Does anyone have links to photos (or information) of their mast raising equipment used to raise the mast by one person using the winches? I have a M17.
Here is a video of a gin pole system used on a Sage 17. Thr same system can be used on the M17 - https://youtu.be/H78r9FpTEPI Much easier and saves lots of time if you can to raise/lower by hand - https://youtu.be/yVtzcyem1Cs :: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com On Fri, Jul 27, 2018, 9:24 PM Gary Froeschner <gfroesch@socket.net> wrote:
Does anyone have links to photos (or information) of their mast raising equipment used to raise the mast by one person using the winches? I have a M17.
On 07/28/2018 06:08 AM, Dave Scobie wrote: ..
Much easier and saves lots of time if you can to raise/lower by hand -
Sage mast must be a bit lighter than M17? This is basically what I do with my M17, except with mainsheet tackle to do the lifting after the very first part of lifting overhead to get enough angle on the raising line that it becomes effective. I used to raise all by hand from the bow, but now with furler I can't do that, have to raise from stern. Main problem from aft is making the transition (stepping up) from cockpit to bench to cabin while also holding/raising the mast. From the bow that's not an issue, already standing high up, the first heave-ho lift gets the mast up so the safety line (to stern and then to main halyard) can easily hold it. One step aft and another much easier push and it's up. cheers, John -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Bow pulpit Gentleman I know this is off the subject but where can I get a bow pulpit for my 1975 m17 , I also plan on getting a rolling furling later down the road , I’ve looked on line but it all confusing to me doesn’t really give me an answer I’m looking for or maybe someone has one for sale. Thanks for ant info Ed Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: John Schinnerer Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2018 12:48 AM To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mast raising On 07/28/2018 06:08 AM, Dave Scobie wrote: ..
Much easier and saves lots of time if you can to raise/lower by hand -
Sage mast must be a bit lighter than M17? This is basically what I do with my M17, except with mainsheet tackle to do the lifting after the very first part of lifting overhead to get enough angle on the raising line that it becomes effective. I used to raise all by hand from the bow, but now with furler I can't do that, have to raise from stern. Main problem from aft is making the transition (stepping up) from cockpit to bench to cabin while also holding/raising the mast. From the bow that's not an issue, already standing high up, the first heave-ho lift gets the mast up so the safety line (to stern and then to main halyard) can easily hold it. One step aft and another much easier push and it's up. cheers, John -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Just change the subject line, then you're not off topic... :-) Someone recently posted re an M15 bow pulpit and there was a source given, maybe by Dave Scobie, check last few months...probably if the source does M15 they do M17 also. I did a lot of research on roller furling last fall, including soliciting opinions on this list. I ended up choosing the CDI (Cruising Designs International) Flexible Furler design (the CDI FF2 is the size you need for an M17). I find it well designed and well made and reasonably easy to install & set up. I like that it has its own halyard built into the foil, rather than using the existing hank-on jib halyard. Less hardware to catch or twist at the head of the furling rig that way. It just spins on the forestay - no need for swivel connection to jib halyard. As a bonus, the CDI is less expensive by 10-15% or more than the other contenders (for USA buyers anyhow, CDI is in Canada & CAN is low vs. USD). Some people don't like the CDI built-in halyard design, and prefer the ones that do use the jib halyard (which is almost the other makers, as I recall). If one uses the jib halyard in mast raising, the CDI is great because the jib halyard is not used for the jib any more. If the furling rig needs the jib halyard then there's more steps and complication to raising/lowering mast. Main thing with the CDI is, you have to take good care to keep the foil flat/straight when stored. It is an extremely durable PVC-based extrusion, breakage is not going to be an issue short of severe abuse. However it will "remember" any bends that it sits with over time, and then you have to try and reverse/undo those or you will have a wiggly jib luff and possibly poor furling. All furling foils have their pros & cons so whatever you get, you will have some need to pay attention to how you handle the foil. When rigged, usually no issue - it's the raising, lowering, storing where the care is needed. cheers, John On 07/29/2018 01:21 PM, edwin jenkins wrote:
Bow pulpit Gentleman I know this is off the subject but where can I get a bow pulpit for my 1975 m17 , I also plan on getting a rolling furling later down the road , I’ve looked on line but it all confusing to me doesn’t really give me an answer I’m looking for or maybe someone has one for sale. Thanks for ant info Ed
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Railmakers in CA or Sage Marine in CO for the pulpit. Schaefer Snapfurl is a surperior unit in both build and you ARE using the halyard to tension the headsail luff (you _cannot_ get correct luff tension with the CDI). It is very easy to load sail onto the Snapfurl (much easier than the CDI). Use jib halyard to hold mast up after raising as I showed in video of me pushing it up (you can see me pulling jib halyard tight after mast goes up). Use halyard to control speed while lowering mast (I didn't video this). M17 mast is heavier than S17 - still not a challenge to get the mast up (I really notice the difference mainly because I have rigged lots of S17s over the past seven years v. M17's). :: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com On Sun, Jul 29, 2018, 2:22 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Just change the subject line, then you're not off topic... :-)
Someone recently posted re an M15 bow pulpit and there was a source given, maybe by Dave Scobie, check last few months...probably if the source does M15 they do M17 also.
