Thanks Jazz, Now the pressure is on :-)! I will be sure to post some pictures as soon as I can... On Jun 6, 2016 8:43 PM, "Jazzy" <jazzydaze@gmail.com> wrote: You all make valid points. I arrived at the 22lb bruce type anchor by advice from a salty old dude that has been anchoring out permanently for years and has watched many boats drag by him or into him..lol. He seemed very experienced and knowledgeable. He rowed over from his Westlake and asked about El Nino, then we got into this topic, so he was aware of what boat we were talking about. It's possible that I'd be anchored out there all summer and be gone from the boat for extensive periods, so I think overkill is the word here. He passed me his phone number to verify my work or help, so I'm happy about that! I'm still chasing down the last remnants of mooring leads but it doesn't look good, so mooring is plan B. Basically this anchor setup is a pseudo mooring ball, but I can't actually place a mooring ball. I'm def looking forward to those pics! I wonder if the 5 gallon bucket presents a sleeping obstacle? I want my anchor to be instantly deployable, so bowsprit type deal seems ideal if it's workable. Jazz
Btw Keith, I have the same anchor now (8lb danforth) and it's been working fine. I did a test anchor in probably 5kts of current under the narrows bridge and it held. I was in about 15 feet of water with 10ft of chain and 75ft ish of line. I was actually steering the boat back and forth at hull speed...lol. But I wouldn't want to leave it there a week! Jazz On Jun 6, 2016 8:49 PM, "Keith R. Martin" <keith.richard.martin@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Jazz,
Now the pressure is on :-)! I will be sure to post some pictures as soon as I can... On Jun 6, 2016 8:43 PM, "Jazzy" <jazzydaze@gmail.com> wrote:
You all make valid points. I arrived at the 22lb bruce type anchor by advice from a salty old dude that has been anchoring out permanently for years and has watched many boats drag by him or into him..lol. He seemed very experienced and knowledgeable. He rowed over from his Westlake and asked about El Nino, then we got into this topic, so he was aware of what boat we were talking about. It's possible that I'd be anchored out there all summer and be gone from the boat for extensive periods, so I think overkill is the word here. He passed me his phone number to verify my work or help, so I'm happy about that!
I'm still chasing down the last remnants of mooring leads but it doesn't look good, so mooring is plan B. Basically this anchor setup is a pseudo mooring ball, but I can't actually place a mooring ball.
I'm def looking forward to those pics! I wonder if the 5 gallon bucket presents a sleeping obstacle? I want my anchor to be instantly deployable, so bowsprit type deal seems ideal if it's workable.
Jazz
I've been reading up on anchoring stuff lately too...working on deciding what to get for my 2nd anchor (Pajarita came with a Danforth, 8 lb. I think, and a nylon rode with no chain, will be addressing that first). Point being, I am gathering that wind & waves are a bigger factor than current (unless you are trying to anchor in Skookumchuck narrows or something like that). Most of the articles & anchor ratings talk about what storm force one wants which anchor for; or what storm force a given maker's ratings are based on. This emphasis on wind/waves as what to plan for is reinforced by multihull recommendations (typically more windage) being a size or two larger than monohull, even though boat weight is often less to a lot less for the same LOA because no need for ballast. cheers, John S. On 06/06/2016 10:14 PM, Jazzy wrote:
Btw Keith, I have the same anchor now (8lb danforth) and it's been working fine. I did a test anchor in probably 5kts of current under the narrows bridge and it held. I was in about 15 feet of water with 10ft of chain and 75ft ish of line. I was actually steering the boat back and forth at hull speed...lol. But I wouldn't want to leave it there a week!
Jazz On Jun 6, 2016 8:49 PM, "Keith R. Martin" <keith.richard.martin@gmail.com> wrote:
Thanks Jazz,
Now the pressure is on :-)! I will be sure to post some pictures as soon as I can... On Jun 6, 2016 8:43 PM, "Jazzy" <jazzydaze@gmail.com> wrote:
You all make valid points. I arrived at the 22lb bruce type anchor by advice from a salty old dude that has been anchoring out permanently for years and has watched many boats drag by him or into him..lol. He seemed very experienced and knowledgeable. He rowed over from his Westlake and asked about El Nino, then we got into this topic, so he was aware of what boat we were talking about. It's possible that I'd be anchored out there all summer and be gone from the boat for extensive periods, so I think overkill is the word here. He passed me his phone number to verify my work or help, so I'm happy about that!
I'm still chasing down the last remnants of mooring leads but it doesn't look good, so mooring is plan B. Basically this anchor setup is a pseudo mooring ball, but I can't actually place a mooring ball.
I'm def looking forward to those pics! I wonder if the 5 gallon bucket presents a sleeping obstacle? I want my anchor to be instantly deployable, so bowsprit type deal seems ideal if it's workable.
Jazz
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I also think Connie hit the nail on the head (as he often does) when he points to different environments needing different anchor set ups... Certainly the wind and waves are a big part but also the type of sea or lakebed bottom.. My danforth works really well in a sandy or mud bottom, but a lot less so in rocky conditions. It doesn't set as reliably and it certainly doesn't reset very well on it's own in a rocky bottom.. On Jun 6, 2016 10:26 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
I've been reading up on anchoring stuff lately too...working on deciding what to get for my 2nd anchor (Pajarita came with a Danforth, 8 lb. I think, and a nylon rode with no chain, will be addressing that first).
Point being, I am gathering that wind & waves are a bigger factor than current (unless you are trying to anchor in Skookumchuck narrows or something like that). Most of the articles & anchor ratings talk about what storm force one wants which anchor for; or what storm force a given maker's ratings are based on.
