Re: M_Boats: montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 181, Issue 10
I too have a newer (2 seasons) set of H P sails. I like the options that 2 reef points allow. Full main and big jib, 1 reef and big jib, 2 reef and big jib, full main and working jib, 1 reef and working jib, 2 reef and working jib. And if it really blows I have a smaller jib. Many combinations allow for a great deal of messing about, and finding out how the boat behaves with all those combinations. Monty 17 Ol'44 Jon Barber Modesto On Tue, Mar 20, 2018, 11:01 AM < montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Mainsail (John Schinnerer) 2. Re: Mainsail (John Schinnerer) 3. Re: Mainsail (Howard Audsley) 4. Re: Mainsail (jerry@jerrymontgomery.org) 5. Re: Mainsail (John Schinnerer) 6. Re: Mainsail (Gary Oberbeck) 7. Re: Mainsail (bownez@juno.com) 8. Re: Mainsail (bownez@juno.com) 9. Re: Mainsail (Thomas Buzzi) 10. Re: Mainsail (Thomas Buzzi) 11. Re: Mainsail (Dave Scobie) 12. Re: Mainsail (Dan Farrell) 13. Re: Mainsail (Bob Eeg) 14. Re: Mainsail (Keith R. Martin)
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Message: 1 Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 09:50:39 -1000 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Message-ID: <35fb6dc9-62e3-a19c-3c6a-517e6ac934c4@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
My 1974 M-17 came with a "newer" mainsail (meaning newer than the original, which I also have) from North Sails. It seems very well built, seems to set well, has two reefs plus what someone here identified as a smaller "flattening reef." And, it also has a problem with top batten hitting backstay just a bit (it's not a full length batten FWIW).
When I asked about recommendations for the new furling jib I'm getting, Jerry said Elliot-Patterson, several people said Judy B Sails, and there were one or two other custom makers suggested that I've forgotten but they'd be in the list archives...
cheers, John
On 03/18/2018 04:43 PM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Mr. Bones, I cannot remember her name but several people recommended her work for a mainsail for my 1977 M17. The sail did not fit.The roach was cut too full at the full length top batten. I sent it back to her, she was very pleasant throughout the whole thing. I waited a couple of weeks because she had to send it back to the Far East, Taiwan, maybe to have it altered. When it returned the full length top batten would not clear the backstay so I took it out. The roach near the head riffles past the backstay when I come about. I cannot say I am pleased with the set of the main. It looks rather like a dishtowel draped across a clothesline. Again, she was very pleasant throughout the whole business but she did not seem to be able to create a good mainsail for my 17. Perhaps the rig, being a 1977, was not easy for her to deal with. I would definitely use a sailloft that works in this country. I think going with what Jerry suggests is going to be your best bet at getting a good setting and working main. Good luck Tom B
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On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 11:08 AM, bownez@juno.com <bownez@juno.com> wrote:
Listers,
Looking at ordering a new mainsail for my 1976 vintage M17. The last one I had made did not fit quite right, and I muddled through with it.
Does anyone (Jerry?) have the stock dimensions? The original spec sheet says it is 77 sq. ft in size.
I'm looking at:
loose footed luff cars 2 reef points full batten on top
Thoughts?
Many thanks
Mr. Bones ____________________________________________________________ The Unusual Link Between Alzheimer's and Coconut Oil (Watch) Memory Repair Protocol http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5aae8f4f8a338f4f4695st04vuc
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 09:58:08 -1000 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Message-ID: <a3167e6c-b816-d677-36b2-89ef51510638@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
My #38 came with that same ~80% jib by Reggie Armstrong. It is old and soft and stretched but it still works pretty darn good in strong gusty wind. I also got what I think must be the original 150 genoa by RA. Also old but still works really well in light air.
I don't know what I have for the original main, I'll take a look sometime - maybe it is also an original RA main...
cheers, John
On 03/19/2018 05:29 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
jib??about an 80%
seems to be small for the M17 working jib ... a sail that size would be in the 'large storm jib' size. the usual working jib for the M17 is about 110%.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/ < http://www.m17-375.webs.com> :: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/ :: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/ :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred
On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 7:14 AM, Howard Audsley < haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
My M17 #278 also came to me with a Reggie Armstrong main and matching jib??about an 80% or so. The two of them combined had some magic voodoo that I?ve never been able to duplicate. Like getting her up on plane doing 6 knots plus going to weather in enough wind to have some nice whitecaps??.and heeled over no more than 15 to 20 degrees or so. Magic stuff. Similar performance with the same blown out main with 2 reefs and a 60% storm jib in wind blowing 25 knots plus. Just dancing along.
Reggie had his personal demons, but he knew how to build a sail. Or at least he got it right with the one he built for my boat.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 3 Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 15:13:00 -0500 From: Howard Audsley <haudsley@tranquility.net> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Message-ID: <20C214AF-B789-4BD2-885A-8F2935911245@tranquility.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Yes?..the head of that jib topped out about 2 to 4 feet below masthead???.the clew pretty low to the deck but not as far aft as the mast?..maybe a foot or two forward of the mast and just above the deck. Certainly a different shaped jib than my Ullman 60% storm jib, which is a tall thin blade?.or my 110% which goes all the way to the masthead and then some. If not for some substantial mast rake, the luff on the 110% will not tension properly. Moral to the story is the older boats have different specs than the newer ones do.
That plus the Reggie Armstrong working jib and main must have been perfectly matched to each other. Once the wind got up to 10 knots plus, that sail combo went to weather far better than the main and 110% I had made by Kern. Or the same main and 150% Genoa made by EP. Far better.
BTW, as I recall, the boat also came to me with a McKibbin 155% mylar genny??..a great sail until it delaminated. But it too, like the working jib, was a lower aspect sail than most sails built today. But they really worked on this boat.
BTW, I still have the RA sails??blown out as they are. Kept them for their DNA in hopes someday they could be cloned.
