Re: M_Boats: Motor shaft length on cut-out transom M17
The mount was a frequent response to the lack of room in the cutout for the shifter/throttle/tiller arm and some motors did not have enof room to rotate for 'reverse' operation - I installed a tiny fixed mount at the same height as the cut-out and use a 20" 4hp Evinrude Yachtwin (no reverse) - luckily solved all problems and adds minimum weight. GO In a message dated 9/13/2015 4:19:47 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, john@eco-living.net writes: Interesting to me because my M17 has the cutout but also a nice spring-loaded stainless mount. It came with a Tohatsu 6hp long shaft, which seems like overkill in both weight and HP - thoughts on that? But if I keep it for now, sounds like it would affect balance less if I remove the mount and put it in the cutout, yes? Assuming it tilts enough to clear the water and the cutout is wide enough for its head/throttle configuration. thanks, John S. On 09/06/2015 09:15 PM, Dave Scobie wrote:
for the old cutout transom M17s the Suzuki 4HP or 6HP (same motor, the 4HP is just a 'de powered' 6HP ... the 6HP has the external tank option) is great. the reason the Suzuki works great is the control/throttle arm is set closer the center of the powerhead than other motors. a control/throttle arm that 'sticks out to the side' is difficult to fit into the transom cutout - do some measuring before you purchase a motor.
DON'T, in my opinion, be tempted to put an outboard motor mount on the transom. the boat will sail better with a motor mounted in the cutout (a weight balance issue). when Jerry modified the hull mold, and make the new deck mold, in '82 he removed the cutout because of 'market forces', not because the transom mounted motor mounts are superior.
a 20" will work fine ... a longer shaft could be a challenge as it will drag in the water (maybe?).
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
OK, thanks - I can see that being an issue for some motors. The Tohatsu 6hp has F-N-R gears and front mounted shift lever; no need to spin it 180 or reach down over transom to shift. cheers, John S. On 09/14/2015 10:24 AM, GILASAILR--- via montgomery_boats wrote:
The mount was a frequent response to the lack of room in the cutout for the shifter/throttle/tiller arm and some motors did not have enof room to rotate for 'reverse' operation - I installed a tiny fixed mount at the same height as the cut-out and use a 20" 4hp Evinrude Yachtwin (no reverse) - luckily solved all problems and adds minimum weight.
GO
In a message dated 9/13/2015 4:19:47 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, john@eco-living.net writes:
Interesting to me because my M17 has the cutout but also a nice spring-loaded stainless mount. It came with a Tohatsu 6hp long shaft, which seems like overkill in both weight and HP - thoughts on that?
But if I keep it for now, sounds like it would affect balance less if I remove the mount and put it in the cutout, yes? Assuming it tilts enough to clear the water and the cutout is wide enough for its head/throttle configuration.
thanks, John S.
On 09/06/2015 09:15 PM, Dave Scobie wrote:
for the old cutout transom M17s the Suzuki 4HP or 6HP (same motor, the 4HP is just a 'de powered' 6HP ... the 6HP has the external tank option) is great. the reason the Suzuki works great is the control/throttle arm is set closer the center of the powerhead than other motors. a control/throttle arm that 'sticks out to the side' is difficult to fit into the transom cutout - do some measuring before you purchase a motor.
DON'T, in my opinion, be tempted to put an outboard motor mount on the transom. the boat will sail better with a motor mounted in the cutout (a weight balance issue). when Jerry modified the hull mold, and make the new deck mold, in '82 he removed the cutout because of 'market forces', not because the transom mounted motor mounts are superior.
a 20" will work fine ... a longer shaft could be a challenge as it will drag in the water (maybe?).
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Jerry is having email problems so i'm sending this for him - I tooled the original M17's transom cutout for a 4HP (a 2-cycle Johnson) long shaft outboard. -- Jerry Montgomery
On 09/14/2015 10:24 AM, GILASAILR--- via montgomery_boats wrote:
The mount was a frequent response to the lack of room in the cutout for
the shifter/throttle/tiller arm and some motors did not have enof room to rotate for 'reverse' operation - I installed a tiny fixed mount at the same height as the cut-out and use a 20" 4hp Evinrude Yachtwin (no reverse) - luckily solved all problems and adds minimum weight.
GO
Just bought a long shaft Tohatsu. The book that came with it states the cavitation plate should be one inch below the bottom of the boat. Hope that works out with Jerry's designed ob cutout. On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Jerry is having email problems so i'm sending this for him -
I tooled the original M17's transom cutout for a 4HP (a 2-cycle Johnson) long shaft outboard.
-- Jerry Montgomery
On 09/14/2015 10:24 AM, GILASAILR--- via montgomery_boats wrote:
The mount was a frequent response to the lack of room in the cutout for
the shifter/throttle/tiller arm and some motors did not have enof room to rotate for 'reverse' operation - I installed a tiny fixed mount at the same height as the cut-out and use a 20" 4hp Evinrude Yachtwin (no reverse)
luckily solved all problems and adds minimum weight.
GO
The standard model (20" shaft) or the "sail pro" (25")? I have the 6 hp sail pro, which from the specs is the same engine as the 5hp and 4hp, just with less hp (same weight, same displacement engine, same gear ratio, etc.). cheers, John S. On 09/18/2015 09:16 AM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Just bought a long shaft Tohatsu. The book that came with it states the cavitation plate should be one inch below the bottom of the boat. Hope that works out with Jerry's designed ob cutout.
On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Jerry is having email problems so i'm sending this for him -
I tooled the original M17's transom cutout for a 4HP (a 2-cycle Johnson) long shaft outboard.
-- Jerry Montgomery
On 09/14/2015 10:24 AM, GILASAILR--- via montgomery_boats wrote:
The mount was a frequent response to the lack of room in the cutout for
the shifter/throttle/tiller arm and some motors did not have enof room to rotate for 'reverse' operation - I installed a tiny fixed mount at the same height as the cut-out and use a 20" 4hp Evinrude Yachtwin (no reverse)
luckily solved all problems and adds minimum weight.
GO
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Hi John, I have the standard 20" long shaft. I believe the "Sailpro" comes as a 6 hp only. Also the alternator is available only on the 6. I believe I will investigate solar for trickle charging. Tom B. Monty 17 #258.1977 On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 11:42 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
The standard model (20" shaft) or the "sail pro" (25")?
I have the 6 hp sail pro, which from the specs is the same engine as the 5hp and 4hp, just with less hp (same weight, same displacement engine, same gear ratio, etc.).
cheers, John S.
