Re: M_Boats: Season finale adventures, and "hove to" on main
Any idea what the wind speeds might have been? Dan Farrell M17 #301 John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
You're welcome...the lake and the County park & marina are a great resource - when there's water enough to fill it, at least (this is the first year it got full in last six years; last year it maxed at 70%, this year we still have about 74%; the shallow end of docks goes aground at about 70%).
Speaking of Howard Prairie lake, yesterday was the windiest I've ever sailed there. I headed out with the usual 80% jib and first (relatively small) "flattening" reef in main, 'cause it looked like "the usual" winds.
But it was more, especially some of the gusts were more intense, and it picked up a bit even. I ended up putting the next reef in the main - the first "full" reef that really takes a bite out of sail area (I've got three reef points - a relatively small one that someone here said was probably a "flattening" reef, and then two more bigger ones).
First time I've done that since I got the boat. Definitely made it more manageable. And surprising how fast she still moved along, with the 80% jib still on.
cheers, John S.
On 10/08/2017 04:35 AM, Burton Lowry wrote:
Hi John S,
Your mention of Howard Prarie brings back many memories for me, thank you.
Back in the mid 60's, we would go fishing there in our wooden drift boat and often come away with all getting nearly full limits of 10 each. Those, into the smoker.
Back then, sailboats were a mystery to me but I got involved with the Sea Scouts, Ship 3, in Medford and learned to sail. (Graduated from Medford High '72). Now we live in Maine on the coast and have had a number of boats--now, for sail just a little Montgomery 12. By the way, with the wind, tide, and currents here the waves are steep--more like a lake than the Pacific.
Thanks for the reminder of those days.
Blessings,
Burt L.
On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 1:09 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Hi all,
Just to report that I put Pajarita back in the water at Howard Prairie lake up in the hills Thursday for a brief while...we're having a last blast of mild early fall weather.
First couple days, there were very light winds early afternoon and I actually got to use the 150 (Genoa) first time in quite a while.
Yesterday I started with that and then after ghosting for maybe 20 minutes, in 15 minutes as lake winds do around here, it reversed and kicked up to overpowered... So I "hove to" on main, and did a headsail change mid-lake.
I have experimented before with some ideas I've read about how to sort of "heave to" on main - it's not like the classic with the backwinded jib. It's more of a slightly luffing windward experience. Basically, somewhere above beam reach, and, not super close to the wind. Rudder set to turn very slightly to windward, and mainsheet a bit soft.
My M17 at least does this quite well, sort of "scalloping" gently to windward (with extra sideways drift of course). She loses way as the slight rudder turns her to windward, but there's not enough speed or rudder to anywhere near come through the wind, so the bow blows off the wind again and luffing reduces and she gains just enough way for the rudder to swing her gently back to slightly luffing...and so on.
This was gusty conditions, without any complications. I have a bungee & jam cleat "tiller holder" and I suspect the flex in the system helps make it smoother - the tiller will give some, but then spring back to its setting, if a gust suddenly blows the bow off faster or scoots her forward faster.
I also wanted to get her out to test having moved the jib sheet cam cleats to a better position than where they were when I got her. I will post some pix separately to show the modification. Suffice to say for now it is WAY better, whether single-handing or with passengers, and I still have no idea why some previous owner put those cam cleats where they did...!
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Wish I were better at estimating...or had a wind meter. From the windy.com forecast and NOAA forecast extrapolations for that day, and prior experience with lesser wind on the same lake, and times out with friends elsewhere who did have wind meters...I would guess the peak gusts were hitting ~25+, and wind varying between 15-20 in between. They're the kind of lake gusts where the very first burst might be even more than the duration of the gust, then it backs off for the duration of the gust, then back to the "prevailing" wind for a while. cheers, John S. On 10/14/2017 04:58 PM, Dan Farrell wrote:
Any idea what the wind speeds might have been?
