Although I am very pleased with #662, I am a little disappointed with her steering. My previous 2 boats were a CD Typhoon and a Quickstep 24 , both very easy to steer,1 finger. I noticed that replacement Tillers for the M15 are shown as 47" in length (Ruddercraft and Defender) while my stock tiller that came with boat is around 36". Question , would the additional leverage gained from the extra 11 inches (perhaps at the expense of less cockpit space) be worth the $ 119 and hassle to switch out ? Regards Jamie Horton On Wed, Jul 10, 2019, 15:01 , <montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Tow weight issues (John Schinnerer) 2. Re: List Members (Dave Scobie) 3. Re: montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 197, Issue 8 (Steve R.) 4. Re: Tow weight issues (Gail Russell) 5. Re: Tow weight issues (John Schinnerer) 6. Towing issues (Rusty Knorr)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 13:13:12 -0700 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tow weight issues Message-ID: <48b22c45-8ccc-4006-3198-e275ac522349@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Ditto most of this.
I am due for a brake flush and will spec DOT 4 to replace the DOT 3 that is most likely in there now.
If you are at all on the edge of your vehicle's towing capacity, and able to understand car talk (in general, not just the NPR show :-), the part about online forums is very applicable. For example my generation of subarus started in 2000, but the first year had significantly weaker brakes than 2001 and later. In other words not all vehicles of the same 'generation' in car maker terms are equal. I found that out on forums...obviously Subaru is not going to crow about it themselves.
Re engine temps, you want to keep your engine oil temp at 210-220F or below. Most cars don't have oil temp gauges (not with numbers on then anyhow) but if you have a new enough car as he says below you can get that info via added technology. Synthetic oils (if you are using them) may not break down as much above 210-220F as standard oils or blends, but in any case if your oil is above that, your whole engine is getting too hot even if the oil is not losing its lubricity. Coolant temp is not necessarily as good a measure as oil temp since various cooling system issues can give a low or normal reading on coolant temp when in fact you're overheating.
Re hitches, for an M17 or an M15 towed by smaller vehicles, for those smaller vehicles you will most likely find spec to be a Class II hitch. These are rated 3500 lbs towing and 300 lbs tongue weight, 1000+ lbs more than even a loaded M17 on trailer. They have a 1 1/4" receiver. They attach to the vehicle frame, not just to body metal. For example this is the one I put on my subie:
https://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Hitch/Subaru/Outback+Wagon/2001/36284.html?...
If you have a bigger heftier vehicle then your normal spec will be a Class III with higher weight limits, also bolts to frame, and a 2" receiver.
If you have an M15, which you can tow with a smaller car than an M17 for sure, then your vehicle spec hitch might be a Class I, 2000 lbs max tow weight and 200 lbs max tongue weight. That is plenty for an M15, and properly made Class I hitches also attach to the vehicle frame not just the body metal.
In other words, go with a hitch that is spec for your vehicle. That keeps you in a reasonable safety zone. Assuming you don't overload both the hitch and the vehicle that is... :-O
Any decent hitch from Class I up will attach to the vehicle frame, so as he says below avoid anything that just attaches to body metal (including "bumper hitches" on small trucks and similar).
cheers, John
On 7/7/19 1:43 PM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
I wanted to mention a few things about towing safely with a light weight tow vehicle:
1. Change the brake fluid annually or less with a high boiling point fluid, especially if you have an unbraked trailer. As it absorbs water, the boiling temperature lowers rapidly, and will cause you to lose braking coming down a grade. I personally prefer to use ATE TYP200 which is a racing fluid, and boils at 536F dry and 388F wet (e.g. after about 2 years). If your car has several year old DOT 3 fluid, it could boil at temps as low as 257F, and lose all braking ability when the brakes aren't even very hot yet. Cars that take DOT 3 can use DOT 4 instead, which usually has a higher boiling point. Good ceramic brake pads and new racing grade fluid will drastically increase the braking capacity of any car or truck.
2. Find the online car forum for owners of your car model, and read everything they say about towing safely- weakness, modifications, etc. Often some car models will need a few things like a different transmission fluid, different rear springs, or different brake pads to overcome minor design flaws and make towing safer.
3. Most cars nowadays have temperature sensors on everything, but they don't report this data to the driver. With a bluetooth OBD-II dongle, and a smartphone app like Torque, you can get an audible alarm long before the transmission or engine overheat enough to cause permanent damage... whereas once the dash lights come on it's usually too late. As a rule of thumb, an engine should stay under boiling, e.g. 100C/212F when climbing a grade if the cooling system is in good shape.
4. A Class III 2" receiver hitch is worth it even for a small car with a light trailer. If you can't find one, you can get one fabricated by a welder. The cheap draw-tite, reese, etc. Class I hitches that just mount to sheet metal are unsafe, as those mount points will fatigue and fail if you tow a lot, even with a light weight trailer.
Sincerely, Tyler
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 13:25:24 -0700 From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: List Members Message-ID: <CAGjBOA75YNijvyWhSE3Ftt51GJUCEPskEUmipBBYHEBYt= 9Ghg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Find a prior email sent to the list by the person you wish to contact. Choose reply ALL. Check new email's header that should now show both the listproc address and that of the original poster. Delete the listproc email address.
Or -
Reply to the original email posted by the person you wish to contact. Their original post will have a lead header showing their email address (ex: 'On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, 10:11 AM George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com> wrote:'). Copy their email and paste in the send-to field. Delete the listproc address from the send-to field.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, 10:11 AM George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com> wrote:
How does one contact a list member off list? I whish to contact Connie Benneck regarding his books and as much of the discussion is not Montgomery oriented I do not wish to violate the list rules and post here.
Thanks George Merry Helen II 96 M15 602 "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
------------------------------
Message: 3 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 16:34:41 -0400 From: "Steve R." <stever707@gmail.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 197, Issue 8 Message-ID: <CA+qyhvUXjbyE16dF9x_nbveyaD7L+txeKC4_4U= POsOViGCOiA@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
George,
Look for the link near the top of every email "To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit" .
Follow the link.
At the bottom of the page you will see an additional option:
*montgomery_boats Subscribers* (*The subscribers list is only available to the list members.*)
Enter your address and password to visit the subscribers list:
=================================================
Follow these instructions and you will see everyone who publicly accepts emails.
If you forgot your password you may request that a new password is emailed to you. steve
Steve R. M-15 #119 Lexington KY now - Green Cove Spring FL sometime soon
<sniped>
Message: 1 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 12:10:39 -0500 From: George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com>
How does one contact a list member off list? I whish to contact Connie Benneck regarding his books and as much of the discussion is not
Montgomery
oriented I do not wish to violate the list rules and post here.
