Montypals: Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited it out. I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A learning experience today. Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
Hello Daniel, I have been faced with the same situation many times and have tried many tactics to get home safely. I do have the storm jib and had never used until a few weeks ago. Of course I would never attempt to change under way either. We had forecast of 20 mph winds gusting much higher at times so I decided to try the storm jib before I launched. I did not reef the main, and thought I'd give it a try. I was so pleasantly surprised at how well the boat handled. I easily panic at times with the working jib but that never happened with the storm jib in place. I was so much more relaxed. My best speeds were hovering around 9 mph and running 4 to 5 mph on a beat. I sail alone 90% of the time and managing the working jib and main in heavy air can be a challenge for me. The storm jib made it refreshing. I actually felt the M-15 pointed better with the storm jib, but my experience is still very limited with it, time will tell. I've waited it out many times afraid to try to come in and had come in after dark many times waiting for the wind to die. I just love it I guess! Jack Zukowski in Connecticut Still no name...2010 M-15 On Aug 17, 2013, at 8:23 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Montypals:
Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited it out.
I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A learning experience today.
Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
Very interesting. Where did you get your storm jib? Also, I guess one issue for me and for you is knowing ahead of time about putting it on. Now, I suppose I could have anchored and put it on then. Interesting. Daniel On Aug 17, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Jack Zukowski <john7jack@aol.com> wrote:
Hello Daniel, I have been faced with the same situation many times and have tried many tactics to get home safely. I do have the storm jib and had never used until a few weeks ago. Of course I would never attempt to change under way either. We had forecast of 20 mph winds gusting much higher at times so I decided to try the storm jib before I launched. I did not reef the main, and thought I'd give it a try. I was so pleasantly surprised at how well the boat handled. I easily panic at times with the working jib but that never happened with the storm jib in place. I was so much more relaxed. My best speeds were hovering around 9 mph and running 4 to 5 mph on a beat. I sail alone 90% of the time and managing the working jib and main in heavy air can be a challenge for me. The storm jib made it refreshing. I actually felt the M-15 pointed better with the storm jib, but my experience is still very limited with it, time will tell. I've waited it out many times afraid to try to come in and had come in after dark many times waiting for the wind to die. I just love it I guess!
Jack Zukowski in Connecticut Still no name...2010 M-15
On Aug 17, 2013, at 8:23 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Montypals:
Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited it out.
I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A learning experience today.
Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
Daniel, Is Tomales bay as shallow as it looks? Inquiring minds want to know Stan ________________________________ From: Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2013 8:11 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: heavy air in an M15 Very interesting. Where did you get your storm jib? Also, I guess one issue for me and for you is knowing ahead of time about putting it on. Now, I suppose I could have anchored and put it on then. Interesting. Daniel On Aug 17, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Jack Zukowski <john7jack@aol.com> wrote:
Hello Daniel, I have been faced with the same situation many times and have tried many tactics to get home safely. I do have the storm jib and had never used until a few weeks ago. Of course I would never attempt to change under way either. We had forecast of 20 mph winds gusting much higher at times so I decided to try the storm jib before I launched. I did not reef the main, and thought I'd give it a try. I was so pleasantly surprised at how well the boat handled. I easily panic at times with the working jib but that never happened with the storm jib in place. I was so much more relaxed. My best speeds were hovering around 9 mph and running 4 to 5 mph on a beat. I sail alone 90% of the time and managing the working jib and main in heavy air can be a challenge for me. The storm jib made it refreshing. I actually felt the M-15 pointed better with the storm jib, but my experience is still very limited with it, time will tell. I've waited it out many times afraid to try to come in and had come in after dark many times waiting for the wind to die. I just love it I guess!
Jack Zukowski in Connecticut Still no name...2010 M-15
On Aug 17, 2013, at 8:23 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Montypals:
Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited it out.
I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A learning experience today.
Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
Most of Tomales bay is pretty shallow, and has lots of seaweed and kelp to get tangled in, but it's a fun place to sail. Bill Day M-15 363 "Gee Whiz!" On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 8:40 PM, Stan Susman <stanpfa@pacbell.net> wrote:
Daniel, Is Tomales bay as shallow as it looks? Inquiring minds want to know Stan
________________________________ From: Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2013 8:11 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: heavy air in an M15
Very interesting.
Where did you get your storm jib? Also, I guess one issue for me and for you is knowing ahead of time about putting it on. Now, I suppose I could have anchored and put it on then. Interesting.
Daniel On Aug 17, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Jack Zukowski <john7jack@aol.com> wrote:
Hello Daniel, I have been faced with the same situation many times and have tried many tactics to get home safely. I do have the storm jib and had never used until a few weeks ago. Of course I would never attempt to change under way either. We had forecast of 20 mph winds gusting much higher at times so I decided to try the storm jib before I launched. I did not reef the main, and thought I'd give it a try. I was so pleasantly surprised at how well the boat handled. I easily panic at times with the working jib but that never happened with the storm jib in place. I was so much more relaxed. My best speeds were hovering around 9 mph and running 4 to 5 mph on a beat. I sail alone 90% of the time and managing the working jib and main in heavy air can be a challenge for me. The storm jib made it refreshing. I actually felt the M-15 pointed better with the storm jib, but my experience is still very limited with it, time will tell. I've waited it out many times afraid to try to come in and had come in after dark many times waiting for the wind to die. I just love it I guess!
Jack Zukowski in Connecticut Still no name...2010 M-15
On Aug 17, 2013, at 8:23 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Montypals:
Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited it out.
I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A learning experience today.
Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
In many parts it is quite shallow. Indeed, I have to time the tides just to launch and retrieve. Some parts are pretty deep. I don't go out the mouth into Bodega Bay. That section is really shallow, and waves break there. Every year fishermen drown there. Daniel On Aug 17, 2013, at 8:40 PM, Stan Susman <stanpfa@pacbell.net> wrote:
Daniel, Is Tomales bay as shallow as it looks? Inquiring minds want to know Stan
________________________________ From: Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2013 8:11 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: heavy air in an M15
Very interesting.
Where did you get your storm jib? Also, I guess one issue for me and for you is knowing ahead of time about putting it on. Now, I suppose I could have anchored and put it on then. Interesting.
Daniel On Aug 17, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Jack Zukowski <john7jack@aol.com> wrote:
Hello Daniel, I have been faced with the same situation many times and have tried many tactics to get home safely. I do have the storm jib and had never used until a few weeks ago. Of course I would never attempt to change under way either. We had forecast of 20 mph winds gusting much higher at times so I decided to try the storm jib before I launched. I did not reef the main, and thought I'd give it a try. I was so pleasantly surprised at how well the boat handled. I easily panic at times with the working jib but that never happened with the storm jib in place. I was so much more relaxed. My best speeds were hovering around 9 mph and running 4 to 5 mph on a beat. I sail alone 90% of the time and managing the working jib and main in heavy air can be a challenge for me. The storm jib made it refreshing. I actually felt the M-15 pointed better with the storm jib, but my experience is still very limited with it, time will tell. I've waited it out many times afraid to try to come in and had come in after dark many times waiting for the wind to die. I just love it I guess!
Jack Zukowski in Connecticut Still no name...2010 M-15
On Aug 17, 2013, at 8:23 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Montypals:
Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited it out.
I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A learning experience today.
Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
I have been told that the key to when to fly a storm jib, or when to reef the main, "If you think you should do it, it is time to do it." Steve M-15 # 335 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Rich" <danielgrich@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2013 8:11 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: heavy air in an M15 Very interesting. Where did you get your storm jib? Also, I guess one issue for me and for you is knowing ahead of time about putting it on. Now, I suppose I could have anchored and put it on then. Interesting. Daniel On Aug 17, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Jack Zukowski <john7jack@aol.com> wrote:
Hello Daniel, I have been faced with the same situation many times and have tried many tactics to get home safely. I do have the storm jib and had never used until a few weeks ago. Of course I would never attempt to change under way either. We had forecast of 20 mph winds gusting much higher at times so I decided to try the storm jib before I launched. I did not reef the main, and thought I'd give it a try. I was so pleasantly surprised at how well the boat handled. I easily panic at times with the working jib but that never happened with the storm jib in place. I was so much more relaxed. My best speeds were hovering around 9 mph and running 4 to 5 mph on a beat. I sail alone 90% of the time and managing the working jib and main in heavy air can be a challenge for me. The storm jib made it refreshing. I actually felt the M-15 pointed better with the storm jib, but my experience is still very limited with it, time will tell. I've waited it out many times afraid to try to come in and had come in after dark many times waiting for the wind to die. I just love it I guess!