On 09/18/2015 09:16 AM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Just bought a long shaft Tohatsu. The book that came with it states the cavitation plate should be one inch below the bottom of the boat. Hope that works out with Jerry's designed ob cutout.
On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Jerry is having email problems so i'm sending this for him -
I tooled the original M17's transom cutout for a 4HP (a 2-cycle Johnson) long shaft outboard.
-- Jerry Montgomery
On 09/14/2015 10:24 AM, GILASAILR--- via montgomery_boats wrote:
The mount was a frequent response to the lack of room in the cutout for
the shifter/throttle/tiller arm and some motors did not have enof room
to
rotate for 'reverse' operation - I installed a tiny fixed mount at the
same height as the cut-out and use a 20" 4hp Evinrude Yachtwin (no reverse)
-
luckily solved all problems and adds minimum weight.
GO
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
The Tohatsu web site shows the alternator as an option on the 5hp and 4hp. As far as I can tell it's the same exact motor, with reduced hp for the 5 and 4. Same castings and housing etc., but the alternator is not standard except on the sail pro 6hp model. If you can add it on for a reasonable cost it could be worth it. It will actually put some juice in your battery if you are motoring for a few hours here and there. In the same timeframe you will get nothing much from solar panels you can fit on a boat our size, unless you cover your topsides with amorphous thin-film photovoltaic material (theoretically possible these days, but doesn't work well as non-skid decking... :-). cheers, John S. On 09/18/2015 10:16 AM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Hi John, I have the standard 20" long shaft. I believe the "Sailpro" comes as a 6 hp only. Also the alternator is available only on the 6. I believe I will investigate solar for trickle charging. Tom B. Monty 17 #258.1977
On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 11:42 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
The standard model (20" shaft) or the "sail pro" (25")?
I have the 6 hp sail pro, which from the specs is the same engine as the 5hp and 4hp, just with less hp (same weight, same displacement engine, same gear ratio, etc.).
cheers, John S.
On 09/18/2015 09:16 AM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Just bought a long shaft Tohatsu. The book that came with it states the cavitation plate should be one inch below the bottom of the boat. Hope that works out with Jerry's designed ob cutout.
On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Jerry is having email problems so i'm sending this for him -
I tooled the original M17's transom cutout for a 4HP (a 2-cycle Johnson) long shaft outboard.
-- Jerry Montgomery
On 09/14/2015 10:24 AM, GILASAILR--- via montgomery_boats wrote:
The mount was a frequent response to the lack of room in the cutout for
the shifter/throttle/tiller arm and some motors did not have enof room
to
rotate for 'reverse' operation - I installed a tiny fixed mount at the
same height as the cut-out and use a 20" 4hp Evinrude Yachtwin (no reverse)
-
luckily solved all problems and adds minimum weight.
GO
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
the alternators put out little power at the RPMs needed for our boats to go a good cruising speed. the 4HP Suzuki on my M17 is running at less than 50% to reach cruise speed. the stated alternator output is based on the motor running near full power; as done for power boats running on a plane. to get specifics need to put an amp-meter on the system to confirm what power is being generated ... and then figure the loss between the alternator and the battery. -- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 12:30 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
The Tohatsu web site shows the alternator as an option on the 5hp and 4hp. As far as I can tell it's the same exact motor, with reduced hp for the 5 and 4. Same castings and housing etc., but the alternator is not standard except on the sail pro 6hp model.
If you can add it on for a reasonable cost it could be worth it. It will actually put some juice in your battery if you are motoring for a few hours here and there.
In the same timeframe you will get nothing much from solar panels you can fit on a boat our size, unless you cover your topsides with amorphous thin-film photovoltaic material (theoretically possible these days, but doesn't work well as non-skid decking... :-).
cheers, John S.
I'll test mine when I get it wired up. Anyone already tested this on their small outboard with alternator? Tohatsu specs don't say anything about engine speed vs. alternator output. Alternators generally put out near rated power once they're a bit above idle RPMs. On cars anyhow; no reason I know of it would be different on boat motors. It's generators (like on that VW van I had :-) where the output is more linearly tied to engine speed. More RPMs = higher output. Not the case for most alternators, except at idle RPMs. cheers, John S. On 09/18/2015 11:59 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
the alternators put out little power at the RPMs needed for our boats to go a good cruising speed. the 4HP Suzuki on my M17 is running at less than 50% to reach cruise speed. the stated alternator output is based on the motor running near full power; as done for power boats running on a plane.
to get specifics need to put an amp-meter on the system to confirm what power is being generated ... and then figure the loss between the alternator and the battery.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
OK, changing the topic a bit based on this: On 09/18/2015 11:59 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
...the 4HP Suzuki on my M17 is running at less than 50% to reach cruise speed.
So what is anyone's experience on what HP outboard is adequate for an M17? Mine came with this nice, low hours Tohatsu 6hp sail pro model. It seems to me like overkill. And, with Tohatsu at least, no point downgrading to their 5hp or 4hp because they are the same carcass, basically same size and weight. Looking at Evinrude, Mercury, Suzuki, Honda...all making the same basic range of motors, same weight within a few pounds in HP class, etc. The break point is under 4 hp, where the 2.5-3.5 hp units are significantly lighter and smaller. Any experiences welcome - what do you find adequate for your M17 auxiliary motor needs? thanks, John S. -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Hi John, I've been running a Honda 2 hp long shaft on my M17 for seven years with never a problem. Weighs less than 30 lb, so there are almost no balance or trim issues, and it's super reliable. I've never felt that I needed more power. Rick M17 #633 Lynne L On Friday, September 18, 2015, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
OK, changing the topic a bit based on this:
On 09/18/2015 11:59 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
...the 4HP Suzuki on my M17 is running at less than 50% to reach cruise speed.
So what is anyone's experience on what HP outboard is adequate for an M17?
Mine came with this nice, low hours Tohatsu 6hp sail pro model. It seems to me like overkill.
And, with Tohatsu at least, no point downgrading to their 5hp or 4hp because they are the same carcass, basically same size and weight.
Looking at Evinrude, Mercury, Suzuki, Honda...all making the same basic range of motors, same weight within a few pounds in HP class, etc.
The break point is under 4 hp, where the 2.5-3.5 hp units are significantly lighter and smaller.
