Re: M_Boats: montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 183, Issue 17
On the tabrnackle debate and simplifying mast raising, I agree with Jerry, the simpler the better. Since installing a Rudder Craft Rudder with mast raising device I no longer have to ship and unship my rudder when launching and retrieving, or find a place to stow the rudder for trailering. Seems trivial but saves loads of time. The mast raising support remains installed and available for use anytime. I frequently lower and raise the mast at the slip or dockside where I feel the process is safer than on the trailer, where a fall would be from a greater height, and onto the hard. I also can exit the parking lot within 20 minutes, making that space available for others. My mast raising tackle is a salvaged mainsheet, attached to the bow and , use the jib halyard. Mast raising device in the extended position, I simply push the mast up. Not at all difficult. After a certain angle is attained leverage takes over. After lowering I secure the tackle to the toe rail so it is in place for the next raising, saving another step. Every step you eliminate when launching and retrieving saves time and lets you get on with the real business; that of sailing these fine boats. Jon Barber Montgomery 17 Ol'44 On Wed, May 23, 2018, 11:01 AM < montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Send montgomery_boats mailing list submissions to montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
https://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com
You can reach the person managing the list at montgomery_boats-owner@mailman.xmission.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Question on port cockpit locker lid/seat, early M17 (jerry@jerrymontgomery.org) 2. Re: Rigging for my boat (Gary Froeschner) 3. Re: Rigging for my boat (Thomas Buzzi) 4. Re: Question on port cockpit locker lid/seat, early M17 (swwheatley@comcast.net) 5. Re: Rigging for my boat (Dan Farrell) 6. Re: Rigging for my boat (Erik Stavrand) 7. Re: CB stop pin (John Schinnerer)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 13:48:52 -0700 From: <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Question on port cockpit locker lid/seat, early M17 Message-ID: <92995E9DB42B44FABD7A3D394AB01083@CH002914> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response
The first few 17's had a core of foam, but when balsa core became readily available we switched to that. Balsa is far better for a deck. At this point grind or peel the aftermarket core out and replace it with either balsa or plywood, using epoxy resin. If the flat of the hatch cover is distorted I'd use plywood, bonding it in and putting some weight on the plywood until the epoxy cures, then covering the ply with a layer of cloth, again with epoxy.
-----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 11:43 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Question on port cockpit locker lid/seat, early M17
My M17 is #38, 1974. Has the small starboard locker/seat, and the longer port one.
I am wondering if anyone can tell me what is on the underside of their port locker lid/seat, for a similar vintage boat, to brace/support the seat function of the lid.
The small starboard lid/seat has a nice factory foam core with glass over it to stiffen it up.
The port one, on mine, has an obviously DIY very badly done raised foam core and fiberglass attempt to stiffen it up. But it doesn't look like it replaced a failed OEM one, or that an OEM one was cut away (WTF would do that?)...?
What (if anything) was used to support/stiffen the underside of the port seat/lid on early M17's?
The hack job stiffener is coming loose along the edges (resin/glass wasn't bonded well to underside of seat) so I need to remove it and do something else to stiffen up that seat.
I am thinking to just put a couple layers of 6 oz cloth and epoxy (or maybe just one will be enough). Way easier than trying to do a foam core stiffener.
Any reason I should try and do something fancier?
thanks, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 20:34:36 -0600 From: Gary Froeschner <gfroesch@socket.net> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>, Erik Stavrand <stavrand@me.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rigging for my boat Message-ID: <E1fLIjd-0001MG-BS@mx04.mta.xmission.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I am replacing the centerboard stop pin in my M17. It was busted out and long gone. I?ve finished the keel repair and am ready to drill the hole and install the SS pin that acts as a stop for the centerboard. I understand it?s 3/8? dia x about 3? long. Was there anything special about these, or will any 3/8? x the correct length SS bolt work?
I do not intend to counter boar the holes. I don?t want to take away any more meat. It already busted out once, before I owed it. I don?t know if the original one was counter boarded or not. The pivot pin is. Any thoughts?
Thanks. I?m not sure how to post things to the sight in general. I just replied to one of the emails.
Gary Froeschner Columbia, MO M17 ? hall #095
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: jerry@jerrymontgomery.org Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 3:17 PM To: Erik Stavrand; 'For and abmontgomery forum Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rigging for my boat
I don?t know about the gallows. A difference between Dave Scobie and myself is that he likes lots of gadgets and I like simplicity. I have the greatest respect for Dave- he?s a smart guy and is probably a better all-round sailor than I am. I like all the things that make a boat sail better and faster, and aside from that I like things that make it easier to sail but not at the expense of performance. I?m happy with a mast support that fits in the rudder gudgeons, and as soon as the mast goes up the support goes in the back of my truck, along with the tie-down lines. For you, since you need to lower the mast to go under the bridge, maybe it would work to just keep the mast support on the boat and drop the mast on it. obviously you?d need to sister the rudder gudgeons so you wouldn?t need to unship the rudder. To me, the gallows is weight aloft, and windage, both of which are detrimental to performance. When I anchor I?m perfectly happy to either hook the end of the boom to the backstay triangle, or, in the case of the M-15, which I?ve done some cruising in, using the main halyard, then furling the main on the boom and setting up the cockpit awning over the boom. I can see the value of a gallows on a ?real? bluewater boat that will be sitting for days or weeks at anchor, but not a trailerable.
I?m going to take the liberty of putting this thread on the M forum; some of those people will have something to say. M-17 owners- be aware that the Sage has the shrouds swept aft since it?s a 7/8 rig, so the M-23-type (also used on many others) of mast stabilizer won?t work as far as I can see. Doesn?t mean that some smart M-15 user, which has the same characteristic, hasn?t some up with a simple and ingenious way to get the job done. If so, hopefully you?ll hear from him/her. Good luck and I?ll get back to you if I come up with anything.
From: Erik Stavrand Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 1:27 PM To: jerry@jerrymontgomery.org Subject: Re: Rigging for my boat
Hi Jerry,
Thanks for the suggestion - it is elegant. I?ll be interested in your thoughts after the race - good luck.
Also - I?m thinking I?ll need a boom gallows (or a crutch for the boom and mast). As rigged from Sage can the mast come back with the boom attached?
Thanks,
Erik
Erik Stavrand stavrand@me.com
If your dreams don?t scare you they?re not big enough.
On May 21, 2018, at 4:06 PM, jerry@jerrymontgomery.org wrote:
I'd use the jib halyard rather than the forestay. it might work to attach the halyard to the bow pulpit, then run it back to the winch as usual. You'd still need someone (or something) to keep the mast from going off to one side. I have a race this weekend and I'll think about it. I'm soon going to be 78 and am starting to get weak and wobbly so I need to work out something for my boat before I fall off!
-----Original Message----- From: Erik Stavrand Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 5:26 AM To: jerry@jerrymontgomery.org Subject: Rigging for my boat
Hi Jerry,
I have a Sage 17 and am interested in your recommendation for a rapid mast raising system using the tabernacle. The marina near my house has a railway crossing that I?ll need to go under. Do you think the headstay could be led to a turning block and aft to the cockpit?
Thanks in advance for your input!
