Re: M_Boats: mastgatr (was Re: Reefing (was Re: 15M v 17M)
John. Contact Tom at mastgates.com He can make one for you. I just stack the slugs on SWEET PEA as a prior owner closed the slot and moved it to below, yes below, the boom. :: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 10:52 AM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net wrote:
Forgot to say...if anyone has any examples of fixing this issue...
My larger reefing problem is that my mast has a big (4" or more) cutaway in the sail track for slugs to go in - probably because the original sail was boltrope not slugs. And there's no "gate" on it that I can close. So reefing is a PITA at the tack because lowering main means taking out slug stop above cutaway, some slugs come out, some need to go below stop, I've got to feed them back in one side or another, then put the stop back in.
With tack lines I won't have to lower main quite as far so maybe one less slug to deal with.
But really I need to fabricate a gate for that area so there's no need for the slug stop, the slugs stay in and just stack up as low as possible.
That's the challenge with the tack lines - on a 2nd reef the tack cringle may be sitting on a big stack of slugs, can't come down towards the boom as far as one might like.
cheers, John
The mast slot on my M17 was moved below the boom too and, ironically, that is exactly why I use a reefing hook instead of the o.e. tack line setup. The tack lines do not support the boom so the mainsheet pulls it down and the sliding gooseneck comes out of the slot--not good when you're sailing solo in high winds and choppy seas. In theory, I could prevent that with one of those track stop devices, but in practice I have to tighten the track stop with a set of pliers before it can resist the considerable downward force generated by the mainsheet--hand tightening simply will not work. With the reefing hook, the boom is automatically supported by halyard tension on the mainsail luff--problem solved. Or you could convert to a fixed gooseneck. -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of Dave Scobie Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 2:00 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: mastgatr (was Re: Reefing (was Re: 15M v 17M) John. Contact Tom at mastgates.com He can make one for you. I just stack the slugs on SWEET PEA as a prior owner closed the slot and moved it to below, yes below, the boom. :: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 10:52 AM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net wrote:
Forgot to say...if anyone has any examples of fixing this issue...
My larger reefing problem is that my mast has a big (4" or more) cutaway in the sail track for slugs to go in - probably because the original sail was boltrope not slugs. And there's no "gate" on it that I can close. So reefing is a PITA at the tack because lowering main means taking out slug stop above cutaway, some slugs come out, some need to go below stop, I've got to feed them back in one side or another, then put the stop back in.
With tack lines I won't have to lower main quite as far so maybe one less slug to deal with.
But really I need to fabricate a gate for that area so there's no need for the slug stop, the slugs stay in and just stack up as low as possible.
That's the challenge with the tack lines - on a 2nd reef the tack cringle may be sitting on a big stack of slugs, can't come down towards the boom as far as one might like.
cheers, John
I use a slot stop on SWEET PEA to keep the gooseneck from falling out the 'bottom of the mast slot'. Never had issue with the boom sliding down and knocking the stop out of the track. The stop as a metal washer, nylon washwasher and a wingnut. When reefed the gooseneck is supported by the halyard being in opposition to the tack line. Wonder what is happening with your boat's mast and/or stop that causes it to slip? :: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 12:37 PM <swwheatley@comcast.net wrote:
The mast slot on my M17 was moved below the boom too and, ironically, that is exactly why I use a reefing hook instead of the o.e. tack line setup. The tack lines do not support the boom so the mainsheet pulls it down and the sliding gooseneck comes out of the slot--not good when you're sailing solo in high winds and choppy seas. In theory, I could prevent that with one of those track stop devices, but in practice I have to tighten the track stop with a set of pliers before it can resist the considerable downward force generated by the mainsheet--hand tightening simply will not work. With the reefing hook, the boom is automatically supported by halyard tension on the mainsail luff--problem solved. Or you could convert to a fixed gooseneck.
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of Dave Scobie Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 2:00 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: mastgatr (was Re: Reefing (was Re: 15M v 17M)
John.
Contact Tom at mastgates.com He can make one for you.
I just stack the slugs on SWEET PEA as a prior owner closed the slot and moved it to below, yes below, the boom.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 10:52 AM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net wrote:
Forgot to say...if anyone has any examples of fixing this issue...
My larger reefing problem is that my mast has a big (4" or more) cutaway in the sail track for slugs to go in - probably because the original sail was boltrope not slugs. And there's no "gate" on it that I can close. So reefing is a PITA at the tack because lowering main means taking out slug stop above cutaway, some slugs come out, some need to go below stop, I've got to feed them back in one side or another, then put the stop back in.
With tack lines I won't have to lower main quite as far so maybe one less slug to deal with.
But really I need to fabricate a gate for that area so there's no need for the slug stop, the slugs stay in and just stack up as low as possible.
