Reading the discussion about motors prompts me to again share an experience I had last year at Lake Powell in my Montgomery 15 which uses a Honda 2 horsepower motor. It was a very windy day with gusts forecast in excess of 45 miles per hour. Seeing the spray blown high into the air makes me think the wind could have been as forecast. We were trying to work our way to weather and were motoring up the main channel of the lake. Waves had up to a mile of fetch so were a factor but were not huge. I had the motor clamped in straight ahead position and had the centerboard up and found that at full throttle I was unable to stay on course into the wind. I did not have enough rudder authority. So, we turned downwind and found a place to stay overnight until the wind died down. I wish I had thought to put the centerboard down because I think that could have helped the steering. I did try turning the motor some and that did help me steer but also put me at the very back of the boat where I was not otherwise useful. I am not sure exactly what to take away from this experience and I would not want a different motor for my Montgomery 15, but it is something I always think about when these discussions about motors come up. With many things, acceptable performance is not dictated by typical conditions but the worse ones that might be experienced. David Grah Bishop California Montgomery 15 Sky PS: My son and I are headed to Santa Cruz Island out of Santa Barbara next Wednesday for two nights if anyone is going to be in the area. Message: 3 Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2014 18:55:24 -0500 From: Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Outboard motor placement Message-ID: <CA+TbpAVF8908s=rxtmV-tf__UQ7bLgNjGSyOagNU5xkn+8rQzg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Thanks one and all for the quick feedback. I guess I will shop for a 4 hp ob to put in the cutout in the transom and keep it locked up otherwise. Fair winds, Tom B ------------------------------
On 13-Jul-14 8:56 AM, David Grah via montgomery_boats wrote: Hi David, You said, I did not have enough rudder authority. Since the rudder needs water flowing over its surface to function, not having "rudder authority" would indicate to me that your headway against 45 miles per hour of wind was "0". The motor was running, but you weren't making any headway. If the boat is not moving, you have no rudder authority. As soon as you turned downwind, you were moving through the water again. Rudder control was regained. Connie
Reading the discussion about motors prompts me to again share an experience I had last year at Lake Powell in my Montgomery 15 which uses a Honda 2 horsepower motor.
It was a very windy day with gusts forecast in excess of 45 miles per hour. Seeing the spray blown high into the air makes me think the wind could have been as forecast. We were trying to work our way to weather and were motoring up the main channel of the lake. Waves had up to a mile of fetch so were a factor but were not huge. I had the motor clamped in straight ahead position and had the centerboard up and found that at full throttle I was unable to stay on course into the wind. I did not have enough rudder authority. So, we turned downwind and found a place to stay overnight until the wind died down.
I wish I had thought to put the centerboard down because I think that could have helped the steering. I did try turning the motor some and that did help me steer but also put me at the very back of the boat where I was not otherwise useful.
I am not sure exactly what to take away from this experience and I would not want a different motor for my Montgomery 15, but it is something I always think about when these discussions about motors come up. With many things, acceptable performance is not dictated by typical conditions but the worse ones that might be experienced.
David Grah Bishop California Montgomery 15 Sky
PS: My son and I are headed to Santa Cruz Island out of Santa Barbara next Wednesday for two nights if anyone is going to be in the area.
Message: 3 Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2014 18:55:24 -0500 From: Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Outboard motor placement Message-ID: <CA+TbpAVF8908s=rxtmV-tf__UQ7bLgNjGSyOagNU5xkn+8rQzg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Thanks one and all for the quick feedback. I guess I will shop for a 4 hp ob to put in the cutout in the transom and keep it locked up otherwise.
