Dear Monty sailors, here is a difficult question. I own a 1982 M-17, and love it. It's never been kept in the water, and so the bottom is the original gelcoat, unpainted. I generally sail it one afternoon at a time, on the relatively small lakes here in Madison, WI, although every once in a while I would trailer it to a bigger lake. This past summer (I got the boat at beginning of July) the boat was kept on its trailer, and each time I sailed I had to do the whole rigging/derigging game. I am now probably as good at it as I will ever get, and it takes about 50 minutes to put it up, and the same amount to take it down. Unfortunately I am also quite busy, with two kids and a full time job. Because of this, there were quite a few times I didn't go out because there was not enough time to put it up, take it down, and also sail a fair amount. A friend of mine who has a house on the lake was kind enough to offer me to start using his mooring, for free, for the foreseeable future. This would obviously solve the above problem, but I need to start thinking about bottom paint. Hoopers in Minnesota, where the boat is now for some small repair, offered me the following options: a) Just bottom paint, about $500. b) Interlux 2000E barrier coat (5 coats) + bottom paint $1750 On top of this expense I am looking at another $3-400 for a small dinghy and outboard to get to the boat. The main question I have is: is it worth it? Should I keep trailer sailing the boat (at a cost of about $250/summer for parking), get just the bottom paint and risk gelcoat blistering, or get the full deal. Any opinions? My gut feeling is that if possible I would like to try to keep this boat for a long time, I really like the way it handles. It's just that $2000 is exactly half of what I paid for it!! (Unfortunately there is no place in Madison to keep a boat rigged near the water, and I don't have the time nor the place to put the boat up on a lift to do the bottom painting myself.) Any advice will be highly appreciated. Thanks, Andrei.
Hi Andrei, Do you store the outboard on the transom? My thoughts go along the line of getting the rigging time down to a manageable 20-25 minutes. Possibly combined with some 5-10 day stays (colder water = longer) in the water, when you feel you'll be able to sail more frequently, followed by a good wash down to get all the tiny whiskers off and a couple of days out of the water. I have been told to use bleach in the wash water for the portion of the hull that's been submerged - and do not wax - I followed that advice and kept the hull clean even in the SF Bay for 3-4 days at a time. How about the rest of you; Have you ever timed (real time) your rigging times? I believe the part that I improved most on was the stowage of shrouds. If you coil and then suspend with a bungee, and do it exactly the same every time, you'll shave quite allot off your times. That and the use of really, really long bungees so you can wrap the mast more efficiently. My M17 had a 6 hp Johnson which weighed close to 70 pounds (memory?) When I transported on the streets of SF, I pretty much had to remove it. After I found a place where I could store mast down and move from storage to the water, I left it on and that really sped up the process. If I had wanted to keep the M17, I would have purchased a Honda 5hp, much lighter. I did have the advantage of being able to walk the mast up, with only the aid of the jib halyard, and, maybe that's where a lot of time is lost for some. I have a terrible memory for the unimportant. I have to put things in a procedural order so that I can perform tasks in rote, as opposed to what is logically next. As a result, I go from step to step and allow no distractions to break my focus which enables getting around a boat pretty quickly. But that's just me. Some may call that using a checklist. However after I do the steps a few times, it becomes a habit and I do not have to read my script or try to remember what's next, it's automatic, and quick. Works for me and may not work for others in the same way. Bill On 10/16/08, Andrei Caldararu <andreic@math.wisc.edu> wrote:
Dear Monty sailors,
here is a difficult question. I own a 1982 M-17, and love it. It's never been kept in the water, and so the bottom is the original gelcoat, unpainted. I generally sail it one afternoon at a time, on the relatively small lakes here in Madison, WI, although every once in a while I would trailer it to a bigger lake.
This past summer (I got the boat at beginning of July) the boat was kept on its trailer, and each time I sailed I had to do the whole rigging/derigging game. I am now probably as good at it as I will ever get, and it takes about 50 minutes to put it up, and the same amount to take it down. Unfortunately I am also quite busy, with two kids and a full time job. Because of this, there were quite a few times I didn't go out because there was not enough time to put it up, take it down, and also sail a fair amount.
A friend of mine who has a house on the lake was kind enough to offer me to start using his mooring, for free, for the foreseeable future. This would obviously solve the above problem, but I need to start thinking about bottom paint. Hoopers in Minnesota, where the boat is now for some small repair, offered me the following options:
a) Just bottom paint, about $500. b) Interlux 2000E barrier coat (5 coats) + bottom paint $1750
On top of this expense I am looking at another $3-400 for a small dinghy and outboard to get to the boat. The main question I have is: is it worth it? Should I keep trailer sailing the boat (at a cost of about $250/summer for parking), get just the bottom paint and risk gelcoat blistering, or get the full deal. Any opinions? My gut feeling is that if possible I would like to try to keep this boat for a long time, I really like the way it handles. It's just that $2000 is exactly half of what I paid for it!!