I did a lot of research on roller furling last fall, including soliciting opinions on this list.
I ended up choosing the CDI (Cruising Designs International) Flexible Furler design (the CDI FF2 is the size you need for an M17).
I find it well designed and well made and reasonably easy to install & set up. I like that it has its own halyard built into the foil, rather than using the existing hank-on jib halyard. Less hardware to catch or twist at the head of the furling rig that way. It just spins on the forestay - no need for swivel connection to jib halyard.
As a bonus, the CDI is less expensive by 10-15% or more than the other contenders (for USA buyers anyhow, CDI is in Canada & CAN is low vs. USD).
Some people don't like the CDI built-in halyard design, and prefer the ones that do use the jib halyard (which is almost the other makers, as I recall).
If one uses the jib halyard in mast raising, the CDI is great because the jib halyard is not used for the jib any more. If the furling rig needs the jib halyard then there's more steps and complication to raising/lowering mast.
Main thing with the CDI is, you have to take good care to keep the foil flat/straight when stored. It is an extremely durable PVC-based extrusion, breakage is not going to be an issue short of severe abuse. However it will "remember" any bends that it sits with over time, and then you have to try and reverse/undo those or you will have a wiggly jib luff and possibly poor furling.
All furling foils have their pros & cons so whatever you get, you will have some need to pay attention to how you handle the foil. When rigged, usually no issue - it's the raising, lowering, storing where the care is needed.
cheers, John
John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
On 07/29/2018 01:21 PM, edwin jenkins wrote:
Bow pulpit Gentleman I know this is off the subject but where can I get a bow pulpit for my 1975 m17 , I also plan on getting a rolling furling later down the road , I’ve looked on line but it all confusing to me doesn’t really give me an answer I’m looking for or maybe someone has one for sale. Thanks for ant info Ed
On 07/29/2018 03:25 PM, Dave Scobie wrote:
Schaefer Snapfurl is a surperior unit in both build and you ARE using the halyard to tension the headsail luff (you _cannot_ get correct luff tension with the CDI). It is very easy to load sail onto the Snapfurl (much easier than the CDI).
Well there ya go...different opinions and experiences to complicate your decision-making... :-) I can get fine luff tension with the CDI...bearing in mind I am not racing, so I am not needing or wanting to tweak the luff tension frequently. If you race, or just want to mess with jib luff tension frequently, then the CDI will probably not suit you. If you race seriously, you probably don't want a furling rig on your forestay anyhow. And, if messing with jib luff tension frequently, it sure helps to have jib halyard run to cockpit, whether with hank-on sails or non-CDI furler. cheers, John -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Dave, I'm using hank-on sails currently on the flush deck M17 and my twin-head stay Nor'Sea 27 but I'm considering this Schaefer system on the 17 as an alternative for ease when I'm just daysailing. What size headsail would you chose for the furling sail? Tim Jarvi Petoskey MI On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 6:25 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Railmakers in CA or Sage Marine in CO for the pulpit.
Schaefer Snapfurl is a surperior unit in both build and you ARE using the halyard to tension the headsail luff (you _cannot_ get correct luff tension with the CDI). It is very easy to load sail onto the Snapfurl (much easier than the CDI).
Use jib halyard to hold mast up after raising as I showed in video of me pushing it up (you can see me pulling jib halyard tight after mast goes up). Use halyard to control speed while lowering mast (I didn't video this).
M17 mast is heavier than S17 - still not a challenge to get the mast up (I really notice the difference mainly because I have rigged lots of S17s over the past seven years v. M17's).
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com
On Sun, Jul 29, 2018, 2:22 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Just change the subject line, then you're not off topic... :-)
Someone recently posted re an M15 bow pulpit and there was a source given, maybe by Dave Scobie, check last few months...probably if the source does M15 they do M17 also.
I did a lot of research on roller furling last fall, including soliciting opinions on this list.
I ended up choosing the CDI (Cruising Designs International) Flexible Furler design (the CDI FF2 is the size you need for an M17).
I find it well designed and well made and reasonably easy to install & set up. I like that it has its own halyard built into the foil, rather than using the existing hank-on jib halyard. Less hardware to catch or twist at the head of the furling rig that way. It just spins on the forestay - no need for swivel connection to jib halyard.
As a bonus, the CDI is less expensive by 10-15% or more than the other contenders (for USA buyers anyhow, CDI is in Canada & CAN is low vs. USD).