Erik
Erik Stavrand 941-661-9609
------------------------------
Message: 3 Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 22:03:01 -0500 From: Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rigging for my boat Message-ID: <CA+TbpAUaLXyNB3H6XodYgPGR1=Rw= 8gMj+NPFgQ_va0g+frtLg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Gary, Countersinking the bolt will weaken what is left down there and will not effect your speed at all. What I did when I changed mine out was, bought a piece of 3/8 inch reinforced rubber fuel line from an auto supply. It was as long as the width of your centerboard slot. As I slid the new bolt through the holes I made sure the bolt also ran through the center of that piece of reinforced rubber fuel line. What this does is wraps your pin with rubber. It makes a big difference in cushioning the impact of your centerboard against that pin and helps preserve the fiberglass, etc. there. If you want to enhance the shock absorbing effect get another piece of hose the same length as the 3/8 inch fuel line with an inside diameter that will fit snugly over the 3/8 inch fuel line. Install the pin through both these rubber hoses. You will have to cut a "V" in the outer one to clear the aft edge of the centerboard but if you do that you will add another layer of shock absorbing rubber on the top of the bolt which is where you want it. Make sure the "V" you cut in the outer hose section will easily clear the trailing edge of the centerboard so it will not be spun by the centerboard as you raise or lower it, thus binding your board. I have used only the one hose but now when I lower the board instead of feeling/hearing a solid "thunk!" I don't hear anything at all. Just the soft landing of the board against the pin. Fair winds, Tom Buzzi, Monty 17, "AS-IS". 1977 #258
On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 9:34 PM, Gary Froeschner <gfroesch@socket.net> wrote:
I am replacing the centerboard stop pin in my M17. It was busted out and long gone. I?ve finished the keel repair and am ready to drill the hole and install the SS pin that acts as a stop for the centerboard. I understand it?s 3/8? dia x about 3? long. Was there anything special about these, or will any 3/8? x the correct length SS bolt work?
I do not intend to counter boar the holes. I don?t want to take away any more meat. It already busted out once, before I owed it. I don?t know if the original one was counter boarded or not. The pivot pin is. Any thoughts?
Thanks. I?m not sure how to post things to the sight in general. I just replied to one of the emails.
Gary Froeschner Columbia, MO M17 ? hall #095
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: jerry@jerrymontgomery.org Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 3:17 PM To: Erik Stavrand; 'For and abmontgomery forum Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rigging for my boat
I don?t know about the gallows. A difference between Dave Scobie and myself is that he likes lots of gadgets and I like simplicity. I have the greatest respect for Dave- he?s a smart guy and is probably a better all-round sailor than I am. I like all the things that make a boat sail better and faster, and aside from that I like things that make it easier to sail but not at the expense of performance. I?m happy with a mast support that fits in the rudder gudgeons, and as soon as the mast goes up the support goes in the back of my truck, along with the tie-down lines. For you, since you need to lower the mast to go under the bridge, maybe it would work to just keep the mast support on the boat and drop the mast on it. obviously you?d need to sister the rudder gudgeons so you wouldn?t need to unship the rudder. To me, the gallows is weight aloft, and windage, both of which are detrimental to performance. When I anchor I?m perfectly happy to either hook the end of the boom to the backstay triangle, or, in the case of the M-15, which I?ve done some cruising in, using the main halyard, then furling the main on the boom and setting up the cockpit awning over the boom. I can see the value of a gallows on a ?real? bluewater boat that will be sitting for days or weeks at anchor, but not a trailerable.
I?m going to take the liberty of putting this thread on the M forum; some of those people will have something to say. M-17 owners- be aware that the Sage has the shrouds swept aft since it?s a 7/8 rig, so the M-23-type (also used on many others) of mast stabilizer won?t work as far as I can see. Doesn?t mean that some smart M-15 user, which has the same characteristic, hasn?t some up with a simple and ingenious way to get the job done. If so, hopefully you?ll hear from him/her. Good luck and I?ll get back to you if I come up with anything.
From: Erik Stavrand Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 1:27 PM To: jerry@jerrymontgomery.org Subject: Re: Rigging for my boat
Hi Jerry,
Thanks for the suggestion - it is elegant. I?ll be interested in your thoughts after the race - good luck.
Also - I?m thinking I?ll need a boom gallows (or a crutch for the boom and mast). As rigged from Sage can the mast come back with the boom attached?
Thanks,
Erik
Erik Stavrand stavrand@me.com
If your dreams don?t scare you they?re not big enough.
On May 21, 2018, at 4:06 PM, jerry@jerrymontgomery.org wrote:
I'd use the jib halyard rather than the forestay. it might work to attach the halyard to the bow pulpit, then run it back to the winch as usual. You'd still need someone (or something) to keep the mast from going off to one side. I have a race this weekend and I'll think about it. I'm soon going to be 78 and am starting to get weak and wobbly so I need to work out something for my boat before I fall off!
-----Original Message----- From: Erik Stavrand Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 5:26 AM To: jerry@jerrymontgomery.org Subject: Rigging for my boat
Hi Jerry,
I have a Sage 17 and am interested in your recommendation for a rapid mast raising system using the tabernacle. The marina near my house has a railway crossing that I?ll need to go under. Do you think the headstay could be led to a turning block and aft to the cockpit?
Thanks in advance for your input!
Erik
Erik Stavrand 941-661-9609
------------------------------
Message: 4 Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 08:05:51 -0400 From: <swwheatley@comcast.net> To: "'For and about Montgomery Sailboats'" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Question on port cockpit locker lid/seat, early M17 Message-ID: <000d01d3f28e$653e5ce0$2fbb16a0$@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
My M17 is a June 1976 build. It has balsa core in what you might call the upper deck, but has foam core in the cockpit area. Based on my boat, the foam core under the port locker lid should look just like the foam core under the starboard locker lid, only bigger. I would not assume you are looking at a crappy DIY job. On my boat, I replaced the foam core under the starboard cockpit seat (the larger seat area, not the locker lid) because huge voids were it should have been bedded in polyester resin were causing it to delaminate. That part of the build must have been done on a Friday afternoon. I used one of the modern foam cores (Divinylcel or something like that) bedded in epoxy resin and covered with one layer of glass--a big improvement over the OEM florist foam job.
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of John Schinnerer Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 2:44 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Question on port cockpit locker lid/seat, early M17
My M17 is #38, 1974. Has the small starboard locker/seat, and the longer port one.
I am wondering if anyone can tell me what is on the underside of their port locker lid/seat, for a similar vintage boat, to brace/support the seat function of the lid.
The small starboard lid/seat has a nice factory foam core with glass over it to stiffen it up.
The port one, on mine, has an obviously DIY very badly done raised foam core and fiberglass attempt to stiffen it up. But it doesn't look like it replaced a failed OEM one, or that an OEM one was cut away (WTF would do that?)...?
What (if anything) was used to support/stiffen the underside of the port seat/lid on early M17's?
The hack job stiffener is coming loose along the edges (resin/glass wasn't bonded well to underside of seat) so I need to remove it and do something else to stiffen up that seat.
I am thinking to just put a couple layers of 6 oz cloth and epoxy (or maybe just one will be enough). Way easier than trying to do a foam core stiffener.
Any reason I should try and do something fancier?
thanks, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 5 Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 08:33:32 -0500 From: Dan Farrell <msog@danf.us> To: Msog List <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rigging for my boat Message-ID: <gj7vdbet71ubix1afksfcsbs.1527082340620@email.android.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
When I don't feel like trying to manhandle the thing, I usually do something similar.? Instead of the mainsheet tackle, I use my jib sheet blocks , which are easier to detach.? I clip one to the bow and one to the jib halyard.? Then I run a long line from the bow cleat through the jib block and then the bow block and back to one of the jib sheet winches.? It works very well and is pretty simple to rig up.? I've done it at the dock a few times to retrieve skyed halyards and it worked.? In a pinch, I think I'd do the same thing underway.?
