I have had problems retrieving the Boat on the trailer of not getting on the rollers for proper support. I have bunks and 3 rollers for keel support along with a Keel guidance system copied from one of the MON articles. On my previous boat a Person 23CB I had a bunk that supported the keel. What is common on Montgomery trailer set ups? Has anyone had experience converting a M15 trailer to a keel bunk support? Pros,Cons George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
George: the Trail-Rite trailers have two rollers: one at the rear frame and one about the middle of the keel (front to back) on the middle trailer frame crossbeam. i looked for some pictures of my old M15's trailer and couldn't quickly find them ... i can look some more if you like. the Pacific trailers have a keel bunk. pictures of this setup can be taken if you like as the Glesser's M15 sits on a Pacific trailer. :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - http://www.m17-375.webs.com :: Sage 17 #1 - AIR BORN - http://sagemarine.us/sage_17.html :: Sage 15 sloop #001 - ASOLARE - http://sagemarine.us/sage_15.html :: SageCat #000 - SAGECAT - http://sagemarine.us/sagecat.html On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 8:29 PM, George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com> wrote:
I have had problems retrieving the Boat on the trailer of not getting on the rollers for proper support. I have bunks and 3 rollers for keel support along with a Keel guidance system copied from one of the MON articles.
On my previous boat a Person 23CB I had a bunk that supported the keel. What is common on Montgomery trailer set ups? Has anyone had experience converting a M15 trailer to a keel bunk support?
Pros,Cons
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
My 1985 vintage Trail-Rite trailer that was the original trailer from the dealer when I bought my 1985 M-15 (#335) has a keel bunk, but I do not think it has any rollers. I will double check within the next day or two when I go by the marina. Steve M-15 # 335 -----Original Message----- From: Dave Scobie Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 7:54 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Trailer Set Up George: the Trail-Rite trailers have two rollers: one at the rear frame and one about the middle of the keel (front to back) on the middle trailer frame crossbeam. i looked for some pictures of my old M15's trailer and couldn't quickly find them ... i can look some more if you like. the Pacific trailers have a keel bunk. pictures of this setup can be taken if you like as the Glesser's M15 sits on a Pacific trailer. :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - http://www.m17-375.webs.com :: Sage 17 #1 - AIR BORN - http://sagemarine.us/sage_17.html :: Sage 15 sloop #001 - ASOLARE - http://sagemarine.us/sage_15.html :: SageCat #000 - SAGECAT - http://sagemarine.us/sagecat.html On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 8:29 PM, George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com> wrote:
I have had problems retrieving the Boat on the trailer of not getting on the rollers for proper support. I have bunks and 3 rollers for keel support along with a Keel guidance system copied from one of the MON articles.
On my previous boat a Person 23CB I had a bunk that supported the keel. What is common on Montgomery trailer set ups? Has anyone had experience converting a M15 trailer to a keel bunk support?
Pros,Cons
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
...speaking of keels and bunks and rollers, a question on the M17 centerboard. This is a '74 so it's the heavy cast iron CB. When fully up, should it be flush with the bottom of the keel? Mine will not go up quite that far. The rear end protrudes about 1 to 1 1/2 inches. I think it is because there is a rather thick pennant line, and I don't know what knot or fastening setup was used but I'm guessing the knot is long/fat, bulky, double, etc. - in short, taking up space that leaves the CB hanging out that inch-plus. I can see the top of the pennant knot hard against the underside of the pennant hole in the CB trunk - it is as far up as it can go. At some point this winter I hope to get the boat situated so I can lower the board down and see what's up and maybe improve the situation. But should I expect to be able to get the CB up flush with the trunk? thanks, John S. -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
On Oct 26, 2016, at 8:59 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
...speaking of keels and bunks and rollers, a question on the M17 centerboard. This is a '74 so it's the heavy cast iron CB.
When fully up, should it be flush with the bottom of the keel? Mine will not go up quite that far. The rear end protrudes about 1 to 1 1/2 inches.
I think it is because there is a rather thick pennant line, and I don't know what knot or fastening setup was used but I'm guessing the knot is long/fat, bulky, double, etc. - in short, taking up space that leaves the CB hanging out that inch-plus.
I can see the top of the pennant knot hard against the underside of the pennant hole in the CB trunk - it is as far up as it can go.
At some point this winter I hope to get the boat situated so I can lower the board down and see what's up and maybe improve the situation.
But should I expect to be able to get the CB up flush with the trunk?
Mine does too. Not an inch and a half, not even half an inch, but it’s not flush and on the rollers the centerboard makes contact and not the keel. And there’s a small gap at the joint that I epoxied, so probably a little more protruded before it sprang. My pendant is very thin (6mm single-braid Vectran) and I put some work into figuring out the smallest secure knot (a figure-eight hitch, if you care) so I don’t think there’s much wasted space in there.
Thanks all for the feedback on this. I expect I'll find a bulky knot in the fat pennant line when I lower the board...I'd be happy to just get it down to half an inch. As it is, with the trailer I have, the rear roller is behind the keel/CB when the boat is fully on the trailer. In shallow launching situations where the stern isn't deep enough to float off the bunks, the CB protrudes enough to catch on the roller and stop the boat sliding back off the bunks. What is recommended or best options for pennant line replacement? It has some kind of one-color double braid on it now, pretty fat, 3/8 I would guess without going and measuring it. Definitely interested in knots & usage. Not a lot of major references to the figure eight hitch, but I found a few. I know the "regular" figure eight well from climbing/mountaineering but hadn't heard of the hitch version. One video on figure eight hitch says "for light duty" and "not the most secure knot" but obviously it's worked for you David. It would be under tension all the time if used for the CB so in that case I think it would be pretty secure. If alternately slack and tight, I can see how it could slowly loosen itself in some situations. cheers, John S. On 10/26/2016 09:14 PM, David Rifkind wrote:
On Oct 26, 2016, at 8:59 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
...speaking of keels and bunks and rollers, a question on the M17 centerboard. This is a '74 so it's the heavy cast iron CB.
When fully up, should it be flush with the bottom of the keel? Mine will not go up quite that far. The rear end protrudes about 1 to 1 1/2 inches.