On Mar 19, 2018, at 10:29 AM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
jib??about an 80%
seems to be small for the M17 working jib ... a sail that size would be in the 'large storm jib' size. the usual working jib for the M17 is about 110%.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/ < http://www.m17-375.webs.com> :: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/ :: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/ :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred
On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 7:14 AM, Howard Audsley < haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
My M17 #278 also came to me with a Reggie Armstrong main and matching jib??about an 80% or so. The two of them combined had some magic voodoo that I?ve never been able to duplicate. Like getting her up on plane doing 6 knots plus going to weather in enough wind to have some nice whitecaps??.and heeled over no more than 15 to 20 degrees or so. Magic stuff. Similar performance with the same blown out main with 2 reefs and a 60% storm jib in wind blowing 25 knots plus. Just dancing along.
Reggie had his personal demons, but he knew how to build a sail. Or at least he got it right with the one he built for my boat.
------------------------------
Message: 4 Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 14:00:52 -0700 From: <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Message-ID: <38D0E798E980429680086DFADB203994@CH002914> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original
I used to recommend an intermediate jib for buyers in heavy air areas. Sounds like that's what you have. They work really well in 12 or 15 knots and up. Actually, a storm jib is a really useful sail; you don't need heavy air to make it work well. I know that the modern way for racers is a blade, all the way to the masthead, but for normal sailing I far prefer a 3/4 or so sail. I have both an intermediate and a storm for my Sage but haven't used either. Yet. I don't think I've yet reefed it, but do rig reefing lines just in case.
-----Original Message----- From: Howard Audsley Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 1:13 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail
Yes?..the head of that jib topped out about 2 to 4 feet below masthead???.the clew pretty low to the deck but not as far aft as the mast?..maybe a foot or two forward of the mast and just above the deck. Certainly a different shaped jib than my Ullman 60% storm jib, which is a tall thin blade?.or my 110% which goes all the way to the masthead and then some. If not for some substantial mast rake, the luff on the 110% will not tension properly. Moral to the story is the older boats have different specs than the newer ones do.
That plus the Reggie Armstrong working jib and main must have been perfectly matched to each other. Once the wind got up to 10 knots plus, that sail combo went to weather far better than the main and 110% I had made by Kern. Or the same main and 150% Genoa made by EP. Far better.
BTW, as I recall, the boat also came to me with a McKibbin 155% mylar genny??..a great sail until it delaminated. But it too, like the working jib, was a lower aspect sail than most sails built today. But they really worked on this boat.
BTW, I still have the RA sails??blown out as they are. Kept them for their DNA in hopes someday they could be cloned.
On Mar 19, 2018, at 10:29 AM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
jib??about an 80%
seems to be small for the M17 working jib ... a sail that size would be in the 'large storm jib' size. the usual working jib for the M17 is about 110%.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/ < http://www.m17-375.webs.com> :: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/ :: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/ :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred
On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 7:14 AM, Howard Audsley < haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
My M17 #278 also came to me with a Reggie Armstrong main and matching jib??about an 80% or so. The two of them combined had some magic voodoo that I?ve never been able to duplicate. Like getting her up on plane doing 6 knots plus going to weather in enough wind to have some nice whitecaps??.and heeled over no more than 15 to 20 degrees or so. Magic stuff. Similar performance with the same blown out main with 2 reefs and a 60% storm jib in wind blowing 25 knots plus. Just dancing along.
Reggie had his personal demons, but he knew how to build a sail. Or at least he got it right with the one he built for my boat.
------------------------------
Message: 5 Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 12:28:46 -1000 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Message-ID: <3f6f27f3-3c94-d6e1-212f-f74d88cfbf5b@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Sounds like mine too. I can corroborate Jerry's take on this, from using the 80% Reggie Armstrong jib that came with my boat in consistent 12-15, on a lake where there are also consistently gusts above that. I put the first small reef in my main ("flattening reef" someone said it was) and use the 80% and though it is old and tired, it still works well enough for that situation. The few times I've put the first full reef in the main, same jib, it also works well.
If my trim is off, I get too much heeling. But when I occasionally get the trim just right, she really sings.
cheers, John
On 03/19/2018 11:00 AM, jerry@jerrymontgomery.org wrote:
I used to recommend an intermediate jib for buyers in heavy air areas. Sounds like that's what you have.? They work really well in 12 or 15 knots and up.? Actually, a storm jib is a really useful sail; you don't need heavy air to make it work well.? I know that the modern way for racers is a blade, all the way to the masthead, but for normal sailing I far prefer a 3/4 or so sail.? I have both an intermediate and a storm for my Sage but haven't used either.? Yet.? I don't think I've yet reefed it, but do rig reefing lines just in case.
-----Original Message----- From: Howard Audsley Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 1:13 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail
Yes?..the head of that jib topped out about 2 to 4 feet below masthead???.the clew pretty low to the deck but not as far aft as the mast?..maybe a foot or two forward of the mast and just above the deck. Certainly a different shaped jib than my Ullman 60% storm jib, which is a tall thin blade?.or my 110% which goes all the way to the masthead and then some. If not for some substantial mast rake, the luff on the 110% will not tension properly. Moral to the story is the older boats have different specs than the newer ones do.
That plus the Reggie Armstrong working jib and main must have been perfectly matched to each other. Once the wind got up to 10 knots plus, that sail combo went to weather far better than the main and 110% I had made by Kern. Or the same main and 150% Genoa made by EP. Far better.
BTW, as I recall, the boat also came to me with a McKibbin 155% mylar genny??..a great sail until it delaminated. But it too, like the working jib,? was a lower aspect sail than most sails built today. But they really worked on this boat.
BTW, I still have the RA sails??blown out as they are. Kept them for their DNA in hopes someday they could be cloned.
On Mar 19, 2018, at 10:29 AM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
jib??about an 80%
seems to be small for the M17 working jib ... a sail that size would be in the 'large storm jib' size.? the usual working jib for the M17 is about 110%.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/ <http://www.m17-375.webs.com> :: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/ :: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/ :: former M15 owner #288 -? http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred
On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 7:14 AM, Howard Audsley <haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
My M17 #278 also came to me with a Reggie Armstrong main and matching jib??about an 80% or so. The two of them combined had some magic voodoo that I?ve never been able to duplicate. Like getting her up on plane doing 6 knots plus going to weather in enough wind to have some nice whitecaps??.and heeled over no more than 15 to 20 degrees or so. Magic stuff. Similar performance with the same blown out main with 2 reefs and a 60% storm jib in wind blowing 25 knots plus. Just dancing along.