I can't imagine trying to for a gallows comfortably on the 17.? I'd be tempted to build a little removable triangle support instead , standing it up against the cockpit combings in line with the backstay and securing with guys to the backstay chainplates and jib cleats. Send like a cheap and easy thing to build, rig, and store when not in use!
Dan Farrell M17 #301
John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Agree with Jerry, use the jib halyard not the forestay.
One good reason being,you need to detach and re-attach the forestay when lowering/raising mast, so you want the tension of raising and lowering on something else, not on the forestay. Otherwise...what's holding the mast up, while you detach the forestay to lower or reattach it after raising? How do you get a little slack in the forestay to get it connected?
On my M-17 I raise/lower using jib halyard and additional line/tackle, with attachment point forward being the bow pulpit.
To lower I just use a line (clipped to jib halyard) with friction turns around a winch, I can reach up & lower the mast weight OK myself from rear of cockpit when the line gets too low angle to work.
To raise I put my mainsheet tackle in the system. Boom block clips to jib halyard. Traveler block with cam cleat clips to bow pulpit. That way the cam cleat works to hold the raising line as I go up, I can pause going up, move feet or hands, etc. any time with the line held by the cam.
Also agree about simplicity...I like to keep my systems as simple as possible to meet the essential needs. Less is more, as the saying goes...less to tangle or trip over, less to maintain, less to take out and put away, clean, dry, etc.
cheers, John S.
On 05/21/2018 02:11 PM, jerry@jerrymontgomery.org wrote:
I don?t know about the gallows. A difference between Dave Scobie and myself is that he likes lots of gadgets and I like simplicity. I have the greatest respect for Dave- he?s a smart guy and is probably a better all-round sailor than I am. I like all the things that make a boat sail better and faster, and aside from that I like things that make it easier to sail but not at the expense of performance. I?m happy with a mast support that fits in the rudder gudgeons, and as soon as the mast goes up the support goes in the back of my truck, along with the tie-down lines. For you, since you need to lower the mast to go under the bridge, maybe it would work to just keep the mast support on the boat and drop the mast on it. obviously you?d need to sister the rudder gudgeons so you wouldn?t need to unship the rudder. To me, the gallows is weight aloft, and windage, both of which are detrimental to performance. When I anchor I?m perfectly happy to either hook the end of the boom to the backstay triangle, or, in the case of the M-15, which I?ve done some cruising in, using the main halyard, then furling the main on the boom and setting up the cockpit awning over the boom. I can see the value of a gallows on a ?real? bluewater boat that will be sitting for days or weeks at anchor, but not a trailerable.
I?m going to take the liberty of putting this thread on the M forum; some of those people will have something to say. M-17 owners- be aware that the Sage has the shrouds swept aft since it?s a 7/8 rig, so the M-23-type (also used on many others) of mast stabilizer won?t work as far as I can see. Doesn?t mean that some smart M-15 user, which has the same characteristic, hasn?t some up with a simple and ingenious way to get the job done. If so, hopefully you?ll hear from him/her. Good luck and I?ll get back to you if I come up with anything.
From: Erik Stavrand Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 1:27 PM To: jerry@jerrymontgomery.org Subject: Re: Rigging for my boat
Hi Jerry,
Thanks for the suggestion - it is elegant. I?ll be interested in your thoughts after the race - good luck.
Also - I?m thinking I?ll need a boom gallows (or a crutch for the boom and mast). As rigged from Sage can the mast come back with the boom attached?
Thanks,
Erik
Erik Stavrand stavrand@me.com
If your dreams don?t scare you they?re not big enough.
On May 21, 2018, at 4:06 PM, jerry@jerrymontgomery.org wrote:
I'd use the jib halyard rather than the forestay. it might work to attach the halyard to the bow pulpit, then run it back to the winch as usual. You'd still need someone (or something) to keep the mast from going off to one side. I have a race this weekend and I'll think about it. I'm soon going to be 78 and am starting to get weak and wobbly so I need to work out something for my boat before I fall off!
-----Original Message----- From: Erik Stavrand Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 5:26 AM To: jerry@jerrymontgomery.org Subject: Rigging for my boat
Hi Jerry,
I have a Sage 17 and am interested in your recommendation for a rapid mast raising system using the tabernacle. The marina near my house has a railway crossing that I?ll need to go under. Do you think the headstay could be led to a turning block and aft to the cockpit?
Thanks in advance for your input!
Erik
Erik Stavrand 941-661-9609
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 6 Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 12:06:55 -0400 From: Erik Stavrand <stavrand@me.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rigging for my boat Message-ID: <1DFD7F8F-12EF-4EFC-ABEC-8D13262D54EC@me.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Hi Dan and John,
Thanks for the input - I?ll send updates as it progresses (later this summer).
Erik
On May 23, 2018, at 9:33 AM, Dan Farrell <msog@danf.us> wrote:
When I don't feel like trying to manhandle the thing, I usually do something similar. Instead of the mainsheet tackle, I use my jib sheet blocks , which are easier to detach. I clip one to the bow and one to the jib halyard. Then I run a long line from the bow cleat through the jib block and then the bow block and back to one of the jib sheet winches. It works very well and is pretty simple to rig up. I've done it at the dock a few times to retrieve skyed halyards and it worked. In a pinch, I think I'd do the same thing underway.
I can't imagine trying to for a gallows comfortably on the 17. I'd be tempted to build a little removable triangle support instead , standing it up against the cockpit combings in line with the backstay and securing with guys to the backstay chainplates and jib cleats. Send like a cheap and easy thing to build, rig, and store when not in use!
Dan Farrell M17 #301
John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Agree with Jerry, use the jib halyard not the forestay.
One good reason being,you need to detach and re-attach the forestay when lowering/raising mast, so you want the tension of raising and lowering on something else, not on the forestay. Otherwise...what's holding the mast up, while you detach the forestay to lower or reattach it after raising? How do you get a little slack in the forestay to get it connected?
On my M-17 I raise/lower using jib halyard and additional line/tackle, with attachment point forward being the bow pulpit.
To lower I just use a line (clipped to jib halyard) with friction turns around a winch, I can reach up & lower the mast weight OK myself from rear of cockpit when the line gets too low angle to work.
To raise I put my mainsheet tackle in the system. Boom block clips to jib halyard. Traveler block with cam cleat clips to bow pulpit. That way the cam cleat works to hold the raising line as I go up, I can pause going up, move feet or hands, etc. any time with the line held by the cam.
Also agree about simplicity...I like to keep my systems as simple as possible to meet the essential needs. Less is more, as the saying goes...less to tangle or trip over, less to maintain, less to take out and put away, clean, dry, etc.
cheers, John S.