Thanks George Merry Helen II 96 M15 602
------------------------------
Message: 4 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 13:54:02 -0700 From: Gail Russell <gail@zeliga.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tow weight issues Message-ID: < CAKCiK2JHEF+65vDzHtvcbKhFf0494W4kD4K-MLCUqw7jx9yOfQ@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I am a total know-nothing on this subject, but from my acquaintances in the horse trailer towing world, I have been told that the wheel base length of the tow vehicle versus the weight of the tow vehicle is important. I presume this is relevant in a potential jack knifing situation, and is the problem when I am following a rig where the trailed vehicle is swinging from side to side.
Gail in Forestville CA
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 1:13 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Ditto most of this.
I am due for a brake flush and will spec DOT 4 to replace the DOT 3 that is most likely in there now.
If you are at all on the edge of your vehicle's towing capacity, and able to understand car talk (in general, not just the NPR show :-), the part about online forums is very applicable. For example my generation of subarus started in 2000, but the first year had significantly weaker brakes than 2001 and later. In other words not all vehicles of the same 'generation' in car maker terms are equal. I found that out on forums...obviously Subaru is not going to crow about it themselves.
Re engine temps, you want to keep your engine oil temp at 210-220F or below. Most cars don't have oil temp gauges (not with numbers on then anyhow) but if you have a new enough car as he says below you can get that info via added technology. Synthetic oils (if you are using them) may not break down as much above 210-220F as standard oils or blends, but in any case if your oil is above that, your whole engine is getting too hot even if the oil is not losing its lubricity. Coolant temp is not necessarily as good a measure as oil temp since various cooling system issues can give a low or normal reading on coolant temp when in fact you're overheating.
Re hitches, for an M17 or an M15 towed by smaller vehicles, for those smaller vehicles you will most likely find spec to be a Class II hitch. These are rated 3500 lbs towing and 300 lbs tongue weight, 1000+ lbs more than even a loaded M17 on trailer. They have a 1 1/4" receiver. They attach to the vehicle frame, not just to body metal. For example this is the one I put on my subie:
https://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Hitch/Subaru/Outback+Wagon/2001/36284.html?...
If you have a bigger heftier vehicle then your normal spec will be a Class III with higher weight limits, also bolts to frame, and a 2" receiver.
If you have an M15, which you can tow with a smaller car than an M17 for sure, then your vehicle spec hitch might be a Class I, 2000 lbs max tow weight and 200 lbs max tongue weight. That is plenty for an M15, and properly made Class I hitches also attach to the vehicle frame not just the body metal.
In other words, go with a hitch that is spec for your vehicle. That keeps you in a reasonable safety zone. Assuming you don't overload both the hitch and the vehicle that is... :-O
Any decent hitch from Class I up will attach to the vehicle frame, so as he says below avoid anything that just attaches to body metal (including "bumper hitches" on small trucks and similar).
cheers, John
On 7/7/19 1:43 PM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
I wanted to mention a few things about towing safely with a light
weight
tow vehicle:
1. Change the brake fluid annually or less with a high boiling point
fluid, especially if you have an unbraked trailer. As it absorbs water, the boiling temperature lowers rapidly, and will cause you to lose braking coming down a grade. I personally prefer to use ATE TYP200 which is a racing fluid, and boils at 536F dry and 388F wet (e.g. after about 2 years). If your car has several year old DOT 3 fluid, it could boil at temps as low as 257F, and lose all braking ability when the brakes aren't even very hot yet. Cars that take DOT 3 can use DOT 4 instead, which usually has a higher boiling point. Good ceramic brake pads and new racing grade fluid will drastically increase the braking capacity of any car or truck.
2. Find the online car forum for owners of your car model, and read
everything they say about towing safely- weakness, modifications, etc. Often some car models will need a few things like a different transmission fluid, different rear springs, or different brake pads to overcome minor design flaws and make towing safer.
3. Most cars nowadays have temperature sensors on everything, but they
don't report this data to the driver. With a bluetooth OBD-II dongle, and a smartphone app like Torque, you can get an audible alarm long before the transmission or engine overheat enough to cause permanent damage... whereas once the dash lights come on it's usually too late. As a rule of thumb, an engine should stay under boiling, e.g. 100C/212F when climbing a grade if the cooling system is in good shape.
4. A Class III 2" receiver hitch is worth it even for a small car with
a light trailer. If you can't find one, you can get one fabricated by a welder. The cheap draw-tite, reese, etc. Class I hitches that just mount to sheet metal are unsafe, as those mount points will fatigue and fail if you tow a lot, even with a light weight trailer.
Sincerely, Tyler
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 5 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 15:21:36 -0700 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tow weight issues Message-ID: <42530406-20c8-ef1e-e80a-8bcd69d40552@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
It's relevant to situations where the tail starts wagging the dog, so to speak - the trailer sways side to side and starts yanking the rear of the tow vehicle around. Or pushing it around.
Part of avoiding this is correct tongue weight vs. trailer weight, usually tongue weight should be 10-15% of total trailer weight. There's other factors like the one you mention. Here's an article on it from GMC:
https://www.gmc.com/gmc-life/trucks/why-tongue-weight-is-important-for-safe-...
But even a big heavy tow rig can get whiplashed by a poorly balanced trailer. I once rented a big beefy tow-equipped Hertz full size x-cab pickup to help my brother move his 22' Airstream (no suitable tow vehicle in the family stable). Not that huge a trailer for such a truck. But it turned out I couldn't go over about 52-53 MPH because the trailer was poorly balanced. Tongue weight was probably too light or too heavy, too light my guess. Edge up towards 55 and it would start to sway side to side, doing its best to take the rear of the truck with it...scary.
Towing my M17 at the upper edge of my vehicle's ability, I definitely checked my tongue weight to make sure it was in the 10-15% range.
cheers, John
On 7/9/19 1:54 PM, Gail Russell wrote:
I am a total know-nothing on this subject, but from my acquaintances in the horse trailer towing world, I have been told that the wheel base length of the tow vehicle versus the weight of the tow vehicle is important. I presume this is relevant in a potential jack knifing situation, and is the problem when I am following a rig where the trailed vehicle is swinging from side to side.
Gail in Forestville CA
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 1:13 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Ditto most of this.
I am due for a brake flush and will spec DOT 4 to replace the DOT 3 that is most likely in there now.
If you are at all on the edge of your vehicle's towing capacity, and able to understand car talk (in general, not just the NPR show :-), the part about online forums is very applicable. For example my generation of subarus started in 2000, but the first year had significantly weaker brakes than 2001 and later. In other words not all vehicles of the same 'generation' in car maker terms are equal. I found that out on forums...obviously Subaru is not going to crow about it themselves.
Re engine temps, you want to keep your engine oil temp at 210-220F or below. Most cars don't have oil temp gauges (not with numbers on then anyhow) but if you have a new enough car as he says below you can get that info via added technology. Synthetic oils (if you are using them) may not break down as much above 210-220F as standard oils or blends, but in any case if your oil is above that, your whole engine is getting too hot even if the oil is not losing its lubricity. Coolant temp is not necessarily as good a measure as oil temp since various cooling system issues can give a low or normal reading on coolant temp when in fact you're overheating.