Reggie had his personal demons, but he knew how to build a sail. Or at least he got it right with the one he built for my boat.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 6 Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 23:30:54 -0400 From: Gary Oberbeck <gilasailr@aol.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Message-ID: <1624175b035-c85-7eb@webjas-vae056.srv.aolmail.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Elliot-Pattison probably has more experience than anyone currently making sails for the Montgomery 15/17's - and Jerry is right - Harry makes Jerry look good when they race together. (he is also a nice and knowledgable guy).
FWIW - do you drive on 40 year old,28 year old, okay 15 year old tires? Was your last oil change 40/28/15 years ago? Think about that re. the age of your sails....look good usually means nothing unless you had a sailmaker check them. I guarantee you, if you buy quality sails, it will change the experience when sailing your boat (I have a genoa that I am frequently mesmerized by when staring at it's shape- makes the boat haul a#* too!)
Have Fun, Go Sailing ! Do your baot a favor - and yourself by quality sails! (then roll them up to store them in 'sausage bags' so they stay nice!)
Gary O.
gilasailr@aol.com
-----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Mon, Mar 19, 2018 4:41 pm Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail
My 1974 M-17 came with a "newer" mainsail (meaning newer than the original, which I also have) from North Sails. It seems very well built, seems to set well, has two reefs plus what someone here identified as a smaller "flattening reef." And, it also has a problem with top batten hitting backstay just a bit (it's not a full length batten FWIW).
When I asked about recommendations for the new furling jib I'm getting, Jerry said Elliot-Patterson, several people said Judy B Sails, and there were one or two other custom makers suggested that I've forgotten but they'd be in the list archives...
cheers, John
On 03/18/2018 04:43 PM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Mr. Bones, I cannot remember her name but several people recommended her work for a mainsail for my 1977 M17. The sail did not fit.The roach was cut too full at the full length top batten. I sent it back to her, she was very pleasant throughout the whole thing. I waited a couple of weeks because she had to send it back to the Far East, Taiwan, maybe to have it altered. When it returned the full length top batten would not clear the backstay so I took it out. The roach near the head riffles past the backstay when I come about. I cannot say I am pleased with the set of the main. It looks rather like a dishtowel draped across a clothesline. Again, she was very pleasant throughout the whole business but she did not seem to be able to create a good mainsail for my 17. Perhaps the rig, being a 1977, was not easy for her to deal with. I would definitely use a sailloft that works in this country. I think going with what Jerry suggests is going to be your best bet at getting a good setting and working main. Good luck Tom B
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On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 11:08 AM, bownez@juno.com <bownez@juno.com> wrote:
Listers,
Looking at ordering a new mainsail for my 1976 vintage M17. The last one I had made did not fit quite right, and I muddled through with it.
Does anyone (Jerry?) have the stock dimensions? The original spec sheet says it is 77 sq. ft in size.
I'm looking at:
loose footed luff cars 2 reef points full batten on top
Thoughts?
Many thanks
Mr. Bones ____________________________________________________________ The Unusual Link Between Alzheimer's and Coconut Oil (Watch) Memory Repair Protocol http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5aae8f4f8a338f4f4695st04vuc
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 7 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 13:01:55 GMT From: "bownez@juno.com" <bownez@juno.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Message-ID: <20180320.080155.30719.1@webmail01.vgs.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Howard brought up a good point:
"BTW, I still have the RA sails ?blown out as they are. Kept them for their DNA in hopes someday they could be cloned. "
If I sent my original Reg Armstrong sail onto a sail maker, can they duplicate it, even acknowledging that the sail is worn and stretched? Reg has a luff boltrope, I was thinking about mast luff cars to keep the sail from falling out of the mast once doused. Opinions on this listers?
I remember Jerry commenting once on how well RA sails performed with his M17s.
Bones ____________________________________________________________ 1 Simple Trick Removes Eye Bags & Lip Lines In Seconds risingstarnewspaper.com http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5ab10677d8ef86773f44st02vuc
------------------------------
Message: 8 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 13:07:50 GMT From: "bownez@juno.com" <bownez@juno.com> To: gilasailr@aol.com, montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Message-ID: <20180320.080750.30719.2@webmail01.vgs.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
And another question.....
Are most M17 owners going with 1 intermediate reef point or 2 reef points?
Seems like a deep 2nd reef gets very little use. Does a compromise reef point (in between the two) make more sense?
Bones ____________________________________________________________ Buckingham Confirms Unfortunate News risingstarnewspaper.com http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5ab107e62e1d17e665f1st03vuc
------------------------------
Message: 9 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 08:51:12 -0500 From: Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Message-ID: < CA+TbpAWvU02RG+hL4u-Qi7xaf1cTf7egu3O38V9WMGut9_gRZw@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Bones, I went to sliders instead of the bolt rope and really like the sail management they afford. I had to close the rail slot some which was designed to allow bolt rope passage.It is a tight fit above the mast with the cars since they will stay above the mast and the luff of the sail dictates how low the mast will ride as well as headroom in the cockpit once the is lowered at anchor. You will see when you get it all assembled. It was surprisingly easy to tap the slot closed for about half its length with a hammer and a 3/8 inch think piece of oak to slip into the existing slot so you have something to hammer against. Be sure you leave enough opening in the slot to unship the mast gooseneck slide. Some clever people use an auxiliary slot to hold the slides off to the side of the mast and use a swing gate to steer the slides to the side of the boom but that takes a lot of finagling. I think the change to hanks is well worth it. Tom B
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On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 8:01 AM, bownez@juno.com <bownez@juno.com> wrote:
Howard brought up a good point:
"BTW, I still have the RA sails ?blown out as they are. Kept them for their DNA in hopes someday they could be cloned. "
If I sent my original Reg Armstrong sail onto a sail maker, can they duplicate it, even acknowledging that the sail is worn and stretched? Reg has a luff boltrope, I was thinking about mast luff cars to keep the sail from falling out of the mast once doused. Opinions on this listers?
