Re: M_Boats: M17 sails
John,
From what I see from your photo - the lower set of reef cringles appear to be a 'flattening reef' - - not so common to see them lately, but they were in vogue in the seventies. The reef if viewed parallel to the boom, will be deeper at the aft end of the boom. The idea is to flatten the mainsail by removing a large portion of the draft and maintain most of the sail area. A helpful feature - just not real common on small boats. Looks like you have missing or damaged battens at the second and third pockets (can't see the top one in pix)
On a related note, and not directed to your boat in particular - the performance of our boats - ALL sailing abilities, directly corresponds to the quality of the sails - well cared for sails are of paramount importance in making a boat sail to its potential. The fact that a sail has no tears/stains or torn seams are not the only indications of a sails usefulness. Older 'worn sails' are like old tires - yes, you can drive down to the corner store on the threadbare tires but they will not allow for safe braking/handling - a sail that has been stretched beyond the designed shape will encourage poor handling in the boat - draft aft or excessivedaft in head or mainsails, loose leech/foot will translate to poor pointing, excess weather helm and poor speed. Age of sails does not positively correlate to a good experience like an old trusted friend. About 'Speed' - we know not everyone is concerned with speed. Sails in less than good designed shape degrade a boats performance on all levels. They will cause the boat to point poorly and make a destination harder to acquire, encourage excess heeling which produces excess weather helm and loss of control at higher wind speeds. No one likes to drive a 'sloppy' car - it is a bit harder to compare a boat in good condition (sails) than it is to get in my wife's newer lower mileage car - and compare the experience. IMHO best bang for the $ is NEW Quality sails - we all have our favorite sailmakers.For a treat to yourself and your sailing safety/experience why not try a new headsail - a nice 110% for example - most of us as sailors would welcome the experience of higher quality handling and performance. This is not a personal 'rag' on your particular case - just me 'P*ssin' in the wind' about the age/quality of many of our (mine included) sails on our boats. I have a full suit of Reggie Armstrongs (they WERE good++), a suit of middle age/old Norths for day'cruising and recent Ullmans for racing - or when I need to 'feel good' about the boats performance) Support a good local or global sailmaker - NFIW - I would just like to see more grins on Monty sailors when they break out a new sail!! PS - ROLL THEM IF YOU GOT "EM (new sails that is) - roll them parallel to the foot - please don't fold or wad them up- proper storage encourages many more grins going forward as your sail will be the better for proper storage. End of unsolicited rant and worth every penny.{:>) GO In a message dated 10/4/2016 1:40:54 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, john@eco-living.net writes: Speaking of sails...a few questions about M17 suite of sails. My M17 from 1974 came with the newer main with three reefs, all good there. I also got the "small" jib, which indicates on its bag that it is best used with the first reef in the main. It's not a full on storm jib. It does work very well with first reef in main. Also works OK with full main when the "big" jib would be overpowered - speaking of which... And, I got the "big" jib, which on its bag indicates that it is the "cruising" genoa. I assume (but don't know for sure) that it's the 150% "normal" cruising jib for the M17. First off, is that the "OEM" set of jibs, those two? Second off, is there something in between those two, either OEM or that anyone has found appropriate from experience? It's a pretty big gap between the two, in terms of sail area. Seems like an intermediate size would be more versatile for a range of wind conditions than just the rather small or the very big options...? Or maybe I'm missing something basic about the nature of the M17 rig. Any info/experiences appreciated. cheers, John S. On 10/04/2016 12:11 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Yeah, I was pretty pleased to acquire a newer main with three reefs with the boat. So far I've only used the first reef...not sure I want to be out on the water when the third might be required! Glad to have the option though.
The 'small' jib has the Reggie Armstrong label on it, yes. It is rather stretched, and flappy in the leach, probably the original.
I need to look again at the cruising jib (the big one) as I can't recall what maker was on it if any. I've only used it a few times so far.
cheers, John S.
On 10/04/2016 08:49 AM, swwheatley@comcast.net wrote:
Yes, early M17s usually carried Reggie Armstrong sails so your jib probably is original and your main is not.
At 42 years old, that jib has lived almost as many lives as a cat, but you probably knew that already.
Interesting that your main has 3 reefs. That 3rd reef would correspond with some pretty hardcore sailing.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, October 3, 2016 6:07:31 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Some Waldo lake pix
It's an M-17...that may explain part of the difference...I'm 6' 3", if it were an M15 I'd have to be 5' 6"! :-)
It's hull #38, built in 1974. The M-17s had transom cutouts for quite a while, someone else may know when that changed.