Jack Zukowski in Connecticut Still no name...2010 M-15
On Aug 17, 2013, at 8:23 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Montypals:
Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited it out.
I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A learning experience today.
Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
Hello again Daniel, The storm jib came with the m-15 when I bought it. I believe it is from the same sail maker that did the main and working jib, but without looking I can't swear to that. From my limited experience with the storm jib I would now fly it at anything over 15 mph winds. It just makes it easier. I didn't panic as I usually do when the wind gusted up. I am not a racer, I just enjoy going out and having a good day with enough time on my hands to drink a beer or two! The storm jib gave me that time.! All in all I was able to relax a lot more and I really do feel that the boat pointed better for me and I also feel that sailing with just the main is not an issue at all. The m-15 handles wonderfully with just the main out there. I don't want to be out there when the winds are exceeding 25 mph but sometime we have no choice. At 70 years old I don't like to be fighting for my life and sometime I think I am! I'll be out there tomorrow bitchin' there ain't enough wind, and the next day afraid to launch because there is too much wind! But I aways go! I feel the m-15 is the bmw of small sailboats, they do handle so beautifully . Jack 2010 m-15 On Aug 17, 2013, at 11:11 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Very interesting.
Where did you get your storm jib? Also, I guess one issue for me and for you is knowing ahead of time about putting it on. Now, I suppose I could have anchored and put it on then. Interesting.
Daniel On Aug 17, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Jack Zukowski <john7jack@aol.com> wrote:
Hello Daniel, I have been faced with the same situation many times and have tried many tactics to get home safely. I do have the storm jib and had never used until a few weeks ago. Of course I would never attempt to change under way either. We had forecast of 20 mph winds gusting much higher at times so I decided to try the storm jib before I launched. I did not reef the main, and thought I'd give it a try. I was so pleasantly surprised at how well the boat handled. I easily panic at times with the working jib but that never happened with the storm jib in place. I was so much more relaxed. My best speeds were hovering around 9 mph and running 4 to 5 mph on a beat. I sail alone 90% of the time and managing the working jib and main in heavy air can be a challenge for me. The storm jib made it refreshing. I actually felt the M-15 pointed better with the storm jib, but my experience is still very limited with it, time will tell. I've waited it out many times afraid to try to come in and had come in after dark many times waiting for the wind to die. I just love it I guess!
Jack Zukowski in Connecticut Still no name...2010 M-15
On Aug 17, 2013, at 8:23 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Montypals:
Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited it out.
I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A learning experience today.
Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
Guess I better check to make sure I do have a storm jib for my 17'. All the time I have had it I did not think that perhaps a storm jib would be the ticket for beating to windward in 25+ knot headwinds. Interesting. Tom B M-17 #258 On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 11:48 PM, Jack Zukowski <john7jack@aol.com> wrote:
Hello again Daniel, The storm jib came with the m-15 when I bought it. I believe it is from the same sail maker that did the main and working jib, but without looking I can't swear to that. From my limited experience with the storm jib I would now fly it at anything over 15 mph winds. It just makes it easier. I didn't panic as I usually do when the wind gusted up. I am not a racer, I just enjoy going out and having a good day with enough time on my hands to drink a beer or two! The storm jib gave me that time.! All in all I was able to relax a lot more and I really do feel that the boat pointed better for me and I also feel that sailing with just the main is not an issue at all. The m-15 handles wonderfully with just the main out there. I don't want to be out there when the winds are exceeding 25 mph but sometime we have no choice. At 70 years old I don't like to be fighting for my life and sometime I think I am! I'll be out there tomorrow bitchin' there ain't enough wind, and the next day afraid to launch because there is too much wind! But I aways go! I feel the m-15 is the bmw of small sailboats, they do handle so beautifully .
Jack 2010 m-15
On Aug 17, 2013, at 11:11 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Very interesting.
Where did you get your storm jib? Also, I guess one issue for me and for you is knowing ahead of time about putting it on. Now, I suppose I could have anchored and put it on then. Interesting.
Daniel On Aug 17, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Jack Zukowski <john7jack@aol.com> wrote:
Hello Daniel, I have been faced with the same situation many times and have tried many tactics to get home safely. I do have the storm jib and had never used until a few weeks ago. Of course I would never attempt to change under way either. We had forecast of 20 mph winds gusting much higher at times so I decided to try the storm jib before I launched. I did not reef the main, and thought I'd give it a try. I was so pleasantly surprised at how well the boat handled. I easily panic at times with the working jib but that never happened with the storm jib in place. I was so much more relaxed. My best speeds were hovering around 9 mph and running 4 to 5 mph on a beat. I sail alone 90% of the time and managing the working jib and main in heavy air can be a challenge for me. The storm jib made it refreshing. I actually felt the M-15 pointed better with the storm jib, but my experience is still very limited with it, time will tell. I've waited it out many times afraid to try to come in and had come in after dark many times waiting for the wind to die. I just love it I guess!
Jack Zukowski in Connecticut Still no name...2010 M-15
On Aug 17, 2013, at 8:23 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Montypals:
Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited it out.
I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A learning experience today.
Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
Tom, My solution for the 17, which I've never regretted, is a CDI furler and a 135% genoa with a luff pad. Rolled down to around 80% with a single reef in the main, and you're good anywhere up to 15 - 18 or so, pointing well to windward, and you never leave the cockpit which, being closer to 80 than 70, is a real plus for me. If the wind eases, shake out the reef, unroll the genoa, and you're on your way. Rick M17 #633 Lynne L On Sunday, August 18, 2013, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Guess I better check to make sure I do have a storm jib for my 17'. All the time I have had it I did not think that perhaps a storm jib would be the ticket for beating to windward in 25+ knot headwinds. Interesting. Tom B M-17 #258
On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 11:48 PM, Jack Zukowski <john7jack@aol.com> wrote:
Hello again Daniel, The storm jib came with the m-15 when I bought it. I believe it is from the same sail maker that did the main and working jib, but without looking I can't swear to that. From my limited experience with the storm jib I would now fly it at anything over 15 mph winds. It just makes it easier. I didn't panic as I usually do when the wind gusted up. I am not a racer, I just enjoy going out and having a good day with enough time on my hands to drink a beer or two! The storm jib gave me that time.! All in all I was able to relax a lot more and I really do feel that the boat pointed better for me and I also feel that sailing with just the main is not an issue at all. The m-15 handles wonderfully with just the main out there. I don't want to be out there when the winds are exceeding 25 mph but sometime we have no choice. At 70 years old I don't like to be fighting for my life and sometime I think I am! I'll be out there tomorrow bitchin' there ain't enough wind, and the next day afraid to launch because there is too much wind! But I aways go! I feel the m-15 is the bmw of small sailboats, they do handle so beautifully .
Jack 2010 m-15
On Aug 17, 2013, at 11:11 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Very interesting.
Where did you get your storm jib? Also, I guess one issue for me and for you is knowing ahead of time about putting it on. Now, I suppose I could have anchored and put it on then. Interesting.
Daniel On Aug 17, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Jack Zukowski <john7jack@aol.com> wrote:
Hello Daniel, I have been faced with the same situation many times and have tried many tactics to get home safely. I do have the storm jib and had never used until a few weeks ago. Of course I would never attempt to change under way either. We had forecast of 20 mph winds gusting much higher at times so I decided to try the storm jib before I launched. I did not reef the main, and thought I'd give it a try. I was so pleasantly surprised at how well the boat handled. I easily panic at times with the working jib but that never happened with the storm jib in place. I was so much more relaxed. My best speeds were hovering around 9 mph and running 4 to 5 mph on a beat. I sail alone 90% of the time and managing the working jib and main in heavy air can be a challenge for me. The storm jib made it refreshing. I actually felt the M-15 pointed better with the storm jib, but my experience is still very limited with it, time will tell. I've waited it out many times afraid to try to come in and had come in after dark many times waiting for the wind to die. I just love it I guess!
