Re: M17 heavy weather capabilities
Reference Ed's and Gary's notes on M17s in the 1/3/08 postings, I had some fine sailing away back when. Here is my personal experience that I posted last August, and it is from my journal, not from my fading and likely boasting memory. My first M15 "Joy" #264 was, like Jerry's, well-ballasted. She had two 27 group deep cycle batteries in the bilge to power the Minn-Kota trolling motor that I mounted through the bilge, just aft of the keel. In mid-November of 1989--I was a very young 60 way back then--I trailed to Stockton Lake in Southwest Missouri, a Corps of Engineers impoundment noted for very low surrounding hills and plenty of wind. My wind speed and boat speed were as read from the Dwyer hand-held wind meter, and a hand- held Knotstick. Not electronic and high tech, but neither were the patent logs of the old Master Mariners. With a reefed main and full jib, I sailed out of my anchorage, and "Dwyer said winds were rarely below 20 miles per hour, usually 20 to 30 plus, with gusts to over 40! Knotstick reads 5 1/4 knots at times when on a close to beam reach." "Joy's changed heavy weather capability, with the second battery in the bilge, is remarkable. Now I'd say she is good for fifteen to twenty miles per hour, unreefed, thirty to thirty five with both main and jib reefed." Now that I am a hundred years older, my "Rejoyce!" M15 #361 may never see such fine sailing, but she loves to sail. And yes, experience helps, too, as well as a lot of ballast. I have been sailing for over 65 years, first with my "Snipe," and then a procession of sailboats from a Sun Fish, 13' canoe with a sail designed for an 18 footer, Philippine dugout canoe ("Banca"), Pearson Triton, so many others, and aboard a 103' three stick schooner in winds over 70 knots bucking a strong current, with waves over 50', in Australia's Tasman Sea, complete with a couple knock downs and a pooping while I was at the helm. Much fun! Yes, our wonderful little M15 can take a lot, if you are prepared, properly rigged, and have some previous experience in heavy weather. "Grace is receiving what we do not deserve, Mercy is not receiving what we do deserve."
Much thanks, John. This is just the kind of hard info a new guy like me needs. This isn't just something out of a brochure. I take the implication what's good for the 15 is all the more so for the 17. The only other thing I wonder is what tears loose first. Does the boat have a weak point? The stop pin, the rudder hardware, the rudder blade? Do any of you work the foredeck from the fore hatch. That alone wd justify having a small cruiser in extreme conditions. Has anybody taken an offshore capsize or complete rollover? Will the bow bury in a short chop? ED> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> From: theoldcat@cox.net> Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 15:42:45 -0600> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M17 heavy weather capabilities> > Reference Ed's and Gary's notes on M17s in the 1/3/08 postings, I had > some fine sailing away back when.> Here is my personal experience that I posted last August, and it is > from my journal, not from> my fading and likely boasting memory. My first M15 "Joy" #264 was,> like Jerry's, well-ballasted. She had two 27 group deep cycle> batteries in the bilge to power the Minn-Kota trolling motor that I> mounted through the bilge, just aft of the keel. In mid-November of> 1989--I was a very young 60 way back then--I trailed to Stockton Lake> in Southwest Missouri, a Corps of Engineers impoundment noted for> very low surrounding hills and plenty of wind. My wind speed and boat> speed were as read from the Dwyer hand-held wind meter, and a hand-> held Knotstick. Not electronic and high tech, but neither were the> patent logs of the old Master Mariners. With a reefed main and full> jib, I sailed out of my anchorage, and "Dwyer said winds were rarely> below 20 miles per hour, usually 20 to 30 plus, with gusts to over> 40! Knotstick reads 5 1/4 knots at times when on a close to beam> reach." "Joy's changed heavy weather capability, with the second> battery in the bilge, is remarkable. Now I'd say she is good for> fifteen to twenty miles per hour, unreefed, thirty to thirty five > with both main and jib> reefed." Now that I am a hundred years older, my "Rejoyce!" M15 #361> may never see such fine sailing, but she loves to sail. And yes,> experience helps, too, as well as a lot of ballast. I have been> sailing for over 65 years, first with my "Snipe," and then a > procession of> sailboats from a Sun Fish, 13' canoe with a sail designed for an 18> footer, Philippine dugout canoe ("Banca"), Pearson Triton, so many> others, and aboard a 103' three stick schooner in winds over 70 knots> bucking a strong current, with waves over 50', in Australia's Tasman> Sea, complete with a couple knock downs and a pooping while I was at> the helm. Much fun! Yes, our wonderful little M15 can take a lot, if> you are prepared, properly rigged, and have some previous experience> in heavy weather.> "Grace is receiving what we do not deserve,> Mercy is not receiving what we do deserve."> > > > > _______________________________________________> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats _________________________________________________________________ The best games are on Xbox 360. Click here for a special offer on an Xbox 360 Console. http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/wheretobuy/