Any experiences welcome - what do you find adequate for your M17 auxiliary motor needs?
thanks, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
On 9/18/2015 2:59 PM, Rick Davies wrote: Rick, Many years ago an owner of an M17 asked me to lend him my 2 HP HONDA (from my M15) since he had no motor and had to take his boat to a take-out ramp. This was in the Thames River, at New London, CT. After hanging the 2 HP HONDA on the M17, with four adults and a few beers on board; out-going tide in the Thames; and the wind on the nose; we had no problems at all running the M17 upstream to the launch ramp under these conditions. It's the old problem: if the wind is really blowing and the waves are building, and you want to use a motor to make headway you'll need more HP. But, under these conditions it would be easier to sail with reefs cranked in.... For calmer conditions, 2 HP is really all you need, as our test proved. Connie
Hi John,
I've been running a Honda 2 hp long shaft on my M17 for seven years with never a problem. Weighs less than 30 lb, so there are almost no balance or trim issues, and it's super reliable. I've never felt that I needed more power.
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Friday, September 18, 2015, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
OK, changing the topic a bit based on this:
On 09/18/2015 11:59 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
...the 4HP Suzuki on my M17 is running at less than 50% to reach cruise speed.
So what is anyone's experience on what HP outboard is adequate for an M17?
Mine came with this nice, low hours Tohatsu 6hp sail pro model. It seems to me like overkill.
And, with Tohatsu at least, no point downgrading to their 5hp or 4hp because they are the same carcass, basically same size and weight.
Looking at Evinrude, Mercury, Suzuki, Honda...all making the same basic range of motors, same weight within a few pounds in HP class, etc.
The break point is under 4 hp, where the 2.5-3.5 hp units are significantly lighter and smaller.
Any experiences welcome - what do you find adequate for your M17 auxiliary motor needs?
thanks, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
IMO the best motor is a 4HP ... but these days the 4HP motors are really depowered 5 or 6 HP motors (the last 'true 4HP motor was made by Yamaha; sadly now a 6hp motor depowered to 4). for example: i have a Suzuki 4HP which is the same powerhead as the Suzuki 6HP. the major difference is the 4HP does not have an external tank option ... which is standard on the 6HP. so ... as you are 'carrying' the same weight (over 60# for the Suzuki 4/6 HP motors) if i was to buy a new motor i would get the larger in order to get the external tank. i know some folks have cruised in Puget Sound, San Juan and Gulf Islands with a short haft Yamaha 2.5HP. on the adjustable mount M17s the motor does cavitate in a sea or when you go forward to the bow. some folks use the Honda 2/2.3 HP long shaft for going in/out of harbor, though would be underpowered if the wind or sea came up. no external tank option on the little Hondas. a 3.5 Tohatsu long shaft may work well for most folks 95% of the time ... but no external fuel tank option. -- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 1:32 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
OK, changing the topic a bit based on this:
On 09/18/2015 11:59 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
...the 4HP Suzuki on my M17 is running at less than 50% to reach cruise speed.
So what is anyone's experience on what HP outboard is adequate for an M17?
Mine came with this nice, low hours Tohatsu 6hp sail pro model. It seems to me like overkill.
And, with Tohatsu at least, no point downgrading to their 5hp or 4hp because they are the same carcass, basically same size and weight.
Looking at Evinrude, Mercury, Suzuki, Honda...all making the same basic range of motors, same weight within a few pounds in HP class, etc.
The break point is under 4 hp, where the 2.5-3.5 hp units are significantly lighter and smaller.
Any experiences welcome - what do you find adequate for your M17 auxiliary motor needs?
thanks, John S.
I have a 5 hp 2 stroke on my M17 and anything over 1/2 throttle just buries the stern. (Yes, I could get a prop with less pitch, but I rarely use the motor so it hasn't been a priority). Based on that, I think 3.5 hp would be adequate. The only issue is sub-4 hp motors do not have a reverse gear. That may or may not be important to you. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 3:32:39 PM Subject: M_Boats: M17 motor requirements OK, changing the topic a bit based on this: On 09/18/2015 11:59 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
...the 4HP Suzuki on my M17 is running at less than 50% to reach cruise speed.
So what is anyone's experience on what HP outboard is adequate for an M17? Mine came with this nice, low hours Tohatsu 6hp sail pro model. It seems to me like overkill. And, with Tohatsu at least, no point downgrading to their 5hp or 4hp because they are the same carcass, basically same size and weight. Looking at Evinrude, Mercury, Suzuki, Honda...all making the same basic range of motors, same weight within a few pounds in HP class, etc. The break point is under 4 hp, where the 2.5-3.5 hp units are significantly lighter and smaller. Any experiences welcome - what do you find adequate for your M17 auxiliary motor needs? thanks, John S. -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I've always considered ob's a necessary inconvenience. I've used several sizes on both M17s and M15s. I've settled now on the Honda 2.3 for my M17 (I used the earlier 2hp version in the past). But I rarely use my ob. I used under one gallon of fuel last season. I'm lucky--I only use the ob to get in and out--and I sail in and out as frequently as I can (if I can do so w/out embarrassing myself). I have an older Suzuki 4 (remote tank) that served me well for several seasons that's retired to the barn nowadays. Seems 4 is perfectly adequate for most heavy service, although I prefer the 2.3 overall because of weight. All long shafts. t On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 1:38 PM, <swwheatley@comcast.net> wrote:
I have a 5 hp 2 stroke on my M17 and anything over 1/2 throttle just buries the stern. (Yes, I could get a prop with less pitch, but I rarely use the motor so it hasn't been a priority). Based on that, I think 3.5 hp would be adequate. The only issue is sub-4 hp motors do not have a reverse gear. That may or may not be important to you.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 3:32:39 PM Subject: M_Boats: M17 motor requirements
OK, changing the topic a bit based on this:
On 09/18/2015 11:59 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
...the 4HP Suzuki on my M17 is running at less than 50% to reach cruise speed.
So what is anyone's experience on what HP outboard is adequate for an M17?
Mine came with this nice, low hours Tohatsu 6hp sail pro model. It seems to me like overkill.
And, with Tohatsu at least, no point downgrading to their 5hp or 4hp because they are the same carcass, basically same size and weight.
Looking at Evinrude, Mercury, Suzuki, Honda...all making the same basic range of motors, same weight within a few pounds in HP class, etc.
The break point is under 4 hp, where the 2.5-3.5 hp units are significantly lighter and smaller.