Re hitches, for an M17 or an M15 towed by smaller vehicles, for those smaller vehicles you will most likely find spec to be a Class II hitch. These are rated 3500 lbs towing and 300 lbs tongue weight, 1000+ lbs more than even a loaded M17 on trailer. They have a 1 1/4" receiver. They attach to the vehicle frame, not just to body metal. For example this is the one I put on my subie:
https://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Hitch/Subaru/Outback+Wagon/2001/36284.html?...
If you have a bigger heftier vehicle then your normal spec will be a Class III with higher weight limits, also bolts to frame, and a 2" receiver.
If you have an M15, which you can tow with a smaller car than an M17 for sure, then your vehicle spec hitch might be a Class I, 2000 lbs max tow weight and 200 lbs max tongue weight. That is plenty for an M15, and properly made Class I hitches also attach to the vehicle frame not just the body metal.
In other words, go with a hitch that is spec for your vehicle. That keeps you in a reasonable safety zone. Assuming you don't overload both the hitch and the vehicle that is... :-O
Any decent hitch from Class I up will attach to the vehicle frame, so as he says below avoid anything that just attaches to body metal (including "bumper hitches" on small trucks and similar).
cheers, John
On 7/7/19 1:43 PM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
I wanted to mention a few things about towing safely with a light
weight
tow vehicle:
1. Change the brake fluid annually or less with a high boiling point
fluid, especially if you have an unbraked trailer. As it absorbs water, the boiling temperature lowers rapidly, and will cause you to lose braking coming down a grade. I personally prefer to use ATE TYP200 which is a racing fluid, and boils at 536F dry and 388F wet (e.g. after about 2 years). If your car has several year old DOT 3 fluid, it could boil at temps as low as 257F, and lose all braking ability when the brakes aren't even very hot yet. Cars that take DOT 3 can use DOT 4 instead, which usually has a higher boiling point. Good ceramic brake pads and new racing grade fluid will drastically increase the braking capacity of any car or truck.
2. Find the online car forum for owners of your car model, and read
everything they say about towing safely- weakness, modifications, etc. Often some car models will need a few things like a different transmission fluid, different rear springs, or different brake pads to overcome minor design flaws and make towing safer.
3. Most cars nowadays have temperature sensors on everything, but they
don't report this data to the driver. With a bluetooth OBD-II dongle, and a smartphone app like Torque, you can get an audible alarm long before the transmission or engine overheat enough to cause permanent damage... whereas once the dash lights come on it's usually too late. As a rule of thumb, an engine should stay under boiling, e.g. 100C/212F when climbing a grade if the cooling system is in good shape.
4. A Class III 2" receiver hitch is worth it even for a small car with
a light trailer. If you can't find one, you can get one fabricated by a welder. The cheap draw-tite, reese, etc. Class I hitches that just mount to sheet metal are unsafe, as those mount points will fatigue and fail if you tow a lot, even with a light weight trailer.
Sincerely, Tyler
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 6 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 10:02:19 -0700 From: Rusty Knorr <rustyinafrica@yahoo.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: Towing issues Message-ID: <4D7C1C9C-9FEC-4E4A-AF72-6BCB29532E55@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
I just had my Subie oil changed and had them check my brake fluid, all was perfect after towing a half dozen times or so this year. The dealer assured me the transmission would have no issues so I?m feeling a little more at ease towing my M-15 Vanilla wherever I want to go.
Rusty
www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
------------------------------
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Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
------------------------------
End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 197, Issue 9 ************************************************
Saw only one M-17 at Pocket Yacht Palooza. Usually there are more M-boats there. Steve M-15 # 335
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Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
------------------------------
End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 197, Issue 9 ************************************************
James, Is the steering stiff only going to weather, or all the time? Is it stiff when sitting at the dock? If only when sailing upwind, it may be reflecting correct weather helm. If it seems extreme, you might want to investigate whether the mast rake is correct (around 2 degrees is typical per Jerry Montgomery), if your sails are worn out and baggy, and sail trim ie: luff tension, outhaul tension, reef in higher winds. If your previous boats had neutral helm, they probably weren't sailing upwind to their full potential. If stiff when sitting at the dock, investigate pintle alignment and tiller clearance from the transom cap. Les
On Jul 21, 2019, at 10:00 AM, James Horton <jhortonhfx@gmail.com> wrote:
Although I am very pleased with #662, I am a little disappointed with her steering. My previous 2 boats were a CD Typhoon and a Quickstep 24 , both very easy to steer,1 finger. I noticed that replacement Tillers for the M15 are shown as 47" in length (Ruddercraft and Defender) while my stock tiller that came with boat is around 36". Question , would the additional leverage gained from the extra 11 inches (perhaps at the expense of less cockpit space) be worth the $ 119 and hassle to switch out ? Regards Jamie Horton
On Wed, Jul 10, 2019, 15:01 , <montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Send montgomery_boats mailing list submissions to montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
https://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com
You can reach the person managing the list at montgomery_boats-owner@mailman.xmission.com
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Tow weight issues (John Schinnerer) 2. Re: List Members (Dave Scobie) 3. Re: montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 197, Issue 8 (Steve R.) 4. Re: Tow weight issues (Gail Russell) 5. Re: Tow weight issues (John Schinnerer) 6. Towing issues (Rusty Knorr)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 13:13:12 -0700 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tow weight issues Message-ID: <48b22c45-8ccc-4006-3198-e275ac522349@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Ditto most of this.
I am due for a brake flush and will spec DOT 4 to replace the DOT 3 that is most likely in there now.
If you are at all on the edge of your vehicle's towing capacity, and able to understand car talk (in general, not just the NPR show :-), the part about online forums is very applicable. For example my generation of subarus started in 2000, but the first year had significantly weaker brakes than 2001 and later. In other words not all vehicles of the same 'generation' in car maker terms are equal. I found that out on forums...obviously Subaru is not going to crow about it themselves.
Re engine temps, you want to keep your engine oil temp at 210-220F or below. Most cars don't have oil temp gauges (not with numbers on then anyhow) but if you have a new enough car as he says below you can get that info via added technology. Synthetic oils (if you are using them) may not break down as much above 210-220F as standard oils or blends, but in any case if your oil is above that, your whole engine is getting too hot even if the oil is not losing its lubricity. Coolant temp is not necessarily as good a measure as oil temp since various cooling system issues can give a low or normal reading on coolant temp when in fact you're overheating.
Re hitches, for an M17 or an M15 towed by smaller vehicles, for those smaller vehicles you will most likely find spec to be a Class II hitch. These are rated 3500 lbs towing and 300 lbs tongue weight, 1000+ lbs more than even a loaded M17 on trailer. They have a 1 1/4" receiver. They attach to the vehicle frame, not just to body metal. For example this is the one I put on my subie:
https://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Hitch/Subaru/Outback+Wagon/2001/36284.html?...