That's the challenge with the tack lines - on a 2nd reef the tack cringle may be sitting on a big stack of slugs, can't come down towards the boom as far as one might like.
cheers, John
Hi Dave, How would you compare the setup of having the slot below the boom to having a mast gate? I'm trying to decide which to do for my M15. Moving the slot is much easier and cheaper since the factory M15 slot was just pried open and can be set back with a rubber mallet. Tow annoying things that can happen when reefing my M15 are the slugs falling out of the slot, and loosing the mainsheet up in the shrouds. To fix the latter I'm thinking to get a slightly longer main halyard so I can fix the end near the cleat, and it can't get lost. I don't want the popular modern setup of having the main halyard at the cockpit, because it's just one extra thing to rig for a daysail, one extra hole in the deck, etc. Sincerely, Tyler ----- Original Message ----- From: "scoobscobie" <scoobscobie@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 12:47:20 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: mastgatr (was Re: Reefing (was Re: 15M v 17M) I use a slot stop on SWEET PEA to keep the gooseneck from falling out the 'bottom of the mast slot'. Never had issue with the boom sliding down and knocking the stop out of the track. The stop as a metal washer, nylon washwasher and a wingnut. When reefed the gooseneck is supported by the halyard being in opposition to the tack line. Wonder what is happening with your boat's mast and/or stop that causes it to slip? :: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 12:37 PM <swwheatley@comcast.net wrote:
The mast slot on my M17 was moved below the boom too and, ironically, that is exactly why I use a reefing hook instead of the o.e. tack line setup. The tack lines do not support the boom so the mainsheet pulls it down and the sliding gooseneck comes out of the slot--not good when you're sailing solo in high winds and choppy seas. In theory, I could prevent that with one of those track stop devices, but in practice I have to tighten the track stop with a set of pliers before it can resist the considerable downward force generated by the mainsheet--hand tightening simply will not work. With the reefing hook, the boom is automatically supported by halyard tension on the mainsail luff--problem solved. Or you could convert to a fixed gooseneck.
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of Dave Scobie Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 2:00 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: mastgatr (was Re: Reefing (was Re: 15M v 17M)
John.
Contact Tom at mastgates.com He can make one for you.
I just stack the slugs on SWEET PEA as a prior owner closed the slot and moved it to below, yes below, the boom.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 10:52 AM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net wrote:
Forgot to say...if anyone has any examples of fixing this issue...
My larger reefing problem is that my mast has a big (4" or more) cutaway in the sail track for slugs to go in - probably because the original sail was boltrope not slugs. And there's no "gate" on it that I can close. So reefing is a PITA at the tack because lowering main means taking out slug stop above cutaway, some slugs come out, some need to go below stop, I've got to feed them back in one side or another, then put the stop back in.
With tack lines I won't have to lower main quite as far so maybe one less slug to deal with.
But really I need to fabricate a gate for that area so there's no need for the slug stop, the slugs stay in and just stack up as low as possible.
That's the challenge with the tack lines - on a 2nd reef the tack cringle may be sitting on a big stack of slugs, can't come down towards the boom as far as one might like.
cheers, John
On 11/15/2018 01:22 PM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote: ...
Tow annoying things that can happen when reefing my M15 are the slugs falling out of the slot, and loosing the mainsheet up in the shrouds. To fix the latter I'm thinking to get a slightly longer main halyard so I can fix the end near the cleat, and it can't get lost.
The usual approach I've seen (on a variety of boats with halyard cleat on mast) is that you run the end of the halyard through the hole in the middle of the cleat, and put a figure 8 knot in the end. So you can't lose the end. And as long as there's not too much slack left, it won't wrap on other stuff. If the cleat has no hole in the middle you'd need to replace it with one that does. cheers, John I don't want the popular modern setup of having the main halyard at the cockpit, because it's just one extra thing to rig for a daysail, one extra hole in the deck, etc.
Sincerely, Tyler
----- Original Message ----- From: "scoobscobie" <scoobscobie@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 12:47:20 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: mastgatr (was Re: Reefing (was Re: 15M v 17M)
I use a slot stop on SWEET PEA to keep the gooseneck from falling out the 'bottom of the mast slot'. Never had issue with the boom sliding down and knocking the stop out of the track. The stop as a metal washer, nylon washwasher and a wingnut.
When reefed the gooseneck is supported by the halyard being in opposition to the tack line.
Wonder what is happening with your boat's mast and/or stop that causes it to slip?
