 10, 2008, at 3:35 PM, Arnold Sharpe wrote:> >> >> Jim, I measured the length of the boom on my M-17, It measures> >> 7ft-11" from end to centerline of the tack pin and 8ft-01/4" to the> >> center of the gooseneck slide.> >> Regards..Arnold Sharpe M-17 "LITTLE BREEZE" hull # 265.> >> On Oct 10, 2008, at 2:38 PM, James Poulakis wrote:> >>> >>> Thanks Jerry. Your input is invaluable and very much appreciated.> >>>> "Spirit" is M17 #648 built in 2008 with Dwyer mast & boom extrusions.> >>> A careful measurement reveals her boom w/ end fittings to be 8'-3/4"> >>> long (aluminum extrusion without any fittings is 8'-1/4")> >>>> >>> Jim Poulakis> >>> "Spirit"> >>>> >>> On Oct 9, 2008, at 1:49 PM, jerry wrote:> >>>> >>>> just measured an old M17 boom standing in the corner of the shop-> >>>> it's 7'9" long.> >>>>> >>>> jerry> >>>> _______________________________________________> >>>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/> >>>> montgomery_boats> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________> >>> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats>
>> >> _______________________________________________> >> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats> >> _______________________________________________> > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats > > _______________________________________________> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
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I really don't know if Bob Eeg has made any changes in the geometry of the rig, but all you need on the boom is enough room to stretch the foot of the sail out, plus about a half inch to allow for old age (kind of like my feet). jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Poulakis" <picfo@comcast.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 2:38 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: 17 boom length
Thanks Jerry. Your input is invaluable and very much appreciated.
"Spirit" is M17 #648 built in 2008 with Dwyer mast & boom extrusions. A careful measurement reveals her boom w/ end fittings to be 8'-3/4" long (aluminum extrusion without any fittings is 8'-1/4")
Jim Poulakis "Spirit"
On Oct 9, 2008, at 1:49 PM, jerry wrote:
just measured an old M17 boom standing in the corner of the shop- it's 7'9" long.
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participants (6)
-
Arnold Sharpe -
Bob From California -
Howard Audsley -
James Poulakis -
jerry -
Joe Murphy