If you have a bigger heftier vehicle then your normal spec will be a Class III with higher weight limits, also bolts to frame, and a 2" receiver.
If you have an M15, which you can tow with a smaller car than an M17 for sure, then your vehicle spec hitch might be a Class I, 2000 lbs max tow weight and 200 lbs max tongue weight. That is plenty for an M15, and properly made Class I hitches also attach to the vehicle frame not just the body metal.
In other words, go with a hitch that is spec for your vehicle. That keeps you in a reasonable safety zone. Assuming you don't overload both the hitch and the vehicle that is... :-O
Any decent hitch from Class I up will attach to the vehicle frame, so as he says below avoid anything that just attaches to body metal (including "bumper hitches" on small trucks and similar).
cheers, John
On 7/7/19 1:43 PM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote: I wanted to mention a few things about towing safely with a light weight tow vehicle:
1. Change the brake fluid annually or less with a high boiling point fluid, especially if you have an unbraked trailer. As it absorbs water, the boiling temperature lowers rapidly, and will cause you to lose braking coming down a grade. I personally prefer to use ATE TYP200 which is a racing fluid, and boils at 536F dry and 388F wet (e.g. after about 2 years). If your car has several year old DOT 3 fluid, it could boil at temps as low as 257F, and lose all braking ability when the brakes aren't even very hot yet. Cars that take DOT 3 can use DOT 4 instead, which usually has a higher boiling point. Good ceramic brake pads and new racing grade fluid will drastically increase the braking capacity of any car or truck.
2. Find the online car forum for owners of your car model, and read everything they say about towing safely- weakness, modifications, etc. Often some car models will need a few things like a different transmission fluid, different rear springs, or different brake pads to overcome minor design flaws and make towing safer.
3. Most cars nowadays have temperature sensors on everything, but they don't report this data to the driver. With a bluetooth OBD-II dongle, and a smartphone app like Torque, you can get an audible alarm long before the transmission or engine overheat enough to cause permanent damage... whereas once the dash lights come on it's usually too late. As a rule of thumb, an engine should stay under boiling, e.g. 100C/212F when climbing a grade if the cooling system is in good shape.
4. A Class III 2" receiver hitch is worth it even for a small car with a light trailer. If you can't find one, you can get one fabricated by a welder. The cheap draw-tite, reese, etc. Class I hitches that just mount to sheet metal are unsafe, as those mount points will fatigue and fail if you tow a lot, even with a light weight trailer.
Sincerely, Tyler
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 13:25:24 -0700 From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: List Members Message-ID: <CAGjBOA75YNijvyWhSE3Ftt51GJUCEPskEUmipBBYHEBYt= 9Ghg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Find a prior email sent to the list by the person you wish to contact. Choose reply ALL. Check new email's header that should now show both the listproc address and that of the original poster. Delete the listproc email address.
Or -
Reply to the original email posted by the person you wish to contact. Their original post will have a lead header showing their email address (ex: 'On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, 10:11 AM George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com> wrote:'). Copy their email and paste in the send-to field. Delete the listproc address from the send-to field.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, 10:11 AM George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com> wrote:
How does one contact a list member off list? I whish to contact Connie Benneck regarding his books and as much of the discussion is not Montgomery oriented I do not wish to violate the list rules and post here.
Thanks George Merry Helen II 96 M15 602 "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
------------------------------
Message: 3 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 16:34:41 -0400 From: "Steve R." <stever707@gmail.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 197, Issue 8 Message-ID: <CA+qyhvUXjbyE16dF9x_nbveyaD7L+txeKC4_4U= POsOViGCOiA@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
George,
Look for the link near the top of every email "To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit" .
Follow the link.
At the bottom of the page you will see an additional option:
*montgomery_boats Subscribers* (*The subscribers list is only available to the list members.*)
Enter your address and password to visit the subscribers list:
=================================================
Follow these instructions and you will see everyone who publicly accepts emails.
If you forgot your password you may request that a new password is emailed to you. steve
Steve R. M-15 #119 Lexington KY now - Green Cove Spring FL sometime soon
<sniped>
Message: 1 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 12:10:39 -0500 From: George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com>
How does one contact a list member off list? I whish to contact Connie Benneck regarding his books and as much of the discussion is not
Montgomery
oriented I do not wish to violate the list rules and post here.
Thanks George Merry Helen II 96 M15 602
------------------------------
Message: 4 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 13:54:02 -0700 From: Gail Russell <gail@zeliga.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tow weight issues Message-ID: < CAKCiK2JHEF+65vDzHtvcbKhFf0494W4kD4K-MLCUqw7jx9yOfQ@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I am a total know-nothing on this subject, but from my acquaintances in the horse trailer towing world, I have been told that the wheel base length of the tow vehicle versus the weight of the tow vehicle is important. I presume this is relevant in a potential jack knifing situation, and is the problem when I am following a rig where the trailed vehicle is swinging from side to side.
Gail in Forestville CA
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 1:13 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Ditto most of this.
I am due for a brake flush and will spec DOT 4 to replace the DOT 3 that is most likely in there now.
If you are at all on the edge of your vehicle's towing capacity, and able to understand car talk (in general, not just the NPR show :-), the part about online forums is very applicable. For example my generation of subarus started in 2000, but the first year had significantly weaker brakes than 2001 and later. In other words not all vehicles of the same 'generation' in car maker terms are equal. I found that out on forums...obviously Subaru is not going to crow about it themselves.
Re engine temps, you want to keep your engine oil temp at 210-220F or below. Most cars don't have oil temp gauges (not with numbers on then anyhow) but if you have a new enough car as he says below you can get that info via added technology. Synthetic oils (if you are using them) may not break down as much above 210-220F as standard oils or blends, but in any case if your oil is above that, your whole engine is getting too hot even if the oil is not losing its lubricity. Coolant temp is not necessarily as good a measure as oil temp since various cooling system issues can give a low or normal reading on coolant temp when in fact you're overheating.
Re hitches, for an M17 or an M15 towed by smaller vehicles, for those smaller vehicles you will most likely find spec to be a Class II hitch. These are rated 3500 lbs towing and 300 lbs tongue weight, 1000+ lbs more than even a loaded M17 on trailer. They have a 1 1/4" receiver. They attach to the vehicle frame, not just to body metal. For example this is the one I put on my subie:
https://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Hitch/Subaru/Outback+Wagon/2001/36284.html?...
If you have a bigger heftier vehicle then your normal spec will be a Class III with higher weight limits, also bolts to frame, and a 2" receiver.
If you have an M15, which you can tow with a smaller car than an M17 for sure, then your vehicle spec hitch might be a Class I, 2000 lbs max tow weight and 200 lbs max tongue weight. That is plenty for an M15, and properly made Class I hitches also attach to the vehicle frame not just the body metal.