Jack Zukowski in Connecticut Still no name...2010 M-15
On Aug 17, 2013, at 8:23 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Montypals:
Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress
Sounds great Rick, Now I am figuring out how I could incorporate that into my launch routine. I don't think that roller furler likes to be bent in the middle. As it is I leave the mast fully rigged except for the forestay and then just bolt in the foot and stand it up while it is still on the tralier. I do a do-ce-do around the mast, pick up the forestay with the snap shackle on it and lean into it enough to make it to the stemhead and voila, a rigged and properly tensioned rig once again. Fair winds, Tom B #258 On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 7:13 PM, Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> wrote:
Tom,
My solution for the 17, which I've never regretted, is a CDI furler and a 135% genoa with a luff pad. Rolled down to around 80% with a single reef in the main, and you're good anywhere up to 15 - 18 or so, pointing well to windward, and you never leave the cockpit which, being closer to 80 than 70, is a real plus for me. If the wind eases, shake out the reef, unroll the genoa, and you're on your way.
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Sunday, August 18, 2013, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Guess I better check to make sure I do have a storm jib for my 17'. All the time I have had it I did not think that perhaps a storm jib would be the ticket for beating to windward in 25+ knot headwinds. Interesting. Tom B M-17 #258
On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 11:48 PM, Jack Zukowski <john7jack@aol.com> wrote:
Hello again Daniel, The storm jib came with the m-15 when I bought it. I believe it is from the same sail maker that did the main and working jib, but without looking I can't swear to that. From my limited experience with the storm jib I would now fly it at anything over 15 mph winds. It just makes it easier. I didn't panic as I usually do when the wind gusted up. I am not a racer, I just enjoy going out and having a good day with enough time on my hands to drink a beer or two! The storm jib gave me that time.! All in all I was able to relax a lot more and I really do feel that the boat pointed better for me and I also feel that sailing with just the main is not an issue at all. The m-15 handles wonderfully with just the main out there. I don't want to be out there when the winds are exceeding 25 mph but sometime we have no choice. At 70 years old I don't like to be fighting for my life and sometime I think I am! I'll be out there tomorrow bitchin' there ain't enough wind, and the next day afraid to launch because there is too much wind! But I aways go! I feel the m-15 is the bmw of small sailboats, they do handle so beautifully .
Jack 2010 m-15
On Aug 17, 2013, at 11:11 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Very interesting.
Where did you get your storm jib? Also, I guess one issue for me and for you is knowing ahead of time about putting it on. Now, I suppose I could have anchored and put it on then. Interesting.
Daniel On Aug 17, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Jack Zukowski <john7jack@aol.com> wrote:
Hello Daniel, I have been faced with the same situation many times and have tried many tactics to get home safely. I do have the storm jib and had never used until a few weeks ago. Of course I would never attempt to change under way either. We had forecast of 20 mph winds gusting much higher at times so I decided to try the storm jib before I launched. I did not reef the main, and thought I'd give it a try. I was so pleasantly surprised at how well the boat handled. I easily panic at times with the working jib but that never happened with the storm jib in place. I was so much more relaxed. My best speeds were hovering around 9 mph and running 4 to 5 mph on a beat. I sail alone 90% of the time and managing the working jib and main in heavy air can be a challenge for me. The storm jib made it refreshing. I actually felt the M-15 pointed better with the storm jib, but my experience is still very limited with it, time will tell. I've waited it out many times afraid to try to come in and had come in after dark many times waiting for the wind to die. I just love it I guess!
Jack Zukowski in Connecticut Still no name...2010 M-15
On Aug 17, 2013, at 8:23 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Montypals:
Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress
Tom, You can follow exactly the same procedure with the furler, in fact you can leave the genoa in place, although it does add a little weight to the mast. If you take the sail off, you hardly know the furler is there. Also, if you crank the trailer tongue down as far as it will go the mast is tipped forward when fully raised, so you can climb out of the boat and pin the forestay standing on the ground. No need for the do-ce-do :-) Rick M17 #633 Lynne L On Monday, August 19, 2013, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Sounds great Rick, Now I am figuring out how I could incorporate that into my launch routine. . don't think that roller furler likes to be bent in the middle. As it is I leave the mast fully rigged except for the forestay and then just bolt in the foot and stand it up while it is still on the tralier. I do a do-ce-do around the mast, pick up the forestay with the snap shackle on it and lean into it enough to make it to the stemhead and voila, a rigged and properly tensioned rig once again. Fair winds, Tom B #258
On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 7:13 PM, Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> wrote:
Tom,
My solution for the 17, which I've never regretted, is a CDI furler and a 135% genoa with a luff pad. Rolled down to around 80% with a single reef in the main, and you're good anywhere up to 15 - 18 or so, pointing well to windward, and you never leave the cockpit which, being closer to 80 than 70, is a real plus for me. If the wind eases, shake out the reef, unroll the genoa, and you're on your way.
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Sunday, August 18, 2013, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Guess I better check to make sure I do have a storm jib for my 17'. All the time I have had it I did not think that perhaps a storm jib would be the ticket for beating to windward in 25+ knot headwinds. Interesting. Tom B M-17 #258
On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 11:48 PM, Jack Zukowski <john7jack@aol.com> wrote:
Hello again Daniel, The storm jib came with the m-15 when I bought it. I believe it is from the same sail maker that did the main and working jib, but without looking I can't swear to that. From my limited experience with the storm jib I would now fly it at anything over 15 mph winds. It just makes it easier. I didn't panic as I usually do when the wind gusted up. I am not a racer, I just enjoy going out and having a good day with enough time on my hands to drink a beer or two! The storm jib gave me that time.! All in all I was able to relax a lot more and I really do feel that the boat pointed better for me and I also feel that sailing with just the main is not an issue at all. The m-15 handles wonderfully with just the main out there. I don't want to be out there when the winds are exceeding 25 mph but sometime we have no choice. At 70 years old I don't like to be fighting for my life and sometime I think I am! I'll be out there tomorrow bitchin' there ain't enough wind, and the next day afraid to launch because there is too much wind! But I aways go! I feel the m-15 is the bmw of small sailboats, they do handle so beautifully .
Jack 2010 m-15
On Aug 17, 2013, at 11:11 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Very interesting.
Where did you get your storm jib? Also, I guess one issue for me and for you is knowing ahead of time about putting it on. Now, I suppose I could have anchored and put it on then. Interesting.
Daniel On Aug 17, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Jack Zukowski <john7jack@aol.com> wrote:
Hello Daniel, I have been faced with the same situation many times and have tried many tactics to get home safely. I do have the storm jib and had never used until a few weeks ago. Of course I would never attempt to change under way either. We had forecast of 20 mph winds gusting much higher at times so I decided to try the storm jib before I launched. I did not reef the main, and thought I'd give it a try. I was so pleasantly surprised at how well the boat handled. I easily panic at times with the working jib but that never happened with the storm jib in place. I was so much more relaxed. My best speeds were hovering around 9 mph and running 4 to 5 mph on a beat. I sail alo
Rick, Good points, thanks. Tom On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 12:26 PM, Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> wrote:
Tom,
You can follow exactly the same procedure with the furler, in fact you can leave the genoa in place, although it does add a little weight to the mast. If you take the sail off, you hardly know the furler is there. Also, if you crank the trailer tongue down as far as it will go the mast is tipped forward when fully raised, so you can climb out of the boat and pin the forestay standing on the ground. No need for the do-ce-do :-)
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Monday, August 19, 2013, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Sounds great Rick, Now I am figuring out how I could incorporate that into my launch routine. . don't think that roller furler likes to be bent in the middle. As it is I leave the mast fully rigged except for the forestay and then just bolt in the foot and stand it up while it is still on the tralier. I do a do-ce-do around the mast, pick up the forestay with the snap shackle on it and lean into it enough to make it to the stemhead and voila, a rigged and properly tensioned rig once again. Fair winds, Tom B #258
On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 7:13 PM, Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> wrote:
Tom,
My solution for the 17, which I've never regretted, is a CDI furler and a 135% genoa with a luff pad. Rolled down to around 80% with a single reef in the main, and you're good anywhere up to 15 - 18 or so, pointing well to windward, and you never leave the cockpit which, being closer to 80 than 70, is a real plus for me. If the wind eases, shake out the reef, unroll the genoa, and you're on your way.