I think it is because there is a rather thick pennant line, and I don't know what knot or fastening setup was used but I'm guessing the knot is long/fat, bulky, double, etc. - in short, taking up space that leaves the CB hanging out that inch-plus.
I can see the top of the pennant knot hard against the underside of the pennant hole in the CB trunk - it is as far up as it can go.
At some point this winter I hope to get the boat situated so I can lower the board down and see what's up and maybe improve the situation.
But should I expect to be able to get the CB up flush with the trunk?
Mine does too. Not an inch and a half, not even half an inch, but it’s not flush and on the rollers the centerboard makes contact and not the keel. And there’s a small gap at the joint that I epoxied, so probably a little more protruded before it sprang.
My pendant is very thin (6mm single-braid Vectran) and I put some work into figuring out the smallest secure knot (a figure-eight hitch, if you care) so I don’t think there’s much wasted space in there.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
PS - this is a pennant for the heavy cast iron keel version M17! Not the lightweight newer one. In case I wasn't clear... thanks, John S. On 10/27/2016 10:49 AM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Thanks all for the feedback on this.
I expect I'll find a bulky knot in the fat pennant line when I lower the board...I'd be happy to just get it down to half an inch. As it is, with the trailer I have, the rear roller is behind the keel/CB when the boat is fully on the trailer. In shallow launching situations where the stern isn't deep enough to float off the bunks, the CB protrudes enough to catch on the roller and stop the boat sliding back off the bunks.
What is recommended or best options for pennant line replacement? It has some kind of one-color double braid on it now, pretty fat, 3/8 I would guess without going and measuring it.
Definitely interested in knots & usage. Not a lot of major references to the figure eight hitch, but I found a few. I know the "regular" figure eight well from climbing/mountaineering but hadn't heard of the hitch version. One video on figure eight hitch says "for light duty" and "not the most secure knot" but obviously it's worked for you David. It would be under tension all the time if used for the CB so in that case I think it would be pretty secure. If alternately slack and tight, I can see how it could slowly loosen itself in some situations.
cheers, John S.
On 10/26/2016 09:14 PM, David Rifkind wrote:
On Oct 26, 2016, at 8:59 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
...speaking of keels and bunks and rollers, a question on the M17 centerboard. This is a '74 so it's the heavy cast iron CB.
When fully up, should it be flush with the bottom of the keel? Mine will not go up quite that far. The rear end protrudes about 1 to 1 1/2 inches.
I think it is because there is a rather thick pennant line, and I don't know what knot or fastening setup was used but I'm guessing the knot is long/fat, bulky, double, etc. - in short, taking up space that leaves the CB hanging out that inch-plus.
I can see the top of the pennant knot hard against the underside of the pennant hole in the CB trunk - it is as far up as it can go.
At some point this winter I hope to get the boat situated so I can lower the board down and see what's up and maybe improve the situation.
But should I expect to be able to get the CB up flush with the trunk?
Mine does too. Not an inch and a half, not even half an inch, but it’s not flush and on the rollers the centerboard makes contact and not the keel. And there’s a small gap at the joint that I epoxied, so probably a little more protruded before it sprang.
My pendant is very thin (6mm single-braid Vectran) and I put some work into figuring out the smallest secure knot (a figure-eight hitch, if you care) so I don’t think there’s much wasted space in there.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
here is Jerry's recommendation for the cast iron board pennant line - The line used to raise and lower the CB is 5/16... The trick is to cut away about 4" of the internal core and use that part to tie off at the CenterBoard, making the knot small enough to fit properly in the CB Trunk. :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - http://www.m17-375.webs.com :: Sage 17 #1 - AIR BORN - http://sagemarine.us/sage_17.html :: Sage 15 sloop #001 - ASOLARE - http://sagemarine.us/sage_15.html :: SageCat #000 - SAGECAT - http://sagemarine.us/sagecat.html On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 11:52 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
PS - this is a pennant for the heavy cast iron keel version M17! Not the lightweight newer one. In case I wasn't clear...
thanks, John S.
On 10/27/2016 10:49 AM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Thanks all for the feedback on this.
I expect I'll find a bulky knot in the fat pennant line when I lower the board...I'd be happy to just get it down to half an inch. As it is, with the trailer I have, the rear roller is behind the keel/CB when the boat is fully on the trailer. In shallow launching situations where the stern isn't deep enough to float off the bunks, the CB protrudes enough to catch on the roller and stop the boat sliding back off the bunks.
What is recommended or best options for pennant line replacement? It has some kind of one-color double braid on it now, pretty fat, 3/8 I would guess without going and measuring it.
Definitely interested in knots & usage. Not a lot of major references to the figure eight hitch, but I found a few. I know the "regular" figure eight well from climbing/mountaineering but hadn't heard of the hitch version. One video on figure eight hitch says "for light duty" and "not the most secure knot" but obviously it's worked for you David. It would be under tension all the time if used for the CB so in that case I think it would be pretty secure. If alternately slack and tight, I can see how it could slowly loosen itself in some situations.
cheers, John S.
Thanks Dave, Tom also, I now recall seeing this somewhere in the MSOG site or the like, in notes from Jerry. Is there an "official" recommendation for knot to tie off? Sounds like the figure eight hitch is working for at least one of us. There's lotsa knots in the world...and I see at least one project on MSOG site where a shackle & eye splice was used. And 5/16 was maybe based on line available in "the early years"? We've got stuff now half that size and twice as strong. Keith, didn't you post a while back you were using 5 mm something for pennant? And David has 6 mm. How do those single braid (or other braid) small lines do at getting enough friction on the winch when raising the CB? cheers, John S. On 10/27/2016 11:45 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
here is Jerry's recommendation for the cast iron board pennant line -
The line used to raise and lower the CB is 5/16... The trick is to cut away about 4" of the internal core and use that part to tie off at the CenterBoard, making the knot small enough to fit properly in the CB Trunk.
:: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - http://www.m17-375.webs.com :: Sage 17 #1 - AIR BORN - http://sagemarine.us/sage_17.html :: Sage 15 sloop #001 - ASOLARE - http://sagemarine.us/sage_15.html :: SageCat #000 - SAGECAT - http://sagemarine.us/sagecat.html
On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 11:52 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
PS - this is a pennant for the heavy cast iron keel version M17! Not the lightweight newer one. In case I wasn't clear...
thanks, John S.
On 10/27/2016 10:49 AM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Thanks all for the feedback on this.
I expect I'll find a bulky knot in the fat pennant line when I lower the board...I'd be happy to just get it down to half an inch. As it is, with the trailer I have, the rear roller is behind the keel/CB when the boat is fully on the trailer. In shallow launching situations where the stern isn't deep enough to float off the bunks, the CB protrudes enough to catch on the roller and stop the boat sliding back off the bunks.
What is recommended or best options for pennant line replacement? It has some kind of one-color double braid on it now, pretty fat, 3/8 I would guess without going and measuring it.
Definitely interested in knots & usage. Not a lot of major references to the figure eight hitch, but I found a few. I know the "regular" figure eight well from climbing/mountaineering but hadn't heard of the hitch version. One video on figure eight hitch says "for light duty" and "not the most secure knot" but obviously it's worked for you David. It would be under tension all the time if used for the CB so in that case I think it would be pretty secure. If alternately slack and tight, I can see how it could slowly loosen itself in some situations.
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
PS on this - APS site info page on lines says, re Vectran & Dyneema/Spectra single braid: "When winching or cleating either material, a cover is required to provide grip, bulk and protection." Other line info sources say similar. The CB involves both a winch and a cleat...sounds like double braid is more appropriate? cheers, John S. On 10/27/2016 11:13 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Thanks Dave, Tom also, I now recall seeing this somewhere in the MSOG site or the like, in notes from Jerry.
Is there an "official" recommendation for knot to tie off? Sounds like the figure eight hitch is working for at least one of us. There's lotsa knots in the world...and I see at least one project on MSOG site where a shackle & eye splice was used.
And 5/16 was maybe based on line available in "the early years"? We've got stuff now half that size and twice as strong. Keith, didn't you post a while back you were using 5 mm something for pennant? And David has 6 mm.
How do those single braid (or other braid) small lines do at getting enough friction on the winch when raising the CB?
cheers, John S.
On 10/27/2016 11:45 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
here is Jerry's recommendation for the cast iron board pennant line -
The line used to raise and lower the CB is 5/16... The trick is to cut away about 4" of the internal core and use that part to tie off at the CenterBoard, making the knot small enough to fit properly in the CB Trunk.
:: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - http://www.m17-375.webs.com :: Sage 17 #1 - AIR BORN - http://sagemarine.us/sage_17.html :: Sage 15 sloop #001 - ASOLARE - http://sagemarine.us/sage_15.html :: SageCat #000 - SAGECAT - http://sagemarine.us/sagecat.html
On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 11:52 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
PS - this is a pennant for the heavy cast iron keel version M17! Not the lightweight newer one. In case I wasn't clear...
thanks, John S.
On 10/27/2016 10:49 AM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Thanks all for the feedback on this.
I expect I'll find a bulky knot in the fat pennant line when I lower the board...I'd be happy to just get it down to half an inch. As it is, with the trailer I have, the rear roller is behind the keel/CB when the boat is fully on the trailer. In shallow launching situations where the stern isn't deep enough to float off the bunks, the CB protrudes enough to catch on the roller and stop the boat sliding back off the bunks.
What is recommended or best options for pennant line replacement? It has some kind of one-color double braid on it now, pretty fat, 3/8 I would guess without going and measuring it.
Definitely interested in knots & usage. Not a lot of major references to the figure eight hitch, but I found a few. I know the "regular" figure eight well from climbing/mountaineering but hadn't heard of the hitch version. One video on figure eight hitch says "for light duty" and "not the most secure knot" but obviously it's worked for you David. It would be under tension all the time if used for the CB so in that case I think it would be pretty secure. If alternately slack and tight, I can see how it could slowly loosen itself in some situations.
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Yeah in thinking about it it may actually be 6mm.. But the outer cover is not dynema (only the inner core is) and has reasonable friction coefficient... Given it's smaller diameter I need quite a few wraps on the winch but it works okay.. It wasn't really a deliberate selection just something I had left over in the shop from rigging on another boat.. Keith R. Martin, P.Eng Serenity, Hull #353 On Oct 27, 2016 11:27 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
PS on this - APS site info page on lines says, re Vectran & Dyneema/Spectra single braid:
"When winching or cleating either material, a cover is required to provide grip, bulk and protection." Other line info sources say similar.
The CB involves both a winch and a cleat...sounds like double braid is more appropriate?
cheers, John S.
On 10/27/2016 11:13 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Thanks Dave, Tom also, I now recall seeing this somewhere in the MSOG site or the like, in notes from Jerry.
Is there an "official" recommendation for knot to tie off? Sounds like the figure eight hitch is working for at least one of us. There's lotsa knots in the world...and I see at least one project on MSOG site where a shackle & eye splice was used.
And 5/16 was maybe based on line available in "the early years"? We've got stuff now half that size and twice as strong. Keith, didn't you post a while back you were using 5 mm something for pennant? And David has 6 mm.
How do those single braid (or other braid) small lines do at getting enough friction on the winch when raising the CB?
cheers, John S.
On 10/27/2016 11:45 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
here is Jerry's recommendation for the cast iron board pennant line -
The line used to raise and lower the CB is 5/16... The trick is to cut away about 4" of the internal core and use that part to tie off at the CenterBoard, making the knot small enough to fit properly in the CB Trunk.
:: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - http://www.m17-375.webs.com :: Sage 17 #1 - AIR BORN - http://sagemarine.us/sage_17.html :: Sage 15 sloop #001 - ASOLARE - http://sagemarine.us/sage_15.html :: SageCat #000 - SAGECAT - http://sagemarine.us/sagecat.html
On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 11:52 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
PS - this is a pennant for the heavy cast iron keel version M17!
Not the lightweight newer one. In case I wasn't clear...
thanks, John S.