No number on the sail as it's apparently not the original sail, or, numbers didn't get put on the original. It's not in great shape, but I think it's in too good of shape to be the original. The main is from North Sails - does anyone know what maker the original main would have been on a '74 M-17? The small jib is Reggie Armstrong which IIRC was an early sail supplier?
As to the hull color, I am nearly certain it is not the original. There are a few rub spots where a more orange color (not white) shows through. I wasn't sure what to make of that, until I looked at the MSOG photo site owner registry recently and saw another M17 with original "custom gelcoat" hull color given as "Tangerine" (Windsong, here: http://www.msogphotosite.com/Scripts/Boats/boatsdetail.php?id=22), which in the photos looks pretty close to what is showing through the rub spots on my M17. This photo of "Dulce" shows a possibly similar orange-y red, prior to the repaint with the red Awlgrip:
http://www.msogphotosite.com/Scripts/General/imageviewer.php?objectid=25&obj...
So I'm guessing I have an original "tangerine" hull gelcoat that at
some
point got painted over with the red you see. You can also see some duller looking, more reddish brown blotches here and there - again I'm not sure but it looks like they were attempts to cover rubbed areas or other small cosmetic finish defects with some other finish that didn't work out well visually. I'd love to have her hull perfectly bristol but my priority generally goes to sailing time and functional upgrades first... :-)
cheers, John S.
On 10/03/2016 02:29 PM, Steve Trapp wrote:
John, Thanx for the Waldo Lake photos. I notice that your M-15 is red and appears to have a cut out opening on the transom, different than my 1985 M-15 that is white with a solid (?) transom. What year was yours built? What are the numbers on your sail? Steve M-15 # 335
-----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer Sent: Monday, October 3, 2016 1:01 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Some Waldo lake pix
A few shots from my recent Waldo lake trip. Ghosting; cruising; morning dew on coaming; nice anchorage.
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Very well said GO. I come from a racing background and can not help sailing a boat to her potential even when just day sailing. All my boats have new sails to the extent that I can afford.I don't think cruising is an excuse to have old baggy sails. Jim E M-17 #603 Grace (Sabot 10276 Mystic, Sabot 10305 Tiki Time, Lido 14 6261 Lido Bandito) On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 9:26 AM, GILASAILR--- via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
John,
From what I see from your photo - the lower set of reef cringles appear to be a 'flattening reef' - - not so common to see them lately, but they were in vogue in the seventies. The reef if viewed parallel to the boom, will be deeper at the aft end of the boom. The idea is to flatten the mainsail by removing a large portion of the draft and maintain most of the sail area. A helpful feature - just not real common on small boats. Looks like you have missing or damaged battens at the second and third pockets (can't see the top one in pix)
On a related note, and not directed to your boat in particular - the performance of our boats - ALL sailing abilities, directly corresponds to the quality of the sails - well cared for sails are of paramount importance in making a boat sail to its potential. The fact that a sail has no tears/stains or torn seams are not the only indications of a sails usefulness. Older 'worn sails' are like old tires - yes, you can drive down to the corner store on the threadbare tires but they will not allow for safe braking/handling - a sail that has been stretched beyond the designed shape will encourage poor handling in the boat - draft aft or excessivedaft in head or mainsails, loose leech/foot will translate to poor pointing, excess weather helm and poor speed. Age of sails does not positively correlate to a good experience like an old trusted friend.
About 'Speed' - we know not everyone is concerned with speed. Sails in less than good designed shape degrade a boats performance on all levels. They will cause the boat to point poorly and make a destination harder to acquire, encourage excess heeling which produces excess weather helm and loss of control at higher wind speeds. No one likes to drive a 'sloppy' car - it is a bit harder to compare a boat in good condition (sails) than it is to get in my wife's newer lower mileage car - and compare the experience. IMHO best bang for the $ is NEW Quality sails - we all have our favorite sailmakers.For a treat to yourself and your sailing safety/experience why not try a new headsail - a nice 110% for example - most of us as sailors would welcome the experience of higher quality handling and performance.
This is not a personal 'rag' on your particular case - just me 'P*ssin' in the wind' about the age/quality of many of our (mine included) sails on our boats. I have a full suit of Reggie Armstrongs (they WERE good++), a suit of middle age/old Norths for day'cruising and recent Ullmans for racing - or when I need to 'feel good' about the boats performance)
Support a good local or global sailmaker - NFIW - I would just like to see more grins on Monty sailors when they break out a new sail!!