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Sunday, August 18, 2013, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Guess I better check to make sure I do have a storm jib for my 17'. All the time I have had it I did not think that perhaps a storm jib would be the ticket for beating to windward in 25+ knot headwinds. Interesting. Tom B M-17 #258
On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 11:48 PM, Jack Zukowski <john7jack@aol.com> wrote:
Hello again Daniel, The storm jib came with the m-15 when I bought it. I believe it is from the same sail maker that did the main and working jib, but without looking I can't swear to that. From my limited experience with the storm jib I would now fly it at anything over 15 mph winds. It just makes it easier. I didn't panic as I usually do when the wind gusted up. I am not a racer, I just enjoy going out and having a good day with enough time on my hands to drink a beer or two! The storm jib gave me that time.! All in all I was able to relax a lot more and I really do feel that the boat pointed better for me and I also feel that sailing with just the main is not an issue at all. The m-15 handles wonderfully with just the main out there. I don't want to be out there when the winds are exceeding 25 mph but sometime we have no choice. At 70 years old I don't like to be fighting for my life and sometime I think I am! I'll be out there tomorrow bitchin' there ain't enough wind, and the next day afraid to launch because there is too much wind! But I aways go! I feel the m-15 is the bmw of small sailboats, they do handle so beautifully .
Jack 2010 m-15
On Aug 17, 2013, at 11:11 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Very interesting.
Where did you get your storm jib? Also, I guess one issue for me and for you is knowing ahead of time about putting it on. Now, I suppose I could have anchored and put it on then. Interesting.
Daniel On Aug 17, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Jack Zukowski <john7jack@aol.com> wrote:
> Hello Daniel, > I have been faced with the same situation many times and have tried many tactics to get home safely. I do have the storm jib and had never used until a few weeks ago. Of course I would never attempt to change under way either. We had forecast of 20 mph winds gusting much higher at times so I decided to try the storm jib before I launched. I did not reef the main, and thought I'd give it a try. I was so pleasantly surprised at how well the boat handled. I easily panic at times with the working jib but that never happened with the storm jib in place. I was so much more relaxed. My best speeds were hovering around 9 mph and running 4 to 5 mph on a beat. I sail alo
Apples and oranges here to some extent, and, I have experienced on a heavier keelboat (International Folkboat) the benefits of having a proper storm jib when main is fully reefed and boat is still overpowered with working jib on. We swapped to the storm jib as winds were getting consistently upwards of 17-18 knots, probably some gusts over 20, and all of a sudden the boat was fun sailing again...! cheers, John S. As Jerry suggests for the M17, On 08/18/2013 01:56 PM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Guess I better check to make sure I do have a storm jib for my 17'. All the time I have had it I did not think that perhaps a storm jib would be the ticket for beating to windward in 25+ knot headwinds. Interesting. Tom B M-17 #258
On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 11:48 PM, Jack Zukowski <john7jack@aol.com> wrote:
Hello again Daniel, The storm jib came with the m-15 when I bought it. I believe it is from the same sail maker that did the main and working jib, but without looking I can't swear to that. From my limited experience with the storm jib I would now fly it at anything over 15 mph winds. It just makes it easier. I didn't panic as I usually do when the wind gusted up. I am not a racer, I just enjoy going out and having a good day with enough time on my hands to drink a beer or two! The storm jib gave me that time.! All in all I was able to relax a lot more and I really do feel that the boat pointed better for me and I also feel that sailing with just the main is not an issue at all. The m-15 handles wonderfully with just the main out there. I don't want to be out there when the winds are exceeding 25 mph but sometime we have no choice. At 70 years old I don't like to be fighting for my life and sometime I think I am! I'll be out there tomorrow bitchin' there ain't enough wind, and the next day afraid to launch because there is too much wind! But I aways go! I feel the m-15 is the bmw of small sailboats, they do handle so beautifully .
Jack 2010 m-15
On Aug 17, 2013, at 11:11 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Very interesting.
Where did you get your storm jib? Also, I guess one issue for me and for you is knowing ahead of time about putting it on. Now, I suppose I could have anchored and put it on then. Interesting.
Daniel On Aug 17, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Jack Zukowski <john7jack@aol.com> wrote:
Hello Daniel, I have been faced with the same situation many times and have tried many tactics to get home safely. I do have the storm jib and had never used until a few weeks ago. Of course I would never attempt to change under way either. We had forecast of 20 mph winds gusting much higher at times so I decided to try the storm jib before I launched. I did not reef the main, and thought I'd give it a try. I was so pleasantly surprised at how well the boat handled. I easily panic at times with the working jib but that never happened with the storm jib in place. I was so much more relaxed. My best speeds were hovering around 9 mph and running 4 to 5 mph on a beat. I sail alone 90% of the time and managing the working jib and main in heavy air can be a challenge for me. The storm jib made it refreshing. I actually felt the M-15 pointed better with the storm jib, but my experience is still very limited with it, time will tell. I've waited it out many times afraid to try to come in and had come in after dark many times waiting for the wind to die. I just love it I guess!
Jack Zukowski in Connecticut Still no name...2010 M-15
On Aug 17, 2013, at 8:23 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Montypals:
Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited it out.
I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A learning experience today.
Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Not to mention thaat you won't blow out your working jib that way! jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 6:01 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: heavy air in an M15
Apples and oranges here to some extent, and, I have experienced on a heavier keelboat (International Folkboat) the benefits of having a proper storm jib when main is fully reefed and boat is still overpowered with working jib on. We swapped to the storm jib as winds were getting consistently upwards of 17-18 knots, probably some gusts over 20, and all of a sudden the boat was fun sailing again...!
cheers, John S.
As Jerry suggests for the M17,
On 08/18/2013 01:56 PM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Guess I better check to make sure I do have a storm jib for my 17'. All the time I have had it I did not think that perhaps a storm jib would be the ticket for beating to windward in 25+ knot headwinds. Interesting. Tom B M-17 #258
On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 11:48 PM, Jack Zukowski <john7jack@aol.com> wrote:
Hello again Daniel, The storm jib came with the m-15 when I bought it. I believe it is from the same sail maker that did the main and working jib, but without looking I can't swear to that. From my limited experience with the storm jib I would now fly it at anything over 15 mph winds. It just makes it easier. I didn't panic as I usually do when the wind gusted up. I am not a racer, I just enjoy going out and having a good day with enough time on my hands to drink a beer or two! The storm jib gave me that time.! All in all I was able to relax a lot more and I really do feel that the boat pointed better for me and I also feel that sailing with just the main is not an issue at all. The m-15 handles wonderfully with just the main out there. I don't want to be out there when the winds are exceeding 25 mph but sometime we have no choice. At 70 years old I don't like to be fighting for my life and sometime I think I am! I'll be out there tomorrow bitchin' there ain't enough wind, and the next day afraid to launch because there is too much wind! But I aways go! I feel the m-15 is the bmw of small sailboats, they do handle so beautifully .
Jack 2010 m-15
On Aug 17, 2013, at 11:11 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Very interesting.
Where did you get your storm jib? Also, I guess one issue for me and for you is knowing ahead of time about putting it on. Now, I suppose I could have anchored and put it on then. Interesting.
