Jim: can't you get a local rigger to do it right? Or send them to a rigger by mail? West Marine Rigging, or any rigging shop, can make you a new set. :: Dave Scobie :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: SV SWALLOW - https://sv-swallow.com :: Montgomery 6'8" #650 :: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/ :: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/ :: former M17 owner #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/ <http://www.m17-375.webs.com/> :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:32 AM Jim Sadler <jimsadler@jascopacific.com> wrote:

Yes (3) per connection with SS thimbles

-----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, May 6, 2022 10:00 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 standing rigging

You mean hardware store wire rope clamps like this?

https://www.acehardware.com/departments/hardware/chain-and-rope/rope-and-cha...

Or something else?

cheers, John

On 5/6/22 08:10, Jim Sadler wrote:

...

Any of u skippers us cable clamps for standing rigging? Bad idea?

Thanks Capt Jim SV Pelican M 15

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

You can ask the folks at Rigging Only how they test their swages, or how they test/maintain their swaging machines etc. to keep them in tolerance. There are long-established standards for all of that...seems an extremely low risk situation. Millions of swages done over many decades, most for bigger boats and greater forces than ours. We hear about the very rare failures, not about the millions that never had any problems. I did know a guy in the Hilo sailing club who used only galvanized steel for all his rigging - no stainless. He was paranoid about stainless because, in certain rare cases, some types of stainless fittings can fail suddenly and unexpectedly, and apparently in those same rare cases, galvanized will not have the same type of failure. But at some point, this just comes from being bad at math - not understanding statistics. Sure that can happen in those rare cases, and, your actual odds of that happening are sooooo tiny. More likely to be crushed by a falling piano, etc. Plus some of it is due to lack of adequate inspection and maintenance - a.k.a. pilot error. cheers John On 5/6/22 12:17, Jim Sadler wrote:

That’s the problem

How do you know if it was done right until you have lost your mast.

On my M15 the top of the shroud has a mickeymouse crimped fitting with a thimble and a thru bolt in the mast. It has served me well for the 40 yr I have owned the Pelican. It seem like a similar rigging would work just as well at the bottom of the shroud only with "hardware store" cable clamps.

As I am rounding the west end of Catalina I would at least not be wondering about the workman ship and experience of the technician at West Marine.

Does anyone ever load test these? They do this with crane rigging as a requirement.

Thanx Dave for your incite on this and everything else you have helped me with

I am on a mission to rig the Pelican to sail in the "real ocean" and be able to respond to those who ask "Does this cute little boat really go into the ocean?"

Capt Jim SV. Pelican

-----Original Message----- From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, May 6, 2022 11:04 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 standing rigging

Jim:

can't you get a local rigger to do it right? Or send them to a rigger by mail? West Marine Rigging, or any rigging shop, can make you a new set.

:: Dave Scobie :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: SV SWALLOW - https://sv-swallow.com :: Montgomery 6'8" #650 :: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/ :: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/ :: former M17 owner #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/ <http://www.m17-375.webs.com/> :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred

On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:32 AM Jim Sadler <jimsadler@jascopacific.com> wrote:

...

Yes (3) per connection with SS thimbles

-----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, May 6, 2022 10:00 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 standing rigging

You mean hardware store wire rope clamps like this?

https://www.acehardware.com/departments/hardware/chain-and-rope/rope-a nd-chain-accessories/5007037

Or something else?

cheers, John

On 5/6/22 08:10, Jim Sadler wrote:

...

Any of u skippers us cable clamps for standing rigging? Bad idea?

Thanks Capt Jim SV Pelican M 15

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

Thanks Skipper …..good advice! Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> ________________________________ From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, May 6, 2022 1:15:46 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 standing rigging Jim: Jerry and his crew built near 450 M15s that have the Nicopress eyes and the thru bolt at the hounds. I can't remember when I've read/heard one of these failing (I've read/seen the M15 shroud chainplates at the hull joint failing - one of the bolts because of crevice corrosion). The lower machine swag fitting I've also done - using the same tool, meaning the tool Jerry actually used, to attach the fitting to the wire. I've built many M15 standing rigs myself. The work is easy and nothing complicated for an competent shop. The West Marine Rigging locations have trained staff. Same goes for smaller rigging shops. The M15 rig is simple and strong. Folks have bent their masts after hitting trees and the shrouds survive with no obvious damage (though I would recommend replacing as they have obviously been stressed). :: Dave Scobie :: M6'8" #650 :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: SV SWALLOW - sv-swallow.com :: former owner M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com :: former owner M15 #288 SCRED - m15namedscred.wordpress.com <<-- new site! On Fri, May 6, 2022, 12:18 PM Jim Sadler <jimsadler@jascopacific.com> wrote:

That’s the problem

How do you know if it was done right until you have lost your mast.