Some people don't like the CDI built-in halyard design, and prefer the ones that do use the jib halyard (which is almost the other makers, as I recall).
If one uses the jib halyard in mast raising, the CDI is great because the jib halyard is not used for the jib any more. If the furling rig needs the jib halyard then there's more steps and complication to raising/lowering mast.
Main thing with the CDI is, you have to take good care to keep the foil flat/straight when stored. It is an extremely durable PVC-based extrusion, breakage is not going to be an issue short of severe abuse. However it will "remember" any bends that it sits with over time, and then you have to try and reverse/undo those or you will have a wiggly jib luff and possibly poor furling.
All furling foils have their pros & cons so whatever you get, you will have some need to pay attention to how you handle the foil. When rigged, usually no issue - it's the raising, lowering, storing where the care is needed.
cheers, John
John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
On 07/29/2018 01:21 PM, edwin jenkins wrote:
Bow pulpit Gentleman I know this is off the subject but where can I get a bow pulpit for my 1975 m17 , I also plan on getting a rolling furling later down the road , I’ve looked on line but it all confusing to me doesn’t really give me an answer I’m looking for or maybe someone has one for sale. Thanks for ant info Ed
Tim. The M17's were designed to sail with 150% genoa. Unless you sail in high wind area where you commonly used to the 110% working get the larger sail. Recommend getting a 'foam luff' for improved sail shape when reefing the headsail on a furler. Still ... After 30% reduction in sail size a roller reefed headsail shape goes bad quickly. If you want best performance get multiple headsails so you can choose one for the wind range expected (but at that point I'd just stay with hank-on sails). Harry at E/P sails or JudyB at Hyde Sails Direct are great resources and know the M17's. :: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com On Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 5:42 AM Timothy JarviMD <tjarvi@esnm.us> wrote:
Dave, I'm using hank-on sails currently on the flush deck M17 and my twin-head stay Nor'Sea 27 but I'm considering this Schaefer system on the 17 as an alternative for ease when I'm just daysailing. What size headsail would you chose for the furling sail?
Tim Jarvi Petoskey MI
On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 6:25 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Railmakers in CA or Sage Marine in CO for the pulpit.
Schaefer Snapfurl is a surperior unit in both build and you ARE using the halyard to tension the headsail luff (you _cannot_ get correct luff tension with the CDI). It is very easy to load sail onto the Snapfurl (much easier than the CDI).
Use jib halyard to hold mast up after raising as I showed in video of me pushing it up (you can see me pulling jib halyard tight after mast goes up). Use halyard to control speed while lowering mast (I didn't video this).
M17 mast is heavier than S17 - still not a challenge to get the mast up (I really notice the difference mainly because I have rigged lots of S17s over the past seven years v. M17's).
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com
On Sun, Jul 29, 2018, 2:22 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Just change the subject line, then you're not off topic... :-)
Someone recently posted re an M15 bow pulpit and there was a source given, maybe by Dave Scobie, check last few months...probably if the source does M15 they do M17 also.
I did a lot of research on roller furling last fall, including soliciting opinions on this list.
I ended up choosing the CDI (Cruising Designs International) Flexible Furler design (the CDI FF2 is the size you need for an M17).
I find it well designed and well made and reasonably easy to install & set up. I like that it has its own halyard built into the foil, rather than using the existing hank-on jib halyard. Less hardware to catch or twist at the head of the furling rig that way. It just spins on the forestay - no need for swivel connection to jib halyard.
As a bonus, the CDI is less expensive by 10-15% or more than the other contenders (for USA buyers anyhow, CDI is in Canada & CAN is low vs. USD).
Some people don't like the CDI built-in halyard design, and prefer the ones that do use the jib halyard (which is almost the other makers, as I recall).
If one uses the jib halyard in mast raising, the CDI is great because the jib halyard is not used for the jib any more. If the furling rig needs the jib halyard then there's more steps and complication to raising/lowering mast.
Main thing with the CDI is, you have to take good care to keep the foil flat/straight when stored. It is an extremely durable PVC-based extrusion, breakage is not going to be an issue short of severe abuse. However it will "remember" any bends that it sits with over time, and then you have to try and reverse/undo those or you will have a wiggly jib luff and possibly poor furling.
All furling foils have their pros & cons so whatever you get, you will have some need to pay attention to how you handle the foil. When rigged, usually no issue - it's the raising, lowering, storing where the care is needed.
cheers, John
John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
On 07/29/2018 01:21 PM, edwin jenkins wrote:
Bow pulpit Gentleman I know this is off the subject but where can I get a bow pulpit for my 1975 m17 , I also plan on getting a rolling furling later down the road , I’ve looked on line but it all confusing to me doesn’t really give me an answer I’m looking for or maybe someone has one for sale. Thanks for ant info Ed
Thanks, Dave! Yeah, I'd switch between furler and hank-on depending on what I'm out to do. Harry made the sails for the Nor'Sea and they're great! I had 130 in my mind for some reason so the reminder of 150 is appreciated:) Tim On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 9:58 AM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Tim.