On 10/27/2016 10:49 AM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Thanks all for the feedback on this.
I expect I'll find a bulky knot in the fat pennant line when I lower the board...I'd be happy to just get it down to half an inch. As it is, with the trailer I have, the rear roller is behind the keel/CB when the boat is fully on the trailer. In shallow launching situations where the stern isn't deep enough to float off the bunks, the CB protrudes enough to catch on the roller and stop the boat sliding back off the bunks.
What is recommended or best options for pennant line replacement? It has some kind of one-color double braid on it now, pretty fat, 3/8 I would guess without going and measuring it.
Definitely interested in knots & usage. Not a lot of major references to the figure eight hitch, but I found a few. I know the "regular" figure eight well from climbing/mountaineering but hadn't heard of the hitch version. One video on figure eight hitch says "for light duty" and "not the most secure knot" but obviously it's worked for you David. It would be under tension all the time if used for the CB so in that case I think it would be pretty secure. If alternately slack and tight, I can see how it could slowly loosen itself in some situations.
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
OK, thanks... And that means you have a double braid, not single. And it's a "core dependent" double braid, meaning the strength is all in the core and the cover is just protection and friction. So - having now done a bit of basic research on 'traditional' vs. 'high-tech modern' line - the original advice on cutting core out of 5/16" for pennant knot should NOT be applied to core-dependent line! Only to polyester double-braid where core and cover share the strength. cheers, John S. On 10/27/2016 11:35 PM, Keith R. Martin wrote:
Yeah in thinking about it it may actually be 6mm.. But the outer cover is not dynema (only the inner core is) and has reasonable friction coefficient... Given it's smaller diameter I need quite a few wraps on the winch but it works okay.. It wasn't really a deliberate selection just something I had left over in the shop from rigging on another boat..
Keith R. Martin, P.Eng Serenity, Hull #353
On Oct 27, 2016 11:27 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
PS on this - APS site info page on lines says, re Vectran & Dyneema/Spectra single braid:
"When winching or cleating either material, a cover is required to provide grip, bulk and protection." Other line info sources say similar.
The CB involves both a winch and a cleat...sounds like double braid is more appropriate?
cheers, John S.
On 10/27/2016 11:13 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Thanks Dave, Tom also, I now recall seeing this somewhere in the MSOG site or the like, in notes from Jerry.
Is there an "official" recommendation for knot to tie off? Sounds like the figure eight hitch is working for at least one of us. There's lotsa knots in the world...and I see at least one project on MSOG site where a shackle & eye splice was used.
And 5/16 was maybe based on line available in "the early years"? We've got stuff now half that size and twice as strong. Keith, didn't you post a while back you were using 5 mm something for pennant? And David has 6 mm.
How do those single braid (or other braid) small lines do at getting enough friction on the winch when raising the CB?
cheers, John S.
On 10/27/2016 11:45 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
here is Jerry's recommendation for the cast iron board pennant line -
The line used to raise and lower the CB is 5/16... The trick is to cut away about 4" of the internal core and use that part to tie off at the CenterBoard, making the knot small enough to fit properly in the CB Trunk.
:: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - http://www.m17-375.webs.com :: Sage 17 #1 - AIR BORN - http://sagemarine.us/sage_17.html :: Sage 15 sloop #001 - ASOLARE - http://sagemarine.us/sage_15.html :: SageCat #000 - SAGECAT - http://sagemarine.us/sagecat.html
On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 11:52 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
PS - this is a pennant for the heavy cast iron keel version M17!
Not the lightweight newer one. In case I wasn't clear...
thanks, John S.
On 10/27/2016 10:49 AM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Thanks all for the feedback on this.
I expect I'll find a bulky knot in the fat pennant line when I lower the board...I'd be happy to just get it down to half an inch. As it is, with the trailer I have, the rear roller is behind the keel/CB when the boat is fully on the trailer. In shallow launching situations where the stern isn't deep enough to float off the bunks, the CB protrudes enough to catch on the roller and stop the boat sliding back off the bunks.
What is recommended or best options for pennant line replacement? It has some kind of one-color double braid on it now, pretty fat, 3/8 I would guess without going and measuring it.
Definitely interested in knots & usage. Not a lot of major references to the figure eight hitch, but I found a few. I know the "regular" figure eight well from climbing/mountaineering but hadn't heard of the hitch version. One video on figure eight hitch says "for light duty" and "not the most secure knot" but obviously it's worked for you David. It would be under tension all the time if used for the CB so in that case I think it would be pretty secure. If alternately slack and tight, I can see how it could slowly loosen itself in some situations.
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Yup for sure no trimming .. The 6mm line bowline was not a problem from a size perspective. Keith R. Martin, P.Eng Serenity, Hull #353 On Oct 27, 2016 11:41 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
OK, thanks... And that means you have a double braid, not single. And it's a "core dependent" double braid, meaning the strength is all in the core and the cover is just protection and friction.
So - having now done a bit of basic research on 'traditional' vs. 'high-tech modern' line - the original advice on cutting core out of 5/16" for pennant knot should NOT be applied to core-dependent line! Only to polyester double-braid where core and cover share the strength.
cheers, John S.
On 10/27/2016 11:35 PM, Keith R. Martin wrote:
Yeah in thinking about it it may actually be 6mm.. But the outer cover is not dynema (only the inner core is) and has reasonable friction coefficient... Given it's smaller diameter I need quite a few wraps on the winch but it works okay.. It wasn't really a deliberate selection just something I had left over in the shop from rigging on another boat..
Keith R. Martin, P.Eng Serenity, Hull #353
On Oct 27, 2016 11:27 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
PS on this - APS site info page on lines says, re Vectran &
Dyneema/Spectra single braid:
"When winching or cleating either material, a cover is required to provide grip, bulk and protection." Other line info sources say similar.
The CB involves both a winch and a cleat...sounds like double braid is more appropriate?
cheers, John S.
On 10/27/2016 11:13 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Thanks Dave, Tom also, I now recall seeing this somewhere in the MSOG
site or the like, in notes from Jerry.