In other words, go with a hitch that is spec for your vehicle. That keeps you in a reasonable safety zone. Assuming you don't overload both the hitch and the vehicle that is... :-O
Any decent hitch from Class I up will attach to the vehicle frame, so as he says below avoid anything that just attaches to body metal (including "bumper hitches" on small trucks and similar).
cheers, John
On 7/7/19 1:43 PM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote: I wanted to mention a few things about towing safely with a light
weight
tow vehicle:
1. Change the brake fluid annually or less with a high boiling point
fluid, especially if you have an unbraked trailer. As it absorbs water, the boiling temperature lowers rapidly, and will cause you to lose braking coming down a grade. I personally prefer to use ATE TYP200 which is a racing fluid, and boils at 536F dry and 388F wet (e.g. after about 2 years). If your car has several year old DOT 3 fluid, it could boil at temps as low as 257F, and lose all braking ability when the brakes aren't even very hot yet. Cars that take DOT 3 can use DOT 4 instead, which usually has a higher boiling point. Good ceramic brake pads and new racing grade fluid will drastically increase the braking capacity of any car or truck.
2. Find the online car forum for owners of your car model, and read
everything they say about towing safely- weakness, modifications, etc. Often some car models will need a few things like a different transmission fluid, different rear springs, or different brake pads to overcome minor design flaws and make towing safer.
3. Most cars nowadays have temperature sensors on everything, but they
don't report this data to the driver. With a bluetooth OBD-II dongle, and a smartphone app like Torque, you can get an audible alarm long before the transmission or engine overheat enough to cause permanent damage... whereas once the dash lights come on it's usually too late. As a rule of thumb, an engine should stay under boiling, e.g. 100C/212F when climbing a grade if the cooling system is in good shape.
4. A Class III 2" receiver hitch is worth it even for a small car with
a light trailer. If you can't find one, you can get one fabricated by a welder. The cheap draw-tite, reese, etc. Class I hitches that just mount to sheet metal are unsafe, as those mount points will fatigue and fail if you tow a lot, even with a light weight trailer.
Sincerely, Tyler
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 5 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 15:21:36 -0700 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tow weight issues Message-ID: <42530406-20c8-ef1e-e80a-8bcd69d40552@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
It's relevant to situations where the tail starts wagging the dog, so to speak - the trailer sways side to side and starts yanking the rear of the tow vehicle around. Or pushing it around.
Part of avoiding this is correct tongue weight vs. trailer weight, usually tongue weight should be 10-15% of total trailer weight. There's other factors like the one you mention. Here's an article on it from GMC:
https://www.gmc.com/gmc-life/trucks/why-tongue-weight-is-important-for-safe-...
But even a big heavy tow rig can get whiplashed by a poorly balanced trailer. I once rented a big beefy tow-equipped Hertz full size x-cab pickup to help my brother move his 22' Airstream (no suitable tow vehicle in the family stable). Not that huge a trailer for such a truck. But it turned out I couldn't go over about 52-53 MPH because the trailer was poorly balanced. Tongue weight was probably too light or too heavy, too light my guess. Edge up towards 55 and it would start to sway side to side, doing its best to take the rear of the truck with it...scary.
Towing my M17 at the upper edge of my vehicle's ability, I definitely checked my tongue weight to make sure it was in the 10-15% range.
cheers, John
On 7/9/19 1:54 PM, Gail Russell wrote: I am a total know-nothing on this subject, but from my acquaintances in the horse trailer towing world, I have been told that the wheel base length of the tow vehicle versus the weight of the tow vehicle is important. I presume this is relevant in a potential jack knifing situation, and is the problem when I am following a rig where the trailed vehicle is swinging from side to side.
Gail in Forestville CA
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 1:13 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Ditto most of this.
I am due for a brake flush and will spec DOT 4 to replace the DOT 3 that is most likely in there now.
If you are at all on the edge of your vehicle's towing capacity, and able to understand car talk (in general, not just the NPR show :-), the part about online forums is very applicable. For example my generation of subarus started in 2000, but the first year had significantly weaker brakes than 2001 and later. In other words not all vehicles of the same 'generation' in car maker terms are equal. I found that out on forums...obviously Subaru is not going to crow about it themselves.
Re engine temps, you want to keep your engine oil temp at 210-220F or below. Most cars don't have oil temp gauges (not with numbers on then anyhow) but if you have a new enough car as he says below you can get that info via added technology. Synthetic oils (if you are using them) may not break down as much above 210-220F as standard oils or blends, but in any case if your oil is above that, your whole engine is getting too hot even if the oil is not losing its lubricity. Coolant temp is not necessarily as good a measure as oil temp since various cooling system issues can give a low or normal reading on coolant temp when in fact you're overheating.
Re hitches, for an M17 or an M15 towed by smaller vehicles, for those smaller vehicles you will most likely find spec to be a Class II hitch. These are rated 3500 lbs towing and 300 lbs tongue weight, 1000+ lbs more than even a loaded M17 on trailer. They have a 1 1/4" receiver. They attach to the vehicle frame, not just to body metal. For example this is the one I put on my subie:
https://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Hitch/Subaru/Outback+Wagon/2001/36284.html?...
If you have a bigger heftier vehicle then your normal spec will be a Class III with higher weight limits, also bolts to frame, and a 2" receiver.
If you have an M15, which you can tow with a smaller car than an M17 for sure, then your vehicle spec hitch might be a Class I, 2000 lbs max tow weight and 200 lbs max tongue weight. That is plenty for an M15, and properly made Class I hitches also attach to the vehicle frame not just the body metal.
In other words, go with a hitch that is spec for your vehicle. That keeps you in a reasonable safety zone. Assuming you don't overload both the hitch and the vehicle that is... :-O
Any decent hitch from Class I up will attach to the vehicle frame, so as he says below avoid anything that just attaches to body metal (including "bumper hitches" on small trucks and similar).
cheers, John
On 7/7/19 1:43 PM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote: I wanted to mention a few things about towing safely with a light
weight
tow vehicle:
1. Change the brake fluid annually or less with a high boiling point
fluid, especially if you have an unbraked trailer. As it absorbs water, the boiling temperature lowers rapidly, and will cause you to lose braking coming down a grade. I personally prefer to use ATE TYP200 which is a racing fluid, and boils at 536F dry and 388F wet (e.g. after about 2 years). If your car has several year old DOT 3 fluid, it could boil at temps as low as 257F, and lose all braking ability when the brakes aren't even very hot yet. Cars that take DOT 3 can use DOT 4 instead, which usually has a higher boiling point. Good ceramic brake pads and new racing grade fluid will drastically increase the braking capacity of any car or truck.
2. Find the online car forum for owners of your car model, and read
everything they say about towing safely- weakness, modifications, etc. Often some car models will need a few things like a different transmission fluid, different rear springs, or different brake pads to overcome minor design flaws and make towing safer.
3. Most cars nowadays have temperature sensors on everything, but they
don't report this data to the driver. With a bluetooth OBD-II dongle, and a smartphone app like Torque, you can get an audible alarm long before the transmission or engine overheat enough to cause permanent damage... whereas once the dash lights come on it's usually too late. As a rule of thumb, an engine should stay under boiling, e.g. 100C/212F when climbing a grade if the cooling system is in good shape.