The M17's were designed to sail with 150% genoa. Unless you sail in high wind area where you commonly used to the 110% working get the larger sail.
Recommend getting a 'foam luff' for improved sail shape when reefing the headsail on a furler. Still ... After 30% reduction in sail size a roller reefed headsail shape goes bad quickly.
If you want best performance get multiple headsails so you can choose one for the wind range expected (but at that point I'd just stay with hank-on sails).
Harry at E/P sails or JudyB at Hyde Sails Direct are great resources and know the M17's.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com
On Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 5:42 AM Timothy JarviMD <tjarvi@esnm.us> wrote:
Dave, I'm using hank-on sails currently on the flush deck M17 and my twin-head stay Nor'Sea 27 but I'm considering this Schaefer system on the 17 as an alternative for ease when I'm just daysailing. What size headsail would you chose for the furling sail?
Tim Jarvi Petoskey MI
On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 6:25 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Railmakers in CA or Sage Marine in CO for the pulpit.
Schaefer Snapfurl is a surperior unit in both build and you ARE using the halyard to tension the headsail luff (you _cannot_ get correct luff tension with the CDI). It is very easy to load sail onto the Snapfurl (much easier than the CDI).
Use jib halyard to hold mast up after raising as I showed in video of me pushing it up (you can see me pulling jib halyard tight after mast goes up). Use halyard to control speed while lowering mast (I didn't video this).
M17 mast is heavier than S17 - still not a challenge to get the mast up (I really notice the difference mainly because I have rigged lots of S17s over the past seven years v. M17's).
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com
On Sun, Jul 29, 2018, 2:22 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Just change the subject line, then you're not off topic... :-)
Someone recently posted re an M15 bow pulpit and there was a source given, maybe by Dave Scobie, check last few months...probably if the source does M15 they do M17 also.
I did a lot of research on roller furling last fall, including soliciting opinions on this list.
I ended up choosing the CDI (Cruising Designs International) Flexible Furler design (the CDI FF2 is the size you need for an M17).
I find it well designed and well made and reasonably easy to install & set up. I like that it has its own halyard built into the foil, rather than using the existing hank-on jib halyard. Less hardware to catch or twist at the head of the furling rig that way. It just spins on the forestay - no need for swivel connection to jib halyard.
As a bonus, the CDI is less expensive by 10-15% or more than the other contenders (for USA buyers anyhow, CDI is in Canada & CAN is low vs. USD).
Some people don't like the CDI built-in halyard design, and prefer the ones that do use the jib halyard (which is almost the other makers, as I recall).
If one uses the jib halyard in mast raising, the CDI is great because the jib halyard is not used for the jib any more. If the furling rig needs the jib halyard then there's more steps and complication to raising/lowering mast.
Main thing with the CDI is, you have to take good care to keep the foil flat/straight when stored. It is an extremely durable PVC-based extrusion, breakage is not going to be an issue short of severe abuse. However it will "remember" any bends that it sits with over time, and then you have to try and reverse/undo those or you will have a wiggly jib luff and possibly poor furling.
All furling foils have their pros & cons so whatever you get, you will have some need to pay attention to how you handle the foil. When rigged, usually no issue - it's the raising, lowering, storing where the care is needed.
cheers, John
John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
On 07/29/2018 01:21 PM, edwin jenkins wrote:
Bow pulpit Gentleman I know this is off the subject but where can I get a bow pulpit for my 1975 m17 , I also plan on getting a rolling furling later down the road , I’ve looked on line but it all confusing to me doesn’t really give me an answer I’m looking for or maybe someone has one for sale. Thanks for ant info Ed
Ah ... Once furler on you can't take it off without dropping the rig and then if you damage the extrusion $$ to replace. The Snapfurl exclusion cannot be taken apart once put together ... it will just fit over the 3/16 wire turnbuckle stud but you cannot roll it up so you have a long tube of to contend with. IMO racing still the plan use hank-on sails. If you are just 'wanting some occasional challenge to race but generally daysail/cruise a furler may be a good option. :: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com On Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 8:19 AM Timothy JarviMD <tjarvi@esnm.us> wrote:
Thanks, Dave! Yeah, I'd switch between furler and hank-on depending on what I'm out to do. Harry made the sails for the Nor'Sea and they're great! I had 130 in my mind for some reason so the reminder of 150 is appreciated:)
Tim
On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 9:58 AM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Tim.
The M17's were designed to sail with 150% genoa. Unless you sail in high wind area where you commonly used to the 110% working get the larger sail.