Daniel On Aug 17, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Jack Zukowski <john7jack@aol.com> wrote:
Hello Daniel, I have been faced with the same situation many times and have tried many tactics to get home safely. I do have the storm jib and had never used until a few weeks ago. Of course I would never attempt to change under way either. We had forecast of 20 mph winds gusting much higher at times so I decided to try the storm jib before I launched. I did not reef the main, and thought I'd give it a try. I was so pleasantly surprised at how well the boat handled. I easily panic at times with the working jib but that never happened with the storm jib in place. I was so much more relaxed. My best speeds were hovering around 9 mph and running 4 to 5 mph on a beat. I sail alone 90% of the time and managing the working jib and main in heavy air can be a challenge for me. The storm jib made it refreshing. I actually felt the M-15 pointed better with the storm jib, but my experience is still very limited with it, time will tell. I've waited it out many times afraid to try to come in and had come in after dark many times waiting for the wind to die. I just love it I guess!
Jack Zukowski in Connecticut Still no name...2010 M-15
On Aug 17, 2013, at 8:23 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Montypals:
Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited it out.
I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A learning experience today.
Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
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I had about 22 inches cut off the foot of a spare M 15 jib. The result is a jib about 65 % of the working jib. Work good when winds are 18+ knots. I recently was given an old jib from a 14' Javelin. It also is about 60% of a working M 15 jib. The sheet lead is a couple of inches high but still works good. I have been told that a jib from a 15' West Wright Potter makes a good intermediate jib but have no experience with one. There is no need for a heavier weight material in my experience. I tried a storm jib in about 22-23 knots. It created a lee helm because it set so far forward in the fore triangle. With a double reefed main the center of effort was moved too far forward for good sailing. On Aug 17, 2013 11:13 PM, "Daniel Rich" <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Very interesting.
Where did you get your storm jib? Also, I guess one issue for me and for you is knowing ahead of time about putting it on. Now, I suppose I could have anchored and put it on then. Interesting.
Daniel On Aug 17, 2013, at 6:18 PM, Jack Zukowski <john7jack@aol.com> wrote:
Hello Daniel, I have been faced with the same situation many times and have tried many tactics to get home safely. I do have the storm jib and had never used until a few weeks ago. Of course I would never attempt to change under way either. We had forecast of 20 mph winds gusting much higher at times so I decided to try the storm jib before I launched. I did not reef the main, and thought I'd give it a try. I was so pleasantly surprised at how well the boat handled. I easily panic at times with the working jib but that never happened with the storm jib in place. I was so much more relaxed. My best speeds were hovering around 9 mph and running 4 to 5 mph on a beat. I sail alone 90% of the time and managing the working jib and main in heavy air can be a challenge for me. The storm jib made it refreshing. I actually felt the M-15 pointed better with the storm jib, but my experience is still very limited with it, time will tell. I've waited it out many times afraid to try to come in and had come in after dark many times waiting for the wind to die. I just love it I guess!
Jack Zukowski in Connecticut Still no name...2010 M-15
On Aug 17, 2013, at 8:23 PM, Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Montypals:
Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited it out.
I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A learning experience today.
Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
Aloha, That guy was me...finally connecting with a chance to sail on an M15. Thanks again Daniel for a "spirited" introduction! I was *very* impressed with the seaworthiness of the boat. A mostly dry ride even in pounding wind chop and whitecaps...if we got splashed it was wind-blown water, not the fault of the boat. Despite some intense conditions and being overpowered in the gusts even with the double reef (due to the standard jib being too much sail at that point), I was never actually worried that the boat was at risk of swamping or capsizing, and the hull (and deck) construction was clearly solid as a rock. I think we did experience what I read about here some thread back a while, regarding rigs with no backstay: rounding up in a gust softens the forestay, which softens the jib, which then catches more wind than it would otherwise when falling off, which leads to getting blown down some, which needs rounding up to avoid more blow-down, which softens the forestay...and so on. In the windiest part of the sail - when we determined it was safest to drop sails and motor - this was a cycle that we couldn't get out of with the standard jib. Sounds like with the storm jib, it is little enough sail that this problem goes away? cheers, John S. On 08/17/2013 05:23 PM, Daniel Rich wrote:
Montypals:
Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited it out.
I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A learning experience today.
Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I looked on Sailflow for yesterday, and at Nick's at the time of our difficulties it was blowing gusts to 24 knots. That would explain some of our problems for sure. Going forward I will get a tiller extension so that I can sit on the gunnel and forward, and replace the sails! Given where I sail I may want the sails cut a bit flatter than usual. I'll discuss with my sail guy. Daniel On Aug 18, 2013, at 9:16 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Aloha,
That guy was me...finally connecting with a chance to sail on an M15. Thanks again Daniel for a "spirited" introduction!
I was *very* impressed with the seaworthiness of the boat. A mostly dry ride even in pounding wind chop and whitecaps...if we got splashed it was wind-blown water, not the fault of the boat.
Despite some intense conditions and being overpowered in the gusts even with the double reef (due to the standard jib being too much sail at that point), I was never actually worried that the boat was at risk of swamping or capsizing, and the hull (and deck) construction was clearly solid as a rock.
I think we did experience what I read about here some thread back a while, regarding rigs with no backstay: rounding up in a gust softens the forestay, which softens the jib, which then catches more wind than it would otherwise when falling off, which leads to getting blown down some, which needs rounding up to avoid more blow-down, which softens the forestay...and so on. In the windiest part of the sail - when we determined it was safest to drop sails and motor - this was a cycle that we couldn't get out of with the standard jib. Sounds like with the storm jib, it is little enough sail that this problem goes away?
cheers, John S.
On 08/17/2013 05:23 PM, Daniel Rich wrote:
Montypals:
Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited it out.
I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A learning experience today.
Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Woo hoo! No wonder my hat brim was flapping... :-) Also want to give props to Daniel for being well prepared, knowing his boat and its capabilities and knowing the typical and potential ups and downs and gotchas of the location (Tomales Bay). cheers, John S. On 08/18/2013 10:17 AM, Daniel Rich wrote:
I looked on Sailflow for yesterday, and at Nick's at the time of our difficulties it was blowing gusts to 24 knots. That would explain some of our problems for sure.
Going forward I will get a tiller extension so that I can sit on the gunnel and forward, and replace the sails! Given where I sail I may want the sails cut a bit flatter than usual. I'll discuss with my sail guy.
Daniel On Aug 18, 2013, at 9:16 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Aloha,
That guy was me...finally connecting with a chance to sail on an M15. Thanks again Daniel for a "spirited" introduction!
I was *very* impressed with the seaworthiness of the boat. A mostly dry ride even in pounding wind chop and whitecaps...if we got splashed it was wind-blown water, not the fault of the boat.
Despite some intense conditions and being overpowered in the gusts even with the double reef (due to the standard jib being too much sail at that point), I was never actually worried that the boat was at risk of swamping or capsizing, and the hull (and deck) construction was clearly solid as a rock.
I think we did experience what I read about here some thread back a while, regarding rigs with no backstay: rounding up in a gust softens the forestay, which softens the jib, which then catches more wind than it would otherwise when falling off, which leads to getting blown down some, which needs rounding up to avoid more blow-down, which softens the forestay...and so on. In the windiest part of the sail - when we determined it was safest to drop sails and motor - this was a cycle that we couldn't get out of with the standard jib. Sounds like with the storm jib, it is little enough sail that this problem goes away?
cheers, John S.
On 08/17/2013 05:23 PM, Daniel Rich wrote:
Montypals:
Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited it out.
I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A learning experience today.
Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
You are too kind. We definitely had some excitement out there! Daniel On Aug 18, 2013, at 12:31 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Woo hoo! No wonder my hat brim was flapping... :-)
Also want to give props to Daniel for being well prepared, knowing his boat and its capabilities and knowing the typical and potential ups and downs and gotchas of the location (Tomales Bay).
cheers, John S.
On 08/18/2013 10:17 AM, Daniel Rich wrote:
I looked on Sailflow for yesterday, and at Nick's at the time of our difficulties it was blowing gusts to 24 knots. That would explain some of our problems for sure.
Going forward I will get a tiller extension so that I can sit on the gunnel and forward, and replace the sails! Given where I sail I may want the sails cut a bit flatter than usual. I'll discuss with my sail guy.
Daniel On Aug 18, 2013, at 9:16 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Aloha,
That guy was me...finally connecting with a chance to sail on an M15. Thanks again Daniel for a "spirited" introduction!