Hi Edward, I am fortunate to see many of the improvements and modifications being made to the craft in our group. As a result, when I read your post about things tearing loose the boat that immediately came to mind is a new one, called Strawanza. She is the ultimate in simplicity; no aux motor, no electrical to short out, wind vane steering, etc. all created to go from San Diego to South Africa. I have never heard of a story where a Montgomery was rolled, however If I were planning a circumnavigation in an M-Boat, I'd prepare for a roll. A small craft in big water is going to eventually experience one. Preparation would be the key. Backing up all fittings with large and sturdy plates comes to mind as does making sure you wont get water in the cabin. When you look at Strawanza, read what Boat Builder Bob Eeg did to create and prepare this blue water M17. The question is: Do you need a boat like Strawanza? She is beautiful, strong, sturdy, bulletproof, and more. But most of us would never have the time to do what Strawanza's owner is doing. Some of us have sailed San Francisco Bay, where they say " if you can sail the Bay, you can sail anywhere" I cannot say if that is totally true, but I will say the M17 is a treat in the Bay. It is short enough to show no hobbyhorse in the close choppy swells, with no burying the bow and plenty strong for the winds encountered, which I might add are strong! Better yet, people like Robert Becker sail their M15 on a routine basis on SF Bay with complete confidence. Many have commented, the weak point of the Montgomery Boats is not the boat but the skipper. What those writers are referring to is the boat will handle more for longer periods than the Skipper's endurance will sustain and M-Boat owners agree. So, the only question now is what options do you want on your new boat :-) P.s. I am not a representative of Montgomery Boats. However, if Bob ever wanted a salesman, I'd apply. I do love the product. No Compromises and never has been... beginning with the original builder Jerry Montgomery and still the same today. Not many products have kept the faith in this greedy world. Bill Visit Strawanza's page on the Photo Site http://www.msogphotosite.com/m17strawanza.html Main Page: www.MSOGPhotoSite.com <http://www.msogphotosite.com/> On Jan 3, 2008 9:55 PM, edward haile <ewhaile@hotmail.com> wrote:
Much thanks, John. This is just the kind of hard info a new guy like me needs. This isn't just something out of a brochure. I take the implication what's good for the 15 is all the more so for the 17. The only other thing I wonder is what tears loose first. Does the boat have a weak point? The stop pin, the rudder hardware, the rudder blade? Do any of you work the foredeck from the fore hatch. That alone wd justify having a small cruiser in extreme conditions. Has anybody taken an offshore capsize or complete rollover? Will the bow bury in a short chop? ED> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> From: theoldcat@cox.net> Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 15:42:45 -0600> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M17 heavy weather capabilities> > Reference Ed's and Gary's notes on M17s in the 1/3/08 postings, I had > some fine sailing away back when.> Here is my personal experience that I posted last August, and it is > from my journal, not from> my fading and likely boasting memory. My first M15 "Joy" #264 was,> like Jerry's, well-ballasted. She had two 27 group deep cycle> batteries in the bilge to power the Minn-Kota trolling motor that I> mounted through the bilge, just aft of the keel. In mid-November of> 1989--I was a very young 60 way back then--I trailed to Stockton Lake> in Southwest Missouri, a Corps of Engineers impoundment noted for> very low surrounding hills and plenty of wind. My wind speed and boat> speed were as read from the Dwyer hand-held wind meter, and a hand-> held Knotstick. Not electronic and high tech, but neither were the> patent logs of the old Master Mariners. With a reefed main and full> jib, I sailed out of my anchorage, and "Dwyer said winds were rarely> below 20 miles per hour, usually 20 to 30 plus, with gusts to over> 40! Knotstick reads 5 1/4 knots at times when on a close to beam> reach." "Joy's changed heavy weather capability, with the second> battery in the bilge, is remarkable. Now I'd say she is good for> fifteen to twenty miles per hour, unreefed, thirty to thirty five > with both main and jib> reefed." Now that I am a hundred years older, my "Rejoyce!" M15 #361> may never see such fine sailing, but she loves to sail. And yes,> experience helps, too, as well as a lot of ballast. I have been> sailing for over 65 years, first with my "Snipe," and then a > procession of> sailboats from a Sun Fish, 13' canoe with a sail designed for an 18> footer, Philippine dugout canoe ("Banca"), Pearson Triton, so many> others, and aboard a 103' three stick schooner in winds over 70 knots> bucking a strong current, with waves over 50', in Australia's Tasman> Sea, complete with a couple knock downs and a pooping while I was at> the helm. Much fun! Yes, our wonderful little M15 can take a lot, if> you are prepared, properly rigged, and have some previous experience> in heavy weather.> "Grace is receiving what we do not deserve,> Mercy is not receiving what we do deserve."> > > > > _______________________________________________> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats _________________________________________________________________ The best games are on Xbox 360. Click here for a special offer on an Xbox 360 Console.