Recommend getting a 'foam luff' for improved sail shape when reefing the headsail on a furler. Still ... After 30% reduction in sail size a roller reefed headsail shape goes bad quickly.
If you want best performance get multiple headsails so you can choose one for the wind range expected (but at that point I'd just stay with hank-on sails).
Harry at E/P sails or JudyB at Hyde Sails Direct are great resources and know the M17's.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com
On Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 5:42 AM Timothy JarviMD <tjarvi@esnm.us> wrote:
Dave, I'm using hank-on sails currently on the flush deck M17 and my twin-head stay Nor'Sea 27 but I'm considering this Schaefer system on the 17 as an alternative for ease when I'm just daysailing. What size headsail would you chose for the furling sail?
Tim Jarvi Petoskey MI
On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 6:25 PM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Railmakers in CA or Sage Marine in CO for the pulpit.
Schaefer Snapfurl is a surperior unit in both build and you ARE using the halyard to tension the headsail luff (you _cannot_ get correct luff tension with the CDI). It is very easy to load sail onto the Snapfurl (much easier than the CDI).
Use jib halyard to hold mast up after raising as I showed in video of me pushing it up (you can see me pulling jib halyard tight after mast goes up). Use halyard to control speed while lowering mast (I didn't video this).
M17 mast is heavier than S17 - still not a challenge to get the mast up (I really notice the difference mainly because I have rigged lots of S17s over the past seven years v. M17's).
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - m17-375.com
On Sun, Jul 29, 2018, 2:22 PM John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Just change the subject line, then you're not off topic... :-)
Someone recently posted re an M15 bow pulpit and there was a source given, maybe by Dave Scobie, check last few months...probably if the source does M15 they do M17 also.
I did a lot of research on roller furling last fall, including soliciting opinions on this list.
I ended up choosing the CDI (Cruising Designs International) Flexible Furler design (the CDI FF2 is the size you need for an M17).
I find it well designed and well made and reasonably easy to install & set up. I like that it has its own halyard built into the foil, rather than using the existing hank-on jib halyard. Less hardware to catch or twist at the head of the furling rig that way. It just spins on the forestay - no need for swivel connection to jib halyard.
As a bonus, the CDI is less expensive by 10-15% or more than the other contenders (for USA buyers anyhow, CDI is in Canada & CAN is low vs. USD).
Some people don't like the CDI built-in halyard design, and prefer the ones that do use the jib halyard (which is almost the other makers, as I recall).
If one uses the jib halyard in mast raising, the CDI is great because the jib halyard is not used for the jib any more. If the furling rig needs the jib halyard then there's more steps and complication to raising/lowering mast.
Main thing with the CDI is, you have to take good care to keep the foil flat/straight when stored. It is an extremely durable PVC-based extrusion, breakage is not going to be an issue short of severe abuse. However it will "remember" any bends that it sits with over time, and then you have to try and reverse/undo those or you will have a wiggly jib luff and possibly poor furling.
All furling foils have their pros & cons so whatever you get, you will have some need to pay attention to how you handle the foil. When rigged, usually no issue - it's the raising, lowering, storing where the care is needed.
cheers, John
John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
On 07/29/2018 01:21 PM, edwin jenkins wrote:
Bow pulpit Gentleman I know this is off the subject but where can I get a bow pulpit for my 1975 m17 , I also plan on getting a rolling furling later down the road , I’ve looked on line but it all confusing to me doesn’t really give me an answer I’m looking for or maybe someone has one for sale. Thanks for ant info Ed
On 07/30/2018 09:20 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
Ah ... Once furler on you can't take it off without dropping the rig and then if you damage the extrusion $$ to replace. The Snapfurl exclusion cannot be taken apart once put together ... it will just fit over the 3/16 wire turnbuckle stud but you cannot roll it up so you have a long tube of to contend with.
That's one of the reasons I chose the CDI - it uses a one-piece flat extrusion rather than a two-piece snap-together round one. You still have to treat it well when stored, on (mast down) or off (removed from stay) the boat, but it is OK if it flexes some temporarily when raising, lowering, installing or un-installing. Also given that it is shipped in a big roll and you flatten it before install, I imagine that it could be stored long term off the boat in same size roll and re-flattened same way. BUT whenever possible store it flat/straight. Also, it can be removed & installed without dropping the mast - in fact it normally is easier to install & remove with mast up - just use jib halyard as temporary forestay.
IMO racing still the plan use hank-on sails.