I remember Jerry commenting once on how well RA sails performed with his M17s.
Bones ____________________________________________________________ 1 Simple Trick Removes Eye Bags & Lip Lines In Seconds risingstarnewspaper.com http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5ab10677d8ef86773f44st02vuc
------------------------------
Message: 10 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 08:54:26 -0500 From: Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Message-ID: < CA+TbpAVLU92zPSpUZOFfrinJuHdpP2gxdTD53Uc80n4DHcCQKg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Bones, I ordered two reef points without much thought except to give myself the option to really shorten sail out on the water when a summer storm was making up very quickly. Unless you are worried about excess drag or flow over the sail, I would go ahead and get the second set put in. My two cents. Fair winds. Tom B
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On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 8:07 AM, bownez@juno.com <bownez@juno.com> wrote:
And another question.....
Are most M17 owners going with 1 intermediate reef point or 2 reef points?
Seems like a deep 2nd reef gets very little use. Does a compromise reef point (in between the two) make more sense?
Bones ____________________________________________________________ Buckingham Confirms Unfortunate News risingstarnewspaper.com http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5ab107e62e1d17e665f1st03vuc
------------------------------
Message: 11 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 08:25:25 -0600 From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Message-ID: <CAGjBOA5HwBiAU4H-nBt7HSxBzZmHv3=RoP6UpDx6= 3RP+atAdw@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
almost every boat i assisted with over the last seven years had a main with two reefs. IMO having two reefs is a lot like having an umbrella - have it you you will likely never need it, but if you don't. when i bought my M15 she didn't have two reefing points - got caught out wishing I had the ability to put in a second reef many times. when i purchased a new main for my old M15 it was with a double reef (sail was made by Harry).
in contrast I've never double reefed my M17.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/ <http://www.m17-375.webs.com> :: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/ :: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/ :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred
On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 7:07 AM, bownez@juno.com <bownez@juno.com> wrote:
And another question.....
Are most M17 owners going with 1 intermediate reef point or 2 reef points?
Seems like a deep 2nd reef gets very little use. Does a compromise reef point (in between the two) make more sense?
Bones ____________________________
------------------------------
Message: 12 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 09:38:46 -0500 From: Dan Farrell <msog@danf.us> To: Msog List <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Message-ID: <3js1ujr4mn4h1jcs2sgjg4ge.1521556623208@email.android.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
I would never trade my 2 reefs for one. I don't use the second very often, but feel that the first red is great sail area for moderate conditions in the 15-23 mph wind ranges. The few chances I've had to sail in the upper 20s, the boat did great with a second reef and working jib, the typical 110. I ordered my new sails with 2 reef points. I've only had a few months of sailing with a Genoa, but suspect in lieu of a headsail change, a single reef would balance pretty well with the 150.
I would worry that an intermediate reef would bring the sail area from too much to too little, being too big a change. Besides, what's the benefit? A little less rigging and a little less cost, but not much on either front. A small price to pay for having more options.
Dan Farrell M17 #301
bownez@juno.com wrote:
And another question.....
Are most M17 owners going with 1 intermediate reef point or 2 reef points?
Seems like a deep 2nd reef gets very little use. Does a compromise reef point (in between the two) make more sense?
Bones ____________________________________________________________ Buckingham Confirms Unfortunate News risingstarnewspaper.com http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5ab107e62e1d17e665f1st03vuc
------------------------------
Message: 13 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 14:53:01 +0000 From: Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Message-ID: < CY4PR17MB19754B79410142E38D13F7C8B7AB0@CY4PR17MB1975.namprd17.prod.outlook.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Two reefs are standard on all our M 15s and M 17s.....for the last 20 years. All our Sails are built by Harry. (EPsails.com) You never know the weather and I know M boaters coming back from Catalina that had to reef down to that second reef.
We use slugs (no bolt rope) and the mainsail is loose footed.
Be well Bob M Boats 949-489-8227 2 new 15s in stock. :-)
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 20, 2018, at 7:39 AM, Dan Farrell <msog@danf.us> wrote:
I would never trade my 2 reefs for one. I don't use the second very often, but feel that the first red is great sail area for moderate conditions in the 15-23 mph wind ranges. The few chances I've had to sail in the upper 20s, the boat did great with a second reef and working jib, the typical 110. I ordered my new sails with 2 reef points. I've only had a few months of sailing with a Genoa, but suspect in lieu of a headsail change, a single reef would balance pretty well with the 150.
I would worry that an intermediate reef would bring the sail area from too much to too little, being too big a change. Besides, what's the benefit? A little less rigging and a little less cost, but not much on either front. A small price to pay for having more options.
Dan Farrell M17 #301
bownez@juno.com wrote:
And another question.....
Are most M17 owners going with 1 intermediate reef point or 2 reef points?
Seems like a deep 2nd reef gets very little use. Does a compromise reef point (in between the two) make more sense?
Bones ____________________________________________________________ Buckingham Confirms Unfortunate News risingstarnewspaper.com http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5ab107e62e1d17e665f1st03vuc
------------------------------
Message: 14 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 09:38:50 -0700 From: "Keith R. Martin" <keith.richard.martin@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Message-ID: < CAOQkDsx3LuraQFNhW0dKJpg1v4LTZE6UYr-DNwJCo1ocvuzEVQ@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Murphy's Law...
From my perspective its about having options, I would rather have the 2nd deeper reef and never need it, as opposed to getting caught out somewhere and really need it but not have it...
Keith
*Keith R. Martin, P.Eng.*
*Burnaby, B.C. Canada* *Serenity, M17 #353?*
On 20 March 2018 at 06:07, bownez@juno.com <bownez@juno.com> wrote:
And another question.....
Are most M17 owners going with 1 intermediate reef point or 2 reef points?
Seems like a deep 2nd reef gets very little use. Does a compromise reef point (in between the two) make more sense?