I was *very* impressed with the seaworthiness of the boat. A mostly dry ride even in pounding wind chop and whitecaps...if we got splashed it was wind-blown water, not the fault of the boat.
Despite some intense conditions and being overpowered in the gusts even with the double reef (due to the standard jib being too much sail at that point), I was never actually worried that the boat was at risk of swamping or capsizing, and the hull (and deck) construction was clearly solid as a rock.
I think we did experience what I read about here some thread back a while, regarding rigs with no backstay: rounding up in a gust softens the forestay, which softens the jib, which then catches more wind than it would otherwise when falling off, which leads to getting blown down some, which needs rounding up to avoid more blow-down, which softens the forestay...and so on. In the windiest part of the sail - when we determined it was safest to drop sails and motor - this was a cycle that we couldn't get out of with the standard jib. Sounds like with the storm jib, it is little enough sail that this problem goes away?
cheers, John S.
On 08/17/2013 05:23 PM, Daniel Rich wrote:
Montypals:
Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited it out.
I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A learning experience today.
Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I think you got that figured out correctly, John. A storm jib does't need anywhere as much forestay tension to keep it from sagging, which makes it fuller. The forestay tension comes from the mainsheet tension, so when you ease the main in a puff to keep the boat from rounding up it lets the forestay sag off. Probably an intermediate jib, maybe about 60%, would be a great sail for a 15 in marginal conditions- more poop than a storm jib and save a lot of wear and tear on the working jib. jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 9:16 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: heavy air in an M15
Aloha,
That guy was me...finally connecting with a chance to sail on an M15. Thanks again Daniel for a "spirited" introduction!
I was *very* impressed with the seaworthiness of the boat. A mostly dry ride even in pounding wind chop and whitecaps...if we got splashed it was wind-blown water, not the fault of the boat.
Despite some intense conditions and being overpowered in the gusts even with the double reef (due to the standard jib being too much sail at that point), I was never actually worried that the boat was at risk of swamping or capsizing, and the hull (and deck) construction was clearly solid as a rock.
I think we did experience what I read about here some thread back a while, regarding rigs with no backstay: rounding up in a gust softens the forestay, which softens the jib, which then catches more wind than it would otherwise when falling off, which leads to getting blown down some, which needs rounding up to avoid more blow-down, which softens the forestay...and so on. In the windiest part of the sail - when we determined it was safest to drop sails and motor - this was a cycle that we couldn't get out of with the standard jib. Sounds like with the storm jib, it is little enough sail that this problem goes away?
cheers, John S.
On 08/17/2013 05:23 PM, Daniel Rich wrote:
Montypals:
Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited it out.
I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A learning experience today.
Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Jerry, Would you advise a 60% jib for a 17 or does the backstay setup change the requirements. I sail in 18+ knot winds a lot. Would flatter sails be of use in an M17? Would they not have enough power in lighter air at that point? Fair winds, Tom B #258 On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 12:22 PM, jerry montgomery < jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> wrote:
I think you got that figured out correctly, John. A storm jib does't need anywhere as much forestay tension to keep it from sagging, which makes it fuller. The forestay tension comes from the mainsheet tension, so when you ease the main in a puff to keep the boat from rounding up it lets the forestay sag off.
Probably an intermediate jib, maybe about 60%, would be a great sail for a 15 in marginal conditions- more poop than a storm jib and save a lot of wear and tear on the working jib.
jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.** xmission.com <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 9:16 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: heavy air in an M15
Aloha,
That guy was me...finally connecting with a chance to sail on an M15. Thanks again Daniel for a "spirited" introduction!
I was *very* impressed with the seaworthiness of the boat. A mostly dry ride even in pounding wind chop and whitecaps...if we got splashed it was wind-blown water, not the fault of the boat.
Despite some intense conditions and being overpowered in the gusts even with the double reef (due to the standard jib being too much sail at that point), I was never actually worried that the boat was at risk of swamping or capsizing, and the hull (and deck) construction was clearly solid as a rock.
I think we did experience what I read about here some thread back a while, regarding rigs with no backstay: rounding up in a gust softens the forestay, which softens the jib, which then catches more wind than it would otherwise when falling off, which leads to getting blown down some, which needs rounding up to avoid more blow-down, which softens the forestay...and so on. In the windiest part of the sail - when we determined it was safest to drop sails and motor - this was a cycle that we couldn't get out of with the standard jib. Sounds like with the storm jib, it is little enough sail that this problem goes away?
cheers, John S.
On 08/17/2013 05:23 PM, Daniel Rich wrote:
Montypals:
Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited it out.
I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A learning experience today.
Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design ------------------------------**-------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.**com <http://sociocracyconsulting.com>
The backstay helps a lot, especially if you have an adjustor, but in 18 to 20 knots the 17 will sail better and more comfortably with a smaller jib, like maybe an 80% with a 3/4 or 7/8 hoist, so when reefed it will be about the same height as a reefed main. jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Buzzi" <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 2:02 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: heavy air in an M15
Jerry, Would you advise a 60% jib for a 17 or does the backstay setup change the requirements. I sail in 18+ knot winds a lot. Would flatter sails be of use in an M17? Would they not have enough power in lighter air at that point? Fair winds, Tom B #258
On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 12:22 PM, jerry montgomery < jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> wrote:
I think you got that figured out correctly, John. A storm jib does't need anywhere as much forestay tension to keep it from sagging, which makes it fuller. The forestay tension comes from the mainsheet tension, so when you ease the main in a puff to keep the boat from rounding up it lets the forestay sag off.
Probably an intermediate jib, maybe about 60%, would be a great sail for a 15 in marginal conditions- more poop than a storm jib and save a lot of wear and tear on the working jib.
jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.** xmission.com <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 9:16 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: heavy air in an M15
Aloha,
That guy was me...finally connecting with a chance to sail on an M15. Thanks again Daniel for a "spirited" introduction!
I was *very* impressed with the seaworthiness of the boat. A mostly dry ride even in pounding wind chop and whitecaps...if we got splashed it was wind-blown water, not the fault of the boat.
Despite some intense conditions and being overpowered in the gusts even with the double reef (due to the standard jib being too much sail at that point), I was never actually worried that the boat was at risk of swamping or capsizing, and the hull (and deck) construction was clearly solid as a rock.
I think we did experience what I read about here some thread back a while, regarding rigs with no backstay: rounding up in a gust softens the forestay, which softens the jib, which then catches more wind than it would otherwise when falling off, which leads to getting blown down some, which needs rounding up to avoid more blow-down, which softens the forestay...and so on. In the windiest part of the sail - when we determined it was safest to drop sails and motor - this was a cycle that we couldn't get out of with the standard jib. Sounds like with the storm jib, it is little enough sail that this problem goes away?
cheers, John S.
On 08/17/2013 05:23 PM, Daniel Rich wrote:
Montypals:
Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited it out.
I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A learning experience today.
Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design ------------------------------**-------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.**com <http://sociocracyconsulting.com>
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So I guess a properly lengthened tack pennant would be a good idea to be sure the jib rode at the same height as the main. Thanks, Tom B On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 6:15 PM, jerry montgomery <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org
wrote:
The backstay helps a lot, especially if you have an adjustor, but in 18 to 20 knots the 17 will sail better and more comfortably with a smaller jib, like maybe an 80% with a 3/4 or 7/8 hoist, so when reefed it will be about the same height as a reefed main.
jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Buzzi" <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.** xmission.com <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 2:02 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: heavy air in an M15
Jerry,
Would you advise a 60% jib for a 17 or does the backstay setup change the requirements. I sail in 18+ knot winds a lot. Would flatter sails be of use in an M17? Would they not have enough power in lighter air at that point? Fair winds, Tom B #258
On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 12:22 PM, jerry montgomery < jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> wrote:
I think you got that figured out correctly, John. A storm jib does't
need anywhere as much forestay tension to keep it from sagging, which makes it fuller. The forestay tension comes from the mainsheet tension, so when you ease the main in a puff to keep the boat from rounding up it lets the forestay sag off.