Any experiences welcome - what do you find adequate for your M17 auxiliary motor needs?
thanks, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
The Honda 2 reverses by flipping the motor around. Not quite as convenient as a shift lever, but only takes a few seconds. Rick M17 #633 Lynne L On Friday, September 18, 2015, <swwheatley@comcast.net> wrote:
I have a 5 hp 2 stroke on my M17 and anything over 1/2 throttle just buries the stern. (Yes, I could get a prop with less pitch, but I rarely use the motor so it hasn't been a priority). Based on that, I think 3.5 hp would be adequate. The only issue is sub-4 hp motors do not have a reverse gear. That may or may not be important to you.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net <javascript:;>> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com <javascript:;>> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 3:32:39 PM Subject: M_Boats: M17 motor requirements
OK, changing the topic a bit based on this:
On 09/18/2015 11:59 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
...the 4HP Suzuki on my M17 is running at less than 50% to reach cruise speed.
So what is anyone's experience on what HP outboard is adequate for an M17?
Mine came with this nice, low hours Tohatsu 6hp sail pro model. It seems to me like overkill.
And, with Tohatsu at least, no point downgrading to their 5hp or 4hp because they are the same carcass, basically same size and weight.
Looking at Evinrude, Mercury, Suzuki, Honda...all making the same basic range of motors, same weight within a few pounds in HP class, etc.
The break point is under 4 hp, where the 2.5-3.5 hp units are significantly lighter and smaller.
Any experiences welcome - what do you find adequate for your M17 auxiliary motor needs?
thanks, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net <javascript:;> - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
The Honda 2 reverses by flipping the motor around
and with no shifter nor water pump two less things to fail ... had water pump and shifter fail on Suzuki 4HP. i find the centrifugal clutch on the Honda 2/2.3 to be more convenient as no need to reach over transom to shift into neutral, just go to idle and no thrust. -- :: Dave Scobie :: former M15 owner - www.freewebs.com/m15-named-scred :: M17 #375 SWEET PEA - www.m17-375.webs.com On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> wrote:
The Honda 2 reverses by flipping the motor around. Not quite as convenient as a shift lever, but only takes a few seconds.
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
Can you flip an ob around for reverse if it sits in the cutout in the transom without the prop hitting the stern of the boat? On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> wrote:
The Honda 2 reverses by flipping the motor around. Not quite as convenient as a shift lever, but only takes a few seconds.
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Friday, September 18, 2015, <swwheatley@comcast.net> wrote:
I have a 5 hp 2 stroke on my M17 and anything over 1/2 throttle just buries the stern. (Yes, I could get a prop with less pitch, but I rarely use the motor so it hasn't been a priority). Based on that, I think 3.5 hp would be adequate. The only issue is sub-4 hp motors do not have a reverse gear. That may or may not be important to you.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net <javascript:;>> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com <javascript:;>> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 3:32:39 PM Subject: M_Boats: M17 motor requirements
OK, changing the topic a bit based on this:
On 09/18/2015 11:59 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
...the 4HP Suzuki on my M17 is running at less than 50% to reach cruise speed.
So what is anyone's experience on what HP outboard is adequate for an M17?
Mine came with this nice, low hours Tohatsu 6hp sail pro model. It seems to me like overkill.
And, with Tohatsu at least, no point downgrading to their 5hp or 4hp because they are the same carcass, basically same size and weight.
Looking at Evinrude, Mercury, Suzuki, Honda...all making the same basic range of motors, same weight within a few pounds in HP class, etc.
The break point is under 4 hp, where the 2.5-3.5 hp units are significantly lighter and smaller.
Any experiences welcome - what do you find adequate for your M17 auxiliary motor needs?
thanks, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net <javascript:;> - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Spirit rocks a 4hp Mercury that rarely gets run at over half-throttle. For the minimalist my guess is that the 2hp Honda is enough. My issue is that if you sail in places like San Francisco Bay and coastal Pacific you might run into windless situations where 1) you’ll want enough power to push you against the occasional 4+ knot current and 2) you’ll want to hook up an external tank to give you plenty of range so you don’t have to refuel by hand in the middle of the aforementioned 4+ knot current. Of course, it’s always more seamanlike (and fun) to just hang out and wait for the tide to ease up. I guess 4hp motors are for guys like me who have to be at work Monday morning. - Jim M-17 “Spirit" On Sep 19, 2015, at 3:16 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Can you flip an ob around for reverse if it sits in the cutout in the transom without the prop hitting the stern of the boat?
On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> wrote:
The Honda 2 reverses by flipping the motor around. Not quite as convenient as a shift lever, but only takes a few seconds.
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Friday, September 18, 2015, <swwheatley@comcast.net> wrote:
I have a 5 hp 2 stroke on my M17 and anything over 1/2 throttle just buries the stern. (Yes, I could get a prop with less pitch, but I rarely use the motor so it hasn't been a priority). Based on that, I think 3.5 hp would be adequate. The only issue is sub-4 hp motors do not have a reverse gear. That may or may not be important to you.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net <javascript:;>> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com <javascript:;>> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 3:32:39 PM Subject: M_Boats: M17 motor requirements
OK, changing the topic a bit based on this:
On 09/18/2015 11:59 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
...the 4HP Suzuki on my M17 is running at less than 50% to reach cruise speed.
So what is anyone's experience on what HP outboard is adequate for an M17?
Mine came with this nice, low hours Tohatsu 6hp sail pro model. It seems to me like overkill.
And, with Tohatsu at least, no point downgrading to their 5hp or 4hp because they are the same carcass, basically same size and weight.
Looking at Evinrude, Mercury, Suzuki, Honda...all making the same basic range of motors, same weight within a few pounds in HP class, etc.
The break point is under 4 hp, where the 2.5-3.5 hp units are significantly lighter and smaller.
Any experiences welcome - what do you find adequate for your M17 auxiliary motor needs?
thanks, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net <javascript:;> - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
On 9/22/2015 12:38 PM, James Poulakis wrote: Jim, I had two solutions to refueling my 2 HP HONDA. -1 I used 1 quart oil containers. They are small; store easily; are easy to pour; and you have no spills when you are refilling the tank in fairly smooth water. -2 I had a spare remote fuel container. Use an outboard tank hose with a bulb pump in the middle. One end of the hose is in the fuel container; the other in the HONDA fuel tank. You squeeze the bulb, and can very nicely control fuel flow and fuel amount in the tank - i.e., no spillage. Connie
Spirit rocks a 4hp Mercury that rarely gets run at over half-throttle. For the minimalist my guess is that the 2hp Honda is enough. My issue is that if you sail in places like San Francisco Bay and coastal Pacific you might run into windless situations where 1) youÂ’ll want enough power to push you against the occasional 4+ knot current and 2) youÂ’ll want to hook up an external tank to give you plenty of range so you donÂ’t have to refuel by hand in the middle of the aforementioned 4+ knot current. Of course, itÂ’s always more seamanlike (and fun) to just hang out and wait for the tide to ease up. I guess 4hp motors are for guys like me who have to be at work Monday morning.