Bones ____________________________________________________________ Buckingham Confirms Unfortunate News risingstarnewspaper.com http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5ab107e62e1d17e665f1st03vuc
------------------------------
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Please Unsubscribe me! jim@dhlqst.com Palatine, IL. 60074 On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 8:14 PM, Jon Barber <brbrbarber@gmail.com> wrote:
I too have a newer (2 seasons) set of H P sails. I like the options that 2 reef points allow. Full main and big jib, 1 reef and big jib, 2 reef and big jib, full main and working jib, 1 reef and working jib, 2 reef and working jib. And if it really blows I have a smaller jib. Many combinations allow for a great deal of messing about, and finding out how the boat behaves with all those combinations.
Monty 17 Ol'44 Jon Barber Modesto
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Mainsail (John Schinnerer) 2. Re: Mainsail (John Schinnerer) 3. Re: Mainsail (Howard Audsley) 4. Re: Mainsail (jerry@jerrymontgomery.org) 5. Re: Mainsail (John Schinnerer) 6. Re: Mainsail (Gary Oberbeck) 7. Re: Mainsail (bownez@juno.com) 8. Re: Mainsail (bownez@juno.com) 9. Re: Mainsail (Thomas Buzzi) 10. Re: Mainsail (Thomas Buzzi) 11. Re: Mainsail (Dave Scobie) 12. Re: Mainsail (Dan Farrell) 13. Re: Mainsail (Bob Eeg) 14. Re: Mainsail (Keith R. Martin)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 09:50:39 -1000 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Message-ID: <35fb6dc9-62e3-a19c-3c6a-517e6ac934c4@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
My 1974 M-17 came with a "newer" mainsail (meaning newer than the original, which I also have) from North Sails. It seems very well built, seems to set well, has two reefs plus what someone here identified as a smaller "flattening reef." And, it also has a problem with top batten hitting backstay just a bit (it's not a full length batten FWIW).
When I asked about recommendations for the new furling jib I'm getting, Jerry said Elliot-Patterson, several people said Judy B Sails, and there were one or two other custom makers suggested that I've forgotten but they'd be in the list archives...
cheers, John
On 03/18/2018 04:43 PM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Mr. Bones, I cannot remember her name but several people recommended her work for a mainsail for my 1977 M17. The sail did not fit.The roach was cut too full at the full length top batten. I sent it back to her, she was very pleasant throughout the whole thing. I waited a couple of weeks because she had to send it back to the Far East, Taiwan, maybe to have it altered. When it returned the full length top batten would not clear the backstay so I took it out. The roach near the head riffles past the backstay when I come about. I cannot say I am pleased with the set of the main. It looks rather like a dishtowel draped across a clothesline. Again, she was very pleasant throughout the whole business but she did not seem to be able to create a good mainsail for my 17. Perhaps the rig, being a 1977, was not easy for her to deal with. I would definitely use a sailloft that works in this country. I think going with what Jerry suggests is going to be your best bet at getting a good setting and working main. Good luck Tom B
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On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 11:08 AM, bownez@juno.com <bownez@juno.com> wrote:
Listers,
Looking at ordering a new mainsail for my 1976 vintage M17. The last one I had made did not fit quite right, and I muddled through with it.
Does anyone (Jerry?) have the stock dimensions? The original spec sheet says it is 77 sq. ft in size.
I'm looking at:
loose footed luff cars 2 reef points full batten on top
Thoughts?
Many thanks
Mr. Bones ____________________________________________________________ The Unusual Link Between Alzheimer's and Coconut Oil (Watch) Memory Repair Protocol http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5aae8f4f8a338f4f4695st04vuc
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 09:58:08 -1000 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Message-ID: <a3167e6c-b816-d677-36b2-89ef51510638@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
My #38 came with that same ~80% jib by Reggie Armstrong. It is old and soft and stretched but it still works pretty darn good in strong gusty wind. I also got what I think must be the original 150 genoa by RA. Also old but still works really well in light air.
I don't know what I have for the original main, I'll take a look sometime - maybe it is also an original RA main...
cheers, John
On 03/19/2018 05:29 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
jib??about an 80%
seems to be small for the M17 working jib ... a sail that size would be in the 'large storm jib' size. the usual working jib for the M17 is about 110%.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/ < http://www.m17-375.webs.com> :: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/ :: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/ :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred
On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 7:14 AM, Howard Audsley < haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
My M17 #278 also came to me with a Reggie Armstrong main and matching jib??about an 80% or so. The two of them combined had some magic voodoo that I?ve never been able to duplicate. Like getting her up on plane doing 6 knots plus going to weather in enough wind to have some nice whitecaps??.and heeled over no more than 15 to 20 degrees or so. Magic stuff. Similar performance with the same blown out main with 2 reefs and a 60% storm jib in wind blowing 25 knots plus. Just dancing along.
Reggie had his personal demons, but he knew how to build a sail. Or at least he got it right with the one he built for my boat.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 3 Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 15:13:00 -0500 From: Howard Audsley <haudsley@tranquility.net> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Message-ID: <20C214AF-B789-4BD2-885A-8F2935911245@tranquility.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Yes?..the head of that jib topped out about 2 to 4 feet below masthead???.the clew pretty low to the deck but not as far aft as the mast?..maybe a foot or two forward of the mast and just above the deck. Certainly a different shaped jib than my Ullman 60% storm jib, which is a tall thin blade?.or my 110% which goes all the way to the masthead and then some. If not for some substantial mast rake, the luff on the 110% will not tension properly. Moral to the story is the older boats have different specs than the newer ones do.
That plus the Reggie Armstrong working jib and main must have been perfectly matched to each other. Once the wind got up to 10 knots plus, that sail combo went to weather far better than the main and 110% I had made by Kern. Or the same main and 150% Genoa made by EP. Far better.
BTW, as I recall, the boat also came to me with a McKibbin 155% mylar genny??..a great sail until it delaminated. But it too, like the working jib, was a lower aspect sail than most sails built today. But they really worked on this boat.
BTW, I still have the RA sails??blown out as they are. Kept them for their DNA in hopes someday they could be cloned.