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/wheretobuy/______________________________... http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Nice going Bill. This is a terrific letter. I am beginning to get the picture. Where's the boat been all my life? The great and high Dick Newick once said you can have cost, performance, and comfort, but only two at a time. He was wrong. ED> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 07:48:51 -0800> From: billamicasr@gmail.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re: M17 heavy weather capabilities> > Hi Edward,> > I am fortunate to see many of the improvements and modifications being made> to the craft in our group. As a result, when I read your post about things> tearing loose the boat that immediately came to mind is a new one, called> Strawanza. She is the ultimate in simplicity; no aux motor, no electrical to> short out, wind vane steering, etc. all created to go from San Diego to> South Africa.> > I have never heard of a story where a Montgomery was rolled, however If I> were planning a circumnavigation in an M-Boat, I'd prepare for a roll. A> small craft in big water is going to eventually experience one.> > Preparation would be the key. Backing up all fittings with large and sturdy> plates comes to mind as does making sure you wont get water in the cabin.> When you look at Strawanza, read what Boat Builder Bob Eeg did to create and> prepare this blue water M17.> > The question is: Do you need a boat like Strawanza? She is beautiful,> strong, sturdy, bulletproof, and more. But most of us would never have the> time to do what Strawanza's owner is doing. Some of us have sailed San> Francisco Bay, where they say " if you can sail the Bay, you can sail> anywhere" I cannot say if that is totally true, but I will say the M17 is a> treat in the Bay. It is short enough to show no hobbyhorse in the close> choppy swells, with no burying the bow and plenty strong for the winds> encountered, which I might add are strong! Better yet, people like Robert> Becker sail their M15 on a routine basis on SF Bay with complete confidence.> > Many have commented, the weak point of the Montgomery Boats is not the boat> but the skipper. What those writers are referring to is the boat will handle> more for longer periods than the Skipper's endurance will sustain and M-Boat> owners agree.> > So, the only question now is what options do you want on your new boat :-)> > P.s. I am not a representative of Montgomery Boats. However, if Bob ever> wanted a salesman, I'd apply. I do love the product. No Compromises and> never has been... beginning with the original builder Jerry Montgomery and> still the same today. Not many products have kept the faith in this greedy> world.> > Bill> Visit Strawanza's page on the Photo Site> http://www.msogphotosite.com/m17strawanza.html> > Main Page: www.MSOGPhotoSite.com <http://www.msogphotosite.com/>> > > > > > > > On Jan 3, 2008 9:55 PM, edward haile <ewhaile@hotmail.com> wrote:> > >> > Much thanks, John. This is just the kind of hard info a new guy like me> > needs. This isn't just something out of a brochure. I take the implication> > what's good for the 15 is all the more so for the 17. The only other thing I> > wonder is what tears loose first. Does the boat have a weak point? The stop> > pin, the rudder hardware, the rudder blade? Do any of you work the foredeck> > from the fore hatch. That alone wd justify having a small cruiser in extreme> > conditions. Has anybody taken an offshore capsize or complete rollover? Will> > the bow bury in a short chop? ED> To:> > montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> From: theoldcat@cox.net> Date: Thu,> > 3 Jan 2008 15:42:45 -0600> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M17 heavy weather> > capabilities> > Reference Ed's and Gary's notes on M17s in the 1/3/08> > postings, I had > some fine sailing away back when.> Here is my personal> > experience that I posted last August, and it is > from my journal, not from>> > my fading and likely boasting memory. My first M15 "Joy" #264 was,> like> > Jerry's, well-ballasted. She had two 27 group deep cycle> batteries in the> > bilge to power the Minn-Kota trolling motor that I> mounted through the> > bilge, just aft of the keel. In mid-November of> 1989--I was a very young 60> > way back then--I trailed to Stockton Lake> in Southwest Missouri, a Corps of> > Engineers impoundment noted for> very low surrounding hills and plenty of> > wind. My wind speed and boat> speed were as read from the Dwyer hand-held> > wind meter, and a hand-> held Knotstick. Not electronic and high tech, but> > neither were the> patent logs of the old Master Mariners. With a reefed main> > and full> jib, I sailed out of my anchorage, and "Dwyer said winds were> > rarely> below 20 miles per hour, usually 20 to 30 plus, with gusts to over>> > 40! Knotstick reads 5 1/4 knots at times when on a close to beam> reach."