Jerry, I hope I am not too late to get in on your weekend thought process. My opinions are biased towards cruising so I would opt for spliting the extra lenght between the cockpit and cabin. In a small boat you do live in the cockpit much of the time. As other people have already noted the need for comfortable sitting head room would be an enormous advantage. The interior of the Sun Cat 16 was very nicely done but it had a lot of beam to work with. Perhaps a slide out table from under the cockpit floor, with sitting head room on the side would be a nice set up for writing, playing cards, doing email or reading charts on a rainy afternoon. As to the hull, I do like the looks of the lapstrake but a nice classic shear always adds a salty look. Until I found the Montgomery 15 I came close to building a Meadow bird 16 in the non lapstrake version. So you might consider a split sail cruising rig. I am finding my Gaff cutter to be a more verstile cruise than the bermuda rig and with the good long keel in the M15 I do not give up much to windard at all. Thanks Doug Kelch M15G #310 "Seas the Day" --- On Wed, 5/13/09, jerry <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> wrote: From: jerry <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> Subject: M_Boats: market research To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 3:25 PM Something more pleasant! I've been in a dialog with a builder to design a "Montgomery style" boat; probably 16', and I'd like to ask you for some opinions and comments. Lapstrake: How do you think the average buyer, looking for a boat in this size range, would look at a lapstrake hull as opposed to a smooth hull? You and I are probably prejudiced so we don't count. People can see that a lapstrake hull is dryer (but not much, really) and they can see that it's stiffer- again, not much. A lapstrake hull is a bit heavier but weight in a hull doesn't really slow the boat down enough to matter even to me. There is a cost factor, partly because of taking longer to lay up, a little more material, and because it takes a bit better molder, but not much, and really, the deck has more man hours in it than a hull so cost is a small factor. I don;'t believe there is a performance factor of any import. Maybe I'm saying too much; and the simple question is: which would sell best to the average buyer? I'm thinking the interior would be a roomier version of the 15, with a little more storage, and more comfortable sitting headroom. Also, the 15 cockpit is about 5.5' long, and when i'd take a 15 cruising I'd cleat the drop hatches to bridge the cockpit benches and sleep at a diagonal. This worked fine for me but would not work for most couples, especially if they fight a lot. The 17 cockpit, being over 6', was much better for sleeping in the cockpit. Here's the question : where would you like to see the extra foot of length- in the cockpit or the interior, or what combination of both? Any other comments would be welcome. My ex-wife used to call me a know-it-all but we all know I'm not! I think these subjects would be good for the list, but if you don't like speaking to a crowd feel free to email me directly at jerry@jerrymontgomery.org. jerry _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Doug Kelch wrote:
Jerry,
I hope I am not too late to get in on your weekend thought process.
My opinions are biased towards cruising so I would opt for spliting the extra lenght between the cockpit and cabin. In a small boat you do live in the cockpit much of the time. As other people have already noted the need for comfortable sitting head room would be an enormous advantage.
The interior of the Sun Cat 16 was very nicely done but it had a lot of beam to work with.
Perhaps a slide out table from under the cockpit floor, with sitting head room on the side would be a nice set up for writing, playing cards, doing email or reading charts on a rainy afternoon.
As to the hull, I do like the looks of the lapstrake but a nice classic shear always adds a salty look. Until I found the Montgomery 15 I came close to building a Meadow bird 16 in the non lapstrake version.
So you might consider a split sail cruising rig. I am finding my Gaff cutter to be a more verstile cruise than the bermuda rig and with the good long keel in the M15 I do not give up much to windard at all.
Thanks
Doug Kelch M15G #310 "Seas the Day" --- On Wed, 5/13/09, jerry <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> wrote:
From: jerry <jerry@jerrymontgomery.org> Subject: M_Boats: market research To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 3:25 PM
Something more pleasant! I've been in a dialog with a builder to design a "Montgomery style" boat; probably 16', and I'd like to ask you for some opinions and comments.