- Jim M-17 “Spirit"
On Sep 19, 2015, at 3:16 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Can you flip an ob around for reverse if it sits in the cutout in the transom without the prop hitting the stern of the boat?
On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> wrote:
The Honda 2 reverses by flipping the motor around. Not quite as convenient as a shift lever, but only takes a few seconds.
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Friday, September 18, 2015, <swwheatley@comcast.net> wrote:
I have a 5 hp 2 stroke on my M17 and anything over 1/2 throttle just buries the stern. (Yes, I could get a prop with less pitch, but I rarely use the motor so it hasn't been a priority). Based on that, I think 3.5 hp would be adequate. The only issue is sub-4 hp motors do not have a reverse gear. That may or may not be important to you.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net <javascript:;>> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com <javascript:;>> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 3:32:39 PM Subject: M_Boats: M17 motor requirements
OK, changing the topic a bit based on this:
On 09/18/2015 11:59 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
...the 4HP Suzuki on my M17 is running at less than 50% to reach cruise speed. So what is anyone's experience on what HP outboard is adequate for an M17? Mine came with this nice, low hours Tohatsu 6hp sail pro model. It seems to me like overkill.
And, with Tohatsu at least, no point downgrading to their 5hp or 4hp because they are the same carcass, basically same size and weight.
Looking at Evinrude, Mercury, Suzuki, Honda...all making the same basic range of motors, same weight within a few pounds in HP class, etc.
The break point is under 4 hp, where the 2.5-3.5 hp units are significantly lighter and smaller.
Any experiences welcome - what do you find adequate for your M17 auxiliary motor needs?
thanks, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net <javascript:;> - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Connie, Did you ever have leaking issues with the 1 quart oil containers? I would be concerned that they aren't designed to hold high pressure, and if the bottle gets hot in the sun the vapor pressure would burst them, or push the cap off. I have been looking at using MSR 30 oz backpacking fuel bottles, which are designed to be high-pressure leakproof fuel containers- but they are quite expensive. I currently own one, but would like 4 or more for a long cruise. I do like the idea of small fuel containers that can fit in an M15 cockpit locker, so that they don't have any risk of leaking into the cabin. MSR fuel bottle link: http://www.cascadedesigns.com/msr/stoves/stove-accessories/msr-fuel-bottles/... Tyler ----- Original Message ----- From: "Conbert Benneck" <chbenneck@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 12:07:05 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 motor requirements On 9/22/2015 12:38 PM, James Poulakis wrote: Jim, I had two solutions to refueling my 2 HP HONDA. -1 I used 1 quart oil containers. They are small; store easily; are easy to pour; and you have no spills when you are refilling the tank in fairly smooth water. -2 I had a spare remote fuel container. Use an outboard tank hose with a bulb pump in the middle. One end of the hose is in the fuel container; the other in the HONDA fuel tank. You squeeze the bulb, and can very nicely control fuel flow and fuel amount in the tank - i.e., no spillage. Connie
On 9/22/2015 2:15 PM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote: Tyler, The containers I used were empty 1 quart (1 liter) regular engine oil containers. They had a good screw cap, and I never had any leakage problem . Of course, they were stowed in the bottom of the sail locker, so that they stayed relatively cool, and they were not subject to hot sunshine that might boil the contents. If you wanted to store your reserve gasoline on deck, that would certainly give you vapor pressure problems; sealed container; no safety valve to relieve pressure.... Ouch! My larger fuel container was a one gallon container, with the outboard fuel line with the bulb pump that also resided in the sail locker. As long as you don't put the fuel containers out in the sun where pressure can build up in the container, I think that approach is workable. It is learning to live with the devil you have and be safe about it. In Europe everyone with a boat had a diesel engine, and many used propane for stove fuel. When they heard that we had a gasoline engine on board, they were horrified; gasoline, how dangerous .... When I asked but what about your propane stove and the dangers of leaking propane waiting for a spark to go BOOM....? they just shrugged their shoulders. So, they live with their devil - propane; and we lived with our gasoline engine and fuel and cooked with alcohol; our devil. Ciao, Connie
Connie,
Did you ever have leaking issues with the 1 quart oil containers? I would be concerned that they aren't designed to hold high pressure, and if the bottle gets hot in the sun the vapor pressure would burst them, or push the cap off.
I have been looking at using MSR 30 oz backpacking fuel bottles, which are designed to be high-pressure leakproof fuel containers- but they are quite expensive. I currently own one, but would like 4 or more for a long cruise.
I do like the idea of small fuel containers that can fit in an M15 cockpit locker, so that they don't have any risk of leaking into the cabin.
MSR fuel bottle link: http://www.cascadedesigns.com/msr/stoves/stove-accessories/msr-fuel-bottles/...
Tyler
----- Original Message ----- From: "Conbert Benneck" <chbenneck@gmail.com> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 12:07:05 PM Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 motor requirements
On 9/22/2015 12:38 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
Jim,
I had two solutions to refueling my 2 HP HONDA.
-1 I used 1 quart oil containers. They are small; store easily; are easy to pour; and you have no spills when you are refilling the tank in fairly smooth water.
-2 I had a spare remote fuel container. Use an outboard tank hose with a bulb pump in the middle. One end of the hose is in the fuel container; the other in the HONDA fuel tank. You squeeze the bulb, and can very nicely control fuel flow and fuel amount in the tank - i.e., no spillage.
Connie
I saw this listing, I have no affiliation with it: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/boa/5232305194.html Tyler
FWIW this boat has been for sale for a month or more. I saw it listed a month ago shortly after a previous listing went up, and asked if everything was included/was anything missing, and was the CB working or stuck, and was the trailer drive-away ready. Response was: "Hi John, It has everything but the motor. Centerboard works great I have someone scheduled to see it tomorrow Thanks for your interest." At the time the asking price was $2900. So a month later it's still for sale and $400 cheaper. Seems odd compared to similar vintage M15's at much higher prices selling in a couple weeks or less. It could be a great deal that somehow no one has snapped up...looks good in the pictures...or there could be something that's a deal-breaker for all interested parties so far. cheers, John S. On 09/22/2015 03:27 PM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
I saw this listing, I have no affiliation with it:
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/boa/5232305194.html
Tyler
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Nice looking boat although in my boat buying career I have learned that boats usually photograph very well and show something else. So much fun sitting there on a trailer. On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 11:25 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
FWIW this boat has been for sale for a month or more. I saw it listed a month ago shortly after a previous listing went up, and asked if everything was included/was anything missing, and was the CB working or stuck, and was the trailer drive-away ready. Response was:
"Hi John, It has everything but the motor. Centerboard works great I have someone scheduled to see it tomorrow Thanks for your interest."