> > "Joy's changed heavy weather capability, with the second> battery in the> > bilge, is remarkable. Now I'd say she is good for> fifteen to twenty miles> > per hour, unreefed, thirty to thirty five > with both main and jib> reefed."> > Now that I am a hundred years older, my "Rejoyce!" M15 #361> may never see> > such fine sailing, but she loves to sail. And yes,> experience helps, too,> > as well as a lot of ballast. I have been> sailing for over 65 years, first> > with my "Snipe," and then a > procession of> sailboats from a Sun Fish, 13'> > canoe with a sail designed for an 18> footer, Philippine dugout canoe> > ("Banca"), Pearson Triton, so many> others, and aboard a 103' three stick> > schooner in winds over 70 knots> bucking a strong current, with waves over> > 50', in Australia's Tasman> Sea, complete with a couple knock downs and a> > pooping while I was at> the helm. Much fun! Yes, our wonderful little M15> > can take a lot, if> you are prepared, properly rigged, and have some> > previous experience> in heavy weather.> "Grace is receiving what we do not> > deserve,> Mercy is not receiving what we do deserve."> > > > >> > _______________________________________________>> > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats> > _________________________________________________________________> > The best games are on Xbox 360. Click here for a special offer on an Xbox> > 360 Console.> >> > http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/wheretobuy/_______________________________________________> > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats> >> _______________________________________________> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats _________________________________________________________________ Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_012008
Hi Edward, Thanks for the kudos on the E-mail. Hey Bob, let me know when that sales position comes up! Dick was right in a sense... It depends on what he was referring to as comfort. If he is speaking of creature comfort, these are smallish, compared to some of the luxury boats available. But then again, cost gets in the way when you go big. So, you are right after all. You should find one to look over and sail before you buy. However, probably half the group bought their Monty sight unseen, without sea trial and have not been disappointed... I did that one time, I bought a Potter 15 and was happy when someone took her ("Feather") off my hands. I recommend a test sail. Lots of the group would say don't bother and be correct. They knew what they wanted and went for it! Smart and talented bunch of folks in the group. Bill On Jan 4, 2008 9:37 AM, edward haile <ewhaile@hotmail.com> wrote:
Nice going Bill. This is a terrific letter. I am beginning to get the picture. Where's the boat been all my life? The great and high Dick Newick once said you can have cost, performance, and comfort, but only two at a time. He was wrong. ED> Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 07:48:51 -0800> From: billamicasr@gmail.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Re: M17 heavy weather capabilities> > Hi Edward,> > I am fortunate to see many of the improvements and modifications being made> to the craft in our group. As a result, when I read your post about things> tearing loose the boat that immediately came to mind is a new one, called> Strawanza. She is the ultimate in simplicity; no aux motor, no electrical to> short out, wind vane steering, etc. all created to go from San Diego to> South Africa.> > I have never heard of a story where a Montgomery was rolled, however If I> were planning a circumnavigation in an M-Boat, I'd prepare for a roll. A> small craft in big water is going to eventually experience one.> > Preparation would be the key. Backing up all fittings with large and sturdy> plates comes to mind as does making sure you wont get water in the cabin.> When you look at Strawanza, read what Boat Builder Bob Eeg did to create and> prepare this blue water M17.> > The question is: Do you need a boat like Strawanza? She is beautiful,> strong, sturdy, bulletproof, and more. But most of us would never have the> time to do what Strawanza's owner is doing. Some of us have sailed San> Francisco Bay, where they say " if you can sail the Bay, you can sail> anywhere" I cannot say if that is totally true, but I will say the M17 is a> treat in the Bay. It is short enough to show no hobbyhorse in the close> choppy swells, with no burying the bow and plenty strong for the winds> encountered, which I might add are strong! Better yet, people like Robert> Becker sail their M15 on a routine basis on SF Bay with complete confidence.> > Many have commented, the weak point of the Montgomery Boats is not the boat> but the skipper. What those writers are referring to is the boat will handle> more for longer periods than the Skipper's endurance will sustain and M-Boat> owners agree.>
