Hello all, as I said earlier on, I acquired about 2 weeks ago "Hobbit", a 1982 M-17. After sailing her four times now, I would like some help in deciding on some things, and I would really appreciate people's opinion on the main question below. Sorry if this message is a bit longish. Until buying the M-17, I owned (and still own) a Compac 16. Originally I intended on selling the C-16, but now I have doubts. The trouble is that it seems that the C-16 fits for absolutely everything we need to do with it, while the M-17 is a bit more problematic (see below). But the C-16 doesn't sail well, and that is my biggest gripe with it... We are a family of four, myself, my wife, and two kids ages 6 and 4. As such, not too much time is available, and the kids are not the world's best example of patience (both of these may improve in the future). We sail mostly on the lakes in Madison, WI; they are inland lakes, the largest of which is about 5-6 miles across. I would hope that in the future we'll take some trips to the great lakes (Green Bay or Apostle Islands) but so far we haven't done this. With the Compac, the routine is fairly simple: the boat stays in a parking lot 1/4 mile from the launching ramp; I attach it to the car, drive to the ramp, rig by myself, launch. If the kids come with me, they play around while I rig. The whole routine takes about 25 minutes (so the kids don't get too bored). If this happens in the afternoon, all of us then sail for about 2-3 hours, and when we're done my wife takes the kids home and I de-rig by myself, another 25 minutes. If we start at 5pm, we're all home by around 9. With the Monty things are a bit more complicated. Admittedly I am not yet quite up to speed in rigging it, but today's example seems to be the norm. I arrived at the boat at 9:45am, rigged alone till 11, sailed until 2:15, derigged and put the boat away until 3:30. So I got 3 hours of sailing for two-and-a-half hours of rigging. Not a very good ratio in my opinion. The one time I took my wife and kids the rigging took just enough for the kids to get thoroughly bored and to start pestering us enough to get us angry :-( And the worst part of it is that after an hour of rigging, I am ready to go home and get in bed :-) I can see now a number of options to improve on this. Option one: keep the M-17 moored. Obviously that would reduce the rigging time to something very small. The cost of this is not negligible, though (I expect to pay around $800/summer for a mooring). However I have no experience with bottom paint, and the Monty's bottom has never been painted. (It is clean as it came from the factory.) How often does the bottom need painting? Every year, or can it be skipped a year or two? How big a hassle is this? Is it a pity to "dirty" the bottom of a clean Monty? Option two: keep the Monty with the mast up on the trailer, near a marina. This would be OK, except for the fact that the only marina that provides this service is on the other side of the lake, a 30 minute drive, and at the end of a long channel which takes 20 minuntes to motor through. And the cost is about the same, around $800-1000/ summer. Option three: create a fleet -- keep both boats. When in a hurry, sail the C-16, when time is not an issue or need more space, sail the Monty (space may or may not be so much of an issue on the C-16: we have sailed her with 4 adults, 5 kids, and a dog on board; we were a bit cramped, but we managed. The only time the Monty would be really better would be if I were to go camping with the kids; my wife swore that she would not sleep in any small sized boat.) Wife may not be too happy with this option Option four: sell both boats and get an M-15. The question is how much space there is on an M-15 versus the C-16? Would 4 adults sit comfortably in the cockpit of the M-15? It would really help if I could find someone with an M-15 somewhere in my general area (Madison, Wi), so I could look at it and perhaps sail together to get a feel for the boat. Option five: keep only the M-17, and hope to improve my rigging system. Right now I raise the mast with the system suggested on Bob's website (with a 4-part and a padeye on the mast support), which works great but still takes a lot of time. The rudder cannot stay on the boat (the rear mast support goes in its place), rolling the mast back is complicated by the spreaders, bending the mainsail on the boom is a pain, etc. Anyone has any special tricks to speed things up? Option six: keep only the C-16 (sad), and in a few years, when kids (and maybe wife?) are more patient, get another M-17. I am worried about the fact that I have read about quite a few people who after owning a Monty were never happy with anything else, so kept buying them. Since a good one is hard to find (and the one I have is good), I am not very inclined to become Monty-less. What do people who've seen more of all these kinds of boats think about all this? Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Andrei.