At the time the asking price was $2900. So a month later it's still for sale and $400 cheaper. Seems odd compared to similar vintage M15's at much higher prices selling in a couple weeks or less. It could be a great deal that somehow no one has snapped up...looks good in the pictures...or there could be something that's a deal-breaker for all interested parties so far.
cheers, John S.
On 09/22/2015 03:27 PM, casioqv@usermail.com wrote:
I saw this listing, I have no affiliation with it:
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/boa/5232305194.html
Tyler
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Clever stuff... There's also purpose-made items like this: http://www.tuffjug.com/ (A UK product but similar no doubt available in USA) Most are made for other small engine users (motorbikes, jet skis, quad-bikes, etc. where there's also a need to fill a small tank quickly and cleanly). cheers, John S. On 09/22/2015 12:07 PM, Conbert Benneck wrote:
On 9/22/2015 12:38 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
Jim,
I had two solutions to refueling my 2 HP HONDA.
-1 I used 1 quart oil containers. They are small; store easily; are easy to pour; and you have no spills when you are refilling the tank in fairly smooth water.
-2 I had a spare remote fuel container. Use an outboard tank hose with a bulb pump in the middle. One end of the hose is in the fuel container; the other in the HONDA fuel tank. You squeeze the bulb, and can very nicely control fuel flow and fuel amount in the tank - i.e., no spillage.
Connie
Spirit rocks a 4hp Mercury that rarely gets run at over half-throttle. For the minimalist my guess is that the 2hp Honda is enough. My issue is that if you sail in places like San Francisco Bay and coastal Pacific you might run into windless situations where 1) you’ll want enough power to push you against the occasional 4+ knot current and 2) you’ll want to hook up an external tank to give you plenty of range so you don’t have to refuel by hand in the middle of the aforementioned 4+ knot current. Of course, it’s always more seamanlike (and fun) to just hang out and wait for the tide to ease up. I guess 4hp motors are for guys like me who have to be at work Monday morning.
- Jim M-17 “Spirit"
On Sep 19, 2015, at 3:16 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Can you flip an ob around for reverse if it sits in the cutout in the transom without the prop hitting the stern of the boat?
On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> wrote:
The Honda 2 reverses by flipping the motor around. Not quite as convenient as a shift lever, but only takes a few seconds.
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Friday, September 18, 2015, <swwheatley@comcast.net> wrote:
I have a 5 hp 2 stroke on my M17 and anything over 1/2 throttle just buries the stern. (Yes, I could get a prop with less pitch, but I rarely use the motor so it hasn't been a priority). Based on that, I think 3.5 hp would be adequate. The only issue is sub-4 hp motors do not have a reverse gear. That may or may not be important to you.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net <javascript:;>> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com <javascript:;>> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 3:32:39 PM Subject: M_Boats: M17 motor requirements
OK, changing the topic a bit based on this:
On 09/18/2015 11:59 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
...the 4HP Suzuki on my M17 is running at less than 50% to reach cruise speed. So what is anyone's experience on what HP outboard is adequate for an M17? Mine came with this nice, low hours Tohatsu 6hp sail pro model. It seems to me like overkill.
And, with Tohatsu at least, no point downgrading to their 5hp or 4hp because they are the same carcass, basically same size and weight.
Looking at Evinrude, Mercury, Suzuki, Honda...all making the same basic range of motors, same weight within a few pounds in HP class, etc.
The break point is under 4 hp, where the 2.5-3.5 hp units are significantly lighter and smaller.
Any experiences welcome - what do you find adequate for your M17 auxiliary motor needs?
thanks, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net <javascript:;> - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Those "Tuff Jugs" are neat!. Just the thing for motoring across the Atlantic in a 17' On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 2:51 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
Clever stuff... There's also purpose-made items like this: http://www.tuffjug.com/ (A UK product but similar no doubt available in USA) Most are made for other small engine users (motorbikes, jet skis, quad-bikes, etc. where there's also a need to fill a small tank quickly and cleanly).
cheers, John S.
On 09/22/2015 12:07 PM, Conbert Benneck wrote:
On 9/22/2015 12:38 PM, James Poulakis wrote:
Jim,
I had two solutions to refueling my 2 HP HONDA.
-1 I used 1 quart oil containers. They are small; store easily; are easy to pour; and you have no spills when you are refilling the tank in fairly smooth water.
-2 I had a spare remote fuel container. Use an outboard tank hose with a bulb pump in the middle. One end of the hose is in the fuel container; the other in the HONDA fuel tank. You squeeze the bulb, and can very nicely control fuel flow and fuel amount in the tank - i.e., no spillage.
Connie
Spirit rocks a 4hp Mercury that rarely gets run at over half-throttle. For the minimalist my guess is that the 2hp Honda is enough. My issue is that if you sail in places like San Francisco Bay and coastal Pacific you might run into windless situations where 1) you’ll want enough power to push you against the occasional 4+ knot current and 2) you’ll want to hook up an external tank to give you plenty of range so you don’t have to refuel by hand in the middle of the aforementioned 4+ knot current. Of course, it’s always more seamanlike (and fun) to just hang out and wait for the tide to ease up. I guess 4hp motors are for guys like me who have to be at work Monday morning.
- Jim M-17 “Spirit"
On Sep 19, 2015, at 3:16 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Can you flip an ob around for reverse if it sits in the cutout in the
transom without the prop hitting the stern of the boat?
On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> wrote:
The Honda 2 reverses by flipping the motor around. Not quite as
convenient as a shift lever, but only takes a few seconds.
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Friday, September 18, 2015, <swwheatley@comcast.net> wrote:
I have a 5 hp 2 stroke on my M17 and anything over 1/2 throttle just
buries the stern. (Yes, I could get a prop with less pitch, but I rarely use the motor so it hasn't been a priority). Based on that, I think 3.5
hp
would be adequate. The only issue is sub-4 hp motors do not have a
reverse
gear. That may or may not be important to you.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net <javascript:;>> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com <javascript:;>> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 3:32:39 PM Subject: M_Boats: M17 motor requirements
OK, changing the topic a bit based on this:
On 09/18/2015 11:59 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
> ...the 4HP Suzuki on my M17 is running at less than > 50% to reach cruise speed. > So what is anyone's experience on what HP outboard is adequate for an
M17?