Is there an "official" recommendation for knot to tie off? Sounds like the figure eight hitch is working for at least one of us. There's lotsa knots in the world...and I see at least one project on MSOG site where a shackle & eye splice was used.
And 5/16 was maybe based on line available in "the early years"? We've got stuff now half that size and twice as strong. Keith, didn't you post a while back you were using 5 mm something for pennant? And David has 6 mm.
How do those single braid (or other braid) small lines do at getting enough friction on the winch when raising the CB?
cheers, John S.
On 10/27/2016 11:45 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
here is Jerry's recommendation for the cast iron board pennant line -
The line used to raise and lower the CB is 5/16... The trick is to cut away about 4" of the internal core and use that part to tie off at the CenterBoard, making the knot small enough to fit properly in the CB Trunk.
:: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - http://www.m17-375.webs.com :: Sage 17 #1 - AIR BORN - http://sagemarine.us/sage_17.html :: Sage 15 sloop #001 - ASOLARE - http://sagemarine.us/sage_15.html :: SageCat #000 - SAGECAT - http://sagemarine.us/sagecat.html
On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 11:52 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net
wrote:
PS - this is a pennant for the heavy cast iron keel version M17!
Not the lightweight newer one. In case I wasn't clear...
thanks, John S.
On 10/27/2016 10:49 AM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Thanks all for the feedback on this.
> > I expect I'll find a bulky knot in the fat pennant line when I lower > the > board...I'd be happy to just get it down to half an inch. > As it is, with the trailer I have, the rear roller is behind the > keel/CB > when the boat is fully on the trailer. In shallow launching > situations > where the stern isn't deep enough to float off the bunks, the CB > protrudes enough to catch on the roller and stop the boat sliding > back > off the bunks. > > What is recommended or best options for pennant line replacement? It > has > some kind of one-color double braid on it now, pretty fat, 3/8 I > would > guess without going and measuring it. > > Definitely interested in knots & usage. Not a lot of major > references to > the figure eight hitch, but I found a few. I know the "regular" > figure > eight well from climbing/mountaineering but hadn't heard of the hitch > version. > One video on figure eight hitch says "for light duty" and "not the > most > secure knot" but obviously it's worked for you David. It would be > under > tension all the time if used for the CB so in that case I think it > would > be pretty secure. If alternately slack and tight, I can see how it > could > slowly loosen itself in some situations. > > cheers, > John S. > > >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Glad you passed that bit of info along, John, about the core is strength, cover is friction and protection. Tom B On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 1:40 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
OK, thanks... And that means you have a double braid, not single. And it's a "core dependent" double braid, meaning the strength is all in the core and the cover is just protection and friction.
So - having now done a bit of basic research on 'traditional' vs. 'high-tech modern' line - the original advice on cutting core out of 5/16" for pennant knot should NOT be applied to core-dependent line! Only to polyester double-braid where core and cover share the strength.
cheers, John S.
On 10/27/2016 11:35 PM, Keith R. Martin wrote:
Yeah in thinking about it it may actually be 6mm.. But the outer cover is not dynema (only the inner core is) and has reasonable friction coefficient... Given it's smaller diameter I need quite a few wraps on the winch but it works okay.. It wasn't really a deliberate selection just something I had left over in the shop from rigging on another boat..
Keith R. Martin, P.Eng Serenity, Hull #353
On Oct 27, 2016 11:27 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
PS on this - APS site info page on lines says, re Vectran &
Dyneema/Spectra single braid:
"When winching or cleating either material, a cover is required to provide grip, bulk and protection." Other line info sources say similar.
The CB involves both a winch and a cleat...sounds like double braid is more appropriate?
cheers, John S.
On 10/27/2016 11:13 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Thanks Dave, Tom also, I now recall seeing this somewhere in the MSOG
site or the like, in notes from Jerry.
Is there an "official" recommendation for knot to tie off? Sounds like the figure eight hitch is working for at least one of us. There's lotsa knots in the world...and I see at least one project on MSOG site where a shackle & eye splice was used.
And 5/16 was maybe based on line available in "the early years"? We've got stuff now half that size and twice as strong. Keith, didn't you post a while back you were using 5 mm something for pennant? And David has 6 mm.
How do those single braid (or other braid) small lines do at getting enough friction on the winch when raising the CB?
cheers, John S.
On 10/27/2016 11:45 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
here is Jerry's recommendation for the cast iron board pennant line -
The line used to raise and lower the CB is 5/16... The trick is to cut away about 4" of the internal core and use that part to tie off at the CenterBoard, making the knot small enough to fit properly in the CB Trunk.
:: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - http://www.m17-375.webs.com :: Sage 17 #1 - AIR BORN - http://sagemarine.us/sage_17.html :: Sage 15 sloop #001 - ASOLARE - http://sagemarine.us/sage_15.html :: SageCat #000 - SAGECAT - http://sagemarine.us/sagecat.html
On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 11:52 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net
wrote:
PS - this is a pennant for the heavy cast iron keel version M17!
Not the lightweight newer one. In case I wasn't clear...
thanks, John S.
On 10/27/2016 10:49 AM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Thanks all for the feedback on this.
