Am looking for recommendations for a gps setup to use on my 17 for coastal cruising. Will a handheld suffice? Would I need one that will download charts? How will I know where I am when I am far enough off shore such that no physical markings are visible on the gps screen? Does the gps give lat/long readings which I then need to look up on a chart? Any advice will be appreciated. Tom B, M17 #258
Tom, I've always used a gps handheld in conjunction with paper charts, using the electronics to give position by Lat/Long and finding where I am on the charts. Thomas Howe McGrew Real Estate 785-550-1169 -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Thomas Buzzi Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 7:10 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: gps Am looking for recommendations for a gps setup to use on my 17 for coastal cruising. Will a handheld suffice? Would I need one that will download charts? How will I know where I am when I am far enough off shore such that no physical markings are visible on the gps screen? Does the gps give lat/long readings which I then need to look up on a chart? Any advice will be appreciated. Tom B, M17 #258
I do the same as Thomas Howe. IMO paper chart batteries never fail ;-) Get free NOAA charts here - http://www.nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/staff/BookletChart.html I currently use an old Garmin 76 (for 8 years now). I have never purchased electronic charts for the unit. I use the unit mainly as a knot meter and then to find my location. :: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA :: Former M15 owner On Dec 4, 2014 8:22 AM, "Thomas Howe" <Thomas@thomashoweonline.com> wrote:
Tom, I've always used a gps handheld in conjunction with paper charts, using the electronics to give position by Lat/Long and finding where I am on the charts.
Thomas Howe McGrew Real Estate 785-550-1169
-----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto: montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Thomas Buzzi Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 7:10 AM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: M_Boats: gps
Am looking for recommendations for a gps setup to use on my 17 for coastal cruising. Will a handheld suffice? Would I need one that will download charts? How will I know where I am when I am far enough off shore such that no physical markings are visible on the gps screen? Does the gps give lat/long readings which I then need to look up on a chart? Any advice will be appreciated. Tom B, M17 #258
Use your iPad and get Navionics navigation app. Bill Ahrens W. A. Ahrens & Associates
On Dec 4, 2014, at 6:09 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Am looking for recommendations for a gps setup to use on my 17 for coastal cruising. Will a handheld suffice? Would I need one that will download charts? How will I know where I am when I am far enough off shore such that no physical markings are visible on the gps screen? Does the gps give lat/long readings which I then need to look up on a chart? Any advice will be appreciated. Tom B, M17 #258
On 12/4/2014 7:09 AM, Thomas Buzzi wrote: Hi Tom, My blue water sailing days were long before modern GPS became readily available. You navigated on paper charts by drawing your course line from A to B; took a departure time as you left the harbor, and kept track of your boat speed. From your chart you know the distance between your departure point (A) and your destination (B) in nautical miles. Time X boat speed =s distance traveled (roughly) - you also have to calculate tide flow; direction and velocity: with you or against you; or at some angle to your course so that you know how far the tide displaces you from your course line. Your average boat speed divided into total distance to travel gives you your ETA. (Estimated Time of Arrival) at your destination (B). You keep track of where you are along your course line by taking compass bearings of visual objects; light house / church steeple / buoys enroute, and note your time of passing on your chart. That way, if you get into a sudden fog, you know where you were; where you are going and what to look for along that route. Tom, remember, GPS is a wonderful tool as long as it works, but when the battery is empty, and the screen goes blank, what then....? Electronics and salt water or fresh water don't get along with each other reliably for very long Learn dead reckoning navigation, and you will always have something to use when the electronics quit, and quit they will. MURPHY decrees that they will always fail at the worst possible moment for you. It's much better to wear suspenders and a belt to keep you trousers up than to rely on an electronic Tinkerbell to do it for you. A GPS is a great tool, but never rely 100% on it to take care of your navigation. Connie Have sextant, 7 X 50 binoculars, hand bearing compass, lead line, and stop watch, and know how to use them.