Mine came with this nice, low hours Tohatsu 6hp sail pro model. It seems to me like overkill.
And, with Tohatsu at least, no point downgrading to their 5hp or 4hp because they are the same carcass, basically same size and weight.
Looking at Evinrude, Mercury, Suzuki, Honda...all making the same basic range of motors, same weight within a few pounds in HP class, etc.
The break point is under 4 hp, where the 2.5-3.5 hp units are significantly lighter and smaller.
Any experiences welcome - what do you find adequate for your M17 auxiliary motor needs?
thanks, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net <javascript:;> - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I've got a new Mercury 3.5 4 stroke in the transom cut-out in my 17 flush deck that has no reverse gear and will not come close to rotating around to get sternway. I have two paddles on board for that. The engine only turns a few degrees before some part of it contacts the sides of the motor well. The engine also has to sit as for from the rudder as possible to port in the cut-out to allow the rudder to turn (tiller to starboard) without hitting the engine case or the prop hitting the board! It still will not turn fully in that direction. I haven't sailed the boat enough to determine how much of a liability that's going to be. I've only had it out once since the restoration and there were several little things that need to be tweaked that you can't know til the shakedown cruise :) 2 Strokes back in the day must have had a significantly smaller motor head. On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 6:16 AM, Thomas Buzzi <thomaspbuzzi@gmail.com> wrote:
Can you flip an ob around for reverse if it sits in the cutout in the transom without the prop hitting the stern of the boat?
On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Rick Davies <jdavies104@gmail.com> wrote:
The Honda 2 reverses by flipping the motor around. Not quite as convenient as a shift lever, but only takes a few seconds.
Rick M17 #633 Lynne L
On Friday, September 18, 2015, <swwheatley@comcast.net> wrote:
I have a 5 hp 2 stroke on my M17 and anything over 1/2 throttle just buries the stern. (Yes, I could get a prop with less pitch, but I rarely use the motor so it hasn't been a priority). Based on that, I think 3.5 hp would be adequate. The only issue is sub-4 hp motors do not have a reverse gear. That may or may not be important to you.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net <javascript:;>> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" < montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com <javascript:;>> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 3:32:39 PM Subject: M_Boats: M17 motor requirements
OK, changing the topic a bit based on this:
On 09/18/2015 11:59 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
...the 4HP Suzuki on my M17 is running at less than 50% to reach cruise speed.
So what is anyone's experience on what HP outboard is adequate for an M17?
Mine came with this nice, low hours Tohatsu 6hp sail pro model. It seems to me like overkill.
And, with Tohatsu at least, no point downgrading to their 5hp or 4hp because they are the same carcass, basically same size and weight.
Looking at Evinrude, Mercury, Suzuki, Honda...all making the same basic range of motors, same weight within a few pounds in HP class, etc.
The break point is under 4 hp, where the 2.5-3.5 hp units are significantly lighter and smaller.
Any experiences welcome - what do you find adequate for your M17 auxiliary motor needs?
thanks, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net <javascript:;> - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
I have used a 3.5 Tohatsu on a previous M15 and M17 and currently Sparrow 16,,,, ALL loaded with gear and crew. Still have the "same" motor and it has done quite well for me. Galveston Bay, Matagora Bay, Espirit Bay, and many miles of the ICW on the coast of Texas, as well as a few BIG lakes,,,, Sam Rayburn and Toledo Bend.... Very reliable and plenty of power. Bill Tosh www.tcboats.com Henderson, TX. -----Original Message----- From: montgomery_boats [mailto:montgomery_boats-bounces@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of swwheatley@comcast.net Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 3:38 PM To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 motor requirements I have a 5 hp 2 stroke on my M17 and anything over 1/2 throttle just buries the stern. (Yes, I could get a prop with less pitch, but I rarely use the motor so it hasn't been a priority). Based on that, I think 3.5 hp would be adequate. The only issue is sub-4 hp motors do not have a reverse gear. That may or may not be important to you. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Schinnerer" <john@eco-living.net> To: "For and about Montgomery Sailboats" <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 3:32:39 PM Subject: M_Boats: M17 motor requirements OK, changing the topic a bit based on this: On 09/18/2015 11:59 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
...the 4HP Suzuki on my M17 is running at less than 50% to reach cruise speed.
So what is anyone's experience on what HP outboard is adequate for an M17? Mine came with this nice, low hours Tohatsu 6hp sail pro model. It seems to me like overkill. And, with Tohatsu at least, no point downgrading to their 5hp or 4hp because they are the same carcass, basically same size and weight. Looking at Evinrude, Mercury, Suzuki, Honda...all making the same basic range of motors, same weight within a few pounds in HP class, etc. The break point is under 4 hp, where the 2.5-3.5 hp units are significantly lighter and smaller. Any experiences welcome - what do you find adequate for your M17 auxiliary motor needs? thanks, John S. -- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
John, I think motor size selection is somewhat dependant on where you sail... I have a mercury 6 hp that came with my M17. At first I thought it was perhaps a bit larger than necessary. However after a couple of years sailing Serenity up here in BC, I have been glad to have the extra heft it provides when dealing with rip currents etc. I have yet to be significantly northward up the inside passage with Serenity but given my experiences so far I suspect I will be happy to have the extra hp. On another note the 6hp doesn't require me to run the engine very hard at all to reach close to hull speed which I think makes it easier on the motor when it is run for an extended period of time. I also really like having an external tank. So given my admittedly limited 2 years of M17experience, if I had to buy a new motor now I would probably get a 5 or 6hp. And more likely a 6hp in order to get an alternator to augment my solar panel. That said my selection is I think largely driven by where I sail. If I was on Lake Pleasant in AZ, or say Christina Lake here in BC, I think 3- 4 Hp would do probably do nicely. Cheers, Keith *Keith R. Martin, P.Eng.* *Burnaby, B.C. CanadaSerenity,** M17 Hull #353* On 18 September 2015 at 12:32, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
OK, changing the topic a bit based on this:
On 09/18/2015 11:59 AM, Dave Scobie wrote:
...the 4HP Suzuki on my M17 is running at less than 50% to reach cruise speed.