Lapstrake: How do you think the average buyer, looking for a boat in this size range, would look at a lapstrake hull as opposed to a smooth hull? You and I are probably prejudiced so we don't count. People can see that a lapstrake hull is dryer (but not much, really) and they can see that it's stiffer- again, not much. A lapstrake hull is a bit heavier but weight in a hull doesn't really slow the boat down enough to matter even to me. There is a cost factor, partly because of taking longer to lay up, a little more material, and because it takes a bit better molder, but not much, and really, the deck has more man hours in it than a hull so cost is a small factor. I don;'t believe there is a performance factor of any import. Maybe I'm saying too much; and the simple question is: which would sell best to the average buyer?
I'm thinking the interior would be a roomier version of the 15, with a little more storage, and more comfortable sitting headroom. Also, the 15 cockpit is about 5.5' long, and when i'd take a 15 cruising I'd cleat the drop hatches to bridge the cockpit benches and sleep at a diagonal. This worked fine for me but would not work for most couples, especially if they fight a lot. The 17 cockpit, being over 6', was much better for sleeping in the cockpit. Here's the question : where would you like to see the extra foot of length- in the cockpit or the interior, or what combination of both?
Any other comments would be welcome. My ex-wife used to call me a know-it-all but we all know I'm not! I think these subjects would be good for the list, but if you don't like speaking to a crowd feel free to email me directly at jerry@jerrymontgomery.org.
jerry _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
_______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Remember, there is no privacy on the Internet!
Hi Jerry, The M15 is a delightful vessel, but..... on any new design, please have sail lockers that are full hull depth P/S. On my #400, I cut around the lip of the shallow Port sail locker to gain access to all that additional space. Then I had the best of both worlds: the shallow locker for small stuff; but full access to the vast space below where I stored the Bimini, extra cockpit cushions; my paddle / boat hook, etc. After sailing Phil Bolger's MICRO with the cat yawl rig, I became an instant believer. The advantages were: the mast was stepped all the way forward, so that there was no mast, or mast support post inside the cabin. That meant that the whole interior was usable space. Despite the square box "Bolger" design, it was a great sailing vessel, and I was close winded so I could sail almost as fast as a 30 footer hard on the wind while trying to stay inside the Intercoastal Waterway in the Clearwater, FL area. The 30 footer had their crew sitting on the weather rail as we both clawed to windward, and they took a very long time to pull away from me. The foot of the main sail was about 13 feet long. Then add the mizzen area, and you had a large sail area in relation to the length of the hull. The disadvantage with that rig - for me in my mid-70s - was stepping the mast in the forward area. It had to be held at about 80 degrees to get it into the mast step. That became too much of a chore, which was the reason we sold it and went looking for something with a stayed mast . Phil Bolger later modified the design and put the mast in a tabernacle, which, obviously, made stepping the mast a much easier proposition. While the MICRO was only about 15' long, it had vast interior room - full sitting headroom; lots of stowage space; and when sailing, you sat on the deck with your feet in a hatch. With the hatch cover in place, the deck area was substantial as well. -------------------------- When I installed the lift outboard motor mount in place of the original fixed mount on #400, I cut a rectangular access port in the cockpit seat to gain access to the transom area where I had to work. When I was finished, and had installed a rectangular hatch to close it, I found this a nice improvement as well. Now I had a separate small access hatch where I could store all my light weight boat cleaning items: a pail, sponge; scrub brush, cleaner, etc. and though I had put these items in the same place before I made the modification, now I was able to reach what was formerly pushed back to the transom, very easily. -------------------------- A Dorade vent forward is needed for better cabin ventilation. ----------------------------- Use cam cleats for all sheets rather than the jam cleats in the new design. Thanks for designing and building such a great little vessel. We thoroughly enjoyed ours, till Neptune decreed that I was getting too old for that sort of playing. Happy sailing, Connie Benneck ex M15 #400 LEPPO
participants (2)
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Conbert H. Benneck -
Doug Kelch