Dan Farrell M17 #301
John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
You're welcome...the lake and the County park & marina are a great resource - when there's water enough to fill it, at least (this is the first year it got full in last six years; last year it maxed at 70%, this year we still have about 74%; the shallow end of docks goes aground at about 70%).
Speaking of Howard Prairie lake, yesterday was the windiest I've ever sailed there. I headed out with the usual 80% jib and first (relatively small) "flattening" reef in main, 'cause it looked like "the usual" winds.
But it was more, especially some of the gusts were more intense, and it picked up a bit even. I ended up putting the next reef in the main - the first "full" reef that really takes a bite out of sail area (I've got three reef points - a relatively small one that someone here said was probably a "flattening" reef, and then two more bigger ones).
First time I've done that since I got the boat. Definitely made it more manageable. And surprising how fast she still moved along, with the 80% jib still on.
cheers, John S.
On 10/08/2017 04:35 AM, Burton Lowry wrote:
Hi John S,
Your mention of Howard Prarie brings back many memories for me, thank you.
Back in the mid 60's, we would go fishing there in our wooden drift boat and often come away with all getting nearly full limits of 10 each. Those, into the smoker.
Back then, sailboats were a mystery to me but I got involved with the Sea Scouts, Ship 3, in Medford and learned to sail. (Graduated from Medford High '72). Now we live in Maine on the coast and have had a number of boats--now, for sail just a little Montgomery 12. By the way, with the wind, tide, and currents here the waves are steep--more like a lake than the Pacific.
Thanks for the reminder of those days.
Blessings,
Burt L.
On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 1:09 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Hi all,
Just to report that I put Pajarita back in the water at Howard Prairie lake up in the hills Thursday for a brief while...we're having a last blast of mild early fall weather.
First couple days, there were very light winds early afternoon and I actually got to use the 150 (Genoa) first time in quite a while.
Yesterday I started with that and then after ghosting for maybe 20 minutes, in 15 minutes as lake winds do around here, it reversed and kicked up to overpowered... So I "hove to" on main, and did a headsail change mid-lake.
I have experimented before with some ideas I've read about how to sort of "heave to" on main - it's not like the classic with the backwinded jib. It's more of a slightly luffing windward experience. Basically, somewhere above beam reach, and, not super close to the wind. Rudder set to turn very slightly to windward, and mainsheet a bit soft.
My M17 at least does this quite well, sort of "scalloping" gently to windward (with extra sideways drift of course). She loses way as the slight rudder turns her to windward, but there's not enough speed or rudder to anywhere near come through the wind, so the bow blows off the wind again and luffing reduces and she gains just enough way for the rudder to swing her gently back to slightly luffing...and so on.
This was gusty conditions, without any complications. I have a bungee & jam cleat "tiller holder" and I suspect the flex in the system helps make it smoother - the tiller will give some, but then spring back to its setting, if a gust suddenly blows the bow off faster or scoots her forward faster.
I also wanted to get her out to test having moved the jib sheet cam cleats to a better position than where they were when I got her. I will post some pix separately to show the modification. Suffice to say for now it is WAY better, whether single-handing or with passengers, and I still have no idea why some previous owner put those cam cleats where they did...!
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
John Is that Knots or Mi./Hr.? ​ George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails" On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 2:54 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Wish I were better at estimating...or had a wind meter.
From the windy.com forecast and NOAA forecast extrapolations for that day, and prior experience with lesser wind on the same lake, and times out with friends elsewhere who did have wind meters...I would guess the peak gusts were hitting ~25+, and wind varying between 15-20 in between. They're the kind of lake gusts where the very first burst might be even more than the duration of the gust, then it backs off for the duration of the gust, then back to the "prevailing" wind for a while.
cheers, John S.
On 10/14/2017 04:58 PM, Dan Farrell wrote:
Any idea what the wind speeds might have been?
Dan Farrell M17 #301
John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
You're welcome...the lake and the County park & marina are a great
resource - when there's water enough to fill it, at least (this is the first year it got full in last six years; last year it maxed at 70%, this year we still have about 74%; the shallow end of docks goes aground at about 70%).