On Mar 19, 2018, at 10:29 AM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
jib??about an 80%
seems to be small for the M17 working jib ... a sail that size would be in the 'large storm jib' size. the usual working jib for the M17 is about 110%.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/ < http://www.m17-375.webs.com> :: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/ :: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/ :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred
On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 7:14 AM, Howard Audsley < haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
My M17 #278 also came to me with a Reggie Armstrong main and matching jib??about an 80% or so. The two of them combined had some magic voodoo that I?ve never been able to duplicate. Like getting her up on plane doing 6 knots plus going to weather in enough wind to have some nice whitecaps??.and heeled over no more than 15 to 20 degrees or so. Magic stuff. Similar performance with the same blown out main with 2 reefs and a 60% storm jib in wind blowing 25 knots plus. Just dancing along.
Reggie had his personal demons, but he knew how to build a sail. Or at least he got it right with the one he built for my boat.
------------------------------
Message: 4 Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 14:00:52 -0700 From: <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Message-ID: <38D0E798E980429680086DFADB203994@CH002914> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original
I used to recommend an intermediate jib for buyers in heavy air areas. Sounds like that's what you have. They work really well in 12 or 15 knots and up. Actually, a storm jib is a really useful sail; you don't need heavy air to make it work well. I know that the modern way for racers is a blade, all the way to the masthead, but for normal sailing I far prefer a 3/4 or so sail. I have both an intermediate and a storm for my Sage but haven't used either. Yet. I don't think I've yet reefed it, but do rig reefing lines just in case.
-----Original Message----- From: Howard Audsley Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 1:13 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail
Yes?..the head of that jib topped out about 2 to 4 feet below masthead???.the clew pretty low to the deck but not as far aft as the mast?..maybe a foot or two forward of the mast and just above the deck. Certainly a different shaped jib than my Ullman 60% storm jib, which is a tall thin blade?.or my 110% which goes all the way to the masthead and then some. If not for some substantial mast rake, the luff on the 110% will not tension properly. Moral to the story is the older boats have different specs than the newer ones do.
That plus the Reggie Armstrong working jib and main must have been perfectly matched to each other. Once the wind got up to 10 knots plus, that sail combo went to weather far better than the main and 110% I had made by Kern. Or the same main and 150% Genoa made by EP. Far better.
BTW, as I recall, the boat also came to me with a McKibbin 155% mylar genny??..a great sail until it delaminated. But it too, like the working jib, was a lower aspect sail than most sails built today. But they really worked on this boat.
BTW, I still have the RA sails??blown out as they are. Kept them for their DNA in hopes someday they could be cloned.
On Mar 19, 2018, at 10:29 AM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
jib??about an 80%
seems to be small for the M17 working jib ... a sail that size would be in the 'large storm jib' size. the usual working jib for the M17 is about 110%.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/ < http://www.m17-375.webs.com> :: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/ :: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/ :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred
On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 7:14 AM, Howard Audsley < haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
My M17 #278 also came to me with a Reggie Armstrong main and matching jib??about an 80% or so. The two of them combined had some magic voodoo that I?ve never been able to duplicate. Like getting her up on plane doing 6 knots plus going to weather in enough wind to have some nice whitecaps??.and heeled over no more than 15 to 20 degrees or so. Magic stuff. Similar performance with the same blown out main with 2 reefs and a 60% storm jib in wind blowing 25 knots plus. Just dancing along.
Reggie had his personal demons, but he knew how to build a sail. Or at least he got it right with the one he built for my boat.
------------------------------
Message: 5 Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 12:28:46 -1000 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Message-ID: <3f6f27f3-3c94-d6e1-212f-f74d88cfbf5b@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Sounds like mine too. I can corroborate Jerry's take on this, from using the 80% Reggie Armstrong jib that came with my boat in consistent 12-15, on a lake where there are also consistently gusts above that. I put the first small reef in my main ("flattening reef" someone said it was) and use the 80% and though it is old and tired, it still works well enough for that situation. The few times I've put the first full reef in the main, same jib, it also works well.
If my trim is off, I get too much heeling. But when I occasionally get the trim just right, she really sings.
cheers, John
On 03/19/2018 11:00 AM, jerry@jerrymontgomery.org wrote:
I used to recommend an intermediate jib for buyers in heavy air areas. Sounds like that's what you have.? They work really well in 12 or 15 knots and up.? Actually, a storm jib is a really useful sail; you don't need heavy air to make it work well.? I know that the modern way for racers is a blade, all the way to the masthead, but for normal sailing I far prefer a 3/4 or so sail.? I have both an intermediate and a storm for my Sage but haven't used either.? Yet.? I don't think I've yet reefed it, but do rig reefing lines just in case.
-----Original Message----- From: Howard Audsley Sent: Monday, March 19, 2018 1:13 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail
Yes?..the head of that jib topped out about 2 to 4 feet below masthead???.the clew pretty low to the deck but not as far aft as the mast?..maybe a foot or two forward of the mast and just above the deck. Certainly a different shaped jib than my Ullman 60% storm jib, which is a tall thin blade?.or my 110% which goes all the way to the masthead and then some. If not for some substantial mast rake, the luff on the 110% will not tension properly. Moral to the story is the older boats have different specs than the newer ones do.
That plus the Reggie Armstrong working jib and main must have been perfectly matched to each other. Once the wind got up to 10 knots plus, that sail combo went to weather far better than the main and 110% I had made by Kern. Or the same main and 150% Genoa made by EP. Far better.
BTW, as I recall, the boat also came to me with a McKibbin 155% mylar genny??..a great sail until it delaminated. But it too, like the working jib,? was a lower aspect sail than most sails built today. But they really worked on this boat.
BTW, I still have the RA sails??blown out as they are. Kept them for their DNA in hopes someday they could be cloned.
On Mar 19, 2018, at 10:29 AM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
jib??about an 80%
seems to be small for the M17 working jib ... a sail that size would be in the 'large storm jib' size.? the usual working jib for the M17 is about 110%.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/ <http://www.m17-375.webs.com> :: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/ :: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/ :: former M15 owner #288 -? http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred
On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 7:14 AM, Howard Audsley <haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
My M17 #278 also came to me with a Reggie Armstrong main and matching jib??about an 80% or so. The two of them combined had some magic voodoo that I?ve never been able to duplicate. Like getting her up on plane doing 6 knots plus going to weather in enough wind to have some nice whitecaps??.and heeled over no more than 15 to 20 degrees or so. Magic stuff. Similar performance with the same blown out main with 2 reefs and a 60% storm jib in wind blowing 25 knots plus. Just dancing along.