(Unfortunately there is no place in Madison to keep a boat rigged near the water, and I don't have the time nor the place to put the boat up on a lift to do the bottom painting myself.)
Any advice will be highly appreciated.
Thanks,
Andrei.
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Andrei: For a freshwater lake in Wisconsin, skip the bottom paint completely. She will only be in the water at most 6 months out of the year. You are not fighting salt water beasties, just fresh water slime. At most, it will just slow you down a bit. Power wash her in the fall when you pull her out for the season. Being in the water won't harm the gelcoat. It''s made to get wet. Being in the water and ready to go is a much more enjoyable way to do it than setting up and knocking down all the time. Get a dinghy and a set of oars and you are set! Howard (7 hours south of you in Missouri) On Oct 16, 2008, at 3:52 PM, Andrei Caldararu wrote:
Dear Monty sailors,
here is a difficult question. I own a 1982 M-17, and love it. It's never been kept in the water, and so the bottom is the original gelcoat, unpainted. I generally sail it one afternoon at a time, on the relatively small lakes here in Madison, WI, although every once in a while I would trailer it to a bigger lake.
This past summer (I got the boat at beginning of July) the boat was kept on its trailer, and each time I sailed I had to do the whole rigging/derigging game. I am now probably as good at it as I will ever get, and it takes about 50 minutes to put it up, and the same amount to take it down. Unfortunately I am also quite busy, with two kids and a full time job. Because of this, there were quite a few times I didn't go out because there was not enough time to put it up, take it down, and also sail a fair amount.
A friend of mine who has a house on the lake was kind enough to offer me to start using his mooring, for free, for the foreseeable future. This would obviously solve the above problem, but I need to start thinking about bottom paint. Hoopers in Minnesota, where the boat is now for some small repair, offered me the following options:
a) Just bottom paint, about $500. b) Interlux 2000E barrier coat (5 coats) + bottom paint $1750
On top of this expense I am looking at another $3-400 for a small dinghy and outboard to get to the boat. The main question I have is: is it worth it? Should I keep trailer sailing the boat (at a cost of about $250/summer for parking), get just the bottom paint and risk gelcoat blistering, or get the full deal. Any opinions? My gut feeling is that if possible I would like to try to keep this boat for a long time, I really like the way it handles. It's just that $2000 is exactly half of what I paid for it!!
(Unfortunately there is no place in Madison to keep a boat rigged near the water, and I don't have the time nor the place to put the boat up on a lift to do the bottom painting myself.)
Any advice will be highly appreciated.
Thanks,
Andrei.
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Howard and Bill, The one thing I am most afraid of is not fresh water slime, but gelcoat blisters. Indeed the sailing season here is May-mid October, so 5.5 months. Is the issue with gelcoat blisters mostly from saltwater? Just a dinghy with a set of oars probably won't do: the mooring is about 800 feet away from the ramp where I can get in the water in a public spot, and I don't want to bother my friend by going through his back yard every time I want to go sailing. Or would it? I was thinking perhaps a canoe instead, so I could also enjoy it by itself. Thanks, Andrei.
Hi Andrei, fresh water is much more adept at getting behind unprotected gel coat and creating blisters than salt water. After repairing a bunch on my M-17 I would not leave the boat in the water (or salt) without a barrier coat. We had a power boat in the water every summer in MI and never had bottom paint. Just left a light brown stain. I am not an expert but I would consider at least barrier coat. The Interlux I used (2000e?)was not terribly expensive. Practical Sailor has a great article this month about bottom paint. Might be worth looking at. I also grew weary of rigging and launching my boat and now keep it at a slip so I can use it more. Robbin Andrei Caldararu wrote:
Howard and Bill,
The one thing I am most afraid of is not fresh water slime, but gelcoat blisters. Indeed the sailing season here is May-mid October, so 5.5 months. Is the issue with gelcoat blisters mostly from saltwater?
Just a dinghy with a set of oars probably won't do: the mooring is about 800 feet away from the ramp where I can get in the water in a public spot, and I don't want to bother my friend by going through his back yard every time I want to go sailing. Or would it? I was thinking perhaps a canoe instead, so I could also enjoy it by itself.
Thanks, Andrei.