This emphasis on wind/waves as what to plan for is reinforced by multihull recommendations (typically more windage) being a size or two larger than monohull, even though boat weight is often less to a lot less for the same LOA because no need for ballast.
cheers, John S.
On 06/06/2016 10:14 PM, Jazzy wrote:
Btw Keith, I have the same anchor now (8lb danforth) and it's been working fine. I did a test anchor in probably 5kts of current under the narrows bridge and it held. I was in about 15 feet of water with 10ft of chain and 75ft ish of line. I was actually steering the boat back and forth at hull speed...lol. But I wouldn't want to leave it there a week!
Jazz On Jun 6, 2016 8:49 PM, "Keith R. Martin" <keith.richard.martin@gmail.com
wrote:
Thanks Jazz,
Now the pressure is on :-)! I will be sure to post some pictures as soon as I can... On Jun 6, 2016 8:43 PM, "Jazzy" <jazzydaze@gmail.com> wrote:
You all make valid points. I arrived at the 22lb bruce type anchor by advice from a salty old dude that has been anchoring out permanently for years and has watched many boats drag by him or into him..lol. He seemed very experienced and knowledgeable. He rowed over from his Westlake and asked about El Nino, then we got into this topic, so he was aware of what boat we were talking about. It's possible that I'd be anchored out there all summer and be gone from the boat for extensive periods, so I think overkill is the word here. He passed me his phone number to verify my work or help, so I'm happy about that!
I'm still chasing down the last remnants of mooring leads but it doesn't look good, so mooring is plan B. Basically this anchor setup is a pseudo mooring ball, but I can't actually place a mooring ball.
I'm def looking forward to those pics! I wonder if the 5 gallon bucket presents a sleeping obstacle? I want my anchor to be instantly deployable, so bowsprit type deal seems ideal if it's workable.
Jazz
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Absolutely...I was just addressing sizing considerations and not bottom types vs. anchor types. What does work well in rocky/reefy bottoms? And can be retrieved from same? Ideally I suppose one wants to avoid anchoring in those kinds of places but sometimes it's unavoidable... Curious why you chose the Rocna. I've been looking at those among others. Spendy...but worth it? Or just pricey 'cause they're patented? cheers, John S. On 06/06/2016 10:38 PM, Keith R. Martin wrote:
I also think Connie hit the nail on the head (as he often does) when he points to different environments needing different anchor set ups...
Certainly the wind and waves are a big part but also the type of sea or lakebed bottom.. My danforth works really well in a sandy or mud bottom, but a lot less so in rocky conditions. It doesn't set as reliably and it certainly doesn't reset very well on it's own in a rocky bottom.. On Jun 6, 2016 10:26 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
I've been reading up on anchoring stuff lately too...working on deciding what to get for my 2nd anchor (Pajarita came with a Danforth, 8 lb. I think, and a nylon rode with no chain, will be addressing that first).
Point being, I am gathering that wind & waves are a bigger factor than current (unless you are trying to anchor in Skookumchuck narrows or something like that). Most of the articles & anchor ratings talk about what storm force one wants which anchor for; or what storm force a given maker's ratings are based on.
This emphasis on wind/waves as what to plan for is reinforced by multihull recommendations (typically more windage) being a size or two larger than monohull, even though boat weight is often less to a lot less for the same LOA because no need for ballast.
cheers, John S.
On 06/06/2016 10:14 PM, Jazzy wrote:
Btw Keith, I have the same anchor now (8lb danforth) and it's been working fine. I did a test anchor in probably 5kts of current under the narrows bridge and it held. I was in about 15 feet of water with 10ft of chain and 75ft ish of line. I was actually steering the boat back and forth at hull speed...lol. But I wouldn't want to leave it there a week!
Jazz On Jun 6, 2016 8:49 PM, "Keith R. Martin" <keith.richard.martin@gmail.com
wrote:
Thanks Jazz,
Now the pressure is on :-)! I will be sure to post some pictures as soon as I can... On Jun 6, 2016 8:43 PM, "Jazzy" <jazzydaze@gmail.com> wrote:
You all make valid points. I arrived at the 22lb bruce type anchor by advice from a salty old dude that has been anchoring out permanently for years and has watched many boats drag by him or into him..lol. He seemed very experienced and knowledgeable. He rowed over from his Westlake and asked about El Nino, then we got into this topic, so he was aware of what boat we were talking about. It's possible that I'd be anchored out there all summer and be gone from the boat for extensive periods, so I think overkill is the word here. He passed me his phone number to verify my work or help, so I'm happy about that!
I'm still chasing down the last remnants of mooring leads but it doesn't look good, so mooring is plan B. Basically this anchor setup is a pseudo mooring ball, but I can't actually place a mooring ball.
I'm def looking forward to those pics! I wonder if the 5 gallon bucket presents a sleeping obstacle? I want my anchor to be instantly deployable, so bowsprit type deal seems ideal if it's workable.
Jazz
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Most of the anchors I have used are either danforth's on smaller boats or Bruce's or some similar knock off on larger vessels (large for me is 27 to 36 ft) In the case of danforth's in more exposed & rocky anchorages up here they just don't seem to reset well.. The Bruce's are popular up here but my limited experience with them is you seem to need to select them in biggie size to get the job done, invariably it just seems like a lot of anchor to manhandle. A number of guys at my Marina have had really good experience switching to these new scoop type anchors (Rocna, Manson etc) that have performed well for them in a wide range of environments, including rocky anchorages.. So when a Rocna 6 (13.2lbs) came up for sale on Craigslist for $175 Cdn, I snapped it up... Based on the Rocna sizing guide this should be more than plenty even for a heavier exploration rigged M17 like mine.. So I guess time will tell.. I am dying to get out and try it.. Keith On Jun 6, 2016 10:43 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Absolutely...I was just addressing sizing considerations and not bottom types vs. anchor types.
