Re: M_Boats: help with slug order
Thanks Thomas, Howard, Paint4real and Ron for the pointer to Sailrite! I should have just looked in the archives - I remember sailrite mentioned here before. Thanks for patiently writing it for me again though. Thanks to Howard too, for the ideas on sail handling/raising, etc. I have to admit that I knew that the 150 genny was likely to be overkill the day I went out singlehanding, but I also have to admit that I was hoping for an exciting, wild ride that day. Most of the three-hour trip was just brisk breeze and some mild breezes too, but when the breeze came up for that one stretch - I got just what I was looking for. I was laughing out loud at a couple of points, just because I'd missed the excitement of hang-on-for-dear-life sailing over these last years. I do have a regular (not storm) jib that I use normally. It was ridiculously fun being over the top that day, but was a little worried about breaking the boat somehow since I'm still so new to it, and she is old. I do need to practice my reefing system too, my main has one only one line of reef points. Danelle "Ceto" M17 #378 Ketchikan, AK http://web.mac.com/anniesark9/Site/Sailing_Ceto.html
Dear Montgomery sailors, I would first like to introduce you to the (new to me) M-17, Hobbit, hull number 349, 1982 model. She arrived yesterday here in Madison, WI after a long trip from Colorado. Some points on her history: she was not in the water since 2002, and probably not more than 6-7 times since 1999. I suspect she was never for extended periods in the water, since there is no bottom paint. She came with a working jib, 150% genoa, wood toerails, knotmeter and depth sounder. The centerboard moves freely, and there are few minor dings. I was quite impatient to try her out, and went to the lake today. It turned out to be quite an adventure, not the sailing itself, where Hobbit was very well behaved, but the rigging and derigging, which were quite a challenge. So now I have a lot of questions, which I hope some of you can help answer. Many of these questions are showing clear general sailing ignorance, so if you just feel like ignoring them, and/ or pointing me to a book, that's fine. a) Most people have mentioned raising the mast as a difficulty, but before that I could not figure out how to put the long screw into the foot of the mast without two people. The problem was that with the mast in the rear cradle, even pulled back to the right position, the cabin hatch was in the way and I was not able to lower the foot of the mast low enough to get the screw into both the mast and its support. With two people, I had to raise the mast to an angle before someone else fitted the screw. How do people who singlehandedly rig solve this? On my Compac 16, the mast base had a cut in the shape of an L, and the mast had two pins sticking out of it, which slid into the "L". Has anybody tried to replace the mast base with a similar arrangement, which does not require you to go to the base before raising the mast, or is it a fairly insecure attachement what I just described? b) The halyards on Hobbit are different from everything I've ever seen before. Namely, half of the halyard - the one attached to the actual sails -- is made of steel cable, of length about equal to that of the mast. The other half, the one coming down along the mast from the top, is usual rope. Is this common? I haven't been very happy with this arrangement today, so unless there is a good reason for this, I would have liked to switch to an all-rope halyard. c) How do people use the halyard cleats on the mast? For some reason these cleats, instead of having two equal length "horns", have one long and one short. That makes it hard to do the standard locking knot I used to do on other boats. d) After de-rigging, what do you do with the many steel stays (forestay, backstay, sidestays, spreaders), halyards, and other stuff that comes along the mast? I spent today the better part of an hour just tying all these with sail ties, but this is very time consuming. If I am to rig and derig in 1/2 hour (today, by the way, rigging took 3 hours!), I need a better solution to this. On my Compac 16 I just left all the stays in the cockpit for short trips, and things were fine. e) The rudder shows signs that it might begin to crack, or at least just the varnish on it. Have people done something about this? f) How are the genoa sheets run? I had them going through the blocks furthest aft, then around the winches, and into the clam cleats. This worked alright, but each tack was quite some work. On the Compac 16, I had the jib sheets going to cam cleats, which were much easier to tack single-handedly -- release one, pull on the other. g) Some longer term maintenance projects: I will need to redo all the outside wood trim, which is peeling badly. Is it teak? Should I just use a teak cleaner to remove the old varnish, and then teak oil? What do people use for cleaning and waxing the hull? h) There was a discussion a while back about the balsa core rotting. I haven't detected any soft spots in the deck, and since it was in dry climate and out of the water, I suspect it is intact. How urgent is it to rebed all the deck fittings, if the boat will be kept out of the water when not sailing? Should I do it now, or as a winter project, or wait to see perhaps there is no problem ever? i) There is a small crack in the gelcoat around the rear centerboard screw (from drawings I remember seing, the one which acts as a stop for the cb at its lowest position). Should I worry, or is this normal? j) Is there a wiring diagram for the boat available anywhere? I found a whole bunch of cut wires in the cabin, and the electrical connection at the bottom of the mast is cut off, so I'll need to do a lot of detective work if I am ever to make the electrics work. That's it for now. I am sure that after sailing a couple more times I'll have many more questions, but any help with these is appreciated. Thanks, Andrei.