Would 4 adults sit comfortably in the cockpit of the M-15? andrei (and others): in my opinion four can sit and talk as long as all movement are well coordinated. the boat will not sail well as she will squat and sit bow HIGH. for day-sails the M15 will work for two adults and a small child (you must sail the M15 with the weight centered as close as possible over the centerboard ... i sit w/in one foot of the cabin when sailing). overnight the M15 is comfortable for two adults max sleeping on the boat. for me rigging the M15 is ~30-40 minutes if i do everything on the trailer; about 50-60 minutes if i launch and then rig. putting up the mast, setting the boom, sails, etc. in-water is a lot more work and slower. take-down is ~20-30 minutes using the trailer to haul out (ie, stick up coming out of the water); and 30-40 minutes when everything is done in-water. my rigging speed 'season start' is slower than 'season end'. my speed the first year with SCRED was 50-60% slower than what i can now accomplish. dave scobie M15 #288 - SCRED visit Scred's www-site: http://www-freewebs.com/m15-named-scred
Andrei: I can't imagine why it should take almost an hour longer to set up or take down a M-17 than a C-16. I suggest Option 5 and think rigging will go a lot faster once you're more familiar with your boat and create your own system and shortcuts. Come on over to Milwaukee and I'll show you my patented "Git 'Er Up" mast-raising system I made out of a snow rake. It's fast and works great. Gordon On Jul 10, 2008, at 10:49 PM, Andrei Caldararu wrote:
Hello all,
as I said earlier on, I acquired about 2 weeks ago "Hobbit", a 1982 M-17. After sailing her four times now, I would like some help in deciding on some things, and I would really appreciate people's opinion on the main question below. Sorry if this message is a bit longish.
Until buying the M-17, I owned (and still own) a Compac 16. Originally I intended on selling the C-16, but now I have doubts. The trouble is that it seems that the C-16 fits for absolutely everything we need to do with it, while the M-17 is a bit more problematic (see below). But the C-16 doesn't sail well, and that is my biggest gripe with it...
We are a family of four, myself, my wife, and two kids ages 6 and 4. As such, not too much time is available, and the kids are not the world's best example of patience (both of these may improve in the future). We sail mostly on the lakes in Madison, WI; they are inland lakes, the largest of which is about 5-6 miles across. I would hope that in the future we'll take some trips to the great lakes (Green Bay or Apostle Islands) but so far we haven't done this.
With the Compac, the routine is fairly simple: the boat stays in a parking lot 1/4 mile from the launching ramp; I attach it to the car, drive to the ramp, rig by myself, launch. If the kids come with me, they play around while I rig. The whole routine takes about 25 minutes (so the kids don't get too bored). If this happens in the afternoon, all of us then sail for about 2-3 hours, and when we're done my wife takes the kids home and I de-rig by myself, another 25 minutes. If we start at 5pm, we're all home by around 9.
With the Monty things are a bit more complicated. Admittedly I am not yet quite up to speed in rigging it, but today's example seems to be the norm. I arrived at the boat at 9:45am, rigged alone till 11, sailed until 2:15, derigged and put the boat away until 3:30. So I got 3 hours of sailing for two-and-a-half hours of rigging. Not a very good ratio in my opinion. The one time I took my wife and kids the rigging took just enough for the kids to get thoroughly bored and to start pestering us enough to get us angry :-( And the worst part of it is that after an hour of rigging, I am ready to go home and get in bed :-)
I can see now a number of options to improve on this.
Option one: keep the M-17 moored. Obviously that would reduce the rigging time to something very small. The cost of this is not negligible, though (I expect to pay around $800/summer for a mooring). However I have no experience with bottom paint, and the Monty's bottom has never been painted. (It is clean as it came from the factory.) How often does the bottom need painting? Every year, or can it be skipped a year or two? How big a hassle is this? Is it a pity to "dirty" the bottom of a clean Monty?
Option two: keep the Monty with the mast up on the trailer, near a marina. This would be OK, except for the fact that the only marina that provides this service is on the other side of the lake, a 30 minute drive, and at the end of a long channel which takes 20 minuntes to motor through. And the cost is about the same, around $800-1000/ summer.