On 05/21/2018 02:11 PM, jerry@jerrymontgomery.org wrote:
I don?t know about the gallows. A difference between Dave Scobie and myself is that he likes lots of gadgets and I like simplicity. I have the greatest respect for Dave- he?s a smart guy and is probably a better all-round sailor than I am. I like all the things that make a boat sail better and faster, and aside from that I like things that make it easier to sail but not at the expense of performance. I?m happy with a mast support that fits in the rudder gudgeons, and as soon as the mast goes up the support goes in the back of my truck, along with the tie-down lines. For you, since you need to lower the mast to go under the bridge, maybe it would work to just keep the mast support on the boat and drop the mast on it. obviously you?d need to sister the rudder gudgeons so you wouldn?t need to unship the rudder. To me, the gallows is weight aloft, and windage, both of which are detrimental to performance. When I anchor I?m perfectly happy to either hook the end of the boom to the backstay triangle, or, in the case of the M-15, which I?ve done some cruising in, using the main halyard, then furling the main on the boom and setting up the cockpit awning over the boom. I can see the value of a gallows on a ?real? bluewater boat that will be sitting for days or weeks at anchor, but not a trailerable.
I?m going to take the liberty of putting this thread on the M forum; some of those people will have something to say. M-17 owners- be aware that the Sage has the shrouds swept aft since it?s a 7/8 rig, so the M-23-type (also used on many others) of mast stabilizer won?t work as far as I can see. Doesn?t mean that some smart M-15 user, which has the same characteristic, hasn?t some up with a simple and ingenious way to get the job done. If so, hopefully you?ll hear from him/her. Good luck and I?ll get back to you if I come up with anything.
From: Erik Stavrand Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 1:27 PM To: jerry@jerrymontgomery.org Subject: Re: Rigging for my boat
Hi Jerry,
Thanks for the suggestion - it is elegant. I?ll be interested in your thoughts after the race - good luck.
Also - I?m thinking I?ll need a boom gallows (or a crutch for the boom and mast). As rigged from Sage can the mast come back with the boom attached?
Thanks,
Erik
Erik Stavrand stavrand@me.com
If your dreams don?t scare you they?re not big enough.
On May 21, 2018, at 4:06 PM, jerry@jerrymontgomery.org wrote:
I'd use the jib halyard rather than the forestay. it might work to attach the halyard to the bow pulpit, then run it back to the winch as usual. You'd still need someone (or something) to keep the mast from going off to one side. I have a race this weekend and I'll think about it. I'm soon going to be 78 and am starting to get weak and wobbly so I need to work out something for my boat before I fall off!
-----Original Message----- From: Erik Stavrand Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 5:26 AM To: jerry@jerrymontgomery.org Subject: Rigging for my boat
Hi Jerry,
I have a Sage 17 and am interested in your recommendation for a rapid mast raising system using the tabernacle. The marina near my house has a railway crossing that I?ll need to go under. Do you think the headstay could be led to a turning block and aft to the cockpit?
Thanks in advance for your input!
Erik
Erik Stavrand 941-661-9609
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 7 Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 10:12:10 -0700 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: CB stop pin Message-ID: <cac34980-87e9-81d2-899f-ea245a15af77@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
I had to redo that area on my M17 also (#38).
I countersunk the hex head end of the bolt, but not the nut end. The head is fairly thin so it's a small countersink. The nut end, being a nylon insert locknut, would be about twice as deep a countersink so for now it just snugs down against the keel surface. I might partially countersink it at some point. I would keep some of the flats exposed in order to be able to get a wrench or socket on it. Otherwise I'd have to make the countersink hole wide enough to get a socket into and I'd rather minimize the removal of material in that area.
I also did what Tom mentioned, put a piece of 3/8" ID fuel hose on the bolt. NOTE that this is a minor cushioning measure to avoid the metal on metal at CB and stop pin. If one drops the early model very heavy CB with "too much" force the pin will bust out regardless of fuel hose or no fuel hose.
cheers, John S.
On 05/22/2018 07:34 PM, Gary Froeschner wrote:
I am replacing the centerboard stop pin in my M17. It was busted out and long gone. I?ve finished the keel repair and am ready to drill the hole and install the SS pin that acts as a stop for the centerboard. I understand it?s 3/8? dia x about 3? long. Was there anything special about these, or will any 3/8? x the correct length SS bolt work?
I do not intend to counter boar the holes. I don?t want to take away any more meat. It already busted out once, before I owed it. I don?t know if the original one was counter boarded or not. The pivot pin is. Any thoughts?
Thanks. I?m not sure how to post things to the sight in general. I just replied to one of the emails.
Gary Froeschner Columbia, MO M17 ? hall #095
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: jerry@jerrymontgomery.org Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 3:17 PM To: Erik Stavrand; 'For and abmontgomery forum Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rigging for my boat
I don?t know about the gallows. A difference between Dave Scobie and myself is that he likes lots of gadgets and I like simplicity. I have the greatest respect for Dave- he?s a smart guy and is probably a better all-round sailor than I am. I like all the things that make a boat sail better and faster, and aside from that I like things that make it easier to sail but not at the expense of performance. I?m happy with a mast support that fits in the rudder gudgeons, and as soon as the mast goes up the support goes in the back of my truck, along with the tie-down lines. For you, since you need to lower the mast to go under the bridge, maybe it would work to just keep the mast support on the boat and drop the mast on it. obviously you?d need to sister the rudder gudgeons so you wouldn?t need to unship the rudder. To me, the gallows is weight aloft, and windage, both of which are detrimental to performance. When I anchor I?m perfectly happy to either hook the end of the boom to the backstay triangle, or, in the case of the M-15, which I?ve done some cruising in, using the main halyard, then furling the main on the boom and setting up the cockpit awning over the boom. I can see the value of a gallows on a ?real? bluewater boat that will be sitting for days or weeks at anchor, but not a trailerable.
I?m going to take the liberty of putting this thread on the M forum; some of those people will have something to say. M-17 owners- be aware that the Sage has the shrouds swept aft since it?s a 7/8 rig, so the M-23-type (also used on many others) of mast stabilizer won?t work as far as I can see. Doesn?t mean that some smart M-15 user, which has the same characteristic, hasn?t some up with a simple and ingenious way to get the job done. If so, hopefully you?ll hear from him/her. Good luck and I?ll get back to you if I come up with anything.
From: Erik Stavrand Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 1:27 PM To: jerry@jerrymontgomery.org Subject: Re: Rigging for my boat
Hi Jerry,
Thanks for the suggestion - it is elegant. I?ll be interested in your thoughts after the race - good luck.
Also - I?m thinking I?ll need a boom gallows (or a crutch for the boom and mast). As rigged from Sage can the mast come back with the boom attached?
Thanks,
Erik
Erik Stavrand stavrand@me.com
If your dreams don?t scare you they?re not big enough.
On May 21, 2018, at 4:06 PM, jerry@jerrymontgomery.org wrote:
I'd use the jib halyard rather than the forestay. it might work to attach the halyard to the bow pulpit, then run it back to the winch as usual. You'd still need someone (or something) to keep the mast from going off to one side. I have a race this weekend and I'll think about it. I'm soon going to be 78 and am starting to get weak and wobbly so I need to work out something for my boat before I fall off!
-----Original Message----- From: Erik Stavrand Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 5:26 AM To: jerry@jerrymontgomery.org Subject: Rigging for my boat
Hi Jerry,
I have a Sage 17 and am interested in your recommendation for a rapid mast raising system using the tabernacle. The marina near my house has a railway crossing that I?ll need to go under. Do you think the headstay could be led to a turning block and aft to the cockpit?
Thanks in advance for your input!