Andrei, Congratulations on your M17! I'll attempt answers at some of your questions and others will have more to input as well, I'm sure. My responses are based on our 1988 model (same deck as yours). a) Most people have mentioned raising the mast as a difficulty, ... With the sliding hatch closed the mast crutch should hold the mast high enough to allow the mast bolt to fit into place with minimal difficulty. My guess is your mast crutch is too short. b) The halyards on Hobbit are different from everything .... The wire-rope halyards were common on our vintage boats. With the new low-stretch ropes the wire is no longer needed. To switch to all-rope halyards check the sheave at the top of the mast to see if it will accept a suitable size rope. If the sheave is sized for wire, you can buy replacement sheaves sized for rope. I think Bob Eeg might sell these. c) How do people use the halyard cleats on the mast? .... Ours has 2 long horn cleats. The one on the starboard side is for the main halyard. The jib halyard passes through blocks at the base of the mast and routes back to the winch on the port side of the cabin top. The winch gives you mechanical advantage to tighten the luff of the headsail. d) After de-rigging, what do you do with the many steel stays .... I think everyone has there own system for this... something like laying the top shrouds along side the mast in the mast crutch, folding the spreaders to the mast, and looping the excess wire in big loops, securing all of this to the mast with bungee cords. e) The rudder shows signs that it might begin to crack, or at least just the varnish on it. Have people done something about this? I think this is a common problem with old rudders. Some have rebuilt their rudders, others have opted for replacement kickup rudders like the one from IdaSailor.com. From what I have seen, you need to be pretty skillful at wood working to splice new wood into the rudder. f) How are the genoa sheets run?.... Does your teak toe rail have a genoa track on it? If so, you can use sliding cars. If not (the genoa track was an option) it mounts on top of the teak toe rail and uses the same bolt holes as the toe rail. It wouldn't be too difficult to add. g) Some longer term maintenance projects: I will need to redo all the outside wood trim ... The factory wood, except for the hatch boards, was all teak. Unless it is cracked badly, teak usually cleans up pretty good with teak cleaner and light sanding. For protection some prefer teak oil and other a hard finish like Cetol. h) There was a discussion a while back about the balsa core rotting.... You really want to watch for this as repairs can be very expensive. I believe the suggested maintenance schedule is to re-bed all deck hardware every 5 years. j) Is there a wiring diagram for the boat available anywhere?.... The boats I've seen with electrical systems all have similar components but different installations. I think you will need to make your own wiring diagram. Many on this list have electronics/electrical backgrounds and can offer help if you get stuck. Again, Congratulations on you 17! Randy Graves M17 #410
Andrei, Congrats on the new boat. Same year as my "new" M-23. I can understand all the questions as I sure have had my share in getting mine ready to launch. Mine also has wire to rope halyards which the previous owner replaced with new wire to rope. Since I have them and they are new, I will use them but if I ever replace them again it would be with low stretch rope. I just launched my 23 last night and she is in the water for the first time in 15 years! I believe the 23's were designed to raise the mast from the bow. I know both ways will work. I raised mine before launch using the main boom at 90 degrees to the mast with the topping lift attached to the mast head and end of boom, and raised it up using the main sheet blocks. The lower shrouds helped keep the mast straight as it went up and a friend held the boom straight in the air until the mast was high enough. It worked pretty well although I did have a couple of helpers. I too have a mast cleat that is short on one end. Honestly, I'm not sure why this is but I don't care for it. It isn't much of an issue for me once the mast is up because all lines run aft. But when I do use it (esp. for mast raising/lowering) I'm repeatedly frustrated that you can't get more than one or two wraps around the short side. The thing is generally rendered useless after securing one line. I've watched many people launch sailboats and one common mistake that I have seen in raising and lowering masts is not tightening and securing all halyards and lines to the mast when raising or lowering. The only thing you want to have to deal with is the stays and shrouds. Everything else gets in the way when the mast is going up or down. I've seen guys get the mast up only to have loose halyards all tangled up in the rigging at the top. I've also seen halyards go up and over the sheaves in trying to untangle them from the deck. Good luck on the new boat Jeff M-23 Clarity ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrei Caldararu" <andreic@math.wisc.edu> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 9:36 PM Subject: M_Boats: Help with M-17
Dear Montgomery sailors,
I would first like to introduce you to the (new to me) M-17, Hobbit, hull number 349, 1982 model. She arrived yesterday here in Madison, WI after a long trip from Colorado. Some points on her history: she was not in the water since 2002, and probably not more than 6-7 times since 1999. I suspect she was never for extended periods in the water, since there is no bottom paint. She came with a working jib, 150% genoa, wood toerails, knotmeter and depth sounder. The centerboard moves freely, and there are few minor dings.