Probably an intermediate jib, maybe about 60%, would be a great sail for a 15 in marginal conditions- more poop than a storm jib and save a lot of wear and tear on the working jib.
jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Schinnerer" < john@eco-living.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.** xmission.com <montgomery_boats@mailman.**xmission.com<montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 9:16 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: heavy air in an M15
Aloha,
That guy was me...finally connecting with a chance to sail on an M15. Thanks again Daniel for a "spirited" introduction!
I was *very* impressed with the seaworthiness of the boat. A mostly dry ride even in pounding wind chop and whitecaps...if we got splashed it was wind-blown water, not the fault of the boat.
Despite some intense conditions and being overpowered in the gusts even with the double reef (due to the standard jib being too much sail at that point), I was never actually worried that the boat was at risk of swamping or capsizing, and the hull (and deck) construction was clearly solid as a rock.
I think we did experience what I read about here some thread back a while, regarding rigs with no backstay: rounding up in a gust softens the forestay, which softens the jib, which then catches more wind than it would otherwise when falling off, which leads to getting blown down some, which needs rounding up to avoid more blow-down, which softens the forestay...and so on. In the windiest part of the sail - when we determined it was safest to drop sails and motor - this was a cycle that we couldn't get out of with the standard jib. Sounds like with the storm jib, it is little enough sail that this problem goes away?
cheers, John S.
On 08/17/2013 05:23 PM, Daniel Rich wrote:
Montypals:
Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited it out.
I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A learning experience today.
Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
--
John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design ------------------------------****-------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.****com <http://sociocracyconsulting.**com<http://sociocracyconsulting.com>
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Tom: I have a 60% "storm" jib for my M17. Just a thin blade with a high cut clew. Combined with a double reefed main, it is good up to around 25 to 30 knots of wind. Have never encountered more wind than that. I don't use it often, but wouldn't want to venture too far from home without it. In that much wind, even with those little scraps of sail, I'll be heeled 20 degrees and going hull speed or better as clocked by the GPS. If running in that much wind, you could probably get 5 knots out of the storm jib alone and be in good control doing it. I've seen 2 knots from bare poles but we were just drifting and didn't have much steerage. If need be, a person can always drop all sail and let the boat fend for itself while going forward for a sail change. Boat may flop around some, but won't come to any harm. Always one hand for yourself and one for the boat. Once the jibs are swapped, back to the main, raise it enough to tie in the 2nd reef, then hoist it. The boat will come to life again while you hoist the storm jib. Then back to the cockpit to sheet them in and you will be off and running. When the wind eases off, you can always swap them back out. On Aug 18, 2013, at 4:02 PM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Jerry, Would you advise a 60% jib for a 17 or does the backstay setup change the requirements. I sail in 18+ knot winds a lot. Would flatter sails be of use in an M17? Would they not have enough power in lighter air at that point? Fair winds, Tom B #258
On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 12:22 PM, jerry montgomery < jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> wrote:
I think you got that figured out correctly, John. A storm jib does't need anywhere as much forestay tension to keep it from sagging, which makes it fuller. The forestay tension comes from the mainsheet tension, so when you ease the main in a puff to keep the boat from rounding up it lets the forestay sag off.
Probably an intermediate jib, maybe about 60%, would be a great sail for a 15 in marginal conditions- more poop than a storm jib and save a lot of wear and tear on the working jib.
jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.** xmission.com <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 9:16 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: heavy air in an M15
Aloha,
That guy was me...finally connecting with a chance to sail on an M15. Thanks again Daniel for a "spirited" introduction!
I was *very* impressed with the seaworthiness of the boat. A mostly dry ride even in pounding wind chop and whitecaps...if we got splashed it was wind-blown water, not the fault of the boat.
Despite some intense conditions and being overpowered in the gusts even with the double reef (due to the standard jib being too much sail at that point), I was never actually worried that the boat was at risk of swamping or capsizing, and the hull (and deck) construction was clearly solid as a rock.
I think we did experience what I read about here some thread back a while, regarding rigs with no backstay: rounding up in a gust softens the forestay, which softens the jib, which then catches more wind than it would otherwise when falling off, which leads to getting blown down some, which needs rounding up to avoid more blow-down, which softens the forestay...and so on. In the windiest part of the sail - when we determined it was safest to drop sails and motor - this was a cycle that we couldn't get out of with the standard jib. Sounds like with the storm jib, it is little enough sail that this problem goes away?
cheers, John S.
On 08/17/2013 05:23 PM, Daniel Rich wrote:
Montypals:
Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited it out.
I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A learning experience today.
Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design ------------------------------**-------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.**com <http://sociocracyconsulting.com>
Howard, Thanks for the ideas. I bet that 60% looks fine (yar) when it is set and pulling. Puts me in mind of a flying jib on the forestay of a cutter rig. I will check my sail inventory and see if I may have one of those. If not, it sounds like a good bet for being useful down here off Corpus Christi. My friend just built himself a boat, "Nancy's China" is the model name. [So named because the designer while eating out with a friend was challenged to design a boat that could be built for the price of one of Nancy Reagan's place settings.] I guess she was quite the hostess when it came to setting a fancy table. Anyway, I wanted to show him what, say, 15 Knots of wind felt like so he would be sure to allow for the force of it when rigging his new boat. I hit on the idea of holding my handheld knot meter right in front of my 24 inch fan set on high speed. It read right around 15-16 knots. When placing one's face right in front of the fan, it was surprising how much power the wind has even at those speeds. I think he got the picture. Fair winds, Tom B #258 On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 9:00 AM, Howard Audsley <haudsley@tranquility.net>wrote:
Tom:
I have a 60% "storm" jib for my M17. Just a thin blade with a high cut clew. Combined with a double reefed main, it is good up to around 25 to 30 knots of wind. Have never encountered more wind than that. I don't use it often, but wouldn't want to venture too far from home without it. In that much wind, even with those little scraps of sail, I'll be heeled 20 degrees and going hull speed or better as clocked by the GPS. If running in that much wind, you could probably get 5 knots out of the storm jib alone and be in good control doing it. I've seen 2 knots from bare poles but we were just drifting and didn't have much steerage.
If need be, a person can always drop all sail and let the boat fend for itself while going forward for a sail change. Boat may flop around some, but won't come to any harm. Always one hand for yourself and one for the boat. Once the jibs are swapped, back to the main, raise it enough to tie in the 2nd reef, then hoist it. The boat will come to life again while you hoist the storm jib. Then back to the cockpit to sheet them in and you will be off and running. When the wind eases off, you can always swap them back out.
On Aug 18, 2013, at 4:02 PM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Jerry, Would you advise a 60% jib for a 17 or does the backstay setup change the requirements. I sail in 18+ knot winds a lot. Would flatter sails be of use in an M17? Would they not have enough power in lighter air at that point? Fair winds, Tom B #258
On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 12:22 PM, jerry montgomery < jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> wrote:
I think you got that figured out correctly, John. A storm jib does't need anywhere as much forestay tension to keep it from sagging, which makes it fuller. The forestay tension comes from the mainsheet tension, so when you ease the main in a puff to keep the boat from rounding up it lets the forestay sag off.
Probably an intermediate jib, maybe about 60%, would be a great sail for a 15 in marginal conditions- more poop than a storm jib and save a lot of wear and tear on the working jib.
jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Schinnerer" < john@eco-living.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.** xmission.com <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com>> Sent: Sunday, August 18, 2013 9:16 AM Subject: Re: M_Boats: heavy air in an M15
Aloha,
That guy was me...finally connecting with a chance to sail on an M15. Thanks again Daniel for a "spirited" introduction!
I was *very* impressed with the seaworthiness of the boat. A mostly dry ride even in pounding wind chop and whitecaps...if we got splashed it
was
wind-blown water, not the fault of the boat.
Despite some intense conditions and being overpowered in the gusts even with the double reef (due to the standard jib being too much sail at that point), I was never actually worried that the boat was at risk of swamping or capsizing, and the hull (and deck) construction was clearly solid as a rock.