What does work well in rocky/reefy bottoms? And can be retrieved from same? Ideally I suppose one wants to avoid anchoring in those kinds of places but sometimes it's unavoidable...
Curious why you chose the Rocna. I've been looking at those among others. Spendy...but worth it? Or just pricey 'cause they're patented?
cheers, John S.
On 06/06/2016 10:38 PM, Keith R. Martin wrote:
I also think Connie hit the nail on the head (as he often does) when he points to different environments needing different anchor set ups...
Certainly the wind and waves are a big part but also the type of sea or lakebed bottom.. My danforth works really well in a sandy or mud bottom, but a lot less so in rocky conditions. It doesn't set as reliably and it certainly doesn't reset very well on it's own in a rocky bottom.. On Jun 6, 2016 10:26 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
I've been reading up on anchoring stuff lately too...working on deciding
what to get for my 2nd anchor (Pajarita came with a Danforth, 8 lb. I think, and a nylon rode with no chain, will be addressing that first).
Point being, I am gathering that wind & waves are a bigger factor than current (unless you are trying to anchor in Skookumchuck narrows or something like that). Most of the articles & anchor ratings talk about what storm force one wants which anchor for; or what storm force a given maker's ratings are based on.
This emphasis on wind/waves as what to plan for is reinforced by multihull recommendations (typically more windage) being a size or two larger than monohull, even though boat weight is often less to a lot less for the same LOA because no need for ballast.
cheers, John S.
On 06/06/2016 10:14 PM, Jazzy wrote:
Btw Keith, I have the same anchor now (8lb danforth) and it's been
working fine. I did a test anchor in probably 5kts of current under the narrows bridge and it held. I was in about 15 feet of water with 10ft of chain and 75ft ish of line. I was actually steering the boat back and forth at hull speed...lol. But I wouldn't want to leave it there a week!
Jazz On Jun 6, 2016 8:49 PM, "Keith R. Martin" < keith.richard.martin@gmail.com
wrote:
Thanks Jazz,
Now the pressure is on :-)! I will be sure to post some pictures as soon as I can... On Jun 6, 2016 8:43 PM, "Jazzy" <jazzydaze@gmail.com> wrote:
You all make valid points. I arrived at the 22lb bruce type anchor by advice from a salty old dude that has been anchoring out permanently for years and has watched many boats drag by him or into him..lol. He seemed very experienced and knowledgeable. He rowed over from his Westlake and asked about El Nino, then we got into this topic, so he was aware of what boat we were talking about. It's possible that I'd be anchored out there all summer and be gone from the boat for extensive periods, so I think overkill is the word here. He passed me his phone number to verify my work or help, so I'm happy about that!
I'm still chasing down the last remnants of mooring leads but it doesn't look good, so mooring is plan B. Basically this anchor setup is a pseudo mooring ball, but I can't actually place a mooring ball.
I'm def looking forward to those pics! I wonder if the 5 gallon bucket presents a sleeping obstacle? I want my anchor to be instantly deployable, so bowsprit type deal seems ideal if it's workable.
Jazz
--
John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Thanks Keith for the further info. Good to hear you are choosing options based on others' positive real world experiences. It can be hard to cut through all the self-promotion by designers/makers of these devices! I have been looking at the Rocna info among others and yeah, the Rocna 4 is probably adequate for an M17, and the 6 looks like solid secure overkill as a primary anchor. Keep us posted on how it works for you. The types of anchorages where I would most need something are up your way (San Juans, & Canadian islands north of there). cheers, John S. On 06/06/2016 11:15 PM, Keith R. Martin wrote:
Most of the anchors I have used are either danforth's on smaller boats or Bruce's or some similar knock off on larger vessels (large for me is 27 to 36 ft)
In the case of danforth's in more exposed & rocky anchorages up here they just don't seem to reset well..
The Bruce's are popular up here but my limited experience with them is you seem to need to select them in biggie size to get the job done, invariably it just seems like a lot of anchor to manhandle.
A number of guys at my Marina have had really good experience switching to these new scoop type anchors (Rocna, Manson etc) that have performed well for them in a wide range of environments, including rocky anchorages..
So when a Rocna 6 (13.2lbs) came up for sale on Craigslist for $175 Cdn, I snapped it up... Based on the Rocna sizing guide this should be more than plenty even for a heavier exploration rigged M17 like mine..
So I guess time will tell.. I am dying to get out and try it..
Keith On Jun 6, 2016 10:43 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Absolutely...I was just addressing sizing considerations and not bottom types vs. anchor types.
What does work well in rocky/reefy bottoms? And can be retrieved from same? Ideally I suppose one wants to avoid anchoring in those kinds of places but sometimes it's unavoidable...
Curious why you chose the Rocna. I've been looking at those among others. Spendy...but worth it? Or just pricey 'cause they're patented?
cheers, John S.
On 06/06/2016 10:38 PM, Keith R. Martin wrote:
I also think Connie hit the nail on the head (as he often does) when he points to different environments needing different anchor set ups...
Certainly the wind and waves are a big part but also the type of sea or lakebed bottom.. My danforth works really well in a sandy or mud bottom, but a lot less so in rocky conditions. It doesn't set as reliably and it certainly doesn't reset very well on it's own in a rocky bottom.. On Jun 6, 2016 10:26 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
I've been reading up on anchoring stuff lately too...working on deciding
what to get for my 2nd anchor (Pajarita came with a Danforth, 8 lb. I think, and a nylon rode with no chain, will be addressing that first).