Speaking of Howard Prairie lake, yesterday was the windiest I've ever sailed there. I headed out with the usual 80% jib and first (relatively small) "flattening" reef in main, 'cause it looked like "the usual" winds.
But it was more, especially some of the gusts were more intense, and it picked up a bit even. I ended up putting the next reef in the main - the first "full" reef that really takes a bite out of sail area (I've got three reef points - a relatively small one that someone here said was probably a "flattening" reef, and then two more bigger ones).
First time I've done that since I got the boat. Definitely made it more manageable. And surprising how fast she still moved along, with the 80% jib still on.
cheers, John S.
On 10/08/2017 04:35 AM, Burton Lowry wrote:
Hi John S,
Your mention of Howard Prarie brings back many memories for me, thank you.
Back in the mid 60's, we would go fishing there in our wooden drift boat and often come away with all getting nearly full limits of 10 each. Those, into the smoker.
Back then, sailboats were a mystery to me but I got involved with the Sea Scouts, Ship 3, in Medford and learned to sail. (Graduated from Medford High '72). Now we live in Maine on the coast and have had a number of boats--now, for sail just a little Montgomery 12. By the way, with the wind, tide, and currents here the waves are steep--more like a lake than the Pacific.
Thanks for the reminder of those days.
Blessings,
Burt L.
On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 1:09 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Hi all,
Just to report that I put Pajarita back in the water at Howard Prairie lake up in the hills Thursday for a brief while...we're having a last blast of mild early fall weather.
First couple days, there were very light winds early afternoon and I actually got to use the 150 (Genoa) first time in quite a while.
Yesterday I started with that and then after ghosting for maybe 20 minutes, in 15 minutes as lake winds do around here, it reversed and kicked up to overpowered... So I "hove to" on main, and did a headsail change mid-lake.
I have experimented before with some ideas I've read about how to sort of "heave to" on main - it's not like the classic with the backwinded jib. It's more of a slightly luffing windward experience. Basically, somewhere above beam reach, and, not super close to the wind. Rudder set to turn very slightly to windward, and mainsheet a bit soft.
My M17 at least does this quite well, sort of "scalloping" gently to windward (with extra sideways drift of course). She loses way as the slight rudder turns her to windward, but there's not enough speed or rudder to anywhere near come through the wind, so the bow blows off the wind again and luffing reduces and she gains just enough way for the rudder to swing her gently back to slightly luffing...and so on.
This was gusty conditions, without any complications. I have a bungee & jam cleat "tiller holder" and I suspect the flex in the system helps make it smoother - the tiller will give some, but then spring back to its setting, if a gust suddenly blows the bow off faster or scoots her forward faster.
I also wanted to get her out to test having moved the jib sheet cam cleats to a better position than where they were when I got her. I will post some pix separately to show the modification. Suffice to say for now it is WAY better, whether single-handing or with passengers, and I still have no idea why some previous owner put those cam cleats where they did...!
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
MPH because that's what NOAA and Windy show (by default anyhow, I'm sure I can set it to KT in Windy.com). On 10/16/2017 02:20 PM, George Iemmolo wrote:
John
Is that Knots or Mi./Hr.? ​
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 2:54 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Wish I were better at estimating...or had a wind meter.
From the windy.com forecast and NOAA forecast extrapolations for that day, and prior experience with lesser wind on the same lake, and times out with friends elsewhere who did have wind meters...I would guess the peak gusts were hitting ~25+, and wind varying between 15-20 in between. They're the kind of lake gusts where the very first burst might be even more than the duration of the gust, then it backs off for the duration of the gust, then back to the "prevailing" wind for a while.
cheers, John S.
On 10/14/2017 04:58 PM, Dan Farrell wrote:
Any idea what the wind speeds might have been?