Am looking for recommendations for a gps setup to use on my 17 for coastal cruising. Will a handheld suffice? Would I need one that will download charts? How will I know where I am when I am far enough off shore such that no physical markings are visible on the gps screen? Does the gps give lat/long readings which I then need to look up on a chart? Any advice will be appreciated. Tom B, M17 #258
On 12/4/2014 10:55 AM, Conbert Benneck wrote:
On 12/4/2014 7:09 AM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Addendum to my email: If you are out of sight of land, you get a position using your sextant for a latitude, together with a time from an accurate chronometer that give you a longitude (that is why everything is based on Greenwich Mean Time). Connie
Hi Tom,
My blue water sailing days were long before modern GPS became readily available.
You navigated on paper charts by drawing your course line from A to B; took a departure time as you left the harbor, and kept track of your boat speed. From your chart you know the distance between your departure point (A) and your destination (B) in nautical miles.
Time X boat speed =s distance traveled (roughly) - you also have to calculate tide flow; direction and velocity: with you or against you; or at some angle to your course so that you know how far the tide displaces you from your course line. Your average boat speed divided into total distance to travel gives you your ETA. (Estimated Time of Arrival) at your destination (B).
You keep track of where you are along your course line by taking compass bearings of visual objects; light house / church steeple / buoys enroute, and note your time of passing on your chart. That way, if you get into a sudden fog, you know where you were; where you are going and what to look for along that route.
Tom, remember, GPS is a wonderful tool as long as it works, but when the battery is empty, and the screen goes blank, what then....? Electronics and salt water or fresh water don't get along with each other reliably for very long
Learn dead reckoning navigation, and you will always have something to use when the electronics quit, and quit they will. MURPHY decrees that they will always fail at the worst possible moment for you.
It's much better to wear suspenders and a belt to keep you trousers up than to rely on an electronic Tinkerbell to do it for you.
A GPS is a great tool, but never rely 100% on it to take care of your navigation.
Connie Have sextant, 7 X 50 binoculars, hand bearing compass, lead line, and stop watch, and know how to use them.
Am looking for recommendations for a gps setup to use on my 17 for coastal cruising. Will a handheld suffice? Would I need one that will download charts? How will I know where I am when I am far enough off shore such that no physical markings are visible on the gps screen? Does the gps give lat/long readings which I then need to look up on a chart? Any advice will be appreciated. Tom B, M17 #258
One of the most interesting stories in naval history is the problem with navigation because of the difficulty with determining longitude. Whole flotillas were lost. There is a terrific book called Longitude <http://www.amazon.com/Longitude-Genius-Greatest-Scientific-Problem/dp/080271529X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1417715483&sr=1-1&keywords=longitude> from Dava Sobel that talks about the history of working this out. A story of intrigue, science...compelling read. If you have not read it you would love it as a sailor. Daniel Rich M15 Kestrel On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Conbert Benneck <chbenneck@gmail.com> wrote:
On 12/4/2014 10:55 AM, Conbert Benneck wrote:
On 12/4/2014 7:09 AM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Addendum to my email:
If you are out of sight of land, you get a position using your sextant for a latitude, together with a time from an accurate chronometer that give you a longitude (that is why everything is based on Greenwich Mean Time).
Connie
Hi Tom,
My blue water sailing days were long before modern GPS became readily available.
You navigated on paper charts by drawing your course line from A to B; took a departure time as you left the harbor, and kept track of your boat speed. From your chart you know the distance between your departure point (A) and your destination (B) in nautical miles.
Time X boat speed =s distance traveled (roughly) - you also have to calculate tide flow; direction and velocity: with you or against you; or at some angle to your course so that you know how far the tide displaces you from your course line. Your average boat speed divided into total distance to travel gives you your ETA. (Estimated Time of Arrival) at your destination (B).
You keep track of where you are along your course line by taking compass bearings of visual objects; light house / church steeple / buoys enroute, and note your time of passing on your chart. That way, if you get into a sudden fog, you know where you were; where you are going and what to look for along that route.
Tom, remember, GPS is a wonderful tool as long as it works, but when the battery is empty, and the screen goes blank, what then....? Electronics and salt water or fresh water don't get along with each other reliably for very long
Learn dead reckoning navigation, and you will always have something to use when the electronics quit, and quit they will. MURPHY decrees that they will always fail at the worst possible moment for you.