Point being, I am gathering that wind & waves are a bigger factor than current (unless you are trying to anchor in Skookumchuck narrows or something like that). Most of the articles & anchor ratings talk about what storm force one wants which anchor for; or what storm force a given maker's ratings are based on.
This emphasis on wind/waves as what to plan for is reinforced by multihull recommendations (typically more windage) being a size or two larger than monohull, even though boat weight is often less to a lot less for the same LOA because no need for ballast.
cheers, John S.
On 06/06/2016 10:14 PM, Jazzy wrote:
Btw Keith, I have the same anchor now (8lb danforth) and it's been
working fine. I did a test anchor in probably 5kts of current under the narrows bridge and it held. I was in about 15 feet of water with 10ft of chain and 75ft ish of line. I was actually steering the boat back and forth at hull speed...lol. But I wouldn't want to leave it there a week!
Jazz On Jun 6, 2016 8:49 PM, "Keith R. Martin" < keith.richard.martin@gmail.com
wrote:
Thanks Jazz,
Now the pressure is on :-)! I will be sure to post some pictures as soon as I can... On Jun 6, 2016 8:43 PM, "Jazzy" <jazzydaze@gmail.com> wrote:
You all make valid points. I arrived at the 22lb bruce type anchor by advice from a salty old dude that has been anchoring out permanently for years and has watched many boats drag by him or into him..lol. He seemed very experienced and knowledgeable. He rowed over from his Westlake and asked about El Nino, then we got into this topic, so he was aware of what boat we were talking about. It's possible that I'd be anchored out there all summer and be gone from the boat for extensive periods, so I think overkill is the word here. He passed me his phone number to verify my work or help, so I'm happy about that!
I'm still chasing down the last remnants of mooring leads but it doesn't look good, so mooring is plan B. Basically this anchor setup is a pseudo mooring ball, but I can't actually place a mooring ball.
I'm def looking forward to those pics! I wonder if the 5 gallon bucket presents a sleeping obstacle? I want my anchor to be instantly deployable, so bowsprit type deal seems ideal if it's workable.
Jazz
--
John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
John, I've been using a Manson Supreme in the San Juan and Gulf Islands for several years now with very good results. The Manson is very similar to the Rocna. Larry Y M17 CornDog On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 10:59 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks Keith for the further info. Good to hear you are choosing options based on others' positive real world experiences. It can be hard to cut through all the self-promotion by designers/makers of these devices!
I have been looking at the Rocna info among others and yeah, the Rocna 4 is probably adequate for an M17, and the 6 looks like solid secure overkill as a primary anchor.
Keep us posted on how it works for you. The types of anchorages where I would most need something are up your way (San Juans, & Canadian islands north of there).
cheers, John S.
On 06/06/2016 11:15 PM, Keith R. Martin wrote:
Most of the anchors I have used are either danforth's on smaller boats or Bruce's or some similar knock off on larger vessels (large for me is 27 to 36 ft)
In the case of danforth's in more exposed & rocky anchorages up here they just don't seem to reset well..
The Bruce's are popular up here but my limited experience with them is you seem to need to select them in biggie size to get the job done, invariably it just seems like a lot of anchor to manhandle.
A number of guys at my Marina have had really good experience switching to these new scoop type anchors (Rocna, Manson etc) that have performed well for them in a wide range of environments, including rocky anchorages..
So when a Rocna 6 (13.2lbs) came up for sale on Craigslist for $175 Cdn, I snapped it up... Based on the Rocna sizing guide this should be more than plenty even for a heavier exploration rigged M17 like mine..
So I guess time will tell.. I am dying to get out and try it..
Keith On Jun 6, 2016 10:43 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Absolutely...I was just addressing sizing considerations and not bottom
types vs. anchor types.
What does work well in rocky/reefy bottoms? And can be retrieved from same? Ideally I suppose one wants to avoid anchoring in those kinds of places but sometimes it's unavoidable...
Curious why you chose the Rocna. I've been looking at those among others. Spendy...but worth it? Or just pricey 'cause they're patented?
cheers, John S.
On 06/06/2016 10:38 PM, Keith R. Martin wrote:
I also think Connie hit the nail on the head (as he often does) when he
points to different environments needing different anchor set ups...
Certainly the wind and waves are a big part but also the type of sea or lakebed bottom.. My danforth works really well in a sandy or mud bottom, but a lot less so in rocky conditions. It doesn't set as reliably and it certainly doesn't reset very well on it's own in a rocky bottom.. On Jun 6, 2016 10:26 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
I've been reading up on anchoring stuff lately too...working on deciding
what to get for my 2nd anchor (Pajarita came with a Danforth, 8 lb. I think, and a nylon rode with no chain, will be addressing that first).
Point being, I am gathering that wind & waves are a bigger factor than current (unless you are trying to anchor in Skookumchuck narrows or something like that). Most of the articles & anchor ratings talk about what storm force one wants which anchor for; or what storm force a given maker's ratings are based on.
This emphasis on wind/waves as what to plan for is reinforced by multihull recommendations (typically more windage) being a size or two larger than monohull, even though boat weight is often less to a lot less for the same LOA because no need for ballast.
cheers, John S.