Option three: create a fleet -- keep both boats. When in a hurry, sail the C-16, when time is not an issue or need more space, sail the Monty (space may or may not be so much of an issue on the C-16: we have sailed her with 4 adults, 5 kids, and a dog on board; we were a bit cramped, but we managed. The only time the Monty would be really better would be if I were to go camping with the kids; my wife swore that she would not sleep in any small sized boat.) Wife may not be too happy with this option
Option four: sell both boats and get an M-15. The question is how much space there is on an M-15 versus the C-16? Would 4 adults sit comfortably in the cockpit of the M-15? It would really help if I could find someone with an M-15 somewhere in my general area (Madison, Wi), so I could look at it and perhaps sail together to get a feel for the boat.
Option five: keep only the M-17, and hope to improve my rigging system. Right now I raise the mast with the system suggested on Bob's website (with a 4-part and a padeye on the mast support), which works great but still takes a lot of time. The rudder cannot stay on the boat (the rear mast support goes in its place), rolling the mast back is complicated by the spreaders, bending the mainsail on the boom is a pain, etc. Anyone has any special tricks to speed things up?
Option six: keep only the C-16 (sad), and in a few years, when kids (and maybe wife?) are more patient, get another M-17. I am worried about the fact that I have read about quite a few people who after owning a Monty were never happy with anything else, so kept buying them. Since a good one is hard to find (and the one I have is good), I am not very inclined to become Monty-less.
What do people who've seen more of all these kinds of boats think about all this? Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Andrei.
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Andrei, Been there, done that. In the early 70s, I had a rather impatient wife and three daughters from age 2 to 7 and a Balboa 20 (another earlier Lyle Hess design). Over the first few months of ownership, I reduced my rig-up time from one hour to 15 or 20 minutes. In the meantime, wife and kids would go "fishing". Part of the solution was practice and the rest was equipment. My next door neighbor was a retired Coast Guard Machinest and he designed and built a mast raising system for me. He welded up a tabrinacle that hinged above the boom allowing the boom to ramain in place with the mainsailsail furled and covered. He also made me a pair of "legs" that were notched to fit around the chainplates and tied together with a swivel at the other end. When the mast was down, it rested in a roller on the tabrinacle. All of the rigging was left attached except for the forestay and the mast and boom rested in a gallows frame. To raise the mast, you simply rolled it back (bungee cords kept the shrouds organized), replaced the roller with a hinge pin and put the "legs' in place (vertical), attached to the forestay and a rope going to the trailer winch hook. One then just winched the mast up about halfway, then pulled it up the rest of the way with the rope and attached the forestay. I used a lever type on the forestay to make it easier to attach. All I had to do then was remove the "legs" and launch. A sliding tongue extension made launching a breeze. I spent a couple of afternoons with the boat in my dirveway practicing untill I had it down to 15 minutes. In the meantime, the kids had done their "fishing" and sorting through the treasures they had found alonge the shoreline and the wife had stayed busy Ooooohing and Ahhhhing over the kids finds. Since we would have already loaded the ice chest and other gear at home, we were ready to start our day on the water. The cabin of "Molly Grubble" was always a mess with with children's books, coloring books, crayons, puzzles and other fun stuff but that was OK. My grown daughters have fond stories to tell my grandchildren about sailing trips all up and down the Southern California coast and a couple of trips to Catalina. After several years of big boats, Snipe class racing with the girls as crew, I was again sailing with only the wife. I had a "Slipper 17" on a trailer and I immediately rigged it like "Molly" and enjoyed several years trailering all over the Southwest and Gulf coast. After retiring to a lakefront house with my own boat dock in back, I have Griselda (M17 #14) moored there and don't need to worry about rigging up. With sail slugs and lazy jacks it is about 3 minutes to be sailing. I also have a Boston Whaler Harpoon 5.2 and guess what? It now has a tabrinacle and "easy rig" setup but it is for sale because I like sailing Griselda much better. Let me assure you that the wife and kids will not become more patient with age and that going back to the Compac after the Monty will be like trying to drink American Beer after living in Germany for 5 years. Ron M17 #14 Griselda