4. A Class III 2" receiver hitch is worth it even for a small car with
a light trailer. If you can't find one, you can get one fabricated by a welder. The cheap draw-tite, reese, etc. Class I hitches that just mount to sheet metal are unsafe, as those mount points will fatigue and fail if you tow a lot, even with a light weight trailer.
Sincerely, Tyler
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 6 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 10:02:19 -0700 From: Rusty Knorr <rustyinafrica@yahoo.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: Towing issues Message-ID: <4D7C1C9C-9FEC-4E4A-AF72-6BCB29532E55@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
I just had my Subie oil changed and had them check my brake fluid, all was perfect after towing a half dozen times or so this year. The dealer assured me the transmission would have no issues so I?m feeling a little more at ease towing my M-15 Vanilla wherever I want to go.
Rusty
www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________ montgomery_boats mailing list montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com https://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
------------------------------
End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 197, Issue 9 ************************************************
James. Les outlined all the main things to consider. I'll add a couple more: You are used to much heavier boats. The M15 gives very direct feedback on how she is sailing. As she powers up she will let you know and if overpowered by excessive weather helm. Boat trim by weight of stores and crew really matter on the M15. She like 10degrees of heel. She naturally will go to this with the crew adjusting seating to lee in light winds. As she approached 20degrees she slows down but gets even more stuff (fun but not fast). She dislikes sailing flat, even off the wind. Heel her with crew weight going down wind (when in light wind also heel to the side of the boom is set helps keep the boom outboard). She sails best if the crew is forward in the cockpit. DON'T sit at the transom! If you will single hand the boat often this is where a longer tiller helps. Also get a tiller extension. If alone sit at the front of the cockpit. If two people sit forward and be shoulder to shoulder with the forward person leaning against the cabin (depending on wind maybe two on upwind, maybe one each side both sitting forward, or both on lee side - get the boat to heel at 10degrees). Don't but weight aft! You don't want the transom dragging!! For a longer tiller contact John at JOWoodworks. A single guy shop making wood products for boats. He has patterns for all Jerry's boats: Mboats and Sages. See - http://www.jowoodworks.com :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/ On Sun, Jul 21, 2019, 10:33 AM Les Schuldt <les.schuldt@gmail.com> wrote:
James,
Is the steering stiff only going to weather, or all the time? Is it stiff when sitting at the dock?
If only when sailing upwind, it may be reflecting correct weather helm. If it seems extreme, you might want to investigate whether the mast rake is correct (around 2 degrees is typical per Jerry Montgomery), if your sails are worn out and baggy, and sail trim ie: luff tension, outhaul tension, reef in higher winds.
If your previous boats had neutral helm, they probably weren't sailing upwind to their full potential.
If stiff when sitting at the dock, investigate pintle alignment and tiller clearance from the transom cap.
Les
On Jul 21, 2019, at 10:00 AM, James Horton <jhortonhfx@gmail.com> wrote:
Although I am very pleased with #662, I am a little disappointed with her steering. My previous 2 boats were a CD Typhoon and a Quickstep 24 , both very easy to steer,1 finger. I noticed that replacement Tillers for the M15 are shown as 47" in length (Ruddercraft and Defender) while my stock tiller that came with boat is around 36". Question , would the additional leverage gained from the extra 11 inches (perhaps at the expense of less cockpit space) be worth the $ 119 and hassle to switch out ? Regards Jamie Horton
On Wed, Jul 10, 2019, 15:01 , < montgomery_boats-request@mailman.xmission.com> wrote:
Send montgomery_boats mailing list submissions to montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of montgomery_boats digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Tow weight issues (John Schinnerer) 2. Re: List Members (Dave Scobie) 3. Re: montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 197, Issue 8 (Steve R.) 4. Re: Tow weight issues (Gail Russell) 5. Re: Tow weight issues (John Schinnerer) 6. Towing issues (Rusty Knorr)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 13:13:12 -0700 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tow weight issues Message-ID: <48b22c45-8ccc-4006-3198-e275ac522349@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Ditto most of this.
I am due for a brake flush and will spec DOT 4 to replace the DOT 3 that is most likely in there now.
If you are at all on the edge of your vehicle's towing capacity, and able to understand car talk (in general, not just the NPR show :-), the part about online forums is very applicable. For example my generation of subarus started in 2000, but the first year had significantly weaker brakes than 2001 and later. In other words not all vehicles of the same 'generation' in car maker terms are equal. I found that out on forums...obviously Subaru is not going to crow about it themselves.
Re engine temps, you want to keep your engine oil temp at 210-220F or below. Most cars don't have oil temp gauges (not with numbers on then anyhow) but if you have a new enough car as he says below you can get that info via added technology. Synthetic oils (if you are using them) may not break down as much above 210-220F as standard oils or blends, but in any case if your oil is above that, your whole engine is getting too hot even if the oil is not losing its lubricity. Coolant temp is not necessarily as good a measure as oil temp since various cooling system issues can give a low or normal reading on coolant temp when in fact you're overheating.
Re hitches, for an M17 or an M15 towed by smaller vehicles, for those smaller vehicles you will most likely find spec to be a Class II hitch. These are rated 3500 lbs towing and 300 lbs tongue weight, 1000+ lbs more than even a loaded M17 on trailer. They have a 1 1/4" receiver. They attach to the vehicle frame, not just to body metal. For example this is the one I put on my subie:
https://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Hitch/Subaru/Outback+Wagon/2001/36284.html?...
If you have a bigger heftier vehicle then your normal spec will be a Class III with higher weight limits, also bolts to frame, and a 2" receiver.
If you have an M15, which you can tow with a smaller car than an M17 for sure, then your vehicle spec hitch might be a Class I, 2000 lbs max tow weight and 200 lbs max tongue weight. That is plenty for an M15, and properly made Class I hitches also attach to the vehicle frame not just the body metal.
In other words, go with a hitch that is spec for your vehicle. That keeps you in a reasonable safety zone. Assuming you don't overload both the hitch and the vehicle that is... :-O
Any decent hitch from Class I up will attach to the vehicle frame, so as he says below avoid anything that just attaches to body metal (including "bumper hitches" on small trucks and similar).
cheers, John
On 7/7/19 1:43 PM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote: I wanted to mention a few things about towing safely with a light
weight
tow vehicle:
1. Change the brake fluid annually or less with a high boiling point
fluid, especially if you have an unbraked trailer. As it absorbs water, the boiling temperature lowers rapidly, and will cause you to lose braking coming down a grade. I personally prefer to use ATE TYP200 which is a racing fluid, and boils at 536F dry and 388F wet (e.g. after about 2 years). If your car has several year old DOT 3 fluid, it could boil at temps as low as 257F, and lose all braking ability when the brakes aren't even very hot yet. Cars that take DOT 3 can use DOT 4 instead, which usually has a higher boiling point. Good ceramic brake pads and new racing grade fluid will drastically increase the braking capacity of any car or truck.