On 06/06/2016 10:14 PM, Jazzy wrote:
Btw Keith, I have the same anchor now (8lb danforth) and it's been
working fine. I did a test anchor in probably 5kts of current under the narrows bridge and it held. I was in about 15 feet of water with 10ft of chain and 75ft ish of line. I was actually steering the boat back and forth at hull speed...lol. But I wouldn't want to leave it there a week!
Jazz On Jun 6, 2016 8:49 PM, "Keith R. Martin" < keith.richard.martin@gmail.com
> wrote: >
Thanks Jazz,
> Now the pressure is on :-)! I will be sure to post some pictures as > soon > as > I can... > On Jun 6, 2016 8:43 PM, "Jazzy" <jazzydaze@gmail.com> wrote: > > You all make valid points. I arrived at the 22lb bruce type anchor > by > advice from a salty old dude that has been anchoring out permanently > for > years and has watched many boats drag by him or into him..lol. He > seemed > very experienced and knowledgeable. He rowed over from his Westlake > and > asked about El Nino, then we got into this topic, so he was aware of > what > boat we were talking about. It's possible that I'd be anchored out > there > all summer and be gone from the boat for extensive periods, so I > think > overkill is the word here. He passed me his phone number to verify > my > work > or help, so I'm happy about that! > > I'm still chasing down the last remnants of mooring leads but it > doesn't > look good, so mooring is plan B. Basically this anchor setup is a > pseudo > mooring ball, but I can't actually place a mooring ball. > > I'm def looking forward to those pics! I wonder if the 5 gallon > bucket > presents a sleeping obstacle? I want my anchor to be instantly > deployable, > so bowsprit type deal seems ideal if it's workable. > > Jazz > > > -- > John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Thanks Larry - the 10 lb. model I assume? That's what brackets an M17 in their sizing chart. Though their chart goes on boat length only; Rocna tables go by both boat length and displacement, which seems a bit more logical to me. And of course each maker claims everyone else is over-rating and they're not... :-p cheers, John S. On 06/09/2016 01:26 PM, Larry Yake wrote:
John,
I've been using a Manson Supreme in the San Juan and Gulf Islands for several years now with very good results. The Manson is very similar to the Rocna.
Larry Y M17 CornDog
On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 10:59 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks Keith for the further info. Good to hear you are choosing options based on others' positive real world experiences. It can be hard to cut through all the self-promotion by designers/makers of these devices!
I have been looking at the Rocna info among others and yeah, the Rocna 4 is probably adequate for an M17, and the 6 looks like solid secure overkill as a primary anchor.
Keep us posted on how it works for you. The types of anchorages where I would most need something are up your way (San Juans, & Canadian islands north of there).
cheers, John S.
On 06/06/2016 11:15 PM, Keith R. Martin wrote:
Most of the anchors I have used are either danforth's on smaller boats or Bruce's or some similar knock off on larger vessels (large for me is 27 to 36 ft)
In the case of danforth's in more exposed & rocky anchorages up here they just don't seem to reset well..
The Bruce's are popular up here but my limited experience with them is you seem to need to select them in biggie size to get the job done, invariably it just seems like a lot of anchor to manhandle.
A number of guys at my Marina have had really good experience switching to these new scoop type anchors (Rocna, Manson etc) that have performed well for them in a wide range of environments, including rocky anchorages..
So when a Rocna 6 (13.2lbs) came up for sale on Craigslist for $175 Cdn, I snapped it up... Based on the Rocna sizing guide this should be more than plenty even for a heavier exploration rigged M17 like mine..
So I guess time will tell.. I am dying to get out and try it..
Keith On Jun 6, 2016 10:43 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Absolutely...I was just addressing sizing considerations and not bottom
types vs. anchor types.
What does work well in rocky/reefy bottoms? And can be retrieved from same? Ideally I suppose one wants to avoid anchoring in those kinds of places but sometimes it's unavoidable...
Curious why you chose the Rocna. I've been looking at those among others. Spendy...but worth it? Or just pricey 'cause they're patented?
cheers, John S.
On 06/06/2016 10:38 PM, Keith R. Martin wrote:
I also think Connie hit the nail on the head (as he often does) when he
points to different environments needing different anchor set ups...
Certainly the wind and waves are a big part but also the type of sea or lakebed bottom.. My danforth works really well in a sandy or mud bottom, but a lot less so in rocky conditions. It doesn't set as reliably and it certainly doesn't reset very well on it's own in a rocky bottom.. On Jun 6, 2016 10:26 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
I've been reading up on anchoring stuff lately too...working on deciding
what to get for my 2nd anchor (Pajarita came with a Danforth, 8 lb. I think, and a nylon rode with no chain, will be addressing that first).
Point being, I am gathering that wind & waves are a bigger factor than current (unless you are trying to anchor in Skookumchuck narrows or something like that). Most of the articles & anchor ratings talk about what storm force one wants which anchor for; or what storm force a given maker's ratings are based on.
This emphasis on wind/waves as what to plan for is reinforced by multihull recommendations (typically more windage) being a size or two larger than monohull, even though boat weight is often less to a lot less for the same LOA because no need for ballast.
cheers, John S.