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 12:37 PM <swwheatley@comcast.net wrote:
The mast slot on my M17 was moved below the boom too and, ironically, that is exactly why I use a reefing hook instead of the o.e. tack line setup. The tack lines do not support the boom so the mainsheet pulls it down and the sliding gooseneck comes out of the slot--not good when you're sailing solo in high winds and choppy seas. In theory, I could prevent that with one of those track stop devices, but in practice I have to tighten the track stop with a set of pliers before it can resist the considerable downward force generated by the mainsheet--hand tightening simply will not work. With the reefing hook, the boom is automatically supported by halyard tension on the mainsail luff--problem solved. Or you could convert to a fixed gooseneck.
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of Dave Scobie Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 2:00 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: mastgatr (was Re: Reefing (was Re: 15M v 17M)
John.
Contact Tom at mastgates.com He can make one for you.
I just stack the slugs on SWEET PEA as a prior owner closed the slot and moved it to below, yes below, the boom.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 10:52 AM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net wrote:
Forgot to say...if anyone has any examples of fixing this issue...
My larger reefing problem is that my mast has a big (4" or more) cutaway in the sail track for slugs to go in - probably because the original sail was boltrope not slugs. And there's no "gate" on it that I can close. So reefing is a PITA at the tack because lowering main means taking out slug stop above cutaway, some slugs come out, some need to go below stop, I've got to feed them back in one side or another, then put the stop back in.
With tack lines I won't have to lower main quite as far so maybe one less slug to deal with.
But really I need to fabricate a gate for that area so there's no need for the slug stop, the slugs stay in and just stack up as low as possible.
That's the challenge with the tack lines - on a 2nd reef the tack cringle may be sitting on a big stack of slugs, can't come down towards the boom as far as one might like.
cheers, John
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
The guy Dave just mentioned has some nifty lever-lock track stops that would give you way more "lock" of the stop in the track, by hand, than the thumb-wheel kind: https://www.mastgates.com/photos.html ...scroll down a ways until you see them, tiny photos, click on them to enlarge. Or simpler and way cheaper, maybe a QR rigging pin crossways through the track: http://www.duckworksbbs.com/product-p/sd-193415-parent.htm cheers, john On 11/15/2018 12:36 PM, swwheatley@comcast.net wrote:
The mast slot on my M17 was moved below the boom too and, ironically, that is exactly why I use a reefing hook instead of the o.e. tack line setup. The tack lines do not support the boom so the mainsheet pulls it down and the sliding gooseneck comes out of the slot--not good when you're sailing solo in high winds and choppy seas. In theory, I could prevent that with one of those track stop devices, but in practice I have to tighten the track stop with a set of pliers before it can resist the considerable downward force generated by the mainsheet--hand tightening simply will not work. With the reefing hook, the boom is automatically supported by halyard tension on the mainsail luff--problem solved. Or you could convert to a fixed gooseneck.
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of Dave Scobie Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 2:00 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: mastgatr (was Re: Reefing (was Re: 15M v 17M)
John.
Contact Tom at mastgates.com He can make one for you.
I just stack the slugs on SWEET PEA as a prior owner closed the slot and moved it to below, yes below, the boom.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I've seen those and they probably are better than the Davis track stopper I have but the reefing hook makes that moot. Sent from my iPhone
On Nov 15, 2018, at 4:59 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
The guy Dave just mentioned has some nifty lever-lock track stops that would give you way more "lock" of the stop in the track, by hand, than the thumb-wheel kind: https://www.mastgates.com/photos.html
....scroll down a ways until you see them, tiny photos, click on them to enlarge.