Fair winds, Tom B
------------------------------
Thanks Connie. That is right. The 2 horsepower motor did not seem to be able to mover the boat fast enough into that wind to give me enough rudder authority to maintain that direction. The reason I mentioned the centerboard is I can imagine it would have given something more for the boat to pivot around. In other words, with less rudder authority a more resistive "pivot" near the center of the boat could potentially have helped the steering, even with less rudder force being applied to the back of the boat because of the low speed. I did not think to try it at the time, though. David Grah ________________________________ From: Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> To: David Grah <d_b_grah@yahoo.com>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2014 9:36 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Outboard motor placement On 13-Jul-14 8:56 AM, David Grah via montgomery_boats wrote: Hi David, You said, I did not have enough rudder authority. Since the rudder needs water flowing over its surface to function, not having "rudder authority" would indicate to me that your headway against 45 miles per hour of wind was "0". The motor was running, but you weren't making any headway. If the boat is not moving, you have no rudder authority. As soon as you turned downwind, you were moving through the water again. Rudder control was regained. Connie
Reading the discussion about motors prompts me to again share an experience I had last year at Lake Powell in my Montgomery 15 which uses a Honda 2 horsepower motor.
It was a very windy day with gusts forecast in excess of 45 miles per hour. Seeing the spray blown high into the air makes me think the wind could have been as forecast. We were trying to work our way to weather and were motoring up the main channel of the lake. Waves had up to a mile of fetch so were a factor but were not huge. I had the motor clamped in straight ahead position and had the centerboard up and found that at full throttle I was unable to stay on course into the wind. I did not have enough rudder authority. So, we turned downwind and found a place to stay overnight until the wind died down.
I wish I had thought to put the centerboard down because I think that could have helped the steering. I did try turning the motor some and that did help me steer but also put me at the very back of the boat where I was not otherwise useful.
I am not sure exactly what to take away from this experience and I would not want a different motor for my Montgomery 15, but it is something I always think about when these discussions about motors come up. With many things, acceptable performance is not dictated by typical conditions but the worse ones that might be experienced.
David Grah Bishop California Montgomery 15 Sky
PS: My son and I are headed to Santa Cruz Island out of Santa Barbara next Wednesday for two nights if anyone is going to be in the area.
Message: 3 Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2014 18:55:24 -0500 From: Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Outboard motor placement Message-ID: <CA+TbpAVF8908s=rxtmV-tf__UQ7bLgNjGSyOagNU5xkn+8rQzg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Thanks one and all for the quick feedback. I guess I will shop for a 4 hp ob to put in the cutout in the transom and keep it locked up otherwise.
Fair winds, Tom B
------------------------------
Hi David, I think I would have tried "tacking" off the wind a bit to see if I could build enough speed to make way. Not hitting the waves head-on should have helped speed and reduced pounding too. Bill Riker M-15 - #184 Storm Petrel On Jul 14, 2014, at 9:02 AM, David Grah via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Thanks Connie. That is right. The 2 horsepower motor did not seem to be able to mover the boat fast enough into that wind to give me enough rudder authority to maintain that direction. The reason I mentioned the centerboard is I can imagine it would have given something more for the boat to pivot around. In other words, with less rudder authority a more resistive "pivot" near the center of the boat could potentially have helped the steering, even with less rudder force being applied to the back of the boat because of the low speed. I did not think to try it at the time, though.
David Grah
________________________________ From: Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> To: David Grah <d_b_grah@yahoo.com>; For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2014 9:36 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Outboard motor placement
On 13-Jul-14 8:56 AM, David Grah via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hi David,
You said,
I did not have enough rudder authority.
Since the rudder needs water flowing over its surface to function, not having "rudder authority" would indicate to me that your headway against 45 miles per hour of wind was "0". The motor was running, but you weren't making any headway. If the boat is not moving, you have no rudder authority.
As soon as you turned downwind, you were moving through the water again. Rudder control was regained.
Connie
Reading the discussion about motors prompts me to again share an experience I had last year at Lake Powell in my Montgomery 15 which uses a Honda 2 horsepower motor.
It was a very windy day with gusts forecast in excess of 45 miles per hour. Seeing the spray blown high into the air makes me think the wind could have been as forecast. We were trying to work our way to weather and were motoring up the main channel of the lake. Waves had up to a mile of fetch so were a factor but were not huge. I had the motor clamped in straight ahead position and had the centerboard up and found that at full throttle I was unable to stay on course into the wind. I did not have enough rudder authority. So, we turned downwind and found a place to stay overnight until the wind died down.