On 06/06/2016 10:14 PM, Jazzy wrote:
Btw Keith, I have the same anchor now (8lb danforth) and it's been
> working > fine. I did a test anchor in probably 5kts of current under the > narrows > bridge and it held. I was in about 15 feet of water with 10ft of > chain > and > 75ft ish of line. I was actually steering the boat back and forth at > hull > speed...lol. But I wouldn't want to leave it there a week! > > Jazz > On Jun 6, 2016 8:49 PM, "Keith R. Martin" < > keith.richard.martin@gmail.com > > >> wrote: >> > > Thanks Jazz, > > >> Now the pressure is on :-)! I will be sure to post some pictures as >> soon >> as >> I can... >> On Jun 6, 2016 8:43 PM, "Jazzy" <jazzydaze@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> You all make valid points. I arrived at the 22lb bruce type anchor >> by >> advice from a salty old dude that has been anchoring out permanently >> for >> years and has watched many boats drag by him or into him..lol. He >> seemed >> very experienced and knowledgeable. He rowed over from his Westlake >> and >> asked about El Nino, then we got into this topic, so he was aware of >> what >> boat we were talking about. It's possible that I'd be anchored out >> there >> all summer and be gone from the boat for extensive periods, so I >> think >> overkill is the word here. He passed me his phone number to verify >> my >> work >> or help, so I'm happy about that! >> >> I'm still chasing down the last remnants of mooring leads but it >> doesn't >> look good, so mooring is plan B. Basically this anchor setup is a >> pseudo >> mooring ball, but I can't actually place a mooring ball. >> >> I'm def looking forward to those pics! I wonder if the 5 gallon >> bucket >> presents a sleeping obstacle? I want my anchor to be instantly >> deployable, >> so bowsprit type deal seems ideal if it's workable. >> >> Jazz >> >> >> -- >> > John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Read a test conducted by some national boat equipment magazine. They used a BIG tow boat and tested several types and brands of anchors. It was VERY well done which is why I chose a Rocna. If you want to go cheaper and have almost as good an anchor, the Manson looks pretty good too. Same design. On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 4:19 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks Larry - the 10 lb. model I assume? That's what brackets an M17 in their sizing chart. Though their chart goes on boat length only; Rocna tables go by both boat length and displacement, which seems a bit more logical to me.
And of course each maker claims everyone else is over-rating and they're not... :-p
cheers, John S.
On 06/09/2016 01:26 PM, Larry Yake wrote:
John,
I've been using a Manson Supreme in the San Juan and Gulf Islands for several years now with very good results. The Manson is very similar to the Rocna.
Larry Y M17 CornDog
On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 10:59 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks Keith for the further info.
Good to hear you are choosing options based on others' positive real world experiences. It can be hard to cut through all the self-promotion by designers/makers of these devices!
I have been looking at the Rocna info among others and yeah, the Rocna 4 is probably adequate for an M17, and the 6 looks like solid secure overkill as a primary anchor.
Keep us posted on how it works for you. The types of anchorages where I would most need something are up your way (San Juans, & Canadian islands north of there).
cheers, John S.
On 06/06/2016 11:15 PM, Keith R. Martin wrote:
Most of the anchors I have used are either danforth's on smaller boats or
Bruce's or some similar knock off on larger vessels (large for me is 27 to 36 ft)
In the case of danforth's in more exposed & rocky anchorages up here they just don't seem to reset well..
The Bruce's are popular up here but my limited experience with them is you seem to need to select them in biggie size to get the job done, invariably it just seems like a lot of anchor to manhandle.
A number of guys at my Marina have had really good experience switching to these new scoop type anchors (Rocna, Manson etc) that have performed well for them in a wide range of environments, including rocky anchorages..
So when a Rocna 6 (13.2lbs) came up for sale on Craigslist for $175 Cdn, I snapped it up... Based on the Rocna sizing guide this should be more than plenty even for a heavier exploration rigged M17 like mine..
So I guess time will tell.. I am dying to get out and try it..
Keith On Jun 6, 2016 10:43 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Absolutely...I was just addressing sizing considerations and not bottom
types vs. anchor types.
What does work well in rocky/reefy bottoms? And can be retrieved from same? Ideally I suppose one wants to avoid anchoring in those kinds of places but sometimes it's unavoidable...
Curious why you chose the Rocna. I've been looking at those among others. Spendy...but worth it? Or just pricey 'cause they're patented?
cheers, John S.
On 06/06/2016 10:38 PM, Keith R. Martin wrote:
I also think Connie hit the nail on the head (as he often does) when he
points to different environments needing different anchor set ups...