Erik
Erik Stavrand 941-661-9609
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________ montgomery_boats mailing list montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com https://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
------------------------------
End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 183, Issue 17 *************************************************
Hi Jon, How much freedom of movement does the rudder have with the mast raising device attached? Could I have the mast in the crutch and motor under a bridge and retain steerage ability? Thanks, Erik
On May 24, 2018, at 10:00 AM, Jon Barber <brbrbarber@gmail.com> wrote:
On the tabrnackle debate and simplifying mast raising, I agree with Jerry, the simpler the better. Since installing a Rudder Craft Rudder with mast raising device I no longer have to ship and unship my rudder when launching and retrieving, or find a place to stow the rudder for trailering. Seems trivial but saves loads of time. The mast raising support remains installed and available for use anytime. I frequently lower and raise the mast at the slip or dockside where I feel the process is safer than on the trailer, where a fall would be from a greater height, and onto the hard. I also can exit the parking lot within 20 minutes, making that space available for others.
My mast raising tackle is a salvaged mainsheet, attached to the bow and , use the jib halyard. Mast raising device in the extended position, I simply push the mast up. Not at all difficult. After a certain angle is attained leverage takes over. After lowering I secure the tackle to the toe rail so it is in place for the next raising, saving another step.
Every step you eliminate when launching and retrieving saves time and lets you get on with the real business; that of sailing these fine boats.
Jon Barber Montgomery 17 Ol'44
On Wed, May 23, 2018, 11:01 AM < montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Send montgomery_boats mailing list submissions to montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
https://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com
You can reach the person managing the list at montgomery_boats-owner@mailman.xmission.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Question on port cockpit locker lid/seat, early M17 (jerry@jerrymontgomery.org) 2. Re: Rigging for my boat (Gary Froeschner) 3. Re: Rigging for my boat (Thomas Buzzi) 4. Re: Question on port cockpit locker lid/seat, early M17 (swwheatley@comcast.net) 5. Re: Rigging for my boat (Dan Farrell) 6. Re: Rigging for my boat (Erik Stavrand) 7. Re: CB stop pin (John Schinnerer)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 13:48:52 -0700 From: <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Question on port cockpit locker lid/seat, early M17 Message-ID: <92995E9DB42B44FABD7A3D394AB01083@CH002914> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response
The first few 17's had a core of foam, but when balsa core became readily available we switched to that. Balsa is far better for a deck. At this point grind or peel the aftermarket core out and replace it with either balsa or plywood, using epoxy resin. If the flat of the hatch cover is distorted I'd use plywood, bonding it in and putting some weight on the plywood until the epoxy cures, then covering the ply with a layer of cloth, again with epoxy.
-----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 11:43 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Question on port cockpit locker lid/seat, early M17
My M17 is #38, 1974. Has the small starboard locker/seat, and the longer port one.
I am wondering if anyone can tell me what is on the underside of their port locker lid/seat, for a similar vintage boat, to brace/support the seat function of the lid.
The small starboard lid/seat has a nice factory foam core with glass over it to stiffen it up.
The port one, on mine, has an obviously DIY very badly done raised foam core and fiberglass attempt to stiffen it up. But it doesn't look like it replaced a failed OEM one, or that an OEM one was cut away (WTF would do that?)...?
What (if anything) was used to support/stiffen the underside of the port seat/lid on early M17's?
The hack job stiffener is coming loose along the edges (resin/glass wasn't bonded well to underside of seat) so I need to remove it and do something else to stiffen up that seat.
I am thinking to just put a couple layers of 6 oz cloth and epoxy (or maybe just one will be enough). Way easier than trying to do a foam core stiffener.
Any reason I should try and do something fancier?
thanks, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 20:34:36 -0600 From: Gary Froeschner <gfroesch@socket.net> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>, Erik Stavrand <stavrand@me.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rigging for my boat Message-ID: <E1fLIjd-0001MG-BS@mx04.mta.xmission.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I am replacing the centerboard stop pin in my M17. It was busted out and long gone. I?ve finished the keel repair and am ready to drill the hole and install the SS pin that acts as a stop for the centerboard. I understand it?s 3/8? dia x about 3? long. Was there anything special about these, or will any 3/8? x the correct length SS bolt work?
I do not intend to counter boar the holes. I don?t want to take away any more meat. It already busted out once, before I owed it. I don?t know if the original one was counter boarded or not. The pivot pin is. Any thoughts?
Thanks. I?m not sure how to post things to the sight in general. I just replied to one of the emails.
Gary Froeschner Columbia, MO M17 ? hall #095
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: jerry@jerrymontgomery.org Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 3:17 PM To: Erik Stavrand; 'For and abmontgomery forum Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rigging for my boat
I don?t know about the gallows. A difference between Dave Scobie and myself is that he likes lots of gadgets and I like simplicity. I have the greatest respect for Dave- he?s a smart guy and is probably a better all-round sailor than I am. I like all the things that make a boat sail better and faster, and aside from that I like things that make it easier to sail but not at the expense of performance. I?m happy with a mast support that fits in the rudder gudgeons, and as soon as the mast goes up the support goes in the back of my truck, along with the tie-down lines. For you, since you need to lower the mast to go under the bridge, maybe it would work to just keep the mast support on the boat and drop the mast on it. obviously you?d need to sister the rudder gudgeons so you wouldn?t need to unship the rudder. To me, the gallows is weight aloft, and windage, both of which are detrimental to performance. When I anchor I?m perfectly happy to either hook the end of the boom to the backstay triangle, or, in the case of the M-15, which I?ve done some cruising in, using the main halyard, then furling the main on the boom and setting up the cockpit awning over the boom. I can see the value of a gallows on a ?real? bluewater boat that will be sitting for days or weeks at anchor, but not a trailerable.
I?m going to take the liberty of putting this thread on the M forum; some of those people will have something to say. M-17 owners- be aware that the Sage has the shrouds swept aft since it?s a 7/8 rig, so the M-23-type (also used on many others) of mast stabilizer won?t work as far as I can see. Doesn?t mean that some smart M-15 user, which has the same characteristic, hasn?t some up with a simple and ingenious way to get the job done. If so, hopefully you?ll hear from him/her. Good luck and I?ll get back to you if I come up with anything.
From: Erik Stavrand Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 1:27 PM To: jerry@jerrymontgomery.org Subject: Re: Rigging for my boat
Hi Jerry,
Thanks for the suggestion - it is elegant. I?ll be interested in your thoughts after the race - good luck.
Also - I?m thinking I?ll need a boom gallows (or a crutch for the boom and mast). As rigged from Sage can the mast come back with the boom attached?
Thanks,
Erik
Erik Stavrand stavrand@me.com
If your dreams don?t scare you they?re not big enough.
On May 21, 2018, at 4:06 PM, jerry@jerrymontgomery.org wrote:
I'd use the jib halyard rather than the forestay. it might work to attach the halyard to the bow pulpit, then run it back to the winch as usual. You'd still need someone (or something) to keep the mast from going off to one side. I have a race this weekend and I'll think about it. I'm soon going to be 78 and am starting to get weak and wobbly so I need to work out something for my boat before I fall off!
-----Original Message----- From: Erik Stavrand Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 5:26 AM To: jerry@jerrymontgomery.org Subject: Rigging for my boat
Hi Jerry,
I have a Sage 17 and am interested in your recommendation for a rapid mast raising system using the tabernacle. The marina near my house has a railway crossing that I?ll need to go under. Do you think the headstay could be led to a turning block and aft to the cockpit?
Thanks in advance for your input!