Agree, no argument there. And have a good foredeck crew to go change them for you, it is tricky changing a headsail while singlehanding (even when not racing... ;-). I really love the clean aesthetic and the performance of hank-on sails. It's mostly what I've sailed with on others' boats and club boats. However I mostly single-hand, or have "passengers" who are not "crew" (if you know what I mean), and I don't race, and if I did it would be totally for fun without concern of being first or last. So to be able to cruise single-handed more safely and in a variety of places and diverse and changeable wind conditions (it's a trailer sailer after all), I am opting to try a reefing furler. The hank-on sails I have are so tired that I may get better performance with the new sail even on a furling setup. Also one new sail plus reefing furler is about 1/3 less money than three new hank-on sails (furler costs about same as small or medium hank-on jib). cheers, John -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Size of roller furling genny should be dictated by local conditions and typical crew. If you usually sail in 10 knots or less or usually have some crew, get a 150. If you usually sail in over 10 knots or usually sail single-handed, get a 135. If you get a 135, I recommend a raised clew. In either case, I second the recommendation of a padded luff. I also second the recommendation of the Schaefer Snap-Furl 500, but the CDI is a reasonable choice too. As others have said, the functional difference is the CDI's integral halyard system, which is both a blessing and a curse. It is a blessing because it eliminates any possibility of halyard wrap and makes installation foolproof. It is a curse because it makes adjusting halyard tension overly cumbersome. Installing the Snap-Furl is a little fussy because careful attention must be paid to the instructions for avoiding halyard wrap. Basically, you MUST use the halyard fairlead and you MUST have the upper swivel raised to within a few inches of the top of the forestay, which may require using a wire pendant at the tack. For me, it was worth it because I wanted the ability to adjust halyard tension on the fly. -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats <montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com> On Behalf Of Timothy JarviMD Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 8:41 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: bow pulpit, roller furling & mast raising Dave, I'm using hank-on sails currently on the flush deck M17 and my twin-head stay Nor'Sea 27 but I'm considering this Schaefer system on the 17 as an alternative for ease when I'm just daysailing. What size headsail would you chose for the furling sail? Tim Jarvi Petoskey MI
I have a few M15 spinnaker downhaul/foreguy rigging questions. Just to be clear, I'm talking about a sheet/line that usually attaches between the center of the pole and the foredeck, to keep the pole from lifting, I am not 100% sure downhaul (or foreguy?) is the right term. 1. Does anyone know the reason why a spinnaker pole downhaul is usually installed in to pull downward on the center of the pole? It makes more sense to me that pulling at the very end, where the spinnaker attaches would drastically reduce the stress on the pole. Last year I did the Delta Dinghy Ditch with a painters pole as the spinnaker pole, and it was nearly snapping in half until I moved the downhaul to the tip, and then it seemed virtually stress free in gusts. 2. Where is a good place to mount the downhaul block? Is it okay to mount it on the deck? I've been actually using a snatch block on the boom vang bail, but that makes gybing really hard. Has anyone tried installing a second boom vang bail and facing it forward? If so, where can you buy one? It seems to me that my M15 uses a boom bail designed for a large sailboat boom, but through the mast step bolt in order to hold the vang. Sincerely, Tyler '81 M15 "Defiant"
-----Original Message----- From: casioqv@usermail.com Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 1:50 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: M15 spinnaker downhaul/foreguy questions I have a few M15 spinnaker downhaul/foreguy rigging questions. Just to be clear, I'm talking about a sheet/line that usually attaches between the center of the pole and the foredeck, to keep the pole from lifting, I am not 100% sure downhaul (or foreguy?) is the right term. YES, IT'S A FOREGUY, AS OPPOSED TO THE AFTERGUY, WHICH IS THE LINE OPPOSITE THE SHEET (BECOMING THE SHEET AFTER GYBING. 1. Does anyone know the reason why a spinnaker pole downhaul is usually installed in to pull downward on the center of the pole? It makes more sense to me that pulling at the very end, where the spinnaker attaches would drastically reduce the stress on the pole. Last year I did the Delta Dinghy Ditch with a painters pole as the spinnaker pole, and it was nearly snapping in half until I moved the downhaul to the tip, and then it seemed virtually stress free in gusts. ON SMALL BOATS IT'S ATTACHED DIRECTLY TO THE CENTER OF THE POLE SO THAT THE GUY WON'T NEED TO BE CHANGED WHEN GYBING. ON A larger boat, where strength is a question, a bridle can be used, or the guy can be attached to the end. If the block for the guy leads to a block well forward of the mast the guy can be attached to a simple bridle consisting of a line going from one end of the pole to the other with a small block hung on it so that the guy will stay forward, but then you'll need to adjust the foreguy every time you adjust the sheet. On a small boat I like the block just in front of the mast, and then a small bridle on the pole that consists of a wire from each end to a ring in the middle, with a few feet of scope, and the guy attaches to the ring. If you're worrying about the pole bending (a real fear in the Ditch race) this the best of both worlds. 