I wish I had thought to put the centerboard down because I think that could have helped the steering. I did try turning the motor some and that did help me steer but also put me at the very back of the boat where I was not otherwise useful.
I am not sure exactly what to take away from this experience and I would not want a different motor for my Montgomery 15, but it is something I always think about when these discussions about motors come up. With many things, acceptable performance is not dictated by typical conditions but the worse ones that might be experienced.
David Grah Bishop California Montgomery 15 Sky
PS: My son and I are headed to Santa Cruz Island out of Santa Barbara next Wednesday for two nights if anyone is going to be in the area.
Message: 3 Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2014 18:55:24 -0500 From: Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Outboard motor placement Message-ID: <CA+TbpAVF8908s=rxtmV-tf__UQ7bLgNjGSyOagNU5xkn+8rQzg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Thanks one and all for the quick feedback. I guess I will shop for a 4 hp ob to put in the cutout in the transom and keep it locked up otherwise.
Fair winds, Tom B
------------------------------
my folk's old boat, a Cheoy Lee 32 (powered with a good quality inboard diesel that could easily get the boat up to hull speed), would have been challenged to motor straight into 45mph winds and resulting seas. a 2HP motor is a perfect size for the M15. the only limitation is the lack of an external fuel tank option in the Honda. a larger motor is excess weight aft of the stern ... which makes the boat sail poorly. if one often expects to be out in such high winds it would be better to get a set of sails designed for the conditions - storm jib and a triple reefed main. much more comfortable sailing v. motoring. my 2-cents on this issue. :: Dave Scobie On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 12:07 PM, Bill Riker <wriker@mindspring.com> wrote:
Hi David,
I think I would have tried "tacking" off the wind a bit to see if I could build enough speed to make way. Not hitting the waves head-on should have helped speed and reduced pounding too.
Bill Riker M-15 - #184 Storm Petrel
On Jul 14, 2014, at 9:02 AM, David Grah via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Thanks Connie. That is right. The 2 horsepower motor did not seem to be able to mover the boat fast enough into that wind to give me enough rudder authority to maintain that direction. The reason I mentioned the centerboard is I can imagine it would have given something more for the boat to pivot around. In other words, with less rudder authority a more resistive "pivot" near the center of the boat could potentially have helped the steering, even with less rudder force being applied to the back of the boat because of the low speed. I did not think to try it at the time, though.
David Grah
________________________________ From: Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2014 9:36 AM
On 13-Jul-14 8:56 AM, David Grah via montgomery_boats wrote:
Hi David,
You said,
I did not have enough rudder authority.
Since the rudder needs water flowing over its surface to function, not having "rudder authority" would indicate to me that your headway against 45 miles per hour of wind was "0". The motor was running, but you weren't making any headway. If the boat is not moving, you have no rudder authority.
As soon as you turned downwind, you were moving through the water again. Rudder control was regained.
Connie
Reading the discussion about motors prompts me to again share an experience I had last year at Lake Powell in my Montgomery 15 which uses a Honda 2 horsepower motor.
It was a very windy day with gusts forecast in excess of 45 miles per hour. Seeing the spray blown high into the air makes me think the wind could have been as forecast. We were trying to work our way to weather and were motoring up the main channel of the lake. Waves had up to a mile of fetch so were a factor but were not huge. I had the motor clamped in straight ahead position and had the centerboard up and found that at full throttle I was unable to stay on course into the wind. I did not have enough rudder authority. So, we turned downwind and found a place to stay overnight until the wind died down.
I wish I had thought to put the centerboard down because I think that could have helped the steering. I did try turning the motor some and that did help me steer but also put me at the very back of the boat where I was not otherwise useful.
I am not sure exactly what to take away from this experience and I would not want a different motor for my Montgomery 15, but it is something I always think about when these discussions about motors come up. With many things, acceptable performance is not dictated by typical conditions but the worse ones that might be experienced.
David Grah Bishop California Montgomery 15 Sky
participants (4)
-
Bill Riker -
Conbert Benneck -
Dave Scobie -
David Grah