Dan Farrell M17 #301
John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
You're welcome...the lake and the County park & marina are a great
resource - when there's water enough to fill it, at least (this is the first year it got full in last six years; last year it maxed at 70%, this year we still have about 74%; the shallow end of docks goes aground at about 70%).
Speaking of Howard Prairie lake, yesterday was the windiest I've ever sailed there. I headed out with the usual 80% jib and first (relatively small) "flattening" reef in main, 'cause it looked like "the usual" winds.
But it was more, especially some of the gusts were more intense, and it picked up a bit even. I ended up putting the next reef in the main - the first "full" reef that really takes a bite out of sail area (I've got three reef points - a relatively small one that someone here said was probably a "flattening" reef, and then two more bigger ones).
First time I've done that since I got the boat. Definitely made it more manageable. And surprising how fast she still moved along, with the 80% jib still on.
cheers, John S.
On 10/08/2017 04:35 AM, Burton Lowry wrote:
Hi John S,
Your mention of Howard Prarie brings back many memories for me, thank you.
Back in the mid 60's, we would go fishing there in our wooden drift boat and often come away with all getting nearly full limits of 10 each. Those, into the smoker.
Back then, sailboats were a mystery to me but I got involved with the Sea Scouts, Ship 3, in Medford and learned to sail. (Graduated from Medford High '72). Now we live in Maine on the coast and have had a number of boats--now, for sail just a little Montgomery 12. By the way, with the wind, tide, and currents here the waves are steep--more like a lake than the Pacific.
Thanks for the reminder of those days.
Blessings,
Burt L.
On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 1:09 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Hi all,
Just to report that I put Pajarita back in the water at Howard Prairie lake up in the hills Thursday for a brief while...we're having a last blast of mild early fall weather.
First couple days, there were very light winds early afternoon and I actually got to use the 150 (Genoa) first time in quite a while.
Yesterday I started with that and then after ghosting for maybe 20 minutes, in 15 minutes as lake winds do around here, it reversed and kicked up to overpowered... So I "hove to" on main, and did a headsail change mid-lake.
I have experimented before with some ideas I've read about how to sort of "heave to" on main - it's not like the classic with the backwinded jib. It's more of a slightly luffing windward experience. Basically, somewhere above beam reach, and, not super close to the wind. Rudder set to turn very slightly to windward, and mainsheet a bit soft.
My M17 at least does this quite well, sort of "scalloping" gently to windward (with extra sideways drift of course). She loses way as the slight rudder turns her to windward, but there's not enough speed or rudder to anywhere near come through the wind, so the bow blows off the wind again and luffing reduces and she gains just enough way for the rudder to swing her gently back to slightly luffing...and so on.
This was gusty conditions, without any complications. I have a bungee & jam cleat "tiller holder" and I suspect the flex in the system helps make it smoother - the tiller will give some, but then spring back to its setting, if a gust suddenly blows the bow off faster or scoots her forward faster.
I also wanted to get her out to test having moved the jib sheet cam cleats to a better position than where they were when I got her. I will post some pix separately to show the modification. Suffice to say for now it is WAY better, whether single-handing or with passengers, and I still have no idea why some previous owner put those cam cleats where they did...!
cheers, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I use wind app "Windfinder" it is set at MPH​. My weather app "BUG" is also in MPH George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails" On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 4:42 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
MPH because that's what NOAA and Windy show (by default anyhow, I'm sure I can set it to KT in Windy.com).
On 10/16/2017 02:20 PM, George Iemmolo wrote:
John
Is that Knots or Mi./Hr.? ​
George "We Can Not Control the Wind But We Can Adjust Our Sails"
On Mon, Oct 16, 2017 at 2:54 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Wish I were better at estimating...or had a wind meter.
From the windy.com forecast and NOAA forecast extrapolations for that day, and prior experience with lesser wind on the same lake, and times out with friends elsewhere who did have wind meters...I would guess the peak gusts were hitting ~25+, and wind varying between 15-20 in between. They're the kind of lake gusts where the very first burst might be even more than the duration of the gust, then it backs off for the duration of the gust, then back to the "prevailing" wind for a while.
cheers, John S.