2. Where is a good place to mount the downhaul block? Is it okay to mount it on the deck? I've been actually using a snatch block on the boom vang bail, but that makes gybing really hard. Has anyone tried installing a second boom vang bail and facing it forward? If so, where can you buy one? It seems to me that my M15 uses a boom bail designed for a large sailboat boom, but through the mast step bolt in order to hold the vang. I JUST ATTACH IT TO THE DECK RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE MAST WITH A GOOD STRAP EYE, WATCHING THAT THE EYE DOESN'T LOOSEN AND CAUSE DRY ROT. IF YOU KEEP THE BOAT IN THE WEATHER, I'D USE A BLOCK WITH A GOOD DECK PLATE, WHICH WILL BE MUCH LESS LIKELY TO WORK LOOSE AND LEAK. Good luck in the race- Geoff Prindle anmd I did it a couple of years ago in my Sage, but decided we were too old! Sincerely, Tyler '81 M15 "Defiant"
Thanks! I'm confused about why having the foreguy at the end of the pole prevents it from needing changing while gybing. Is this for cases where the pole is symmetric, so you don't have to flip it end to end during the gybe but just swap which end is on the ring? You guessed correctly, I'm asking because I am planning to do the delta dinghy ditch race next week. Sincerely, Tyler ----- Original Message ----- From: "jerry" <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 2:12:40 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: M15 spinnaker downhaul/foreguy questions -----Original Message----- From: casioqv@usermail.com Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 1:50 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: M15 spinnaker downhaul/foreguy questions I have a few M15 spinnaker downhaul/foreguy rigging questions. Just to be clear, I'm talking about a sheet/line that usually attaches between the center of the pole and the foredeck, to keep the pole from lifting, I am not 100% sure downhaul (or foreguy?) is the right term. YES, IT'S A FOREGUY, AS OPPOSED TO THE AFTERGUY, WHICH IS THE LINE OPPOSITE THE SHEET (BECOMING THE SHEET AFTER GYBING. 1. Does anyone know the reason why a spinnaker pole downhaul is usually installed in to pull downward on the center of the pole? It makes more sense to me that pulling at the very end, where the spinnaker attaches would drastically reduce the stress on the pole. Last year I did the Delta Dinghy Ditch with a painters pole as the spinnaker pole, and it was nearly snapping in half until I moved the downhaul to the tip, and then it seemed virtually stress free in gusts. ON SMALL BOATS IT'S ATTACHED DIRECTLY TO THE CENTER OF THE POLE SO THAT THE GUY WON'T NEED TO BE CHANGED WHEN GYBING. ON A larger boat, where strength is a question, a bridle can be used, or the guy can be attached to the end. If the block for the guy leads to a block well forward of the mast the guy can be attached to a simple bridle consisting of a line going from one end of the pole to the other with a small block hung on it so that the guy will stay forward, but then you'll need to adjust the foreguy every time you adjust the sheet. On a small boat I like the block just in front of the mast, and then a small bridle on the pole that consists of a wire from each end to a ring in the middle, with a few feet of scope, and the guy attaches to the ring. If you're worrying about the pole bending (a real fear in the Ditch race) this the best of both worlds. 2. Where is a good place to mount the downhaul block? Is it okay to mount it on the deck? I've been actually using a snatch block on the boom vang bail, but that makes gybing really hard. Has anyone tried installing a second boom vang bail and facing it forward? If so, where can you buy one? It seems to me that my M15 uses a boom bail designed for a large sailboat boom, but through the mast step bolt in order to hold the vang. I JUST ATTACH IT TO THE DECK RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE MAST WITH A GOOD STRAP EYE, WATCHING THAT THE EYE DOESN'T LOOSEN AND CAUSE DRY ROT. IF YOU KEEP THE BOAT IN THE WEATHER, I'D USE A BLOCK WITH A GOOD DECK PLATE, WHICH WILL BE MUCH LESS LIKELY TO WORK LOOSE AND LEAK. Good luck in the race- Geoff Prindle anmd I did it a couple of years ago in my Sage, but decided we were too old! Sincerely, Tyler '81 M15 "Defiant"
Yes, that's correct. Just disconnect it from the ring, snap it onto the new sheet, push it thru and connect the trailing end to the ring. Really good deck apes can do it in less than ten seconds. Kick butt in the Ditch race! -----Original Message----- From: casioqv@usermail.com Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2018 8:31 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: M15 spinnaker downhaul/foreguy questions Thanks! I'm confused about why having the foreguy at the end of the pole prevents it from needing changing while gybing. Is this for cases where the pole is symmetric, so you don't have to flip it end to end during the gybe but just swap which end is on the ring? You guessed correctly, I'm asking because I am planning to do the delta dinghy ditch race next week. Sincerely, Tyler ----- Original Message ----- From: "jerry" <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 2:12:40 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: M15 spinnaker downhaul/foreguy questions -----Original Message----- From: casioqv@usermail.com Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 1:50 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: M15 spinnaker downhaul/foreguy questions I have a few M15 spinnaker downhaul/foreguy rigging questions. Just to be clear, I'm talking about a sheet/line that usually attaches between the center of the pole and the foredeck, to keep the pole from lifting, I am not 100% sure downhaul (or foreguy?) is the right term. YES, IT'S A FOREGUY, AS OPPOSED TO THE AFTERGUY, WHICH IS THE LINE OPPOSITE THE SHEET (BECOMING THE SHEET AFTER GYBING. 