So, the only question now is what options do you want on your new boat :-)> > P.s. I am not a representative of Montgomery Boats. However, if Bob ever> wanted a salesman, I'd apply. I do love the product. No Compromises and> never has been... beginning with the original builder Jerry Montgomery and> still the same today. Not many products have kept the faith in this greedy> world.> > Bill> Visit Strawanza's page on the Photo Site> http://www.msogphotosite.com/m17strawanza.html> > Main Page: www.MSOGPhotoSite.com <http://www.msogphotosite.com/> < http://www.msogphotosite.com/>> > > > > > > > On Jan 3, 2008 9:55 PM, edward haile <ewhaile@hotmail.com> wrote:> > >> > Much thanks, John. This is just the kind of hard info a new guy like me> > needs. This isn't just something out of a brochure. I take the implication> > what's good for the 15 is all the more so for the 17. The only other thing I> > wonder is what tears loose first. Does the boat have a weak point? The stop> > pin, the rudder hardware, the rudder blade? Do any of you work the foredeck> > from the fore hatch. That alone wd justify having a small cruiser in extreme> > conditions. Has anybody taken an offshore capsize or complete rollover? Will> > the bow bury in a short chop? ED> To:> > montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> From: theoldcat@cox.net> Date: Thu,> > 3 Jan 2008 15:42:45 -0600> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M17 heavy weather> capabilities> > Reference Ed's and Gary's notes on M17s in the 1/3/08> > postings, I had > some fine sailing away back when.> Here is my personal> > experience that I posted last August, and it is > from my journal, not from>> > my fading and likely boasting memory. My first M15 "Joy" #264 was,> like> > Jerry's, well-ballasted. She had two 27 group deep cycle> batteries in the> > bilge to power the Minn-Kota trolling motor that I> mounted through the> > bilge, just aft of the keel. In mid-November of> 1989--I was a very young 60> > way back then--I trailed to Stockton Lake> in Southwest Missouri, a Corps of> > Engineers impoundment noted for> very low surrounding hills and plenty of> > wind. My wind speed and boat> speed were as read from the Dwyer hand-held> > wind meter, and a hand-> held Knotstick. Not electronic and high tech, but> > neither were the> patent logs of the old Master Mariners. With a reefed main> > and full> jib, I sailed out of my anchorage, and "Dwyer said winds were> > rarely> below 20 miles per hour, usually 20 to 30 plus, with gusts to over>> > 40! Knotstick reads 5 1/4 knots at times when on a close to beam> reach."> > "Joy's changed heavy weather capability, with the second> battery in the> > bilge, is remarkable. Now I'd say she is good for> fifteen to twenty miles> > per hour, unreefed, thirty to thirty five > with both main and jib> reefed."> > Now that I am a hundred years older, my "Rejoyce!" M15 #361> may never see> > such fine sailing, but she loves to sail. And yes,> experience helps, too,> > as well as a lot of ballast. I have been> sailing for over 65 years, first> > with my "Snipe," and then a > procession of> sailboats from a Sun Fish, 13'> > canoe with a sail designed for an 18> footer, Philippine dugout canoe> > ("Banca"), Pearson Triton, so many> others, and aboard a 103' three stick> > schooner in winds over 70 knots> bucking a strong current, with waves over> 50', in Australia's Tasman> Sea, complete with a couple knock downs and a> pooping while I was at> the helm. Much fun! Yes, our wonderful little M15> can take a lot, if> you are prepared, properly rigged, and have some> > previous experience> in heavy weather.> "Grace is receiving what we do not> deserve,> Mercy is not receiving what we do deserve."> > > > >> > _______________________________________________>> > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats> > _________________________________________________________________> > The best games are on Xbox 360. Click here for a special offer on an Xbox> > 360 Console.> >> > http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/wheretobuy/_______________________________________________> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats>
_______________________________________________> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live.
http://www.windowslive.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_012008_______________________________________________<http://www.windowslive.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_012008_______________________________________________> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
participants (3)
-
Bill Lamica -
edward haile -
John R. Butler