I was quite impatient to try her out, and went to the lake today. It turned out to be quite an adventure, not the sailing itself, where Hobbit was very well behaved, but the rigging and derigging, which were quite a challenge. So now I have a lot of questions, which I hope some of you can help answer. Many of these questions are showing clear general sailing ignorance, so if you just feel like ignoring them, and/ or pointing me to a book, that's fine.
a) Most people have mentioned raising the mast as a difficulty, but before that I could not figure out how to put the long screw into the foot of the mast without two people. The problem was that with the mast in the rear cradle, even pulled back to the right position, the cabin hatch was in the way and I was not able to lower the foot of the mast low enough to get the screw into both the mast and its support. With two people, I had to raise the mast to an angle before someone else fitted the screw. How do people who singlehandedly rig solve this? On my Compac 16, the mast base had a cut in the shape of an L, and the mast had two pins sticking out of it, which slid into the "L". Has anybody tried to replace the mast base with a similar arrangement, which does not require you to go to the base before raising the mast, or is it a fairly insecure attachement what I just described?
b) The halyards on Hobbit are different from everything I've ever seen before. Namely, half of the halyard - the one attached to the actual sails -- is made of steel cable, of length about equal to that of the mast. The other half, the one coming down along the mast from the top, is usual rope. Is this common? I haven't been very happy with this arrangement today, so unless there is a good reason for this, I would have liked to switch to an all-rope halyard.
c) How do people use the halyard cleats on the mast? For some reason these cleats, instead of having two equal length "horns", have one long and one short. That makes it hard to do the standard locking knot I used to do on other boats.
d) After de-rigging, what do you do with the many steel stays (forestay, backstay, sidestays, spreaders), halyards, and other stuff that comes along the mast? I spent today the better part of an hour just tying all these with sail ties, but this is very time consuming. If I am to rig and derig in 1/2 hour (today, by the way, rigging took 3 hours!), I need a better solution to this. On my Compac 16 I just left all the stays in the cockpit for short trips, and things were fine.
e) The rudder shows signs that it might begin to crack, or at least just the varnish on it. Have people done something about this?
f) How are the genoa sheets run? I had them going through the blocks furthest aft, then around the winches, and into the clam cleats. This worked alright, but each tack was quite some work. On the Compac 16, I had the jib sheets going to cam cleats, which were much easier to tack single-handedly -- release one, pull on the other.
g) Some longer term maintenance projects: I will need to redo all the outside wood trim, which is peeling badly. Is it teak? Should I just use a teak cleaner to remove the old varnish, and then teak oil? What do people use for cleaning and waxing the hull?
h) There was a discussion a while back about the balsa core rotting. I haven't detected any soft spots in the deck, and since it was in dry climate and out of the water, I suspect it is intact. How urgent is it to rebed all the deck fittings, if the boat will be kept out of the water when not sailing? Should I do it now, or as a winter project, or wait to see perhaps there is no problem ever?
i) There is a small crack in the gelcoat around the rear centerboard screw (from drawings I remember seing, the one which acts as a stop for the cb at its lowest position). Should I worry, or is this normal?
j) Is there a wiring diagram for the boat available anywhere? I found a whole bunch of cut wires in the cabin, and the electrical connection at the bottom of the mast is cut off, so I'll need to do a lot of detective work if I am ever to make the electrics work.
That's it for now. I am sure that after sailing a couple more times I'll have many more questions, but any help with these is appreciated.
Thanks,
Andrei.
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Andrei: as stated already such halyard arrangements were more common 20+ years ago. the family cheoy lee 32' had a 50/50 jib halyard and a 100% stainless main halyard. the 'nice' result of the main's halyard was its compact size allowed it to wrap around a drum within the mainsail wench (no long & bulk coil of line on the mast) ... the negative was as the halyards aged they developed 'spurs' that were NASTY on the hands. if your 50/50 halyards show no 'spurs' or rust there is no reason to replace at this time. best put the money towards other urgent items as you refit the boat. dave scobie M15 #288 - SCRED visit Scred's www-site: http://www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred --- On Tue, 7/1/08, Andrei Caldararu <andreic@math.wisc.edu> wrote: From: Andrei Caldararu <andreic@math.wisc.edu> Subject: M_Boats: Help with M-17 To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 12:36 AM b) The halyards on Hobbit are different from everything I've ever seen before. Namely, half of the halyard - the one attached to the actual sails -- is made of steel cable, of length about equal to that of the mast. The other half, the one coming down along the mast from the top, is usual rope. Is this common? I haven't been very happy with this arrangement today, so unless there is a good reason for this, I would have liked to switch to an all-rope halyard.