I think we did experience what I read about here some thread back a while, regarding rigs with no backstay: rounding up in a gust softens the forestay, which softens the jib, which then catches more wind than it would otherwise when falling off, which leads to getting blown down some, which needs rounding up to avoid more blow-down, which softens the forestay...and so on. In the windiest part of the sail - when we determined it was safest to drop sails and motor - this was a cycle that we couldn't get out of with the standard jib. Sounds like with the storm jib, it is little enough sail that this problem goes away?
cheers, John S.
On 08/17/2013 05:23 PM, Daniel Rich wrote:
Montypals:
Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited it out.
I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A learning experience today.
Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design ------------------------------**-------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.**com <http://sociocracyconsulting.com>
RE HEAVING TO I normally heaved to with the jib backwinded but did not always like the amount of fore reaching that resuled. I concluded that with a main up and a backwinded jib I was just sailing forward at a very slow rate. This winter I tried the Pardys preferred method. With the jib doused and a double reefed main almost 100% of the fore reaching was eliminated. The boat drifted almost dead down wind with the helm a little to leeward. It made less half a knot whereas with the backwinded jib it would reach forward at one knot +/-. On Aug 17, 2013 8:24 PM, "Daniel Rich" <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Montypals:
Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited it out.
I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A learning experience today.
Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
So, this is a heave to with the main? I have never tried that. Do tell. Daniel On Aug 22, 2013, at 6:16 PM, Michael Murphy <mikeandpaula48@gmail.com> wrote:
RE HEAVING TO
I normally heaved to with the jib backwinded but did not always like the amount of fore reaching that resuled. I concluded that with a main up and a backwinded jib I was just sailing forward at a very slow rate.
This winter I tried the Pardys preferred method. With the jib doused and a double reefed main almost 100% of the fore reaching was eliminated. The boat drifted almost dead down wind with the helm a little to leeward. It made less half a knot whereas with the backwinded jib it would reach forward at one knot +/-. On Aug 17, 2013 8:24 PM, "Daniel Rich" <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Montypals:
Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited it out.
I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A learning experience today.
Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
Hadn't heard of the Pardy's method(s) so did some quick forum surfing...some excerpts: "In the Pardeys book and DVD, their definition of "heaving to" includes "NO FORWARD MOTION", not 1 knot or 3 knots or whatever, but sliding sideways in the slick, with the bows pointing at some 60 degrees to the wind." Value of the "slick" is that it mitigates breaking seas coming at the boat so having it directly up-weather is most valuable. The gist seems to be about various ways to achieve this, depending on conditions and boat involved, for example: "Every wind strength requires a different balance between main and foresail. As a crude rule of thumb, I find that the stronger the wind, the less foresail I need. By the time it is blowing F8 the main (with three reefs)should be as tight as possible and the genoa dispensed with." The above from a forum for some specific boat types that are not Montgomerys...I found all kinds of threads about peoples' experiences in their various kinds of boats and the bottom line seems to be "practice with your particular boat and sails to find out what works best before you actually have to do it in a serious situation." One of the methods mentioned is in fact no foresail, a maximum reefed main, tiller to leeward as usual. Would be something to test with M-boats to see how it balances... cheers, John S. On 08/22/2013 06:50 PM, Daniel Rich wrote:
So, this is a heave to with the main? I have never tried that. Do tell.
Daniel
On Aug 22, 2013, at 6:16 PM, Michael Murphy <mikeandpaula48@gmail.com> wrote:
RE HEAVING TO
I normally heaved to with the jib backwinded but did not always like the amount of fore reaching that resuled. I concluded that with a main up and a backwinded jib I was just sailing forward at a very slow rate.
This winter I tried the Pardys preferred method. With the jib doused and a double reefed main almost 100% of the fore reaching was eliminated. The boat drifted almost dead down wind with the helm a little to leeward. It made less half a knot whereas with the backwinded jib it would reach forward at one knot +/-. On Aug 17, 2013 8:24 PM, "Daniel Rich" <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Montypals:
Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited it out.
I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A learning experience today.
Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Side note on "the slick". Commercial fishermen on sailboats that had to heave to used to suspend bags off the windward side of their craft in foul weather. The bags would drip fish oil onto the surface of the sea and form a slick which helped damped the waves assaulting the hull at those times. Tom B M-17 #258 On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 12:15 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net>wrote:
Hadn't heard of the Pardy's method(s) so did some quick forum surfing...some excerpts:
"In the Pardeys book and DVD, their definition of "heaving to" includes "NO FORWARD MOTION", not 1 knot or 3 knots or whatever, but sliding sideways in the slick, with the bows pointing at some 60 degrees to the wind."
Value of the "slick" is that it mitigates breaking seas coming at the boat so having it directly up-weather is most valuable.
The gist seems to be about various ways to achieve this, depending on conditions and boat involved, for example:
"Every wind strength requires a different balance between main and foresail. As a crude rule of thumb, I find that the stronger the wind, the less foresail I need. By the time it is blowing F8 the main (with three reefs)should be as tight as possible and the genoa dispensed with."
The above from a forum for some specific boat types that are not Montgomerys...I found all kinds of threads about peoples' experiences in their various kinds of boats and the bottom line seems to be "practice with your particular boat and sails to find out what works best before you actually have to do it in a serious situation."
One of the methods mentioned is in fact no foresail, a maximum reefed main, tiller to leeward as usual. Would be something to test with M-boats to see how it balances...
cheers, John S.
On 08/22/2013 06:50 PM, Daniel Rich wrote:
So, this is a heave to with the main? I have never tried that. Do tell.
Daniel
On Aug 22, 2013, at 6:16 PM, Michael Murphy <mikeandpaula48@gmail.com> wrote:
RE HEAVING TO
I normally heaved to with the jib backwinded but did not always like the amount of fore reaching that resuled. I concluded that with a main up and a backwinded jib I was just sailing forward at a very slow rate.
This winter I tried the Pardys preferred method. With the jib doused and a double reefed main almost 100% of the fore reaching was eliminated. The boat drifted almost dead down wind with the helm a little to leeward. It made less half a knot whereas with the backwinded jib it would reach forward at one knot +/-. On Aug 17, 2013 8:24 PM, "Daniel Rich" <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Montypals:
Let's talk heavy air. Today I sailed with a nice guy interested in M15 boats. He was a pretty good sailor. We sailed out of Nick's Cove Tomales like I often do. The wind really kicked up as it can. I eventually double reefed, and had my standard working jib. The gusts must have gotten to at least 20 knots plus and the wind waves were quite big. Nonetheless, the M15 stayed quite dry despite pounding down the waves. Very impressive. And it was really pounding. But, I definitely struggled. Eventually it got to the point where even with the jib honked down I could not make progress to windward where I needed to go back to the dock. And I was getting closer to the windward shore. Every time I tried to point the boat would heel pretty good and rather than move forward would just dump air. At this point I figured that I could douse the jib, but would not be able to make progress to windward that way. Will a double reefed M15 point at all with a doused jib? I needed to go straight upwind to get home, so pointing was important. I don't have a storm jib, but even if I did, I would not be confident going on the deck under bare poles and hoisting it. Without the jib up I can't heave to. Defeated I dropped the sails and motored back. Even that was a challenge with heavy waves and windage. I steered straight into the wind so that the boat would track well, and it did. My 2HP Honda had no problem. I was worried about what to do if the motor conked out. I guess I would have anchored quickly so that the boat did not end up on the shore, and waited it out.
I did feel very confident that the M15 would not swamp and keep me safe, and it did. Very good boat. In the future I will make sure to bring more fuel, although I did have a full tank, and noted it to be about 1/2 full when I returned. In thinking about it I do believe the anchor is an important safety tool to have on board also for just this reason. A learning experience today.
Daniel Rich M15 #208 "Kestrel" danielgrich@gmail.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design ------------------------------**-------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.**com <http://sociocracyconsulting.com>
participants (11)
-
Bill Day -
Daniel Rich -
Howard Audsley -
Jack Zukowski -
jerry montgomery -
John Schinnerer -
Michael Murphy -
Rick Davies -
Stan Susman -
stevetrapp -
Thomas Buzzi