Erik
Erik Stavrand 941-661-9609
------------------------------
Message: 3 Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 22:03:01 -0500 From: Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rigging for my boat Message-ID: <CA+TbpAUaLXyNB3H6XodYgPGR1=Rw= 8gMj+NPFgQ_va0g+frtLg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Gary, Countersinking the bolt will weaken what is left down there and will not effect your speed at all. What I did when I changed mine out was, bought a piece of 3/8 inch reinforced rubber fuel line from an auto supply. It was as long as the width of your centerboard slot. As I slid the new bolt through the holes I made sure the bolt also ran through the center of that piece of reinforced rubber fuel line. What this does is wraps your pin with rubber. It makes a big difference in cushioning the impact of your centerboard against that pin and helps preserve the fiberglass, etc. there. If you want to enhance the shock absorbing effect get another piece of hose the same length as the 3/8 inch fuel line with an inside diameter that will fit snugly over the 3/8 inch fuel line. Install the pin through both these rubber hoses. You will have to cut a "V" in the outer one to clear the aft edge of the centerboard but if you do that you will add another layer of shock absorbing rubber on the top of the bolt which is where you want it. Make sure the "V" you cut in the outer hose section will easily clear the trailing edge of the centerboard so it will not be spun by the centerboard as you raise or lower it, thus binding your board. I have used only the one hose but now when I lower the board instead of feeling/hearing a solid "thunk!" I don't hear anything at all. Just the soft landing of the board against the pin. Fair winds, Tom Buzzi, Monty 17, "AS-IS". 1977 #258
On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 9:34 PM, Gary Froeschner <gfroesch@socket.net> wrote:
I am replacing the centerboard stop pin in my M17. It was busted out and long gone. I?ve finished the keel repair and am ready to drill the hole and install the SS pin that acts as a stop for the centerboard. I understand it?s 3/8? dia x about 3? long. Was there anything special about these, or will any 3/8? x the correct length SS bolt work?
I do not intend to counter boar the holes. I don?t want to take away any more meat. It already busted out once, before I owed it. I don?t know if the original one was counter boarded or not. The pivot pin is. Any thoughts?
Thanks. I?m not sure how to post things to the sight in general. I just replied to one of the emails.
Gary Froeschner Columbia, MO M17 ? hall #095
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: jerry@jerrymontgomery.org Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 3:17 PM To: Erik Stavrand; 'For and abmontgomery forum Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rigging for my boat
I don?t know about the gallows. A difference between Dave Scobie and myself is that he likes lots of gadgets and I like simplicity. I have the greatest respect for Dave- he?s a smart guy and is probably a better all-round sailor than I am. I like all the things that make a boat sail better and faster, and aside from that I like things that make it easier to sail but not at the expense of performance. I?m happy with a mast support that fits in the rudder gudgeons, and as soon as the mast goes up the support goes in the back of my truck, along with the tie-down lines. For you, since you need to lower the mast to go under the bridge, maybe it would work to just keep the mast support on the boat and drop the mast on it. obviously you?d need to sister the rudder gudgeons so you wouldn?t need to unship the rudder. To me, the gallows is weight aloft, and windage, both of which are detrimental to performance. When I anchor I?m perfectly happy to either hook the end of the boom to the backstay triangle, or, in the case of the M-15, which I?ve done some cruising in, using the main halyard, then furling the main on the boom and setting up the cockpit awning over the boom. I can see the value of a gallows on a ?real? bluewater boat that will be sitting for days or weeks at anchor, but not a trailerable.
I?m going to take the liberty of putting this thread on the M forum; some of those people will have something to say. M-17 owners- be aware that the Sage has the shrouds swept aft since it?s a 7/8 rig, so the M-23-type (also used on many others) of mast stabilizer won?t work as far as I can see. Doesn?t mean that some smart M-15 user, which has the same characteristic, hasn?t some up with a simple and ingenious way to get the job done. If so, hopefully you?ll hear from him/her. Good luck and I?ll get back to you if I come up with anything.
From: Erik Stavrand Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 1:27 PM To: jerry@jerrymontgomery.org Subject: Re: Rigging for my boat
Hi Jerry,
Thanks for the suggestion - it is elegant. I?ll be interested in your thoughts after the race - good luck.
Also - I?m thinking I?ll need a boom gallows (or a crutch for the boom and mast). As rigged from Sage can the mast come back with the boom attached?
Thanks,
Erik
Erik Stavrand stavrand@me.com
If your dreams don?t scare you they?re not big enough.
On May 21, 2018, at 4:06 PM, jerry@jerrymontgomery.org wrote:
I'd use the jib halyard rather than the forestay. it might work to attach the halyard to the bow pulpit, then run it back to the winch as usual. You'd still need someone (or something) to keep the mast from going off to one side. I have a race this weekend and I'll think about it. I'm soon going to be 78 and am starting to get weak and wobbly so I need to work out something for my boat before I fall off!
-----Original Message----- From: Erik Stavrand Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 5:26 AM To: jerry@jerrymontgomery.org Subject: Rigging for my boat
Hi Jerry,
I have a Sage 17 and am interested in your recommendation for a rapid mast raising system using the tabernacle. The marina near my house has a railway crossing that I?ll need to go under. Do you think the headstay could be led to a turning block and aft to the cockpit?
Thanks in advance for your input!
Erik
Erik Stavrand 941-661-9609
------------------------------
Message: 4 Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 08:05:51 -0400 From: <swwheatley@comcast.net> To: "'For and about Montgomery Sailboats'" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Question on port cockpit locker lid/seat, early M17 Message-ID: <000d01d3f28e$653e5ce0$2fbb16a0$@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
My M17 is a June 1976 build. It has balsa core in what you might call the upper deck, but has foam core in the cockpit area. Based on my boat, the foam core under the port locker lid should look just like the foam core under the starboard locker lid, only bigger. I would not assume you are looking at a crappy DIY job. On my boat, I replaced the foam core under the starboard cockpit seat (the larger seat area, not the locker lid) because huge voids were it should have been bedded in polyester resin were causing it to delaminate. That part of the build must have been done on a Friday afternoon. I used one of the modern foam cores (Divinylcel or something like that) bedded in epoxy resin and covered with one layer of glass--a big improvement over the OEM florist foam job.
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of John Schinnerer Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 2:44 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Question on port cockpit locker lid/seat, early M17
My M17 is #38, 1974. Has the small starboard locker/seat, and the longer port one.
I am wondering if anyone can tell me what is on the underside of their port locker lid/seat, for a similar vintage boat, to brace/support the seat function of the lid.
The small starboard lid/seat has a nice factory foam core with glass over it to stiffen it up.
The port one, on mine, has an obviously DIY very badly done raised foam core and fiberglass attempt to stiffen it up. But it doesn't look like it replaced a failed OEM one, or that an OEM one was cut away (WTF would do that?)...?
What (if anything) was used to support/stiffen the underside of the port seat/lid on early M17's?
The hack job stiffener is coming loose along the edges (resin/glass wasn't bonded well to underside of seat) so I need to remove it and do something else to stiffen up that seat.
I am thinking to just put a couple layers of 6 oz cloth and epoxy (or maybe just one will be enough). Way easier than trying to do a foam core stiffener.
Any reason I should try and do something fancier?
thanks, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 5 Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 08:33:32 -0500 From: Dan Farrell <msog@danf.us> To: Msog List <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rigging for my boat Message-ID: <gj7vdbet71ubix1afksfcsbs.1527082340620@email.android.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
When I don't feel like trying to manhandle the thing, I usually do something similar.? Instead of the mainsheet tackle, I use my jib sheet blocks , which are easier to detach.? I clip one to the bow and one to the jib halyard.? Then I run a long line from the bow cleat through the jib block and then the bow block and back to one of the jib sheet winches.? It works very well and is pretty simple to rig up.? I've done it at the dock a few times to retrieve skyed halyards and it worked.? In a pinch, I think I'd do the same thing underway.?
