Re: M15 Furler Headstay mast connections
My boat (just purchased) came with a furling jib as an option but I immediately removed it. I may experiment with it down the road just for fun, but I would only rely on a downhaul in any weather where it really mattered. A jammed furled is just too great a risk in my opinion. If you’re going out on the ocean just put up the smallest jib the “heavy weather jib”, often mistakenly called a “storm jib”, and eliminate the need to reef or go forward at all. You’ll be surprised how little performance you lose and safety will be vastly improved, as well as sail shape over a reefed sail, regardless of who made it. If you don’t have the heavy weather jib, you should have one anyway. You’d be better spending money on a well made heavy weather jib than a lighter reefable roller furling jib and all the crap that goes with it. And you’ll save money to boot! Just my opinion! Rusty 2005 M15 “Sparrow” www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
Interesting. I had one but never used it! I probably should have used it routinely where I sailed, but did not. I have never used a furler so know nothing about them. My SCAMP is a single sail with 3 reef points, so that changes the equation. I found the heave to on the M15 to be like magic. I had a reef hook on the gooseneck that made reefing the M15 so easy. I can “park” the SCAMP, and that works pretty well. I drop the sail into the lazy jacks when reefing, and can get that done in like 60-90 seconds. Daniel
On Jan 13, 2023, at 7:53 AM, Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
My boat (just purchased) came with a furling jib as an option but I immediately removed it. I may experiment with it down the road just for fun, but I would only rely on a downhaul in any weather where it really mattered. A jammed furled is just too great a risk in my opinion. If you’re going out on the ocean just put up the smallest jib the “heavy weather jib”, often mistakenly called a “storm jib”, and eliminate the need to reef or go forward at all. You’ll be surprised how little performance you lose and safety will be vastly improved, as well as sail shape over a reefed sail, regardless of who made it. If you don’t have the heavy weather jib, you should have one anyway. You’d be better spending money on a well made heavy weather jib than a lighter reefable roller furling jib and all the crap that goes with it. And you’ll save money to boot!
Just my opinion!
Rusty 2005 M15 “Sparrow”
www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
Another thought on reducing sail without a the hassle n potential jamming of a roller fuller- do you have one reef or two in the main? I switched to two reefs when replacing sails, and that second reef really calms things down much more dramatically than a headsail change- it gets rid of more sail and moves the center of effort way lower, and really settles down the helm. I’ll also second Rusty on using a smaller jib (85% in our case, vs the stock 128%) when you know it’s going to be howling- which our lake often is. Not only reduces sail area a bit, but also reduces the flogging and sheet pressure of handling the jib in a breeze. Since we started using baby jib on windy days, I’ve hardly used the second reef- but knowing it is there really builds confidence that you could handle more breeze on the way home if you had to. Sometime the wind drops and I wish I had the bigger jib on, but by then things are calm enough I could swap it out- but never do, cause really it’s not big a deal to sail a quarter knot slower… Curious, for those who are using roller furling and maybe a larger jib, what range of effective jib sizes you are getting? If using a Genoa bigger than the stock 128% are folks moving sheets back n out to the rail? I imagine you gain a bit off the wind in lighter air (hmm, daydreaming of a drifter that would do the same thing…) but loose pointing ability? And how small can you go before the cut of the sail (and the windage of the big furled sail on the luff) make the jib effectively useless? My gut is that 85% to 128% is about the effective range for a jib on an m15, with a smaller true storm jib really only valuable for heaving to or riding with a drogue in weather I don’t want to be out in, and a larger jib doing little a drifter wouldn’t do for light air sailing. Curious what others think! And now wondering about a whole nother discussion- set up n pros n cons of a drifter vs a spinnaker on an m15…. Hmm- going back to Larry’s initial quandary re ocean sailing, maybe a smaller hanked jib, a large 2nd reef in the main and a moderate sized drifter that could be handled from the cockpit for off wind speed in light/moderate airs would be a good combo for knowing you could handle stronger winds and yet getting home with some speed if they drop all without leaving the cockpit- just depends how much light air upwind performance matters in your waters (that would be the weak link in this setup)… might save the cost, fuss, windage, weight and risk of jamming of a furler. But now to work, where way too many of the documents start with a sentence awfully like Lawrence’s toungue in check opening to the email that started this chain… Alex On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 8:03 AM Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Interesting. I had one but never used it! I probably should have used it routinely where I sailed, but did not. I have never used a furler so know nothing about them. My SCAMP is a single sail with 3 reef points, so that changes the equation. I found the heave to on the M15 to be like magic. I had a reef hook on the gooseneck that made reefing the M15 so easy. I can “park” the SCAMP, and that works pretty well. I drop the sail into the lazy jacks when reefing, and can get that done in like 60-90 seconds.