On my M15 the top of the shroud has a mickeymouse crimped fitting with a thimble and a thru bolt in the mast. It has served me well for the 40 yr I have owned the Pelican. It seem like a similar rigging would work just as well at the bottom of the shroud only with "hardware store" cable clamps.

As I am rounding the west end of Catalina I would at least not be wondering about the workman ship and experience of the technician at West Marine.

Does anyone ever load test these? They do this with crane rigging as a requirement.

Thanx Dave for your incite on this and everything else you have helped me with

I am on a mission to rig the Pelican to sail in the "real ocean" and be able to respond to those who ask "Does this cute little boat really go into the ocean?"

Capt Jim SV. Pelican

-----Original Message----- From: Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, May 6, 2022 11:04 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 standing rigging

Jim:

can't you get a local rigger to do it right? Or send them to a rigger by mail? West Marine Rigging, or any rigging shop, can make you a new set.

:: Dave Scobie :: Baba 30 #233 DEJA VU :: SV SWALLOW - https://sv-swallow.com :: Montgomery 6'8" #650 :: Truck camper - https://truckpopupcamper.wordpress.com/ :: Ramblings - https://scoobsramblings.wordpress.com/ :: former M17 owner #375 SWEET PEA - https://m17-375.com/ < http://www.m17-375.webs.com/> :: former M15 owner #288 - http://www.freewebs.com/m15-name-scred

On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 10:32 AM Jim Sadler <jimsadler@jascopacific.com> wrote:

...

Yes (3) per connection with SS thimbles

-----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, May 6, 2022 10:00 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 standing rigging

You mean hardware store wire rope clamps like this?

https://www.acehardware.com/departments/hardware/chain-and-rope/rope-a nd-chain-accessories/5007037

Or something else?

cheers, John

On 5/6/22 08:10, Jim Sadler wrote:

...

Any of u skippers us cable clamps for standing rigging? Bad idea?

Thanks Capt Jim SV Pelican M 15

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com

I sure wouldn't do it with those... In practical terms, because it will be a snag-and-snarl magnet for any line that comes near it. All those bolt ends and threads and wire rope ends to catch on. Also when raising & lowering mast, they will catch & snag on the stays and anything else they possibly can. Also potential damage to sails hitting or rubbing on them. I'm saying this from my experience with nicopress and thimble stays & shrouds that came on my M17. And those are crimped, less bulky and clunky than wire clamps. All replaced with swaged marine hardware some years ago and works much better all around. I am a DIY-er for a heck of a lot of stuff, but for primary standing rigging, I gladly make an exception. I got new stays & shrouds from Rigging Only: https://www.riggingandhardware.com/default.aspx Their prices were as good or better than any others, and their service was great. They really know their stuff - I got answers to all my questions along the way, usually on the spot on the phone with someone in the shop (with a regional accent to go with the advice :-) You just need your finished lengths and what goes on each end. You can order by phone, they can help you determine what hardware to put on the ends if you don't know already. I didn't need to send any pictures but I'm sure you could do that as well. They will give you a price quote ahead of time of course once they know what you need. If you want to fab your own using the mechanical wire terminations someone mentioned previously, they sell those also: https://www.riggingandhardware.com/c-647-mechanical-wire-terminations.aspx cheers, John On 5/6/22 10:32, Jim Sadler wrote:

Yes (3) per connection with SS thimbles

-----Original Message----- From: John Schinnerer via montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, May 6, 2022 10:00 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Cc: John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> Subject: M_Boats: Re: M15 standing rigging

You mean hardware store wire rope clamps like this? https://www.acehardware.com/departments/hardware/chain-and-rope/rope-and-cha...

Or something else?

cheers, John

On 5/6/22 08:10, Jim Sadler wrote:

...

Any of u skippers us cable clamps for standing rigging? Bad idea?

Thanks Capt Jim SV Pelican M 15

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com