I can't imagine trying to for a gallows comfortably on the 17.? I'd be tempted to build a little removable triangle support instead , standing it up against the cockpit combings in line with the backstay and securing with guys to the backstay chainplates and jib cleats. Send like a cheap and easy thing to build, rig, and store when not in use!
Dan Farrell M17 #301
John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Agree with Jerry, use the jib halyard not the forestay.
One good reason being,you need to detach and re-attach the forestay when lowering/raising mast, so you want the tension of raising and lowering on something else, not on the forestay. Otherwise...what's holding the mast up, while you detach the forestay to lower or reattach it after raising? How do you get a little slack in the forestay to get it connected?
On my M-17 I raise/lower using jib halyard and additional line/tackle, with attachment point forward being the bow pulpit.
To lower I just use a line (clipped to jib halyard) with friction turns around a winch, I can reach up & lower the mast weight OK myself from rear of cockpit when the line gets too low angle to work.
To raise I put my mainsheet tackle in the system. Boom block clips to jib halyard. Traveler block with cam cleat clips to bow pulpit. That way the cam cleat works to hold the raising line as I go up, I can pause going up, move feet or hands, etc. any time with the line held by the cam.
Also agree about simplicity...I like to keep my systems as simple as possible to meet the essential needs. Less is more, as the saying goes...less to tangle or trip over, less to maintain, less to take out and put away, clean, dry, etc.
cheers, John S.
On 05/21/2018 02:11 PM, jerry@jerrymontgomery.org wrote:
I don?t know about the gallows. A difference between Dave Scobie and myself is that he likes lots of gadgets and I like simplicity. I have the greatest respect for Dave- he?s a smart guy and is probably a better all-round sailor than I am. I like all the things that make a boat sail better and faster, and aside from that I like things that make it easier to sail but not at the expense of performance. I?m happy with a mast support that fits in the rudder gudgeons, and as soon as the mast goes up the support goes in the back of my truck, along with the tie-down lines. For you, since you need to lower the mast to go under the bridge, maybe it would work to just keep the mast support on the boat and drop the mast on it. obviously you?d need to sister the rudder gudgeons so you wouldn?t need to unship the rudder. To me, the gallows is weight aloft, and windage, both of which are detrimental to performance. When I anchor I?m perfectly happy to either hook the end of the boom to the backstay triangle, or, in the case of the M-15, which I?ve done some cruising in, using the main halyard, then furling the main on the boom and setting up the cockpit awning over the boom. I can see the value of a gallows on a ?real? bluewater boat that will be sitting for days or weeks at anchor, but not a trailerable.
I?m going to take the liberty of putting this thread on the M forum; some of those people will have something to say. M-17 owners- be aware that the Sage has the shrouds swept aft since it?s a 7/8 rig, so the M-23-type (also used on many others) of mast stabilizer won?t work as far as I can see. Doesn?t mean that some smart M-15 user, which has the same characteristic, hasn?t some up with a simple and ingenious way to get the job done. If so, hopefully you?ll hear from him/her. Good luck and I?ll get back to you if I come up with anything.
From: Erik Stavrand Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 1:27 PM To: jerry@jerrymontgomery.org Subject: Re: Rigging for my boat
Hi Jerry,
Thanks for the suggestion - it is elegant. I?ll be interested in your thoughts after the race - good luck.
Also - I?m thinking I?ll need a boom gallows (or a crutch for the boom and mast). As rigged from Sage can the mast come back with the boom attached?
Thanks,
Erik
Erik Stavrand stavrand@me.com
If your dreams don?t scare you they?re not big enough.
On May 21, 2018, at 4:06 PM, jerry@jerrymontgomery.org wrote:
I'd use the jib halyard rather than the forestay. it might work to attach the halyard to the bow pulpit, then run it back to the winch as usual. You'd still need someone (or something) to keep the mast from going off to one side. I have a race this weekend and I'll think about it. I'm soon going to be 78 and am starting to get weak and wobbly so I need to work out something for my boat before I fall off!
-----Original Message----- From: Erik Stavrand Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 5:26 AM To: jerry@jerrymontgomery.org Subject: Rigging for my boat
Hi Jerry,
I have a Sage 17 and am interested in your recommendation for a rapid mast raising system using the tabernacle. The marina near my house has a railway crossing that I?ll need to go under. Do you think the headstay could be led to a turning block and aft to the cockpit?
Thanks in advance for your input!
Erik
Erik Stavrand 941-661-9609
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 6 Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 12:06:55 -0400 From: Erik Stavrand <stavrand@me.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rigging for my boat Message-ID: <1DFD7F8F-12EF-4EFC-ABEC-8D13262D54EC@me.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Hi Dan and John,
Thanks for the input - I?ll send updates as it progresses (later this summer).
Erik
On May 23, 2018, at 9:33 AM, Dan Farrell <msog@danf.us> wrote:
When I don't feel like trying to manhandle the thing, I usually do something similar. Instead of the mainsheet tackle, I use my jib sheet blocks , which are easier to detach. I clip one to the bow and one to the jib halyard. Then I run a long line from the bow cleat through the jib block and then the bow block and back to one of the jib sheet winches. It works very well and is pretty simple to rig up. I've done it at the dock a few times to retrieve skyed halyards and it worked. In a pinch, I think I'd do the same thing underway.
I can't imagine trying to for a gallows comfortably on the 17. I'd be tempted to build a little removable triangle support instead , standing it up against the cockpit combings in line with the backstay and securing with guys to the backstay chainplates and jib cleats. Send like a cheap and easy thing to build, rig, and store when not in use!
Dan Farrell M17 #301
John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Agree with Jerry, use the jib halyard not the forestay.
One good reason being,you need to detach and re-attach the forestay when lowering/raising mast, so you want the tension of raising and lowering on something else, not on the forestay. Otherwise...what's holding the mast up, while you detach the forestay to lower or reattach it after raising? How do you get a little slack in the forestay to get it connected?
On my M-17 I raise/lower using jib halyard and additional line/tackle, with attachment point forward being the bow pulpit.
To lower I just use a line (clipped to jib halyard) with friction turns around a winch, I can reach up & lower the mast weight OK myself from rear of cockpit when the line gets too low angle to work.
To raise I put my mainsheet tackle in the system. Boom block clips to jib halyard. Traveler block with cam cleat clips to bow pulpit. That way the cam cleat works to hold the raising line as I go up, I can pause going up, move feet or hands, etc. any time with the line held by the cam.
Also agree about simplicity...I like to keep my systems as simple as possible to meet the essential needs. Less is more, as the saying goes...less to tangle or trip over, less to maintain, less to take out and put away, clean, dry, etc.
cheers, John S.