Dave: So who was the wench on that boat, or did U mean winch? Gary. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 1, 2008, at 6:21 PM, W David Scobie <wdscobie@yahoo.com> wrote:
Andrei:
as stated already such halyard arrangements were more common 20+ years ago.
the family cheoy lee 32' had a 50/50 jib halyard and a 100% stainless main halyard. the 'nice' result of the main's halyard was its compact size allowed it to wrap around a drum within the mainsail wench (no long & bulk coil of line on the mast) ... the negative was as the halyards aged they developed 'spurs' that were NASTY on the hands.
if your 50/50 halyards show no 'spurs' or rust there is no reason to replace at this time. best put the money towards other urgent items as you refit the boat.
dave scobie M15 #288 - SCRED visit Scred's www-site: http://www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred
--- On Tue, 7/1/08, Andrei Caldararu <andreic@math.wisc.edu> wrote: From: Andrei Caldararu <andreic@math.wisc.edu> Subject: M_Boats: Help with M-17 To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 12:36 AM
b) The halyards on Hobbit are different from everything I've ever seen before. Namely, half of the halyard - the one attached to the actual sails -- is made of steel cable, of length about equal to that of the mast. The other half, the one coming down along the mast from the top, is usual rope. Is this common? I haven't been very happy with this arrangement today, so unless there is a good reason for this, I would have liked to switch to an all-rope halyard.
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Hi Danelle, Just so you don't think slugs are the unanimous choice of the group, there are a few of us who prefer boltrope. I grew up (many, many years ago) sailing Thistles and other boats with boltrope mains. Storm Petrel was my first real experience with slugs. I tried them, and think I gave them a fair chance, but left them out when I ordered a new main. I let the boat drift on the starboard "tack" to raise the main. As Howard says, she just sails slowly along with the mainsheet loose. A shot of silicone spray in mast slot in the spring, after cleaning out dirt and spider nests, helps a bit. Bill Riker M15 - #184 Storm Petrel -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Danelle Landis Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 10:08 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: help with slug order Thanks Thomas, Howard, Paint4real and Ron for the pointer to Sailrite! I should have just looked in the archives - I remember sailrite mentioned here before. Thanks for patiently writing it for me again though. Thanks to Howard too, for the ideas on sail handling/raising, etc. I have to admit that I knew that the 150 genny was likely to be overkill the day I went out singlehanding, but I also have to admit that I was hoping for an exciting, wild ride that day. Most of the three-hour trip was just brisk breeze and some mild breezes too, but when the breeze came up for that one stretch - I got just what I was looking for. I was laughing out loud at a couple of points, just because I'd missed the excitement of hang-on-for-dear-life sailing over these last years. I do have a regular (not storm) jib that I use normally. It was ridiculously fun being over the top that day, but was a little worried about breaking the boat somehow since I'm still so new to it, and she is old. I do need to practice my reefing system too, my main has one only one line of reef points. Danelle "Ceto" M17 #378 Ketchikan, AK http://web.mac.com/anniesark9/Site/Sailing_Ceto.html _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
I'm with Bill on this. I prefer the bolt rope, and having gone through three Montgomerys, all with bolt ropes, I've grown accustomed to raising and lowering them. Nothing in particular against slugs (had them on other boats). Just another pov. t
Real sailors and boy racers use boltropes . Slugs and slides are for old men and sissy girls. Some of us even keep our boats rigged and in the water with such non-macho devices as lazy jacks, roller furling jibs and halliards led to the cabin top. What fun is it to just pull off the sail cover, haul up the main and unroll the jib? Seriously, 30 years ago when I was racing Snipe class boats and had teenage daughters to crew for me, boltropes were no problem but.............. these days, I am most often singlehanding and at almost 70 years old, I find it difficult to feed the boltrope with one hand and haul the halliard with the other while the boat is rolling in the wakes of jetskis and power cruisers. Damn, it's Hell getting old. Ancient Mariner M17 # 14 Griselda
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 15:03:01 -0700> From: openboatt@gmail.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: help with slug order> > I'm with Bill on this. I prefer the bolt rope, and having gone> through three Montgomerys, all with bolt ropes, I've grown accustomed> to raising and lowering them. Nothing in particular against slugs> (had them on other boats). Just another pov. t> > _______________________________________________> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
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Something to remember about slugs is that they leak a lot of air! Slowwwww Jerry jerrymontgomery.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Smith" <openboatt@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 3:03 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: help with slug order
I'm with Bill on this. I prefer the bolt rope, and having gone through three Montgomerys, all with bolt ropes, I've grown accustomed to raising and lowering them. Nothing in particular against slugs (had them on other boats). Just another pov. t
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Many of us have known you to leak your fair share of air... t
participants (10)
-
Andrei Caldararu -
Chris and Jeff Packer -
Danelle Landis -
Gary M Hyde -
jerry -
RandyG -
Ronnie Keeler -
Tom Smith -
W David Scobie -
William B. Riker