Certainly the wind and waves are a big part but also the type of sea or lakebed bottom.. My danforth works really well in a sandy or mud bottom, but a lot less so in rocky conditions. It doesn't set as reliably and it certainly doesn't reset very well on it's own in a rocky bottom.. On Jun 6, 2016 10:26 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
I've been reading up on anchoring stuff lately too...working on deciding
what to get for my 2nd anchor (Pajarita came with a Danforth, 8 lb. I > think, and a nylon rode with no chain, will be addressing that > first). > > Point being, I am gathering that wind & waves are a bigger factor > than > current (unless you are trying to anchor in Skookumchuck narrows or > something like that). Most of the articles & anchor ratings talk > about > what > storm force one wants which anchor for; or what storm force a given > maker's > ratings are based on. > > This emphasis on wind/waves as what to plan for is reinforced by > multihull > recommendations (typically more windage) being a size or two larger > than > monohull, even though boat weight is often less to a lot less for the > same > LOA because no need for ballast. > > cheers, > John S. > > On 06/06/2016 10:14 PM, Jazzy wrote: > > Btw Keith, I have the same anchor now (8lb danforth) and it's been > > working >> fine. I did a test anchor in probably 5kts of current under the >> narrows >> bridge and it held. I was in about 15 feet of water with 10ft of >> chain >> and >> 75ft ish of line. I was actually steering the boat back and forth >> at >> hull >> speed...lol. But I wouldn't want to leave it there a week! >> >> Jazz >> On Jun 6, 2016 8:49 PM, "Keith R. Martin" < >> keith.richard.martin@gmail.com >> >> >> wrote: >>> >>> >> Thanks Jazz, >> >> >> Now the pressure is on :-)! I will be sure to post some pictures as >>> soon >>> as >>> I can... >>> On Jun 6, 2016 8:43 PM, "Jazzy" <jazzydaze@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> You all make valid points. I arrived at the 22lb bruce type anchor >>> by >>> advice from a salty old dude that has been anchoring out >>> permanently >>> for >>> years and has watched many boats drag by him or into him..lol. He >>> seemed >>> very experienced and knowledgeable. He rowed over from his >>> Westlake >>> and >>> asked about El Nino, then we got into this topic, so he was aware >>> of >>> what >>> boat we were talking about. It's possible that I'd be anchored out >>> there >>> all summer and be gone from the boat for extensive periods, so I >>> think >>> overkill is the word here. He passed me his phone number to verify >>> my >>> work >>> or help, so I'm happy about that! >>> >>> I'm still chasing down the last remnants of mooring leads but it >>> doesn't >>> look good, so mooring is plan B. Basically this anchor setup is a >>> pseudo >>> mooring ball, but I can't actually place a mooring ball. >>> >>> I'm def looking forward to those pics! I wonder if the 5 gallon >>> bucket >>> presents a sleeping obstacle? I want my anchor to be instantly >>> deployable, >>> so bowsprit type deal seems ideal if it's workable. >>> >>> Jazz >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design >> > -------------------------------------------- > - Eco-Living - > Whole Systems Design Services > People - Place - Learning - Integration > john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 > http://eco-living.net > http://sociocracyconsulting.com > > > > -- > John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Does anyone know if the Manson Supreme 5lb anchor fits in the cockpit locker on an M15? For the M15, the 4.4lb Bruce/claw when used properly appears to be adequate for high wind/waves, or at least mine has never dragged on me, and fits in a cockpit locker along with the rode. The cost of anchors seems to have more to do with patent licensing than materials or manufacturing. According to systematic tests I've seen, for the same weight anchor the Delta has roughly twice the holding power (and about 4x the cost) of the Bruce/Claw, and the Rocna/Manson Supreme has roughly 6x the holding power at about 7x the price. If it fits in the locker, I'll upgrade to the Manson Supreme 5lb anchor, as I feel a 9lb anchor wouldn't be necessary given the holding power to weight ratio of these modern anchor designs. Tyler
Yes, John, I have the 10# Manson Supreme. On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 2:26 PM, <casioqv@usermail.com> wrote:
Does anyone know if the Manson Supreme 5lb anchor fits in the cockpit locker on an M15?
For the M15, the 4.4lb Bruce/claw when used properly appears to be adequate for high wind/waves, or at least mine has never dragged on me, and fits in a cockpit locker along with the rode.
The cost of anchors seems to have more to do with patent licensing than materials or manufacturing. According to systematic tests I've seen, for the same weight anchor the Delta has roughly twice the holding power (and about 4x the cost) of the Bruce/Claw, and the Rocna/Manson Supreme has roughly 6x the holding power at about 7x the price.
If it fits in the locker, I'll upgrade to the Manson Supreme 5lb anchor, as I feel a 9lb anchor wouldn't be necessary given the holding power to weight ratio of these modern anchor designs.
Tyler
Larry et al.: Anchored with my Manson 10# in a bay just west of Mowry Park on Lake Cd’A a week ago Saturday. We anchored there 2 years ago and it was calm. This time a strong north with (guessing 30 knots +)came up in the night and blew for 2-3 hours. The Manson reset and held just fine in the mud bottom. I had set it about 120 degrees to the direction the night wind came from. I only had out 4:1 scope at the most and 5 ft of chain. GARY ~~~~_/) ~~~~ Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
On Jun 9, 2016, at 3:04 PM, Larry Yake <larryyake@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, John, I have the 10# Manson Supreme.
On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 2:26 PM, <casioqv@usermail.com> wrote:
Does anyone know if the Manson Supreme 5lb anchor fits in the cockpit locker on an M15?
For the M15, the 4.4lb Bruce/claw when used properly appears to be adequate for high wind/waves, or at least mine has never dragged on me, and fits in a cockpit locker along with the rode.
The cost of anchors seems to have more to do with patent licensing than materials or manufacturing. According to systematic tests I've seen, for the same weight anchor the Delta has roughly twice the holding power (and about 4x the cost) of the Bruce/Claw, and the Rocna/Manson Supreme has roughly 6x the holding power at about 7x the price.
If it fits in the locker, I'll upgrade to the Manson Supreme 5lb anchor, as I feel a 9lb anchor wouldn't be necessary given the holding power to weight ratio of these modern anchor designs.
Tyler
I bought a Rocna 13# and it fits in the cockpit locker of my 17. The locker has to be at least 14 inches deep though. <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=oa-2322-a> Virus-free. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=oa-2322-a> <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 4:26 PM, <casioqv@usermail.com> wrote:
Does anyone know if the Manson Supreme 5lb anchor fits in the cockpit locker on an M15?
For the M15, the 4.4lb Bruce/claw when used properly appears to be adequate for high wind/waves, or at least mine has never dragged on me, and fits in a cockpit locker along with the rode.
The cost of anchors seems to have more to do with patent licensing than materials or manufacturing. According to systematic tests I've seen, for the same weight anchor the Delta has roughly twice the holding power (and about 4x the cost) of the Bruce/Claw, and the Rocna/Manson Supreme has roughly 6x the holding power at about 7x the price.
If it fits in the locker, I'll upgrade to the Manson Supreme 5lb anchor, as I feel a 9lb anchor wouldn't be necessary given the holding power to weight ratio of these modern anchor designs.
