In a message dated 10/10/02 8:26:46 AM, bgranowitz@hotmail.com writes: << I have an M15. What's the towing weight of the combined boat, trailer, motor, and reasonable gear and food for 2 for a weekend? I've been borrowing a friends truck to tow. It's time I had my own vehicle to do this. I want to make sure it has enough pep to pull it over the mountains outside of Seattle. Thanks, Brian >> Hi Brian, I also have an M15 and a fairly extensive (though carefully chosen) compliment of gear that I frequently tow in mountainous areas. I have weighed some of my equipment, and have estimated others. The following are approximate weights for my setup: Boat (completely empty save for sails, mast, boom, running rigging): 800# Trail-Rite Trailer (less spare tire, which I carry in truck): 350# Spare wheel/tire, spare hubs (loaded/greased), extra bearings/races and seals trailer jack, extra grease, coupler lock, tongue lock: 40# Tongue extension (5' long, 2" square tubing with welded receiver): 3 0# Honda 2hp long shaft, 3 Gallon fuel tank (full), (3) two gallon fuel jugs (empty), engine spares (prop, plugs, shear pins, impeller, etc), oil: 55# Ground Tackle (one Bruce 4.4#; one Bruce 11#; one West Performance 6# (similar to a Danforth HT); one rode with 15' chain/300' three strand; another with 15' chain and 250' three strand; grapnel anchor for dinghy: 80# Additional sails, sail cover, whisker pole, bilge pump, boat hook, fenders, dock lines, tow/shore-tie line, collapsible bucket, sponges: 50# Thetford Porta-Pottie (empty), bottle head chemical: 10# Water tank w/fill, vent, and bulb pump/hose (empty): 10# Origo 1500 absorption alcohol stove and fuel (6 hours/quart): 10# Titanium pot set, plates/cups, cutlery and misc. cookware: 7# Safety equipment: 12 gauge flare kit with extras, Pelican spotlight, First aid kit, signal mirrors, EPIRB, Lifesling (inflatable in canister), throw-rope, life jackets(4), SOSpendors inflatable life vests/harnesses (2), Fire Extinguisher: 40# Plastimo portable running lights, flashlights (2 floating Pelican), Plastimo Compass (Handheld/mountable), Speedmate (Hondex) handheld depth sounder, (2) battery powered interior lights, Icom handheld VHF, Icom FRS Radios (2), Garmin GPS, solar battery charger, spare batteries: 20# Tool box/tools, rigging spares: 15# West RU-260 roll-up inflatable hard transom dinghy, pump, oars: 50# Fleece sleep sacks (2), Fleece blanket, synthetic sleeping bags (2): 12# Foul Weather gear, boots (2 sets) 15# Misc. stuff (solar shower, fast dry towels, etc.): 20# Estimated total (not including clothing and food): 1614 pounds Keep in mind that my equipment list reflects long towing distances (often more than 1000 miles each way), and longer trips in open to semi-protected waters (we have done up to three weeks in such places as Desolation Sound, Princess Louisa Inlet, the Gulf Islands, etc.). My sails, safety equipment, and ground tackle choices reflect my use as well as my home waters (split between San Francisco bay and Pacific Northwest coastal waters). You could subtract as needed for weekend cruising or protected waters. I would guess that I could shave off 100# for weekend or local trips. Also, I carry many of the above items (including tongue extension, engine, dinghy, spare wheel/tire/jack/etc., fuel tanks, anchors) in the bed of the truck for better weight distribution, less wear on the boat, and safety. There is an extensive body of opinion regarding appropriate tow vehicles in the archives (perhaps more in quantity and passion than any other topic posted). There are those on this list who tow M15's with truly diminutive vehicles, and still others that would argue you need a full size truck. Second only to the choice of the vehicle is the passion with which transmissions are discussed (Automatic vs. Manual). One caveat I would like to interject with respect to the various comments and opinions registered is that terrain is an all important consideration. Pulling your boat and gear repeatedly over the Rockies, Sierras, or Cascades is very different from low altitude, mild terrain towing. It is harder on the powertrain due not only to the sustained climbing involved, but also the reduced power available at altitude. Long, steep descents can be especially hard on automotive brakes not designed for heavy loads or towing (engine compression can only be used to an extent, beyond which the brakes must also be used). Therefore, I would argue that the appropriate tow vehicle and/or equipment choice should be more dependent on your intended loading and terrain use than on anecdotal successes from those perhaps towing under entirely different conditions. With respect to transmission choices (not to inflame the passions again), I would argue that blanket statements as to the suitability/unsuitability of automatics or manuals *in general* are a poor substitute for looking at each make/model of vehicle on a case by case basis. I know of several instances where one manufacturer differs dramatically from another in their recommendations (and warranty requirements) with respect to transmission. While some have argued to the contrary, I am a firm believer in staying within the manufacturer's suggested/required weight limits. In addition