1. Does anyone know the reason why a spinnaker pole downhaul is usually installed in to pull downward on the center of the pole? It makes more sense to me that pulling at the very end, where the spinnaker attaches would drastically reduce the stress on the pole. Last year I did the Delta Dinghy Ditch with a painters pole as the spinnaker pole, and it was nearly snapping in half until I moved the downhaul to the tip, and then it seemed virtually stress free in gusts. ON SMALL BOATS IT'S ATTACHED DIRECTLY TO THE CENTER OF THE POLE SO THAT THE GUY WON'T NEED TO BE CHANGED WHEN GYBING. ON A larger boat, where strength is a question, a bridle can be used, or the guy can be attached to the end. If the block for the guy leads to a block well forward of the mast the guy can be attached to a simple bridle consisting of a line going from one end of the pole to the other with a small block hung on it so that the guy will stay forward, but then you'll need to adjust the foreguy every time you adjust the sheet. On a small boat I like the block just in front of the mast, and then a small bridle on the pole that consists of a wire from each end to a ring in the middle, with a few feet of scope, and the guy attaches to the ring. If you're worrying about the pole bending (a real fear in the Ditch race) this the best of both worlds. 2. Where is a good place to mount the downhaul block? Is it okay to mount it on the deck? I've been actually using a snatch block on the boom vang bail, but that makes gybing really hard. Has anyone tried installing a second boom vang bail and facing it forward? If so, where can you buy one? It seems to me that my M15 uses a boom bail designed for a large sailboat boom, but through the mast step bolt in order to hold the vang. I JUST ATTACH IT TO THE DECK RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE MAST WITH A GOOD STRAP EYE, WATCHING THAT THE EYE DOESN'T LOOSEN AND CAUSE DRY ROT. IF YOU KEEP THE BOAT IN THE WEATHER, I'D USE A BLOCK WITH A GOOD DECK PLATE, WHICH WILL BE MUCH LESS LIKELY TO WORK LOOSE AND LEAK. Good luck in the race- Geoff Prindle anmd I did it a couple of years ago in my Sage, but decided we were too old! Sincerely, Tyler '81 M15 "Defiant"
Gary, Here is how I approach mast raising without using gin poles or lateral stabilizers. If you don’t receive some better ideas, I’ll be happy to furnish details. My apologies for second publication of same pic. Bill -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Gary Froeschner Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 9:22 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Mast raising Does anyone have links to photos (or information) of their mast raising equipment used to raise the mast by one person using the winches? I have a M17.
Nice idea...I do similar but without the big pole...keep it simple and relatively quick to set up. Raising, I use mainsheet tackle for leverage, one end fast to bow pulpit and other to jib halyard. A standard size wire gate climbing carabiner clips traveler block quickly to pulpit; halyard shackle quickly to boom block. Cam cleat on tackle holds the line as I "sheet in" to raise mast. Lowering, I just use a line from jib halyard to pulpit and then a few wraps backwards around a winch for friction. This assumes that one can lift the first few feet until the raising line has enough angle to take the weight, and lower the last few feet after the lowering line angle is too low to take the weight. Otherwise, if the tackle has to lift and lower all the way, a pole like Bill uses on the trailer is pretty clever, probably the easiest/quickest way to get a higher angle on the line. Easier than a gin pole that has to attach on the mast or tabernacle etc. Safety first of course...better an extra five or ten minutes to raise or lower than an injury. I need to get the cradle on my mast crutch moved aft just a few inches. Then the spreaders will land in front of it instead of behind and I can just slide the mast forward...without having to lift the @#$@#%! spreaders over the crutch (they come down just barely behind it) as the mast wants to tip over the stern. cheers, John On 07/28/2018 02:15 PM, Bill Dixon wrote:
Gary,
Here is how I approach mast raising without using gin poles or lateral stabilizers. If you don’t receive some better ideas, I’ll be happy to furnish details. My apologies for second publication of same pic.
Bill
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Gary Froeschner Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 9:22 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: Mast raising
Does anyone have links to photos (or information) of their mast raising
equipment used to raise the mast by one person using the winches? I
have a M17.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
participants (9)
-
Bill Dixon -
casioqv＠usermail.com -
Dave Scobie -
edwin jenkins -
Gary Froeschner -
jerry＠jerrymontgomery.org -
John Schinnerer -
swwheatley＠comcast.net -
Timothy JarviMD