So what is anyone's experience on what HP outboard is adequate for an M17?
Mine came with this nice, low hours Tohatsu 6hp sail pro model. It seems to me like overkill.
And, with Tohatsu at least, no point downgrading to their 5hp or 4hp because they are the same carcass, basically same size and weight.
Looking at Evinrude, Mercury, Suzuki, Honda...all making the same basic range of motors, same weight within a few pounds in HP class, etc.
The break point is under 4 hp, where the 2.5-3.5 hp units are significantly lighter and smaller.
Any experiences welcome - what do you find adequate for your M17 auxiliary motor needs?
thanks, John S.
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Yeah, John, I thought long and hard about that alternator, the extra money and then having to run those wires back to the battery in the boat and decided that leaving the charger plugged in at the driveway or occassionally at the slip if I float the boat would be just as easy. It is available only on the 6 hp model. All their models are the same from 6 on down thru 4 with just a change in carb jets to make the difference in hp. fair winds, Tom B On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 1:30 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
The Tohatsu web site shows the alternator as an option on the 5hp and 4hp. As far as I can tell it's the same exact motor, with reduced hp for the 5 and 4. Same castings and housing etc., but the alternator is not standard except on the sail pro 6hp model.
If you can add it on for a reasonable cost it could be worth it. It will actually put some juice in your battery if you are motoring for a few hours here and there.
In the same timeframe you will get nothing much from solar panels you can fit on a boat our size, unless you cover your topsides with amorphous thin-film photovoltaic material (theoretically possible these days, but doesn't work well as non-skid decking... :-).
cheers, John S.
On 09/18/2015 10:16 AM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Hi John, I have the standard 20" long shaft. I believe the "Sailpro" comes as a 6 hp only. Also the alternator is available only on the 6. I believe I will investigate solar for trickle charging. Tom B. Monty 17 #258.1977
On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 11:42 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
The standard model (20" shaft) or the "sail pro" (25")?
I have the 6 hp sail pro, which from the specs is the same engine as the 5hp and 4hp, just with less hp (same weight, same displacement engine, same gear ratio, etc.).
cheers, John S.
On 09/18/2015 09:16 AM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Just bought a long shaft Tohatsu. The book that came with it states the
cavitation plate should be one inch below the bottom of the boat. Hope that works out with Jerry's designed ob cutout.
On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Jerry is having email problems so i'm sending this for him -
I tooled the original M17's transom cutout for a 4HP (a 2-cycle Johnson) long shaft outboard.
-- Jerry Montgomery
On 09/14/2015 10:24 AM, GILASAILR--- via montgomery_boats wrote:
> The mount was a frequent response to the lack of room in the cutout
for
the shifter/throttle/tiller arm and some motors did not have enof room > > to
rotate for 'reverse' operation - I installed a tiny fixed mount at the
> same > height as the cut-out and use a 20" 4hp Evinrude Yachtwin (no > reverse) > > -
luckily solved all problems and adds minimum weight.
> > GO > >
--
John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
Fair enough! If the boat is close to the grid often enough and battery will not get trashed by draw down from extended cruises without recharge, it's certainly simpler to just plug it in whenever it's handy. Speaking of which I need to go pull the battery out of Pajarita and get it charging and desulfating, it's flat from sitting a long time. cheers, John S. On 09/19/2015 02:55 AM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Yeah, John, I thought long and hard about that alternator, the extra money and then having to run those wires back to the battery in the boat and decided that leaving the charger plugged in at the driveway or occassionally at the slip if I float the boat would be just as easy. It is available only on the 6 hp model. All their models are the same from 6 on down thru 4 with just a change in carb jets to make the difference in hp.
fair winds, Tom B
On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 1:30 PM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
The Tohatsu web site shows the alternator as an option on the 5hp and 4hp. As far as I can tell it's the same exact motor, with reduced hp for the 5 and 4. Same castings and housing etc., but the alternator is not standard except on the sail pro 6hp model.
If you can add it on for a reasonable cost it could be worth it. It will actually put some juice in your battery if you are motoring for a few hours here and there.
In the same timeframe you will get nothing much from solar panels you can fit on a boat our size, unless you cover your topsides with amorphous thin-film photovoltaic material (theoretically possible these days, but doesn't work well as non-skid decking... :-).
cheers, John S.
On 09/18/2015 10:16 AM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Hi John, I have the standard 20" long shaft. I believe the "Sailpro" comes as a 6 hp only. Also the alternator is available only on the 6. I believe I will investigate solar for trickle charging. Tom B. Monty 17 #258.1977
On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 11:42 AM, John Schinnerer <john@eco-living.net> wrote:
The standard model (20" shaft) or the "sail pro" (25")?
I have the 6 hp sail pro, which from the specs is the same engine as the 5hp and 4hp, just with less hp (same weight, same displacement engine, same gear ratio, etc.).
cheers, John S.
On 09/18/2015 09:16 AM, Thomas Buzzi wrote:
Just bought a long shaft Tohatsu. The book that came with it states the
cavitation plate should be one inch below the bottom of the boat. Hope that works out with Jerry's designed ob cutout.
On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 10:47 AM, Dave Scobie <scoobscobie@gmail.com> wrote:
Jerry is having email problems so i'm sending this for him -
I tooled the original M17's transom cutout for a 4HP (a 2-cycle Johnson) long shaft outboard.
-- Jerry Montgomery
On 09/14/2015 10:24 AM, GILASAILR--- via montgomery_boats wrote:
> > > >> The mount was a frequent response to the lack of room in the cutout for
> > the shifter/throttle/tiller arm and some motors did not have enof room >> >> to >
rotate for 'reverse' operation - I installed a tiny fixed mount at the > >> same >> height as the cut-out and use a 20" 4hp Evinrude Yachtwin (no >> reverse) >> >> - >
luckily solved all problems and adds minimum weight. > >> >> GO >> >> > > > --
John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design
- Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
-- John Schinnerer - M.A., Whole Systems Design -------------------------------------------- - Eco-Living - Whole Systems Design Services People - Place - Learning - Integration john@eco-living.net - 510.982.1334 http://eco-living.net http://sociocracyconsulting.com
participants (13)
-
Bill Tosh -
casioqv＠usermail.com -
Conbert Benneck -
Dave Scobie -
GILASAILR＠aol.com -
James Poulakis -
John Schinnerer -
Keith R. Martin -
Rick Davies -
swwheatley＠comcast.net -
Thomas Buzzi -
Timothy JarviMD -
Tom Smith