Reggie had his personal demons, but he knew how to build a sail. Or at least he got it right with the one he built for my boat.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 6 Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 23:30:54 -0400 From: Gary Oberbeck <gilasailr@aol.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Message-ID: <1624175b035-c85-7eb@webjas-vae056.srv.aolmail.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Elliot-Pattison probably has more experience than anyone currently making sails for the Montgomery 15/17's - and Jerry is right - Harry makes Jerry look good when they race together. (he is also a nice and knowledgable guy).
FWIW - do you drive on 40 year old,28 year old, okay 15 year old tires? Was your last oil change 40/28/15 years ago? Think about that re. the age of your sails....look good usually means nothing unless you had a sailmaker check them. I guarantee you, if you buy quality sails, it will change the experience when sailing your boat (I have a genoa that I am frequently mesmerized by when staring at it's shape- makes the boat haul a#* too!)
Have Fun, Go Sailing ! Do your baot a favor - and yourself by quality sails! (then roll them up to store them in 'sausage bags' so they stay nice!)
Gary O.
gilasailr@aol.com
-----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Mon, Mar 19, 2018 4:41 pm Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail
My 1974 M-17 came with a "newer" mainsail (meaning newer than the original, which I also have) from North Sails. It seems very well built, seems to set well, has two reefs plus what someone here identified as a smaller "flattening reef." And, it also has a problem with top batten hitting backstay just a bit (it's not a full length batten FWIW).
When I asked about recommendations for the new furling jib I'm getting, Jerry said Elliot-Patterson, several people said Judy B Sails, and there were one or two other custom makers suggested that I've forgotten but they'd be in the list archives...
cheers, John
On 03/18/2018 04:43 PM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Mr. Bones, I cannot remember her name but several people recommended her work for a mainsail for my 1977 M17. The sail did not fit.The roach was cut too full at the full length top batten. I sent it back to her, she was very pleasant throughout the whole thing. I waited a couple of weeks because she had to send it back to the Far East, Taiwan, maybe to have it altered. When it returned the full length top batten would not clear the backstay so I took it out. The roach near the head riffles past the backstay when I come about. I cannot say I am pleased with the set of the main. It looks rather like a dishtowel draped across a clothesline. Again, she was very pleasant throughout the whole business but she did not seem to be able to create a good mainsail for my 17. Perhaps the rig, being a 1977, was not easy for her to deal with. I would definitely use a sailloft that works in this country. I think going with what Jerry suggests is going to be your best bet at getting a good setting and working main. Good luck Tom B
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On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 11:08 AM, bownez@juno.com <bownez@juno.com> wrote:
Listers,
Looking at ordering a new mainsail for my 1976 vintage M17. The last one I had made did not fit quite right, and I muddled through with it.
Does anyone (Jerry?) have the stock dimensions? The original spec sheet says it is 77 sq. ft in size.
I'm looking at:
loose footed luff cars 2 reef points full batten on top
Thoughts?
Many thanks
Mr. Bones ____________________________________________________________ The Unusual Link Between Alzheimer's and Coconut Oil (Watch) Memory Repair Protocol http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5aae8f4f8a338f4f4695st04vuc
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
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Message: 7 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 13:01:55 GMT From: "bownez@juno.com" <bownez@juno.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Message-ID: <20180320.080155.30719.1@webmail01.vgs.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Howard brought up a good point:
"BTW, I still have the RA sails ?blown out as they are. Kept them for their DNA in hopes someday they could be cloned. "
If I sent my original Reg Armstrong sail onto a sail maker, can they duplicate it, even acknowledging that the sail is worn and stretched? Reg has a luff boltrope, I was thinking about mast luff cars to keep the sail from falling out of the mast once doused. Opinions on this listers?
I remember Jerry commenting once on how well RA sails performed with his M17s.
Bones ____________________________________________________________ 1 Simple Trick Removes Eye Bags & Lip Lines In Seconds risingstarnewspaper.com http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5ab10677d8ef86773f44st02vuc
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Message: 8 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 13:07:50 GMT From: "bownez@juno.com" <bownez@juno.com> To: gilasailr@aol.com, montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Message-ID: <20180320.080750.30719.2@webmail01.vgs.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
And another question.....
Are most M17 owners going with 1 intermediate reef point or 2 reef points?
Seems like a deep 2nd reef gets very little use. Does a compromise reef point (in between the two) make more sense?
Bones ____________________________________________________________ Buckingham Confirms Unfortunate News risingstarnewspaper.com http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5ab107e62e1d17e665f1st03vuc
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Message: 9 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 08:51:12 -0500 From: Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Message-ID: < CA+TbpAWvU02RG+hL4u-Qi7xaf1cTf7egu3O38V9WMGut9_gRZw@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Bones, I went to sliders instead of the bolt rope and really like the sail management they afford. I had to close the rail slot some which was designed to allow bolt rope passage.It is a tight fit above the mast with the cars since they will stay above the mast and the luff of the sail dictates how low the mast will ride as well as headroom in the cockpit once the is lowered at anchor. You will see when you get it all assembled. It was surprisingly easy to tap the slot closed for about half its length with a hammer and a 3/8 inch think piece of oak to slip into the existing slot so you have something to hammer against. Be sure you leave enough opening in the slot to unship the mast gooseneck slide. Some clever people use an auxiliary slot to hold the slides off to the side of the mast and use a swing gate to steer the slides to the side of the boom but that takes a lot of finagling. I think the change to hanks is well worth it. Tom B
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On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 8:01 AM, bownez@juno.com <bownez@juno.com> wrote:
Howard brought up a good point:
"BTW, I still have the RA sails ?blown out as they are. Kept them for their DNA in hopes someday they could be cloned. "
If I sent my original Reg Armstrong sail onto a sail maker, can they duplicate it, even acknowledging that the sail is worn and stretched? Reg has a luff boltrope, I was thinking about mast luff cars to keep the sail from falling out of the mast once doused. Opinions on this listers?