It's much better to wear suspenders and a belt to keep you trousers up than to rely on an electronic Tinkerbell to do it for you.
A GPS is a great tool, but never rely 100% on it to take care of your navigation.
Connie Have sextant, 7 X 50 binoculars, hand bearing compass, lead line, and stop watch, and know how to use them.
Am looking for recommendations for a gps setup to use on my 17 for
coastal cruising. Will a handheld suffice? Would I need one that will download charts? How will I know where I am when I am far enough off shore such that no physical markings are visible on the gps screen? Does the gps give lat/long readings which I then need to look up on a chart? Any advice will be appreciated. Tom B, M17 #258
Thomas, I'm late to this conversation but agree heartily with Sean & Connie. I use a chart plotter and have a hand held GPS on board. But I also have a compass & paper charts and know where I am with them at all times. The only additional tip I would offer is to practice sharpening your powers of observation. Pay attention to the waves and the direction of the swell in relation to your heading and to the sore as you leave. The swell will stay consistent for long periods of time and will give you valuable info if you're suddenly enveloped in fog right after your batteries fail (which just happens to be when your batteries are most likely to fail). Good times can turn into a tragedy with astounding speed! Prepare for your worst case scenario and assume that you are likely to make an error at some point. The sea is relentless and unforgiving but I still head out across the bar every chance I get. I just try to go prepared. Mark Dvorscak M23 Faith On Dec 4, 2014 5:09 AM, "Thomas Buzzi" <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Am looking for recommendations for a gps setup to use on my 17 for coastal cruising. Will a handheld suffice? Would I need one that will download charts? How will I know where I am when I am far enough off shore such that no physical markings are visible on the gps screen? Does the gps give lat/long readings which I then need to look up on a chart? Any advice will be appreciated. Tom B, M17 #258
Neat tip about the swells, Mark. Thanks. Reminds me of an article I read quite a while ago about how the Polynesians crossed the vast expanses of the Pacific. They could actually read the swells and waves as they were affected by islands which were still hundreds of miles away. The human brain is a never ending source of wonder. On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 6:45 PM, Mark Dvorscak <mdvorscak56@gmail.com> wrote:
Thomas, I'm late to this conversation but agree heartily with Sean & Connie. I use a chart plotter and have a hand held GPS on board. But I also have a compass & paper charts and know where I am with them at all times. The only additional tip I would offer is to practice sharpening your powers of observation. Pay attention to the waves and the direction of the swell in relation to your heading and to the sore as you leave. The swell will stay consistent for long periods of time and will give you valuable info if you're suddenly enveloped in fog right after your batteries fail (which just happens to be when your batteries are most likely to fail). Good times can turn into a tragedy with astounding speed! Prepare for your worst case scenario and assume that you are likely to make an error at some point. The sea is relentless and unforgiving but I still head out across the bar every chance I get. I just try to go prepared. Mark Dvorscak M23 Faith On Dec 4, 2014 5:09 AM, "Thomas Buzzi" <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Am looking for recommendations for a gps setup to use on my 17 for coastal cruising. Will a handheld suffice? Would I need one that will download charts? How will I know where I am when I am far enough off shore such that no physical markings are visible on the gps screen? Does the gps give lat/long readings which I then need to look up on a chart? Any advice will be appreciated. Tom B, M17 #258
Great thread on navigation! FYI the Polynesian art of nautical wayfinding with body, mind, wind patterns, water patterns, weather patterns, stars and planets, other natural signs - and nothing else - is being revived. It long pre-dates the mechanical systems of European origin. It came very close to dying out. There is lots of information, short videos, and whole documentaries online. Search on "polynesian voyaging" or "polynesian navigation" or "polynesian navigation" etc. Here are some articles by Nainoa Thompson, the first contemporary Hawaiian to re-learn the basics, taught by Mau Piailug of Micronesia, one of the last traditional wayfinders that Nainoa and other young Hawaiians leading the cultural renaissance in the early 1970s could find. http://www.pbs.org/wayfinders/wayfinding2.html There is already a third generation of young wayfinders in progress, Nainoa and the first handful to learn from Mau having launched a second generation and now all are teaching a third (maybe even getting to a fourth generation by now, some start in their early-mid teens). Speaking of brilliant sailing craft design, not to veer too far OT - Montys are awesome, for one, and I am also captivated by the Polynesian voyaging canoe designs, both the originals also being revived in Polynesia, and the application of Polynesian multi-hull design knowledge and principles since the late 1950's by James Wharram in the UK - for more, see: http://wharram.com cheers, John S. ...figuring on some day having one or more of a Monty, a Wharram, and a Farrier F-22...but meanwhile refurbishing a much neglected El Toro class sailing dinghy, #769. On 12/04/2014 07:21 PM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Neat tip about the swells, Mark. Thanks. Reminds me of an article I read quite a while ago about how the Polynesians crossed the vast expanses of the Pacific. They could actually read the swells and waves as they were affected by islands which were still hundreds of miles away. The human brain is a never ending source of wonder.