Daniel
On Jan 13, 2023, at 7:53 AM, Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
My boat (just purchased) came with a furling jib as an option but I immediately removed it. I may experiment with it down the road just for fun, but I would only rely on a downhaul in any weather where it really mattered. A jammed furled is just too great a risk in my opinion. If you’re going out on the ocean just put up the smallest jib the “heavy weather jib”, often mistakenly called a “storm jib”, and eliminate the need to reef or go forward at all. You’ll be surprised how little performance you lose and safety will be vastly improved, as well as sail shape over a reefed sail, regardless of who made it. If you don’t have the heavy weather jib, you should have one anyway. You’d be better spending money on a well made heavy weather jib than a lighter reefable roller furling jib and all the crap that goes with it. And you’ll save money to boot!
Just my opinion!
Rusty 2005 M15 “Sparrow”
www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
If using a Genoa bigger than the stock 128% are folks moving sheets back n out to the rail?
A sail larger than a 128% requires installing job sheet tracks and blocks on the toerails along with a clear on the combing. At least $500-600 in parts in addition to needing to gaining access to the underside of the combing to install the cleats
going back to Larry’s initial quandary re ocean sailing
Michael Mann discussed his M15 sail setup for going to Hawaii in his book "A Little Breeze to the West". :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com On Fri, Jan 13, 2023, 08:52 Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
Another thought on reducing sail without a the hassle n potential jamming of a roller fuller- do you have one reef or two in the main? I switched to two reefs when replacing sails, and that second reef really calms things down much more dramatically than a headsail change- it gets rid of more sail and moves the center of effort way lower, and really settles down the helm.
I’ll also second Rusty on using a smaller jib (85% in our case, vs the stock 128%) when you know it’s going to be howling- which our lake often is. Not only reduces sail area a bit, but also reduces the flogging and sheet pressure of handling the jib in a breeze. Since we started using baby jib on windy days, I’ve hardly used the second reef- but knowing it is there really builds confidence that you could handle more breeze on the way home if you had to. Sometime the wind drops and I wish I had the bigger jib on, but by then things are calm enough I could swap it out- but never do, cause really it’s not big a deal to sail a quarter knot slower…
Curious, for those who are using roller furling and maybe a larger jib, what range of effective jib sizes you are getting? If using a Genoa bigger than the stock 128% are folks moving sheets back n out to the rail? I imagine you gain a bit off the wind in lighter air (hmm, daydreaming of a drifter that would do the same thing…) but loose pointing ability? And how small can you go before the cut of the sail (and the windage of the big furled sail on the luff) make the jib effectively useless? My gut is that 85% to 128% is about the effective range for a jib on an m15, with a smaller true storm jib really only valuable for heaving to or riding with a drogue in weather I don’t want to be out in, and a larger jib doing little a drifter wouldn’t do for light air sailing. Curious what others think! And now wondering about a whole nother discussion- set up n pros n cons of a drifter vs a spinnaker on an m15….
Hmm- going back to Larry’s initial quandary re ocean sailing, maybe a smaller hanked jib, a large 2nd reef in the main and a moderate sized drifter that could be handled from the cockpit for off wind speed in light/moderate airs would be a good combo for knowing you could handle stronger winds and yet getting home with some speed if they drop all without leaving the cockpit- just depends how much light air upwind performance matters in your waters (that would be the weak link in this setup)… might save the cost, fuss, windage, weight and risk of jamming of a furler.
But now to work, where way too many of the documents start with a sentence awfully like Lawrence’s toungue in check opening to the email that started this chain…
Alex
Damn autocorrect got ahold of my typing!! job = jib clear = cleat AI is smart... ;-) :-( :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com On Fri, Jan 13, 2023, 09:03 Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
If using a Genoa bigger than the stock 128% are folks moving sheets back n out to the rail?
A sail larger than a 128% requires installing job sheet tracks and blocks on the toerails along with a clear on the combing. At least $500-600 in parts in addition to needing to gaining access to the underside of the combing to install the cleats
going back to Larry’s initial quandary re ocean sailing
Michael Mann discussed his M15 sail setup for going to Hawaii in his book "A Little Breeze to the West".
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com
On Fri, Jan 13, 2023, 08:52 Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
Another thought on reducing sail without a the hassle n potential jamming of a roller fuller- do you have one reef or two in the main? I switched to two reefs when replacing sails, and that second reef really calms things down much more dramatically than a headsail change- it gets rid of more sail and moves the center of effort way lower, and really settles down the helm.