From: gordon@financialwriting.net> Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 06:20:02 -0500> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Subject: Re: M_Boats: First couple of outings> > Andrei:> I can't imagine why it should take almost an hour longer to set up or > take down a M-17 than a C-16. I suggest Option 5 and think rigging > will go a lot faster once you're more familiar with your boat and > create your own system and shortcuts. Come on over to Milwaukee and > I'll show you my patented "Git 'Er Up" mast-raising system I made out > of a snow rake. It's fast and works great.> > Gordon> > On Jul 10, 2008, at 10:49 PM, Andrei Caldararu wrote:> > > Hello all,> >> > as I said earlier on, I acquired about 2 weeks ago "Hobbit", a 1982> > M-17. After sailing her four times now, I would like some help in> > deciding on some things, and I would really appreciate people's> > opinion on the main question below. Sorry if this message is a bit> > longish.> >> > Until buying the M-17, I owned (and still own) a Compac 16. Originally> > I intended on selling the C-16, but now I have doubts. The trouble is> > that it seems that the C-16 fits for absolutely everything we need to> > do with it, while the M-17 is a bit more problematic (see below). But> > the C-16 doesn't sail well, and that is my biggest gripe with it...> >> > We are a family of four, myself, my wife, and two kids ages 6 and 4.> > As such, not too much time is available, and the kids are not the> > world's best example of patience (both of these may improve in the> > future). We sail mostly on the lakes in Madison, WI; they are inland> > lakes, the largest of which is about 5-6 miles across. I would hope> > that in the future we'll take some trips to the great lakes (Green Bay> > or Apostle Islands) but so far we haven't done this.> >> > With the Compac, the routine is fairly simple: the boat stays in a> > parking lot 1/4 mile from the launching ramp; I attach it to the car,> > drive to the ramp, rig by myself, launch. If the kids come with me,> > they play around while I rig. The whole routine takes about 25 minutes> > (so the kids don't get too bored). If this happens in the afternoon,> > all of us then sail for about 2-3 hours, and when we're done my wife> > takes the kids home and I de-rig by myself, another 25 minutes. If we> > start at 5pm, we're all home by around 9.> >> > With the Monty things are a bit more complicated. Admittedly I am not> > yet quite up to speed in rigging it, but today's example seems to be> > the norm. I arrived at the boat at 9:45am, rigged alone till 11,> > sailed until 2:15, derigged and put the boat away until 3:30. So I got> > 3 hours of sailing for two-and-a-half hours of rigging. Not a very> > good ratio in my opinion. The one time I took my wife and kids the> > rigging took just enough for the kids to get thoroughly bored and to> > start pestering us enough to get us angry :-( And the worst part of it> > is that after an hour of rigging, I am ready to go home and get in> > bed :-)> >> > I can see now a number of options to improve on this.> >> > Option one: keep the M-17 moored. Obviously that would reduce the> > rigging time to something very small. The cost of this is not> > negligible, though (I expect to pay around $800/summer for a mooring).> > However I have no experience with bottom paint, and the Monty's bottom> > has never been painted. (It is clean as it came from the factory.) How> > often does the bottom need painting? Every year, or can it be skipped> > a year or two? How big a hassle is this? Is it a pity to "dirty" the> > bottom of a clean Monty?> >> > Option two: keep the Monty with the mast up on the trailer, near a> > marina. This would be OK, except for the fact that the only marina> > that provides this service is on the other side of the lake, a 30> > minute drive, and at the end of a long channel which takes 20 minuntes> > to motor through. And the cost is about the same, around $800-1000/> > summer.> >> > Option three: create a fleet -- keep both boats. When in a hurry, sail> > the C-16, when time is not an issue or need more space, sail the Monty> > (space may or may not be so much of an issue on the C-16: we have> > sailed her with 4 adults, 5 kids, and a dog on board; we were a bit> > cramped, but we managed. The only time the Monty would be really> > better would be if I were to go camping with the kids; my wife swore> > that she would not sleep in any small sized boat.) Wife may not be too> > happy with this option> >> > Option four: sell both boats and get an M-15. The question is how much> > space there is on an M-15 versus the C-16? Would 4 adults sit> > comfortably in the cockpit of the M-15? It would really help if I> > could find someone with an M-15 somewhere in my general area (Madison,> > Wi), so I could look at it and perhaps sail together to get a feel for> > the boat.