Or simpler and way cheaper, maybe a QR rigging pin crossways through the track: http://www.duckworksbbs.com/product-p/sd-193415-parent.htm
cheers, john
On 11/15/2018 12:36 PM, swwheatley@comcast.net wrote: The mast slot on my M17 was moved below the boom too and, ironically, that is exactly why I use a reefing hook instead of the o.e. tack line setup. The tack lines do not support the boom so the mainsheet pulls it down and the sliding gooseneck comes out of the slot--not good when you're sailing solo in high winds and choppy seas. In theory, I could prevent that with one of those track stop devices, but in practice I have to tighten the track stop with a set of pliers before it can resist the considerable downward force generated by the mainsheet--hand tightening simply will not work. With the reefing hook, the boom is automatically supported by halyard tension on the mainsail luff--problem solved. Or you could convert to a fixed gooseneck. -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of Dave Scobie Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 2:00 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: mastgatr (was Re: Reefing (was Re: 15M v 17M) John. Contact Tom at mastgates.com He can make one for you. I just stack the slugs on SWEET PEA as a prior owner closed the slot and moved it to below, yes below, the boom. :: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living -
Reefing -approaches to problems on small trailerable boats. I see so many people have this as a concern and it comes up almost annually - so my unsolicited response follows: The operation of the boat needs to be dead nuts simple (where possible) AND reliable in 'freak-out' conditions. I HATE drilling holes in any parts of my boats or attaching additional gee gaws. I dislike them SO much so I will walk away from a potential used boat to purchase if it is even remotely 'riddled with holes' - and those bulkhead compass holes/thru deck bilge pumps/hawse pipes - YEOWWW! Enough of my mental /social defects......back to reefing. There are no slugs on the mainsail, a fixed gooseneck and use a 4:1 stand alone tackle with reef hook attached to the mast step area organizer for forward reef (serves duty as cunningham when not used for reef) - No problems at all. Easy and fast as is now required with advancing age and declining strength of yours truly. Aft reef line is internal at boom - terminating approx. 14" from gooseneck - cleat facing aft. (pull reef towrds yourself as I am in companionway while reefing) Just for giggles, someday when you are bored - remove the slugs from your mainsail and clean your sail slot (full length of the slot and use SailCote to lubricate slot and boltrope) then try reefing in 'non-emergency conditions' - you will be surprised. (This clean/lube is typically a once a year maintenance item on 'Tiny Purple Fishes') PS - my mainsail 'falls down' when the halyard is released fast enough to startle. 99+% of the time hoists as fast as I can haul - unless the operator does something less than stylish. No binding slugs. This makes reefing quick and 'clean'. FWIW - back in my MIP days - I made good money installing slugs on new boat mainsails - and selling replacement slugs, and mast gates, and sail slug stops. Decided they really didn't work based on value/performance. The easier it is - the safer/faster/more likely to get used and perform it's function. K.I.S.S ailor! WARNING - DO NOT get dry film teflon lubricant anywhere you want secure footing! Mask if needed to prevent overspray. Give it a shot -Take Care, Have fUn, go sailing! GO
Thanks GO...I like the cunningham/reef tackle idea. You need to slack the line and move the hook to next reef point. how much of a hassle do you find that, vs. having two reef lines & cleats in place (OEM setup)? Can second the value of a little silicone spray (pure silicone stuff only, NOT petroleum-laced!!!) in the track. Partly from my M17, which has slugs (came that way...) and even a half-hearted bit of spraying made for smoother raising. Even more so from a friend's Corsair 31, which has a boltrope luff and an 'effing huge tall mast and (relative to ours at least) enormous mainsail...he was often there with spray can as we raised the main, spraying as it went into the slot (it's a loooooong way to the top on one of those puppies...thank Dog for low gear on the winch...). cheers, john On 11/16/2018 09:43 AM, Gary Oberbeck via montgomery_boats wrote:
Reefing -approaches to problems on small trailerable boats. I see so many people have this as a concern and it comes up almost annually - so my unsolicited response follows: The operation of the boat needs to be dead nuts simple (where possible) AND reliable in 'freak-out' conditions. I HATE drilling holes in any parts of my boats or attaching additional gee gaws. I dislike them SO much so I will walk away from a potential used boat to purchase if it is even remotely 'riddled with holes' - and those bulkhead compass holes/thru deck bilge pumps/hawse pipes - YEOWWW! Enough of my mental /social defects......back to reefing. There are no slugs on the mainsail, a fixed gooseneck and use a 4:1 stand alone tackle with reef hook attached to the mast step area organizer for forward reef (serves duty as cunningham when not used for reef) - No problems at all. Easy and fast as is now required with advancing age and declining strength of yours truly.
Aft reef line is internal at boom - terminating approx. 14" from gooseneck - cleat facing aft. (pull reef towrds yourself as I am in companionway while reefing) Just for giggles, someday when you are bored - remove the slugs from your mainsail and clean your sail slot (full length of the slot and use SailCote to lubricate slot and boltrope) then try reefing in 'non-emergency conditions' - you will be surprised. (This clean/lube is typically a once a year maintenance item on 'Tiny Purple Fishes') PS - my mainsail 'falls down' when the halyard is released fast enough to startle. 99+% of the time hoists as fast as I can haul - unless the operator does something less than stylish. No binding slugs. This makes reefing quick and 'clean'. FWIW - back in my MIP days - I made good money installing slugs on new boat mainsails - and selling replacement slugs, and mast gates, and sail slug stops. Decided they really didn't work based on value/performance. The easier it is - the safer/faster/more likely to get used and perform it's function. K.I.S.S ailor! WARNING - DO NOT get dry film teflon lubricant anywhere you want secure footing! Mask if needed to prevent overspray. Give it a shot -Take Care, Have fUn, go sailing! GO
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
participants (6)
-
casioqv＠usermail.com -
Dave Scobie -
Gary Oberbeck -
John Schinnerer -
Stanley Wheatley -
swwheatley＠comcast.net