On 05/21/2018 02:11 PM, jerry@jerrymontgomery.org wrote:
I don?t know about the gallows. A difference between Dave Scobie and myself is that he likes lots of gadgets and I like simplicity. I have the greatest respect for Dave- he?s a smart guy and is probably a better all-round sailor than I am. I like all the things that make a boat sail better and faster, and aside from that I like things that make it easier to sail but not at the expense of performance. I?m happy with a mast support that fits in the rudder gudgeons, and as soon as the mast goes up the support goes in the back of my truck, along with the tie-down lines. For you, since you need to lower the mast to go under the bridge, maybe it would work to just keep the mast support on the boat and drop the mast on it. obviously you?d need to sister the rudder gudgeons so you wouldn?t need to unship the rudder. To me, the gallows is weight aloft, and windage, both of which are detrimental to performance. When I anchor I?m perfectly happy to either hook the end of the boom to the backstay triangle, or, in the case of the M-15, which I?ve done some cruising in, using the main halyard, then furling the main on the boom and setting up the cockpit awning over the boom. I can see the value of a gallows on a ?real? bluewater boat that will be sitting for days or weeks at anchor, but not a trailerable.
I?m going to take the liberty of putting this thread on the M forum; some of those people will have something to say. M-17 owners- be aware that the Sage has the shrouds swept aft since it?s a 7/8 rig, so the M-23-type (also used on many others) of mast stabilizer won?t work as far as I can see. Doesn?t mean that some smart M-15 user, which has the same characteristic, hasn?t some up with a simple and ingenious way to get the job done. If so, hopefully you?ll hear from him/her. Good luck and I?ll get back to you if I come up with anything.
From: Erik Stavrand Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 1:27 PM To: jerry@jerrymontgomery.org Subject: Re: Rigging for my boat
Hi Jerry,
Thanks for the suggestion - it is elegant. I?ll be interested in your thoughts after the race - good luck.
Also - I?m thinking I?ll need a boom gallows (or a crutch for the boom and mast). As rigged from Sage can the mast come back with the boom attached?
Thanks,
Erik
Erik Stavrand stavrand@me.com
If your dreams don?t scare you they?re not big enough.
On May 21, 2018, at 4:06 PM, jerry@jerrymontgomery.org wrote:
I'd use the jib halyard rather than the forestay. it might work to attach the halyard to the bow pulpit, then run it back to the winch as usual. You'd still need someone (or something) to keep the mast from going off to one side. I have a race this weekend and I'll think about it. I'm soon going to be 78 and am starting to get weak and wobbly so I need to work out something for my boat before I fall off!
-----Original Message----- From: Erik Stavrand Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 5:26 AM To: jerry@jerrymontgomery.org Subject: Rigging for my boat
Hi Jerry,
I have a Sage 17 and am interested in your recommendation for a rapid mast raising system using the tabernacle. The marina near my house has a railway crossing that I?ll need to go under. Do you think the headstay could be led to a turning block and aft to the cockpit?
Thanks in advance for your input!
Erik
Erik Stavrand 941-661-9609
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 7 Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 10:12:10 -0700 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: CB stop pin Message-ID: <cac34980-87e9-81d2-899f-ea245a15af77@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
I had to redo that area on my M17 also (#38).
I countersunk the hex head end of the bolt, but not the nut end. The head is fairly thin so it's a small countersink. The nut end, being a nylon insert locknut, would be about twice as deep a countersink so for now it just snugs down against the keel surface. I might partially countersink it at some point. I would keep some of the flats exposed in order to be able to get a wrench or socket on it. Otherwise I'd have to make the countersink hole wide enough to get a socket into and I'd rather minimize the removal of material in that area.
I also did what Tom mentioned, put a piece of 3/8" ID fuel hose on the bolt. NOTE that this is a minor cushioning measure to avoid the metal on metal at CB and stop pin. If one drops the early model very heavy CB with "too much" force the pin will bust out regardless of fuel hose or no fuel hose.
cheers, John S.
On 05/22/2018 07:34 PM, Gary Froeschner wrote:
I am replacing the centerboard stop pin in my M17. It was busted out and long gone. I?ve finished the keel repair and am ready to drill the hole and install the SS pin that acts as a stop for the centerboard. I understand it?s 3/8? dia x about 3? long. Was there anything special about these, or will any 3/8? x the correct length SS bolt work?
I do not intend to counter boar the holes. I don?t want to take away any more meat. It already busted out once, before I owed it. I don?t know if the original one was counter boarded or not. The pivot pin is. Any thoughts?
Thanks. I?m not sure how to post things to the sight in general. I just replied to one of the emails.
Gary Froeschner Columbia, MO M17 ? hall #095
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
From: jerry@jerrymontgomery.org Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 3:17 PM To: Erik Stavrand; 'For and abmontgomery forum Subject: Re: M_Boats: Rigging for my boat
I don?t know about the gallows. A difference between Dave Scobie and myself is that he likes lots of gadgets and I like simplicity. I have the greatest respect for Dave- he?s a smart guy and is probably a better all-round sailor than I am. I like all the things that make a boat sail better and faster, and aside from that I like things that make it easier to sail but not at the expense of performance. I?m happy with a mast support that fits in the rudder gudgeons, and as soon as the mast goes up the support goes in the back of my truck, along with the tie-down lines. For you, since you need to lower the mast to go under the bridge, maybe it would work to just keep the mast support on the boat and drop the mast on it. obviously you?d need to sister the rudder gudgeons so you wouldn?t need to unship the rudder. To me, the gallows is weight aloft, and windage, both of which are detrimental to performance. When I anchor I?m perfectly happy to either hook the end of the boom to the backstay triangle, or, in the case of the M-15, which I?ve done some cruising in, using the main halyard, then furling the main on the boom and setting up the cockpit awning over the boom. I can see the value of a gallows on a ?real? bluewater boat that will be sitting for days or weeks at anchor, but not a trailerable.
I?m going to take the liberty of putting this thread on the M forum; some of those people will have something to say. M-17 owners- be aware that the Sage has the shrouds swept aft since it?s a 7/8 rig, so the M-23-type (also used on many others) of mast stabilizer won?t work as far as I can see. Doesn?t mean that some smart M-15 user, which has the same characteristic, hasn?t some up with a simple and ingenious way to get the job done. If so, hopefully you?ll hear from him/her. Good luck and I?ll get back to you if I come up with anything.
From: Erik Stavrand Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 1:27 PM To: jerry@jerrymontgomery.org Subject: Re: Rigging for my boat
Hi Jerry,
Thanks for the suggestion - it is elegant. I?ll be interested in your thoughts after the race - good luck.
Also - I?m thinking I?ll need a boom gallows (or a crutch for the boom and mast). As rigged from Sage can the mast come back with the boom attached?
Thanks,
Erik
Erik Stavrand stavrand@me.com
If your dreams don?t scare you they?re not big enough.
On May 21, 2018, at 4:06 PM, jerry@jerrymontgomery.org wrote:
I'd use the jib halyard rather than the forestay. it might work to attach the halyard to the bow pulpit, then run it back to the winch as usual. You'd still need someone (or something) to keep the mast from going off to one side. I have a race this weekend and I'll think about it. I'm soon going to be 78 and am starting to get weak and wobbly so I need to work out something for my boat before I fall off!
-----Original Message----- From: Erik Stavrand Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 5:26 AM To: jerry@jerrymontgomery.org Subject: Rigging for my boat
Hi Jerry,
I have a Sage 17 and am interested in your recommendation for a rapid mast raising system using the tabernacle. The marina near my house has a railway crossing that I?ll need to go under. Do you think the headstay could be led to a turning block and aft to the cockpit?
Thanks in advance for your input!
Erik
Erik Stavrand 941-661-9609
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________ montgomery_boats mailing list montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com https://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
------------------------------
End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 183, Issue 17 *************************************************
participants (2)
-
Erik Stavrand -
Jon Barber