On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 6:45 PM, Mark Dvorscak <mdvorscak56@gmail.com> wrote:
Thomas, I'm late to this conversation but agree heartily with Sean & Connie. I use a chart plotter and have a hand held GPS on board. But I also have a compass & paper charts and know where I am with them at all times. The only additional tip I would offer is to practice sharpening your powers of observation. Pay attention to the waves and the direction of the swell in relation to your heading and to the sore as you leave. The swell will stay consistent for long periods of time and will give you valuable info if you're suddenly enveloped in fog right after your batteries fail (which just happens to be when your batteries are most likely to fail). Good times can turn into a tragedy with astounding speed! Prepare for your worst case scenario and assume that you are likely to make an error at some point. The sea is relentless and unforgiving but I still head out across the bar every chance I get. I just try to go prepared. Mark Dvorscak M23 Faith On Dec 4, 2014 5:09 AM, "Thomas Buzzi" <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Am looking for recommendations for a gps setup to use on my 17 for coastal cruising. Will a handheld suffice? Would I need one that will download charts? How will I know where I am when I am far enough off shore such that no physical markings are visible on the gps screen? Does the gps give lat/long readings which I then need to look up on a chart? Any advice will be appreciated. Tom B, M17 #258
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
On GPS, I was recently told by someone of authority.......can't remember who.........that the US Navy had gone all in for GPS and was no longer teaching it's navigation officers celestial navigation. If so, I would be shocked. While they may have redundant backup systems on board, none of those would work if some rogue nation figures out a way to disable the GPS birds. Can anyone confirm or deny this?
Discussion here - http://www.oceannavigator.com/November-December-2013/Teaching-celestial/ Specific about military in later half of the above linked article. :: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA :: Former M15 owner On Dec 5, 2014 6:05 AM, "Howard Audsley" <haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
On GPS, I was recently told by someone of authority.......can't remember who.........that the US Navy had gone all in for GPS and was no longer teaching it's navigation officers celestial navigation. If so, I would be shocked. While they may have redundant backup systems on board, none of those would work if some rogue nation figures out a way to disable the GPS birds.
Can anyone confirm or deny this?
On 12/5/2014 7:12 AM, Dave Scobie wrote: Hi Dave, Thanks for the interesting article on celestial navigation. It may be fine for the US Navy to be able to navigate with encrypted satellite signals, but as a small boat sailor who doesn't have access to the equipment that the US Navy uses; have sextant / can (could) navigate. Connie
Discussion here -
http://www.oceannavigator.com/November-December-2013/Teaching-celestial/
Specific about military in later half of the above linked article.
:: Dave Scobie :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA :: Former M15 owner On Dec 5, 2014 6:05 AM, "Howard Audsley" <haudsley@tranquility.net> wrote:
On GPS, I was recently told by someone of authority.......can't remember who.........that the US Navy had gone all in for GPS and was no longer teaching it's navigation officers celestial navigation. If so, I would be shocked. While they may have redundant backup systems on board, none of those would work if some rogue nation figures out a way to disable the GPS birds.
Can anyone confirm or deny this?
participants (9)
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billahrens＠comcast.net -
Conbert Benneck -
Daniel Rich -
Dave Scobie -
Howard Audsley -
John Schinnerer -
Mark Dvorscak -
Thomas Buzzi -
Thomas Howe