On 10/14/2017 04:58 PM, Dan Farrell wrote:
Any idea what the wind speeds might have been?
Dan Farrell M17 #301
John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
You're welcome...the lake and the County park & marina are a great
resource - when there's water enough to fill it, at least (this is the first year it got full in last six years; last year it maxed at 70%, this year we still have about 74%; the shallow end of docks goes aground at about 70%).
Speaking of Howard Prairie lake, yesterday was the windiest I've ever sailed there. I headed out with the usual 80% jib and first (relatively small) "flattening" reef in main, 'cause it looked like "the usual" winds.
But it was more, especially some of the gusts were more intense, and it picked up a bit even. I ended up putting the next reef in the main - the first "full" reef that really takes a bite out of sail area (I've got three reef points - a relatively small one that someone here said was probably a "flattening" reef, and then two more bigger ones).
First time I've done that since I got the boat. Definitely made it more manageable. And surprising how fast she still moved along, with the 80% jib still on.
cheers, John S.
On 10/08/2017 04:35 AM, Burton Lowry wrote:
Hi John S,
Your mention of Howard Prarie brings back many memories for me, thank you.
Back in the mid 60's, we would go fishing there in our wooden drift boat and often come away with all getting nearly full limits of 10 each. Those, into the smoker.
Back then, sailboats were a mystery to me but I got involved with the Sea Scouts, Ship 3, in Medford and learned to sail. (Graduated from Medford High '72). Now we live in Maine on the coast and have had a number of boats--now, for sail just a little Montgomery 12. By the way, with the wind, tide, and currents here the waves are steep--more like a lake than the Pacific.
Thanks for the reminder of those days.
Blessings,
Burt L.
On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 1:09 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Hi all,
> > Just to report that I put Pajarita back in the water at Howard > Prairie > lake up in the hills Thursday for a brief while...we're having a last > blast > of mild early fall weather. > > First couple days, there were very light winds early afternoon and I > actually got to use the 150 (Genoa) first time in quite a while. > > Yesterday I started with that and then after ghosting for maybe 20 > minutes, in 15 minutes as lake winds do around here, it reversed and > kicked > up to overpowered... > So I "hove to" on main, and did a headsail change mid-lake. > > I have experimented before with some ideas I've read about how to > sort > of > "heave to" on main - it's not like the classic with the backwinded > jib. > It's more of a slightly luffing windward experience. > Basically, somewhere above beam reach, and, not super close to the > wind. > Rudder set to turn very slightly to windward, and mainsheet a bit > soft. > > My M17 at least does this quite well, sort of "scalloping" gently to > windward (with extra sideways drift of course). She loses way as the > slight > rudder turns her to windward, but there's not enough speed or rudder > to > anywhere near come through the wind, so the bow blows off the wind > again > and luffing reduces and she gains just enough way for the rudder to > swing > her gently back to slightly luffing...and so on. > > This was gusty conditions, without any complications. I have a > bungee & > jam cleat "tiller holder" and I suspect the flex in the system helps > make > it smoother - the tiller will give some, but then spring back to its > setting, if a gust suddenly blows the bow off faster or scoots her > forward > faster. > > I also wanted to get her out to test having moved the jib sheet cam > cleats > to a better position than where they were when I got her. > I will post some pix separately to show the modification. > Suffice to say for now it is WAY better, whether single-handing or > with > passengers, and I still have no idea why some previous owner put > those > cam > cleats where they did...! > > cheers, > John S. > > -- > John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design > -------------------------------------------- > - Eco-Living - > Whole Systems Design Services > People - Place - Learning - Integration > john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 > http://eco-living.net > http://sociocracyconsulting.com > > > > --
John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
--
John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
participants (3)
-
Dan Farrell -
George Iemmolo -
John Schinnerer