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Hi Andrei, I keep my M17, Seafrog, in the water 24/7. When it came time to consider bottom painting, I got a mix from various boatyards regarding using a barrier epoxy (Interlux 2000e). Some said yes and some said no. Those that said yes said only a couple of coats, not 5-7, followed by a couple of ablative antifouling coats would be more than adequate. . I hope they were right... I'll find out later in December when I pulll her out for a few months. Joe ----- Original Message ----- From: "robbin roddewig" <robbin.roddewig@verizon.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 9:49 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Help: bottom paint, Interlux 2000 or none?
Hi Andrei, fresh water is much more adept at getting behind unprotected gel coat and creating blisters than salt water. After repairing a bunch on my M-17 I would not leave the boat in the water (or salt) without a barrier coat. We had a power boat in the water every summer in MI and never had bottom paint. Just left a light brown stain. I am not an expert but I would consider at least barrier coat. The Interlux I used (2000e?)was not terribly expensive. Practical Sailor has a great article this month about bottom paint. Might be worth looking at. I also grew weary of rigging and launching my boat and now keep it at a slip so I can use it more.
Robbin
Andrei Caldararu wrote:
Howard and Bill,
The one thing I am most afraid of is not fresh water slime, but gelcoat blisters. Indeed the sailing season here is May-mid October, so 5.5 months. Is the issue with gelcoat blisters mostly from saltwater?
Just a dinghy with a set of oars probably won't do: the mooring is about 800 feet away from the ramp where I can get in the water in a public spot, and I don't want to bother my friend by going through his back yard every time I want to go sailing. Or would it? I was thinking perhaps a canoe instead, so I could also enjoy it by itself.
Thanks, Andrei.
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It seems like the opinions on this topic are as varied as the people who sail M-17's: I got one person who says no way without barrier coat, one who says use barrier coat but less of it, one who says it's OK to go without it, and one who says keep the boat on the trailer :-) Could someone else weigh in on this issue to at least hopefully sway the balance one way or another? Thanks, Andrei.
Maybe blistering is fundamentally different from simple osmosis, which is a phenomenon whereby water tends to dilute a more concentrated solution by flowing across a semi-permeable membrane (as in, blood cells swell and pop when placed in distilled water and collapse in saltwater. This would suggest that immersion in fresh water would be more likely to promote blisters than saltwater. I think some of you out there have encountered just such a problem, although saltwater could of course be less concentrated than some component of gel coat. Interesting technical question. -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Andrei Caldararu Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 5:48 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Help: bottom paint, Interlux 2000 or none? Howard and Bill, The one thing I am most afraid of is not fresh water slime, but gelcoat blisters. Indeed the sailing season here is May-mid October, so 5.5 months. Is the issue with gelcoat blisters mostly from saltwater? Just a dinghy with a set of oars probably won't do: the mooring is about 800 feet away from the ramp where I can get in the water in a public spot, and I don't want to bother my friend by going through his back yard every time I want to go sailing. Or would it? I was thinking perhaps a canoe instead, so I could also enjoy it by itself. Thanks, Andrei. _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Ibelieve Tom is right here; fresh water is more troublesome than salt. In the early 70's those of us who were cdoncerned about quality all swtareted using a catylist jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jenkins" <tjenk@gte.net> To: "'For and about Montgomery Sailboats'" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 6:54 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: Help: bottom paint, Interlux 2000 or none?
Maybe blistering is fundamentally different from simple osmosis, which is a phenomenon whereby water tends to dilute a more concentrated solution by flowing across a semi-permeable membrane (as in, blood cells swell and pop when placed in distilled water and collapse in saltwater. This would suggest that immersion in fresh water would be more likely to promote blisters than saltwater. I think some of you out there have encountered just such a problem, although saltwater could of course be less concentrated than some component of gel coat. Interesting technical question.
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Andrei Caldararu Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 5:48 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: Help: bottom paint, Interlux 2000 or none?
Howard and Bill,
The one thing I am most afraid of is not fresh water slime, but gelcoat blisters. Indeed the sailing season here is May-mid October, so 5.5 months. Is the issue with gelcoat blisters mostly from saltwater?
Just a dinghy with a set of oars probably won't do: the mooring is about 800 feet away from the ramp where I can get in the water in a public spot, and I don't want to bother my friend by going through his back yard every time I want to go sailing. Or would it? I was thinking perhaps a canoe instead, so I could also enjoy it by itself.
Thanks, Andrei.
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participants (7)
-
Andrei Caldararu -
Bill Lamica -
Howard Audsley -
jerry -
Joe Murphy -
robbin roddewig -
Tom Jenkins