> > I expect I'll find a bulky knot in the fat pennant line when I lower > the > board...I'd be happy to just get it down to half an inch. > As it is, with the trailer I have, the rear roller is behind the > keel/CB > when the boat is fully on the trailer. In shallow launching > situations > where the stern isn't deep enough to float off the bunks, the CB > protrudes enough to catch on the roller and stop the boat sliding > back > off the bunks. > > What is recommended or best options for pennant line replacement? It > has > some kind of one-color double braid on it now, pretty fat, 3/8 I > would > guess without going and measuring it. > > Definitely interested in knots & usage. Not a lot of major > references to > the figure eight hitch, but I found a few. I know the "regular" > figure > eight well from climbing/mountaineering but hadn't heard of the hitch > version. > One video on figure eight hitch says "for light duty" and "not the > most > secure knot" but obviously it's worked for you David. It would be > under > tension all the time if used for the CB so in that case I think it > would > be pretty secure. If alternately slack and tight, I can see how it > could > slowly loosen itself in some situations. > > cheers, > John S. > > >
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
A fig 8 is fine. I'd use 5/16, mainly for ease of handling, incl the number of wraps on the winch. Std double braid in fine. The only flaw in this system is when people bounce down the road with the board hanging from the pennant rather than lowering it to the rollers. -----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2016 11:13 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: CB retraction on M17 Thanks Dave, Tom also, I now recall seeing this somewhere in the MSOG site or the like, in notes from Jerry. Is there an "official" recommendation for knot to tie off? Sounds like the figure eight hitch is working for at least one of us. There's lotsa knots in the world...and I see at least one project on MSOG site where a shackle & eye splice was used. And 5/16 was maybe based on line available in "the early years"? We've got stuff now half that size and twice as strong. Keith, didn't you post a while back you were using 5 mm something for pennant? And David has 6 mm. How do those single braid (or other braid) small lines do at getting enough friction on the winch when raising the CB? cheers, John S. On 10/27/2016 11:45 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
here is Jerry's recommendation for the cast iron board pennant line -
The line used to raise and lower the CB is 5/16... The trick is to cut away about 4" of the internal core and use that part to tie off at the CenterBoard, making the knot small enough to fit properly in the CB Trunk.
:: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - http://www.m17-375.webs.com :: Sage 17 #1 - AIR BORN - http://sagemarine.us/sage_17.html :: Sage 15 sloop #001 - ASOLARE - http://sagemarine.us/sage_15.html :: SageCat #000 - SAGECAT - http://sagemarine.us/sagecat.html
On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 11:52 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
PS - this is a pennant for the heavy cast iron keel version M17! Not the lightweight newer one. In case I wasn't clear...
thanks, John S.
On 10/27/2016 10:49 AM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Thanks all for the feedback on this.
I expect I'll find a bulky knot in the fat pennant line when I lower the board...I'd be happy to just get it down to half an inch. As it is, with the trailer I have, the rear roller is behind the keel/CB when the boat is fully on the trailer. In shallow launching situations where the stern isn't deep enough to float off the bunks, the CB protrudes enough to catch on the roller and stop the boat sliding back off the bunks.
What is recommended or best options for pennant line replacement? It has some kind of one-color double braid on it now, pretty fat, 3/8 I would guess without going and measuring it.
Definitely interested in knots & usage. Not a lot of major references to the figure eight hitch, but I found a few. I know the "regular" figure eight well from climbing/mountaineering but hadn't heard of the hitch version. One video on figure eight hitch says "for light duty" and "not the most secure knot" but obviously it's worked for you David. It would be under tension all the time if used for the CB so in that case I think it would be pretty secure. If alternately slack and tight, I can see how it could slowly loosen itself in some situations.
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 14757 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen
One other thing for nobody’s interest. I think that when the boat rests on the centerboard on the trailer that it essentially hangs from the roof of the centerboard trunk, and this may have something to do with the fragility of the keel-trunk seam, putting it in tension when it’s otherwise in compression. (Or did I say this already?)
It would seem that since the trunk rests on the inside of the hull that any weight suspended inside of the cb trunk would of necessity put the joint between the cb trunk and hull under compression. On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 2:49 PM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
One other thing for nobody’s interest. I think that when the boat rests on the centerboard on the trailer that it essentially hangs from the roof of the centerboard trunk, and this may have something to do with the fragility of the keel-trunk seam, putting it in tension when it’s otherwise in compression. (Or did I say this already?)
Thanks Jerry, David, Tom, et al for the info & thoughts. There's definitely some force on the CB/Hull connection if the CB is doing something other than resting just its own weight on bunk or roller on trailer. In my case I'm concerned it may be pushing up against top of trunk, if the roller is too high/hull bunks too low And makes sense, as Jerry says, if it's hanging on pennant while on trailer, then it's yanking on whatever the pennant is fast to. One is compression, other is tension, neither what it was designed for so neither probably good in the long run. cheers, John S. On 10/28/2016 01:26 PM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
It would seem that since the trunk rests on the inside of the hull that any weight suspended inside of the cb trunk would of necessity put the joint between the cb trunk and hull under compression.
On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 2:49 PM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
One other thing for nobody’s interest. I think that when the boat rests on the centerboard on the trailer that it essentially hangs from the roof of the centerboard trunk, and this may have something to do with the fragility of the keel-trunk seam, putting it in tension when it’s otherwise in compression. (Or did I say this already?)
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I can't see a problem with the board bearing on the top of the trunk- there's a lot of glass there, and the load is really spread out. I wouldn't worry about it. -----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 3:05 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: CB retraction on M17 Thanks Jerry, David, Tom, et al for the info & thoughts. There's definitely some force on the CB/Hull connection if the CB is doing something other than resting just its own weight on bunk or roller on trailer. In my case I'm concerned it may be pushing up against top of trunk, if the roller is too high/hull bunks too low And makes sense, as Jerry says, if it's hanging on pennant while on trailer, then it's yanking on whatever the pennant is fast to. One is compression, other is tension, neither what it was designed for so neither probably good in the long run. cheers, John S. On 10/28/2016 01:26 PM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
It would seem that since the trunk rests on the inside of the hull that any weight suspended inside of the cb trunk would of necessity put the joint between the cb trunk and hull under compression.
On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 2:49 PM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
One other thing for nobody’s interest. I think that when the boat rests on the centerboard on the trailer that it essentially hangs from the roof of the centerboard trunk, and this may have something to do with the fragility of the keel-trunk seam, putting it in tension when it’s otherwise in compression. (Or did I say this already?)
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 14864 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen
Once on the trailer, if you have a keel bunkboard you just slack off the cb pennant and the whole board weight is on the bunkboard. You just have to remember before launch to tighten the cb pennant! On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 5:05 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks Jerry, David, Tom, et al for the info & thoughts.
There's definitely some force on the CB/Hull connection if the CB is doing something other than resting just its own weight on bunk or roller on trailer.
In my case I'm concerned it may be pushing up against top of trunk, if the roller is too high/hull bunks too low
And makes sense, as Jerry says, if it's hanging on pennant while on trailer, then it's yanking on whatever the pennant is fast to.