I’ll also second Rusty on using a smaller jib (85% in our case, vs the stock 128%) when you know it’s going to be howling- which our lake often is. Not only reduces sail area a bit, but also reduces the flogging and sheet pressure of handling the jib in a breeze. Since we started using baby jib on windy days, I’ve hardly used the second reef- but knowing it is there really builds confidence that you could handle more breeze on the way home if you had to. Sometime the wind drops and I wish I had the bigger jib on, but by then things are calm enough I could swap it out- but never do, cause really it’s not big a deal to sail a quarter knot slower…
Curious, for those who are using roller furling and maybe a larger jib, what range of effective jib sizes you are getting? If using a Genoa bigger than the stock 128% are folks moving sheets back n out to the rail? I imagine you gain a bit off the wind in lighter air (hmm, daydreaming of a drifter that would do the same thing…) but loose pointing ability? And how small can you go before the cut of the sail (and the windage of the big furled sail on the luff) make the jib effectively useless? My gut is that 85% to 128% is about the effective range for a jib on an m15, with a smaller true storm jib really only valuable for heaving to or riding with a drogue in weather I don’t want to be out in, and a larger jib doing little a drifter wouldn’t do for light air sailing. Curious what others think! And now wondering about a whole nother discussion- set up n pros n cons of a drifter vs a spinnaker on an m15….
Hmm- going back to Larry’s initial quandary re ocean sailing, maybe a smaller hanked jib, a large 2nd reef in the main and a moderate sized drifter that could be handled from the cockpit for off wind speed in light/moderate airs would be a good combo for knowing you could handle stronger winds and yet getting home with some speed if they drop all without leaving the cockpit- just depends how much light air upwind performance matters in your waters (that would be the weak link in this setup)… might save the cost, fuss, windage, weight and risk of jamming of a furler.
But now to work, where way too many of the documents start with a sentence awfully like Lawrence’s toungue in check opening to the email that started this chain…
Alex
I do actually have blocks and swivels on the combing already... On Friday, January 13, 2023 at 09:04:29 AM PST, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
If using a Genoa bigger than the stock 128% are folks moving sheets back n out to the rail?
A sail larger than a 128% requires installing job sheet tracks and blocks on the toerails along with a clear on the combing. At least $500-600 in parts in addition to needing to gaining access to the underside of the combing to install the cleats
going back to Larry’s initial quandary re ocean sailing
Michael Mann discussed his M15 sail setup for going to Hawaii in his book "A Little Breeze to the West". :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: former owner SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com On Fri, Jan 13, 2023, 08:52 Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote:
Another thought on reducing sail without a the hassle n potential jamming of a roller fuller- do you have one reef or two in the main? I switched to two reefs when replacing sails, and that second reef really calms things down much more dramatically than a headsail change- it gets rid of more sail and moves the center of effort way lower, and really settles down the helm.
I’ll also second Rusty on using a smaller jib (85% in our case, vs the stock 128%) when you know it’s going to be howling- which our lake often is. Not only reduces sail area a bit, but also reduces the flogging and sheet pressure of handling the jib in a breeze. Since we started using baby jib on windy days, I’ve hardly used the second reef- but knowing it is there really builds confidence that you could handle more breeze on the way home if you had to. Sometime the wind drops and I wish I had the bigger jib on, but by then things are calm enough I could swap it out- but never do, cause really it’s not big a deal to sail a quarter knot slower…
Curious, for those who are using roller furling and maybe a larger jib, what range of effective jib sizes you are getting? If using a Genoa bigger than the stock 128% are folks moving sheets back n out to the rail? I imagine you gain a bit off the wind in lighter air (hmm, daydreaming of a drifter that would do the same thing…) but loose pointing ability? And how small can you go before the cut of the sail (and the windage of the big furled sail on the luff) make the jib effectively useless? My gut is that 85% to 128% is about the effective range for a jib on an m15, with a smaller true storm jib really only valuable for heaving to or riding with a drogue in weather I don’t want to be out in, and a larger jib doing little a drifter wouldn’t do for light air sailing. Curious what others think! And now wondering about a whole nother discussion- set up n pros n cons of a drifter vs a spinnaker on an m15….
Hmm- going back to Larry’s initial quandary re ocean sailing, maybe a smaller hanked jib, a large 2nd reef in the main and a moderate sized drifter that could be handled from the cockpit for off wind speed in light/moderate airs would be a good combo for knowing you could handle stronger winds and yet getting home with some speed if they drop all without leaving the cockpit- just depends how much light air upwind performance matters in your waters (that would be the weak link in this setup)… might save the cost, fuss, windage, weight and risk of jamming of a furler.