I remember Jerry commenting once on how well RA sails performed with his M17s.
Bones ____________________________________________________________ 1 Simple Trick Removes Eye Bags & Lip Lines In Seconds risingstarnewspaper.com http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5ab10677d8ef86773f44st02vuc
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Message: 10 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 08:54:26 -0500 From: Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Message-ID: < CA+TbpAVLU92zPSpUZOFfrinJuHdpP2gxdTD53Uc80n4DHcCQKg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Bones, I ordered two reef points without much thought except to give myself the option to really shorten sail out on the water when a summer storm was making up very quickly. Unless you are worried about excess drag or flow over the sail, I would go ahead and get the second set put in. My two cents. Fair winds. Tom B
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On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 8:07 AM, bownez@juno.com <bownez@juno.com> wrote:
And another question.....
Are most M17 owners going with 1 intermediate reef point or 2 reef points?
Seems like a deep 2nd reef gets very little use. Does a compromise reef point (in between the two) make more sense?
Bones ____________________________________________________________ Buckingham Confirms Unfortunate News risingstarnewspaper.com http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5ab107e62e1d17e665f1st03vuc
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Message: 11 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 08:25:25 -0600 From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Message-ID: <CAGjBOA5HwBiAU4H-nBt7HSxBzZmHv3=RoP6UpDx6= 3RP+atAdw@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
almost every boat i assisted with over the last seven years had a main with two reefs. IMO having two reefs is a lot like having an umbrella - have it you you will likely never need it, but if you don't. when i bought my M15 she didn't have two reefing points - got caught out wishing I had the ability to put in a second reef many times. when i purchased a new main for my old M15 it was with a double reef (sail was made by Harry).
in contrast I've never double reefed my M17.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/ < http://www.m17-375.webs.com> :: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/ :: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/ :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred
On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 7:07 AM, bownez@juno.com <bownez@juno.com> wrote:
And another question.....
Are most M17 owners going with 1 intermediate reef point or 2 reef points?
Seems like a deep 2nd reef gets very little use. Does a compromise reef point (in between the two) make more sense?
Bones ____________________________
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Message: 12 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 09:38:46 -0500 From: Dan Farrell <msog@danf.us> To: Msog List <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Message-ID: <3js1ujr4mn4h1jcs2sgjg4ge.1521556623208@email.android.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
I would never trade my 2 reefs for one. I don't use the second very often, but feel that the first red is great sail area for moderate conditions in the 15-23 mph wind ranges. The few chances I've had to sail in the upper 20s, the boat did great with a second reef and working jib, the typical 110. I ordered my new sails with 2 reef points. I've only had a few months of sailing with a Genoa, but suspect in lieu of a headsail change, a single reef would balance pretty well with the 150.
I would worry that an intermediate reef would bring the sail area from too much to too little, being too big a change. Besides, what's the benefit? A little less rigging and a little less cost, but not much on either front. A small price to pay for having more options.
Dan Farrell M17 #301
bownez@juno.com wrote:
And another question.....
Are most M17 owners going with 1 intermediate reef point or 2 reef points?
Seems like a deep 2nd reef gets very little use. Does a compromise reef point (in between the two) make more sense?
Bones ____________________________________________________________ Buckingham Confirms Unfortunate News risingstarnewspaper.com http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5ab107e62e1d17e665f1st03vuc
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Message: 13 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 14:53:01 +0000 From: Bob Eeg <montgomeryboats@hotmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Message-ID: < CY4PR17MB19754B79410142E38D13F7C8B7AB0@CY4PR17MB1975. namprd17.prod.outlook.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Two reefs are standard on all our M 15s and M 17s.....for the last 20 years. All our Sails are built by Harry. (EPsails.com) You never know the weather and I know M boaters coming back from Catalina that had to reef down to that second reef.
We use slugs (no bolt rope) and the mainsail is loose footed.
Be well Bob M Boats 949-489-8227 2 new 15s in stock. :-)
Sent from my iPad
On Mar 20, 2018, at 7:39 AM, Dan Farrell <msog@danf.us> wrote:
I would never trade my 2 reefs for one. I don't use the second very often, but feel that the first red is great sail area for moderate conditions in the 15-23 mph wind ranges. The few chances I've had to sail in the upper 20s, the boat did great with a second reef and working jib, the typical 110. I ordered my new sails with 2 reef points. I've only had a few months of sailing with a Genoa, but suspect in lieu of a headsail change, a single reef would balance pretty well with the 150.
I would worry that an intermediate reef would bring the sail area from too much to too little, being too big a change. Besides, what's the benefit? A little less rigging and a little less cost, but not much on either front. A small price to pay for having more options.
Dan Farrell M17 #301
bownez@juno.com wrote:
And another question.....
Are most M17 owners going with 1 intermediate reef point or 2 reef points?
Seems like a deep 2nd reef gets very little use. Does a compromise reef point (in between the two) make more sense?
Bones ____________________________________________________________ Buckingham Confirms Unfortunate News risingstarnewspaper.com http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5ab107e62e1d17e665f1st03vuc
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Message: 14 Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 09:38:50 -0700 From: "Keith R. Martin" <keith.richard.martin@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mainsail Message-ID: < CAOQkDsx3LuraQFNhW0dKJpg1v4LTZE6UYr-DNwJCo1ocvuzEVQ@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Murphy's Law...
From my perspective its about having options, I would rather have the 2nd deeper reef and never need it, as opposed to getting caught out somewhere and really need it but not have it...
Keith
*Keith R. Martin, P.Eng.*
*Burnaby, B.C. Canada* *Serenity, M17 #353?*
On 20 March 2018 at 06:07, bownez@juno.com <bownez@juno.com> wrote:
And another question.....
Are most M17 owners going with 1 intermediate reef point or 2 reef points?
Seems like a deep 2nd reef gets very little use. Does a compromise reef point (in between the two) make more sense?
Bones ____________________________________________________________ Buckingham Confirms Unfortunate News risingstarnewspaper.com http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5ab107e62e1d17e665f1st03vuc
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End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 181, Issue 10 *************************************************
participants (2)
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Jim Dahlquist -
Jon Barber