One is compression, other is tension, neither what it was designed for so neither probably good in the long run.
cheers, John S.
On 10/28/2016 01:26 PM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
It would seem that since the trunk rests on the inside of the hull that any weight suspended inside of the cb trunk would of necessity put the joint between the cb trunk and hull under compression.
On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 2:49 PM, David Rifkind <drifkind@acm.org> wrote:
One other thing for nobody’s interest. I think that when the boat rests on
the centerboard on the trailer that it essentially hangs from the roof of the centerboard trunk, and this may have something to do with the fragility of the keel-trunk seam, putting it in tension when it’s otherwise in compression. (Or did I say this already?)
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Jerry recommends cutting the core of some 5/16 inch line back about 5" so you have just the outer part of the line to make a smaller know out of. Being a "belt and suspenders" man from way back I preferred to make room at the top of the cb housing for a full line knot. I added a pvc cap on top with a small hole in it to allow egress of the cb pennant and plenty of room for a knot. The thought of a 180# hatchet having a go at my keel stop bolt gives me the shakes. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of ...you know what. Tom B On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 12:49 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks all for the feedback on this.
I expect I'll find a bulky knot in the fat pennant line when I lower the board...I'd be happy to just get it down to half an inch. As it is, with the trailer I have, the rear roller is behind the keel/CB when the boat is fully on the trailer. In shallow launching situations where the stern isn't deep enough to float off the bunks, the CB protrudes enough to catch on the roller and stop the boat sliding back off the bunks.
What is recommended or best options for pennant line replacement? It has some kind of one-color double braid on it now, pretty fat, 3/8 I would guess without going and measuring it.
Definitely interested in knots & usage. Not a lot of major references to the figure eight hitch, but I found a few. I know the "regular" figure eight well from climbing/mountaineering but hadn't heard of the hitch version. One video on figure eight hitch says "for light duty" and "not the most secure knot" but obviously it's worked for you David. It would be under tension all the time if used for the CB so in that case I think it would be pretty secure. If alternately slack and tight, I can see how it could slowly loosen itself in some situations.
cheers, John S.
On 10/26/2016 09:14 PM, David Rifkind wrote:
On Oct 26, 2016, at 8:59 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
...speaking of keels and bunks and rollers, a question on the M17 centerboard. This is a '74 so it's the heavy cast iron CB.
When fully up, should it be flush with the bottom of the keel? Mine will not go up quite that far. The rear end protrudes about 1 to 1 1/2 inches.
I think it is because there is a rather thick pennant line, and I don't know what knot or fastening setup was used but I'm guessing the knot is long/fat, bulky, double, etc. - in short, taking up space that leaves the CB hanging out that inch-plus.
I can see the top of the pennant knot hard against the underside of the pennant hole in the CB trunk - it is as far up as it can go.
At some point this winter I hope to get the boat situated so I can lower the board down and see what's up and maybe improve the situation.
But should I expect to be able to get the CB up flush with the trunk?
Mine does too. Not an inch and a half, not even half an inch, but it’s not flush and on the rollers the centerboard makes contact and not the keel. And there’s a small gap at the joint that I epoxied, so probably a little more protruded before it sprang.
My pendant is very thin (6mm single-braid Vectran) and I put some work into figuring out the smallest secure knot (a figure-eight hitch, if you care) so I don’t think there’s much wasted space in there.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
On Oct 27, 2016, at 10:49 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks all for the feedback on this.
I expect I'll find a bulky knot in the fat pennant line when I lower the board...I'd be happy to just get it down to half an inch. As it is, with the trailer I have, the rear roller is behind the keel/CB when the boat is fully on the trailer. In shallow launching situations where the stern isn't deep enough to float off the bunks, the CB protrudes enough to catch on the roller and stop the boat sliding back off the bunks.
What is recommended or best options for pennant line replacement? It has some kind of one-color double braid on it now, pretty fat, 3/8 I would guess without going and measuring it.
Definitely interested in knots & usage. Not a lot of major references to the figure eight hitch, but I found a few. I know the "regular" figure eight well from climbing/mountaineering but hadn't heard of the hitch version. One video on figure eight hitch says "for light duty" and "not the most secure knot" but obviously it's worked for you David. It would be under tension all the time if used for the CB so in that case I think it would be pretty secure. If alternately slack and tight, I can see how it could slowly loosen itself in some situations.
It works for me particularly because Vectran holds a knot so well. I am not sure I would recommend it with any other line, although the original pendant probably had something like it—it was jammed so hard that I just cut it off. I thought that V-12 Vectran sounded like just the thing so i bought ten feet of it before I started work—enough extra to do some experimenting. Then I found out I couldn’t cut the @#$%% stuff. I used the suggestion seen elsewhere of 5/16 double braid with the core removed but didn’t like the stretchy, spongy feeling. Then I learned how to cut Vectran, played with it a bit, and settled on that. It’s remarkable stuff. Absolutely no stretch or creep, holds knots beautifully. Looks and feels a lot like cheap drugstore twine. If you’d like some entertainment, hand someone a piece and some scissors and ask them to cut it.
On Oct 27, 2016, at 10:49 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks all for the feedback on this.
I expect I'll find a bulky knot in the fat pennant line when I lower the board...I'd be happy to just get it down to half an inch. As it is, with the trailer I have, the rear roller is behind the keel/CB when the boat is fully on the trailer. In shallow launching situations where the stern isn't deep enough to float off the bunks, the CB protrudes enough to catch on the roller and stop the boat sliding back off the bunks.
One other thing I noticed is that the shackle on the centerboard seemed unnecessarily long. I assume it’s what was available, but if it were half as long everything would fit better. If I were a real machinist (instead of not a machinist at all) I’d make myself a little winch to fit that spot and use just the right length of wire cable, threaded directly through the centerboard with no shackle.
Yup. The centerboard will go entirely into the trunk when the knot situation is taken care of. I enlarged the hole where the pennant comes out of the centerboard well and fiberglassed a 1 1/2 inch pvc coupling over the hole. Now there is room for a decent knot to be tied which can then be drawn up into the newly added sleeve with the cb now flush with the bottom of the hull. Fair winds, Tom B On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 10:59 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
...speaking of keels and bunks and rollers, a question on the M17 centerboard. This is a '74 so it's the heavy cast iron CB.