PS - ROLL THEM IF YOU GOT "EM (new sails that is) - roll them parallel to the foot - please don't fold or wad them up- proper storage encourages many more grins going forward as your sail will be the better for proper storage.
End of unsolicited rant and worth every penny.{:>)
GO
In a message dated 10/4/2016 1:40:54 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, john@eco-living.net writes:
Speaking of sails...a few questions about M17 suite of sails.
My M17 from 1974 came with the newer main with three reefs, all good there.
I also got the "small" jib, which indicates on its bag that it is best used with the first reef in the main. It's not a full on storm jib. It does work very well with first reef in main. Also works OK with full main when the "big" jib would be overpowered - speaking of which...
And, I got the "big" jib, which on its bag indicates that it is the "cruising" genoa. I assume (but don't know for sure) that it's the 150% "normal" cruising jib for the M17.
First off, is that the "OEM" set of jibs, those two?
Second off, is there something in between those two, either OEM or that anyone has found appropriate from experience?
It's a pretty big gap between the two, in terms of sail area. Seems like an intermediate size would be more versatile for a range of wind conditions than just the rather small or the very big options...? Or maybe I'm missing something basic about the nature of the M17 rig.
Any info/experiences appreciated.
cheers, John S.
On 10/04/2016 12:11 PM, John Schinnerer wrote:
Yeah, I was pretty pleased to acquire a newer main with three reefs with the boat. So far I've only used the first reef...not sure I want to be out on the water when the third might be required! Glad to have the option though.
The 'small' jib has the Reggie Armstrong label on it, yes. It is rather stretched, and flappy in the leach, probably the original.
I need to look again at the cruising jib (the big one) as I can't recall what maker was on it if any. I've only used it a few times so far.
cheers, John S.
On 10/04/2016 08:49 AM, swwheatley@comcast.net wrote:
Yes, early M17s usually carried Reggie Armstrong sails so your jib probably is original and your main is not.
At 42 years old, that jib has lived almost as many lives as a cat, but you probably knew that already.
Interesting that your main has 3 reefs. That 3rd reef would correspond with some pretty hardcore sailing.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, October 3, 2016 6:07:31 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Some Waldo lake pix
It's an M-17...that may explain part of the difference...I'm 6' 3", if it were an M15 I'd have to be 5' 6"! :-)
It's hull #38, built in 1974. The M-17s had transom cutouts for quite a while, someone else may know when that changed.
No number on the sail as it's apparently not the original sail, or, numbers didn't get put on the original. It's not in great shape, but I think it's in too good of shape to be the original. The main is from North Sails - does anyone know what maker the original main would have been on a '74 M-17? The small jib is Reggie Armstrong which IIRC was an early sail supplier?
As to the hull color, I am nearly certain it is not the original. There are a few rub spots where a more orange color (not white) shows through. I wasn't sure what to make of that, until I looked at the MSOG photo site owner registry recently and saw another M17 with original "custom gelcoat" hull color given as "Tangerine" (Windsong, here: http://www.msogphotosite.com/Scripts/Boats/boatsdetail.php?id=22), which in the photos looks pretty close to what is showing through the rub spots on my M17. This photo of "Dulce" shows a possibly similar orange-y red, prior to the repaint with the red Awlgrip:
http://www.msogphotosite.com/Scripts/General/imageviewer. php?objectid=25&objecttype=0&photoid=263
So I'm guessing I have an original "tangerine" hull gelcoat that at
some
point got painted over with the red you see. You can also see some duller looking, more reddish brown blotches here and there - again I'm not sure but it looks like they were attempts to cover rubbed areas or other small cosmetic finish defects with some other finish that didn't work out well visually. I'd love to have her hull perfectly bristol but my priority generally goes to sailing time and functional upgrades first... :-)
cheers, John S.
On 10/03/2016 02:29 PM, Steve Trapp wrote:
John, Thanx for the Waldo Lake photos. I notice that your M-15 is red and appears to have a cut out opening on the transom, different than my 1985 M-15 that is white with a solid (?) transom. What year was yours built? What are the numbers on your sail? Steve M-15 # 335
-----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer Sent: Monday, October 3, 2016 1:01 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Some Waldo lake pix
A few shots from my recent Waldo lake trip. Ghosting; cruising; morning dew on coaming; nice anchorage.
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
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