Tyler
Hi guys, I have not had enough time lately for my M-23 or posting but wanted to relate that if one is looking to steam wood (as I need to do for the ash replacement slats in my starboard side cabin interior) do not use a large PVC pipe. My PVC steam box looked like a bit like a sagging noodle by the end of the first session. Guess that is why I always see them made of wood... Happy sailing! Robbin M-23 Pinch Me
Just bought a Rocna. Bought the 13 pound one and it is a LOT of anchor. The nine would probably suffice. I just don't like my sleep being disrupted by that grinding sound my keel makes on shell reefs. <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=oa-2322-a> Virus-free. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=oa-2322-a> <#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 12:59 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Thanks Keith for the further info. Good to hear you are choosing options based on others' positive real world experiences. It can be hard to cut through all the self-promotion by designers/makers of these devices!
I have been looking at the Rocna info among others and yeah, the Rocna 4 is probably adequate for an M17, and the 6 looks like solid secure overkill as a primary anchor.
Keep us posted on how it works for you. The types of anchorages where I would most need something are up your way (San Juans, & Canadian islands north of there).
cheers, John S.
On 06/06/2016 11:15 PM, Keith R. Martin wrote:
Most of the anchors I have used are either danforth's on smaller boats or Bruce's or some similar knock off on larger vessels (large for me is 27 to 36 ft)
In the case of danforth's in more exposed & rocky anchorages up here they just don't seem to reset well..
The Bruce's are popular up here but my limited experience with them is you seem to need to select them in biggie size to get the job done, invariably it just seems like a lot of anchor to manhandle.
A number of guys at my Marina have had really good experience switching to these new scoop type anchors (Rocna, Manson etc) that have performed well for them in a wide range of environments, including rocky anchorages..
So when a Rocna 6 (13.2lbs) came up for sale on Craigslist for $175 Cdn, I snapped it up... Based on the Rocna sizing guide this should be more than plenty even for a heavier exploration rigged M17 like mine..
So I guess time will tell.. I am dying to get out and try it..
Keith On Jun 6, 2016 10:43 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Absolutely...I was just addressing sizing considerations and not bottom
types vs. anchor types.
What does work well in rocky/reefy bottoms? And can be retrieved from same? Ideally I suppose one wants to avoid anchoring in those kinds of places but sometimes it's unavoidable...
Curious why you chose the Rocna. I've been looking at those among others. Spendy...but worth it? Or just pricey 'cause they're patented?
cheers, John S.
On 06/06/2016 10:38 PM, Keith R. Martin wrote:
I also think Connie hit the nail on the head (as he often does) when he
points to different environments needing different anchor set ups...
Certainly the wind and waves are a big part but also the type of sea or lakebed bottom.. My danforth works really well in a sandy or mud bottom, but a lot less so in rocky conditions. It doesn't set as reliably and it certainly doesn't reset very well on it's own in a rocky bottom.. On Jun 6, 2016 10:26 PM, "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
I've been reading up on anchoring stuff lately too...working on deciding
what to get for my 2nd anchor (Pajarita came with a Danforth, 8 lb. I think, and a nylon rode with no chain, will be addressing that first).
Point being, I am gathering that wind & waves are a bigger factor than current (unless you are trying to anchor in Skookumchuck narrows or something like that). Most of the articles & anchor ratings talk about what storm force one wants which anchor for; or what storm force a given maker's ratings are based on.
This emphasis on wind/waves as what to plan for is reinforced by multihull recommendations (typically more windage) being a size or two larger than monohull, even though boat weight is often less to a lot less for the same LOA because no need for ballast.
cheers, John S.
On 06/06/2016 10:14 PM, Jazzy wrote:
Btw Keith, I have the same anchor now (8lb danforth) and it's been
working fine. I did a test anchor in probably 5kts of current under the narrows bridge and it held. I was in about 15 feet of water with 10ft of chain and 75ft ish of line. I was actually steering the boat back and forth at hull speed...lol. But I wouldn't want to leave it there a week!
Jazz On Jun 6, 2016 8:49 PM, "Keith R. Martin" < keith.richard.martin@gmail.com
> wrote: >
Thanks Jazz,
> Now the pressure is on :-)! I will be sure to post some pictures as > soon > as > I can... > On Jun 6, 2016 8:43 PM, "Jazzy" <jazzydaze@gmail.com> wrote: > > You all make valid points. I arrived at the 22lb bruce type anchor > by > advice from a salty old dude that has been anchoring out permanently > for > years and has watched many boats drag by him or into him..lol. He > seemed > very experienced and knowledgeable. He rowed over from his Westlake > and > asked about El Nino, then we got into this topic, so he was aware of > what > boat we were talking about. It's possible that I'd be anchored out > there > all summer and be gone from the boat for extensive periods, so I > think > overkill is the word here. He passed me his phone number to verify > my > work > or help, so I'm happy about that! > > I'm still chasing down the last remnants of mooring leads but it > doesn't > look good, so mooring is plan B. Basically this anchor setup is a > pseudo > mooring ball, but I can't actually place a mooring ball. > > I'm def looking forward to those pics! I wonder if the 5 gallon > bucket > presents a sleeping obstacle? I want my anchor to be instantly > deployable, > so bowsprit type deal seems ideal if it's workable. > > Jazz > > > -- > John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
participants (8)
-
casioqv＠usermail.com -
GARY M HYDE -
Jazzy -
John Schinnerer -
Keith R. Martin -
Larry Yake -
Robbin Roddewig -
Thomas Buzzi