But now to work, where way too many of the documents start with a sentence awfully like Lawrence’s toungue in check opening to the email that started this chain…
Alex
Oh yes I'm talking about situations where I'm fully loaded with a weeks worth of gear, Just passed a much larger boat that ran aground and is blown down sideways, it's gusty, the waves are 5 foot, breaking, I already have 2 reefs in the main and maybe even using the outboard, and the jib is still too big and while I'm holding it together, It just feels like I'm 1-2 waves from disaster and my mouth is as dry as the sahara. It's here that I'm thinking of the furler. And yes, I've been there and would like to not repeat it. On Friday, January 13, 2023 at 08:52:59 AM PST, Alex Conley <conley.alex@gmail.com> wrote: Another thought on reducing sail without a the hassle n potential jamming of a roller fuller- do you have one reef or two in the main? I switched to two reefs when replacing sails, and that second reef really calms things down much more dramatically than a headsail change- it gets rid of more sail and moves the center of effort way lower, and really settles down the helm. I’ll also second Rusty on using a smaller jib (85% in our case, vs the stock 128%) when you know it’s going to be howling- which our lake often is. Not only reduces sail area a bit, but also reduces the flogging and sheet pressure of handling the jib in a breeze. Since we started using baby jib on windy days, I’ve hardly used the second reef- but knowing it is there really builds confidence that you could handle more breeze on the way home if you had to. Sometime the wind drops and I wish I had the bigger jib on, but by then things are calm enough I could swap it out- but never do, cause really it’s not big a deal to sail a quarter knot slower… Curious, for those who are using roller furling and maybe a larger jib, what range of effective jib sizes you are getting? If using a Genoa bigger than the stock 128% are folks moving sheets back n out to the rail? I imagine you gain a bit off the wind in lighter air (hmm, daydreaming of a drifter that would do the same thing…) but loose pointing ability? And how small can you go before the cut of the sail (and the windage of the big furled sail on the luff) make the jib effectively useless? My gut is that 85% to 128% is about the effective range for a jib on an m15, with a smaller true storm jib really only valuable for heaving to or riding with a drogue in weather I don’t want to be out in, and a larger jib doing little a drifter wouldn’t do for light air sailing. Curious what others think! And now wondering about a whole nother discussion- set up n pros n cons of a drifter vs a spinnaker on an m15…. Hmm- going back to Larry’s initial quandary re ocean sailing, maybe a smaller hanked jib, a large 2nd reef in the main and a moderate sized drifter that could be handled from the cockpit for off wind speed in light/moderate airs would be a good combo for knowing you could handle stronger winds and yet getting home with some speed if they drop all without leaving the cockpit- just depends how much light air upwind performance matters in your waters (that would be the weak link in this setup)… might save the cost, fuss, windage, weight and risk of jamming of a furler. But now to work, where way too many of the documents start with a sentence awfully like Lawrence’s toungue in check opening to the email that started this chain… Alex On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 8:03 AM Daniel Rich <danielgrich@gmail.com> wrote:
Interesting. I had one but never used it! I probably should have used it routinely where I sailed, but did not. I have never used a furler so know nothing about them. My SCAMP is a single sail with 3 reef points, so that changes the equation. I found the heave to on the M15 to be like magic. I had a reef hook on the gooseneck that made reefing the M15 so easy. I can “park” the SCAMP, and that works pretty well. I drop the sail into the lazy jacks when reefing, and can get that done in like 60-90 seconds.
Daniel
On Jan 13, 2023, at 7:53 AM, Rusty Knorr via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
My boat (just purchased) came with a furling jib as an option but I immediately removed it. I may experiment with it down the road just for fun, but I would only rely on a downhaul in any weather where it really mattered. A jammed furled is just too great a risk in my opinion. If you’re going out on the ocean just put up the smallest jib the “heavy weather jib”, often mistakenly called a “storm jib”, and eliminate the need to reef or go forward at all. You’ll be surprised how little performance you lose and safety will be vastly improved, as well as sail shape over a reefed sail, regardless of who made it. If you don’t have the heavy weather jib, you should have one anyway. You’d be better spending money on a well made heavy weather jib than a lighter reefable roller furling jib and all the crap that goes with it. And you’ll save money to boot!
Just my opinion!
Rusty 2005 M15 “Sparrow”
www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
participants (5)
-
Alex Conley -
Daniel Rich -
Dave Scobie -
Lawrence Winiarski -
Rusty Knorr