When fully up, should it be flush with the bottom of the keel? Mine will not go up quite that far. The rear end protrudes about 1 to 1 1/2 inches.
I think it is because there is a rather thick pennant line, and I don't know what knot or fastening setup was used but I'm guessing the knot is long/fat, bulky, double, etc. - in short, taking up space that leaves the CB hanging out that inch-plus.
I can see the top of the pennant knot hard against the underside of the pennant hole in the CB trunk - it is as far up as it can go.
At some point this winter I hope to get the boat situated so I can lower the board down and see what's up and maybe improve the situation.
But should I expect to be able to get the CB up flush with the trunk?
thanks, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I got straight up out of the trunk to a block, then over to a cleat on the side. Works great. Jazz On Oct 26, 2016 9:19 PM, "Thomas Buzzi" <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Yup. The centerboard will go entirely into the trunk when the knot situation is taken care of. I enlarged the hole where the pennant comes out of the centerboard well and fiberglassed a 1 1/2 inch pvc coupling over the hole. Now there is room for a decent knot to be tied which can then be drawn up into the newly added sleeve with the cb now flush with the bottom of the hull. Fair winds, Tom B
On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 10:59 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
...speaking of keels and bunks and rollers, a question on the M17 centerboard. This is a '74 so it's the heavy cast iron CB.
When fully up, should it be flush with the bottom of the keel? Mine will not go up quite that far. The rear end protrudes about 1 to 1 1/2 inches.
I think it is because there is a rather thick pennant line, and I don't know what knot or fastening setup was used but I'm guessing the knot is long/fat, bulky, double, etc. - in short, taking up space that leaves the CB hanging out that inch-plus.
I can see the top of the pennant knot hard against the underside of the pennant hole in the CB trunk - it is as far up as it can go.
At some point this winter I hope to get the boat situated so I can lower the board down and see what's up and maybe improve the situation.
But should I expect to be able to get the CB up flush with the trunk?
thanks, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
My bad, I looked at the 1985 Trail Rite trailer upon which my M-15 of the same vintage sets in winter reposed. The trailer does indeed have two rollers under the keep, but it appears the weight of the boat is supported by the bunkers. Is that that way it is supposed to be? Steve M-15 # 335 -----Original Message----- From: Steve Trapp Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 8:11 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Trailer Set Up My 1985 vintage Trail-Rite trailer that was the original trailer from the dealer when I bought my 1985 M-15 (#335) has a keel bunk, but I do not think it has any rollers. I will double check within the next day or two when I go by the marina. Steve M-15 # 335 -----Original Message----- From: Dave Scobie Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 7:54 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Trailer Set Up George: the Trail-Rite trailers have two rollers: one at the rear frame and one about the middle of the keel (front to back) on the middle trailer frame crossbeam. i looked for some pictures of my old M15's trailer and couldn't quickly find them ... i can look some more if you like. the Pacific trailers have a keel bunk. pictures of this setup can be taken if you like as the Glesser's M15 sits on a Pacific trailer. :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - http://www.m17-375.webs.com :: Sage 17 #1 - AIR BORN - http://sagemarine.us/sage_17.html :: Sage 15 sloop #001 - ASOLARE - http://sagemarine.us/sage_15.html :: SageCat #000 - SAGECAT - http://sagemarine.us/sagecat.html On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 8:29 PM, George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com> wrote:
I have had problems retrieving the Boat on the trailer of not getting on the rollers for proper support. I have bunks and 3 rollers for keel support along with a Keel guidance system copied from one of the MON articles.
On my previous boat a Person 23CB I had a bunk that supported the keel. What is common on Montgomery trailer set ups? Has anyone had experience converting a M15 trailer to a keel bunk support?
Pros,Cons
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
Better if most of the weight is supported by the rollers right along the keel line and balanced by the bunkboards. That makes launching and retrieving easier. On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 5:44 PM, Steve Trapp <stevetrapp@q.com> wrote:
My bad, I looked at the 1985 Trail Rite trailer upon which my M-15 of the same vintage sets in winter reposed. The trailer does indeed have two rollers under the keep, but it appears the weight of the boat is supported by the bunkers. Is that that way it is supposed to be? Steve M-15 # 335
-----Original Message----- From: Steve Trapp Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 8:11 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Trailer Set Up
My 1985 vintage Trail-Rite trailer that was the original trailer from the dealer when I bought my 1985 M-15 (#335) has a keel bunk, but I do not think it has any rollers. I will double check within the next day or two when I go by the marina. Steve M-15 # 335
-----Original Message----- From: Dave Scobie Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 7:54 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Trailer Set Up
George:
the Trail-Rite trailers have two rollers: one at the rear frame and one about the middle of the keel (front to back) on the middle trailer frame crossbeam. i looked for some pictures of my old M15's trailer and couldn't quickly find them ... i can look some more if you like.
the Pacific trailers have a keel bunk. pictures of this setup can be taken if you like as the Glesser's M15 sits on a Pacific trailer.
:: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - http://www.m17-375.webs.com :: Sage 17 #1 - AIR BORN - http://sagemarine.us/sage_17.html :: Sage 15 sloop #001 - ASOLARE - http://sagemarine.us/sage_15.html :: SageCat #000 - SAGECAT - http://sagemarine.us/sagecat.html
On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 8:29 PM, George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com> wrote:
I have had problems retrieving the Boat on the trailer of not getting on
the rollers for proper support. I have bunks and 3 rollers for keel support along with a Keel guidance system copied from one of the MON articles.
On my previous boat a Person 23CB I had a bunk that supported the keel. What is common on Montgomery trailer set ups? Has anyone had experience converting a M15 trailer to a keel bunk support?
Pros,Cons
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
participants (9)
-
Dave Scobie -
David Rifkind -
George Iemmolo -
Jazzy -
jerry＠jerrymontgomery.org -
John Schinnerer -
Keith R. Martin -
Steve Trapp -
Thomas Buzzi