2. Find the online car forum for owners of your car model, and read
everything they say about towing safely- weakness, modifications, etc. Often some car models will need a few things like a different transmission fluid, different rear springs, or different brake pads to overcome minor design flaws and make towing safer.
3. Most cars nowadays have temperature sensors on everything, but they
don't report this data to the driver. With a bluetooth OBD-II dongle, and a smartphone app like Torque, you can get an audible alarm long before the transmission or engine overheat enough to cause permanent damage... whereas once the dash lights come on it's usually too late. As a rule of thumb, an engine should stay under boiling, e.g. 100C/212F when climbing a grade if the cooling system is in good shape.
4. A Class III 2" receiver hitch is worth it even for a small car with
a light trailer. If you can't find one, you can get one fabricated by a welder. The cheap draw-tite, reese, etc. Class I hitches that just mount to sheet metal are unsafe, as those mount points will fatigue and fail if you tow a lot, even with a light weight trailer.
Sincerely, Tyler
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 13:25:24 -0700 From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: List Members Message-ID: <CAGjBOA75YNijvyWhSE3Ftt51GJUCEPskEUmipBBYHEBYt= 9Ghg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Find a prior email sent to the list by the person you wish to contact. Choose reply ALL. Check new email's header that should now show both the listproc address and that of the original poster. Delete the listproc email address.
Or -
Reply to the original email posted by the person you wish to contact. Their original post will have a lead header showing their email address (ex: 'On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, 10:11 AM George Iemmolo < griemmolo2@gmail.com> wrote:'). Copy their email and paste in the send-to field. Delete the listproc address from the send-to field.
:: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred/
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, 10:11 AM George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com> wrote:
How does one contact a list member off list? I whish to contact Connie Benneck regarding his books and as much of the discussion is not Montgomery oriented I do not wish to violate the list rules and post here.
Thanks George Merry Helen II 96 M15 602 "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
------------------------------
Message: 3 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 16:34:41 -0400 From: "Steve R." <stever707@gmail.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 197, Issue 8 Message-ID: <CA+qyhvUXjbyE16dF9x_nbveyaD7L+txeKC4_4U= POsOViGCOiA@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
George,
Look for the link near the top of every email "To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit" .
Follow the link.
At the bottom of the page you will see an additional option:
*montgomery_boats Subscribers* (*The subscribers list is only available to the list members.*)
Enter your address and password to visit the subscribers list:
=================================================
Follow these instructions and you will see everyone who publicly accepts emails.
If you forgot your password you may request that a new password is emailed to you. steve
Steve R. M-15 #119 Lexington KY now - Green Cove Spring FL sometime soon
<sniped>
Message: 1 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 12:10:39 -0500 From: George Iemmolo <griemmolo2@gmail.com>
How does one contact a list member off list? I whish to contact Connie Benneck regarding his books and as much of the discussion is not
Montgomery
oriented I do not wish to violate the list rules and post here.
Thanks George Merry Helen II 96 M15 602
------------------------------
Message: 4 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 13:54:02 -0700 From: Gail Russell <gail@zeliga.com> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tow weight issues Message-ID: < CAKCiK2JHEF+65vDzHtvcbKhFf0494W4kD4K-MLCUqw7jx9yOfQ@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I am a total know-nothing on this subject, but from my acquaintances in the horse trailer towing world, I have been told that the wheel base length of the tow vehicle versus the weight of the tow vehicle is important. I presume this is relevant in a potential jack knifing situation, and is the problem when I am following a rig where the trailed vehicle is swinging from side to side.
Gail in Forestville CA
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 1:13 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Ditto most of this.
I am due for a brake flush and will spec DOT 4 to replace the DOT 3 that is most likely in there now.
If you are at all on the edge of your vehicle's towing capacity, and able to understand car talk (in general, not just the NPR show :-), the part about online forums is very applicable. For example my generation of subarus started in 2000, but the first year had significantly weaker brakes than 2001 and later. In other words not all vehicles of the same 'generation' in car maker terms are equal. I found that out on forums...obviously Subaru is not going to crow about it themselves.
Re engine temps, you want to keep your engine oil temp at 210-220F or below. Most cars don't have oil temp gauges (not with numbers on then anyhow) but if you have a new enough car as he says below you can get that info via added technology. Synthetic oils (if you are using them) may not break down as much above 210-220F as standard oils or blends, but in any case if your oil is above that, your whole engine is getting too hot even if the oil is not losing its lubricity. Coolant temp is not necessarily as good a measure as oil temp since various cooling system issues can give a low or normal reading on coolant temp when in fact you're overheating.
Re hitches, for an M17 or an M15 towed by smaller vehicles, for those smaller vehicles you will most likely find spec to be a Class II hitch. These are rated 3500 lbs towing and 300 lbs tongue weight, 1000+ lbs more than even a loaded M17 on trailer. They have a 1 1/4" receiver. They attach to the vehicle frame, not just to body metal. For example this is the one I put on my subie:
https://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Hitch/Subaru/Outback+Wagon/2001/36284.html?...
If you have a bigger heftier vehicle then your normal spec will be a Class III with higher weight limits, also bolts to frame, and a 2" receiver.
If you have an M15, which you can tow with a smaller car than an M17
for
sure, then your vehicle spec hitch might be a Class I, 2000 lbs max tow weight and 200 lbs max tongue weight. That is plenty for an M15, and properly made Class I hitches also attach to the vehicle frame not just the body metal.
In other words, go with a hitch that is spec for your vehicle. That keeps you in a reasonable safety zone. Assuming you don't overload both the hitch and the vehicle that is... :-O
Any decent hitch from Class I up will attach to the vehicle frame, so as he says below avoid anything that just attaches to body metal (including "bumper hitches" on small trucks and similar).
cheers, John
On 7/7/19 1:43 PM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote: I wanted to mention a few things about towing safely with a light weight tow vehicle:
1. Change the brake fluid annually or less with a high boiling point fluid, especially if you have an unbraked trailer. As it absorbs water, the boiling temperature lowers rapidly, and will cause you to lose braking coming down a grade. I personally prefer to use ATE TYP200 which is a racing fluid, and boils at 536F dry and 388F wet (e.g. after about 2 years). If your car has several year old DOT 3 fluid, it could boil at temps as low as 257F, and lose all braking ability when the brakes aren't even very hot yet. Cars that take DOT 3 can use DOT 4 instead, which usually has a higher boiling point. Good ceramic brake pads and new racing grade fluid will drastically increase the braking capacity of any car or truck.
2. Find the online car forum for owners of your car model, and read everything they say about towing safely- weakness, modifications, etc. Often some car models will need a few things like a different transmission fluid, different rear springs, or different brake pads to overcome minor design flaws and make towing safer.