to heeding the towing weight restrictions (dependent on a combination of factors including engine, transmission, final drive ratio, cooling equipment, brakes, tire size, etc.), I would suggest staying within the Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Rating (GCVWR). This takes into consideration all of the stuff that you piled into the tow vehicle AND the boat in determining a safe load. I have towed my M15 behind two Ford Rangers with good success and longevity. For the first three years, I towed with a 1990 2wd Ranger, 2.3litre four cylinder, 5-speed manual, 3.55 final drive. The M15 as equipped above (distributed between boat and truck) was just within the manufacturer's limits. I crossed the Rockies, Sierras, and Cascades (the latter two repeatedly) with no problems, no overheating, and with no compromised braking or control. The 100hp four cylinder did admirable service, and indeed, was only somewhat slower on hills than my friend's Ranger equipped with the 160hp 4.0 litre/5-speed automatic (we traveled in tandem with both towing M15's). I still have this truck (is now my work truck), and with 180,000 miles on the clock and with strong compression and no oil consumption, it does not seem like the 6000 miles of towing (much across mountains) had any detrimental effect (I am anal about maintenance, however). I bought a new 1999 Ranger 4wd, 3.0 litre six cylinder, 5 speed manual, 3.73 final drive that I now use to tow the M15. It too does a fine job of towing the Montgomery and hauling the gear. The six cylinder does provide more climbing power. Not surprisingly, the older 2wd long bed Ranger's handling was more predictable than the newer 4wd (taller) regular cab/short bed (shorter wheel base). Aside from my having to be a bit more careful in evasive maneuvers, the 4wd is nice for pulling the boat out on slippery or non paved ramps (Has anyone else ever launched at Egmont, BC? Need I say more?). Initially, I favored the 4.0 litre engine over the 3.0 litre (no four cylinder offered in 4wd), but a Ford "insider" friend told me that the 3.0 litre had proven to be more reliable, and that the 4.0 litre was thirsty (this proved true, as my 3.0 litre yields 20-23mpg, whereas my friend's 4.0 litre gets 16-19mpg). The temperature gauge never budges from its usual resting place, and I can usually hold close to the speed limit on all but the steepest climbs. Many have inquired as to why I bought Rangers instead of the (rated) more reliable Toyota. In 1990, when I bought the Ranger, I test drove the Toyota, but was turned off by how poorly equipped it was (no passenger side mirror, no day/night mirror, four speed instead of five speed transmission, polyester radials instead of steel, no intermittent wipers, etc.). In addition, the cargo box was smaller, and the safety (crash test) ratings were not as good. I find it interesting that several friends that bought Toyotas of that vintage had considerable problems with exhaust manifold gaskets and head studs. I bought the 1999 Ranger in part because of my good luck with the 1990, and in part because I got a screaming deal. So far, so good. I would acknowledge, however, that a Toyota is probably going to have better reliability in the long run. The new Tacomas are much better than the earlier vintage pickups, and I would definitely consider one next time around. As for the transmission, I ended up with manuals when I would have preferred automatics (my model was not offered with an automatic in 1990, and the 1999 was a take-it-or leave it deal with the stick). Ford substantially derates the manual compared to the automatic for towing purposes (for example, a 4.0 litre with 5-speed automatic and 3.73 final drive had a maximum rated towing weight of 6000 pounds compared to 3500 pounds for the same engine mated to a 5-speed manual. For purposes of the M15, I am more than safe with the manual. Toyota, on the other hand, assigned the same rating to both their automatic and manual transmissions. The moral of the story is look at the numbers for each vehicle you are considering. You might want to visit your trusted transmission shop and query them as to which is the better transmission--they generally know from repair histories. If you do get an automatic, make sure and get an optional/auxilary transmission cooler. These often come as part of the towing package, which I would also recommend. Make sure and read the fine print regarding the use of the automatic overdrive when towing. Several manufacturers disallow it. For my use, a compact pickup has been the best possible tow vehicle for the M15. I can load the considerable amount of equipment I carry without concern of harming the interior of an SUV (or smelling the gas fumes from engine/tanks), Operating and insurance costs are low, and the greater towing and load capacities (as compared to, say, a standard passenger car) will likely equate to greater longevity. While not universally true, the front engine/rear live-axle configuration of the small (and large) trucks is generally stronger and better suited for towing than front wheel drive. Well, that's my *opinion*. They say free advise is worth what you pay for it. Good luck in your quest! Scott Grometer, M15 #478 'bebe'