3. Most cars nowadays have temperature sensors on everything, but they don't report this data to the driver. With a bluetooth OBD-II dongle, and a smartphone app like Torque, you can get an audible alarm long before the transmission or engine overheat enough to cause permanent damage... whereas once the dash lights come on it's usually too late. As a rule of thumb, an engine should stay under boiling, e.g. 100C/212F when climbing a grade if the cooling system is in good shape.
4. A Class III 2" receiver hitch is worth it even for a small car with a light trailer. If you can't find one, you can get one fabricated by a welder. The cheap draw-tite, reese, etc. Class I hitches that just mount to sheet metal are unsafe, as those mount points will fatigue and fail if you tow a lot, even with a light weight trailer.
Sincerely, Tyler
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 5 Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 15:21:36 -0700 From: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tow weight issues Message-ID: <42530406-20c8-ef1e-e80a-8bcd69d40552@eco-living.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
It's relevant to situations where the tail starts wagging the dog, so to speak - the trailer sways side to side and starts yanking the rear of the tow vehicle around. Or pushing it around.
Part of avoiding this is correct tongue weight vs. trailer weight, usually tongue weight should be 10-15% of total trailer weight. There's other factors like the one you mention. Here's an article on it from GMC:
https://www.gmc.com/gmc-life/trucks/why-tongue-weight-is-important-for-safe-...
But even a big heavy tow rig can get whiplashed by a poorly balanced trailer. I once rented a big beefy tow-equipped Hertz full size x-cab pickup to help my brother move his 22' Airstream (no suitable tow vehicle in the family stable). Not that huge a trailer for such a truck. But it turned out I couldn't go over about 52-53 MPH because the trailer was poorly balanced. Tongue weight was probably too light or too heavy, too light my guess. Edge up towards 55 and it would start to sway side to side, doing its best to take the rear of the truck with it...scary.
Towing my M17 at the upper edge of my vehicle's ability, I definitely checked my tongue weight to make sure it was in the 10-15% range.
cheers, John
On 7/9/19 1:54 PM, Gail Russell wrote: I am a total know-nothing on this subject, but from my acquaintances in the horse trailer towing world, I have been told that the wheel base length of the tow vehicle versus the weight of the tow vehicle is important. I presume this is relevant in a potential jack knifing situation, and is the problem when I am following a rig where the trailed vehicle is swinging from side to side.
Gail in Forestville CA
On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 1:13 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Ditto most of this.
I am due for a brake flush and will spec DOT 4 to replace the DOT 3
that
is most likely in there now.
If you are at all on the edge of your vehicle's towing capacity, and able to understand car talk (in general, not just the NPR show :-), the part about online forums is very applicable. For example my generation of subarus started in 2000, but the first year had significantly weaker brakes than 2001 and later. In other words not all vehicles of the same 'generation' in car maker terms are equal. I found that out on forums...obviously Subaru is not going to crow about it themselves.
Re engine temps, you want to keep your engine oil temp at 210-220F or below. Most cars don't have oil temp gauges (not with numbers on then anyhow) but if you have a new enough car as he says below you can get that info via added technology. Synthetic oils (if you are using them) may not break down as much above 210-220F as standard oils or blends, but in any case if your oil is above that, your whole engine is getting too hot even if the oil is not losing its lubricity. Coolant temp is not necessarily as good a measure as oil temp since various cooling system issues can give a low or normal reading on coolant temp when in fact you're overheating.
Re hitches, for an M17 or an M15 towed by smaller vehicles, for those smaller vehicles you will most likely find spec to be a Class II hitch. These are rated 3500 lbs towing and 300 lbs tongue weight, 1000+ lbs more than even a loaded M17 on trailer. They have a 1 1/4" receiver. They attach to the vehicle frame, not just to body metal. For example this is the one I put on my subie:
https://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Hitch/Subaru/Outback+Wagon/2001/36284.html?...
If you have a bigger heftier vehicle then your normal spec will be a Class III with higher weight limits, also bolts to frame, and a 2" receiver.
If you have an M15, which you can tow with a smaller car than an M17
for
sure, then your vehicle spec hitch might be a Class I, 2000 lbs max tow weight and 200 lbs max tongue weight. That is plenty for an M15, and properly made Class I hitches also attach to the vehicle frame not just the body metal.
In other words, go with a hitch that is spec for your vehicle. That keeps you in a reasonable safety zone. Assuming you don't overload both the hitch and the vehicle that is... :-O
Any decent hitch from Class I up will attach to the vehicle frame, so as he says below avoid anything that just attaches to body metal (including "bumper hitches" on small trucks and similar).
cheers, John
On 7/7/19 1:43 PM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote: I wanted to mention a few things about towing safely with a light weight tow vehicle:
1. Change the brake fluid annually or less with a high boiling point fluid, especially if you have an unbraked trailer. As it absorbs water, the boiling temperature lowers rapidly, and will cause you to lose braking coming down a grade. I personally prefer to use ATE TYP200 which is a racing fluid, and boils at 536F dry and 388F wet (e.g. after about 2 years). If your car has several year old DOT 3 fluid, it could boil at temps as low as 257F, and lose all braking ability when the brakes aren't even very hot yet. Cars that take DOT 3 can use DOT 4 instead, which usually has a higher boiling point. Good ceramic brake pads and new racing grade fluid will drastically increase the braking capacity of any car or truck.
2. Find the online car forum for owners of your car model, and read everything they say about towing safely- weakness, modifications, etc. Often some car models will need a few things like a different transmission fluid, different rear springs, or different brake pads to overcome minor design flaws and make towing safer.
3. Most cars nowadays have temperature sensors on everything, but they don't report this data to the driver. With a bluetooth OBD-II dongle, and a smartphone app like Torque, you can get an audible alarm long before the transmission or engine overheat enough to cause permanent damage... whereas once the dash lights come on it's usually too late. As a rule of thumb, an engine should stay under boiling, e.g. 100C/212F when climbing a grade if the cooling system is in good shape.
4. A Class III 2" receiver hitch is worth it even for a small car with a light trailer. If you can't find one, you can get one fabricated by a welder. The cheap draw-tite, reese, etc. Class I hitches that just mount to sheet metal are unsafe, as those mount points will fatigue and fail if you tow a lot, even with a light weight trailer.
Sincerely, Tyler
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
------------------------------
Message: 6 Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 10:02:19 -0700 From: Rusty Knorr <rustyinafrica@yahoo.com> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: M_Boats: Towing issues Message-ID: <4D7C1C9C-9FEC-4E4A-AF72-6BCB29532E55@yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
I just had my Subie oil changed and had them check my brake fluid, all was perfect after towing a half dozen times or so this year. The dealer assured me the transmission would have no issues so I?m feeling a little more at ease towing my M-15 Vanilla wherever I want to go.
Rusty
www.rustyknorr.weebly.com
------------------------------
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End of montgomery_boats Digest, Vol 197, Issue 9 ************************************************
participants (4)
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Dave Scobie -
James Horton -
Les Schuldt -
Steve Trapp