> >> > Option five: keep only the M-17, and hope to improve my rigging> > system. Right now I raise the mast with the system suggested on Bob's> > website (with a 4-part and a padeye on the mast support), which works> > great but still takes a lot of time. The rudder cannot stay on the> > boat (the rear mast support goes in its place), rolling the mast back> > is complicated by the spreaders, bending the mainsail on the boom is a> > pain, etc. Anyone has any special tricks to speed things up?> >> > Option six: keep only the C-16 (sad), and in a few years, when kids> > (and maybe wife?) are more patient, get another M-17. I am worried> > about the fact that I have read about quite a few people who after> > owning a Monty were never happy with anything else, so kept buying> > them. Since a good one is hard to find (and the one I have is good), I> > am not very inclined to become Monty-less.> >> > What do people who've seen more of all these kinds of boats think> > about all this? Any help will be greatly appreciated.> >> > Thanks,> >> > Andrei.> >> > _______________________________________________> > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats> > > _______________________________________________> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
It’s a talkathon – but it’s not just talk. http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_JustTalk
"Let me assure you that the wife and kids will not become more patient with age and that going back to the Compac after the Monty will be like trying to drink American Beer after living in Germany for 5 years." Well said. Hehehehe......
Hi Tim, Let me second your remarks. Having bought a derelict a C-16, as a solution mast stepping problems on a Bolger MICRO, it didn't take very long, after I had rebuilt it, and put it in the water, to become disillusioned. No sail lockers... Where do you put all the "stuff" that you need on a boat? ... on the berths? Berths under the cockpit seats.... leaving a totally unusable major area of the boat. On a broad reach it sailed nicely, but start heading into a close reach or hard on the wind and it made as much leeway as it did headway.. That's when I found the M15, a real boat, and dumped the C16, the toy boat, as fast as I could. I've been a very happy sailor ever since. Connie Tim Diebert wrote:
"Let me assure you that the wife and kids will not become more patient with age and that going back to the Compac after the Monty will be like trying to drink American Beer after living in Germany for 5 years."
Well said. Hehehehe......
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....for some ADD reason I didn't read the whole email. DOAH!! Just a couple of additional comments: My boat also came to me with bare gel coat on the bottom....never did have antifouling. I LOVE this aspect of my boat. But I mainly sail big lakes. Even when I do the coast, I will leave it alone and just clean it well when I get her out. Having said that, if it is a maintained mooring and can be trusted, that would be the option I would recommend. The price seems high-ish, but can make for more sailing with less rig and launch trials. I use a gin pole to raise the mast. Not a time saver but it is a bit more relaxing when by yourself. Rather than bending the sail each time, I do a nice harbour furl on the boom. Then wrap it well with the sail cover. When De-rigging, take the sail and boom off as a unit. It fits nicely inside the boat. To rig, I clip the topping lift to the end of the boom, adjust, then just drop the gooseneck slider in place. That might save you a bit of time.
" But the C-16 doesn't sail well, and that is my biggest gripe with it..." I am a simple fella. Sounds like a no brainer to me. Life is far too short to spend any time in a shitty sail boat.... specially when you already have another boat that is a great sailer. Even though folks here suggest they get their 17 up licketty split, it takes me about 40 minutes. So I found a place where I can leave the boat fully rigged(on the trailer) and ready to launch as I need it. I am sure you will get a bit faster over time, but in the end it is a small detail. Have fun! Tim #369 PUFF (Had one of those freak summer thunder storms that hit 40 knots for about 10 minutes yesterday.....I saw several boat on the beach with their permanent mooring still attached to them. I was in a meeting and missed it all.....dang)
Hi Andrei, sorry to hear you are having some issues. I have made some similar calculations having had a C-16, M-15 and M-17 in that order. I also moved away from the C-16 because of the lack of pointing and slow sailing. The M-15 was not quite large enough for more than two of the boys to come along and I have four. My wife is not upset that she cannot come. I trailered the C-16 to the bay and the M-15 as well since I could keep them in my garage but moved to keeping the M-15 on the hard with the mast up and boom on. This was a much better solution and I should have been more clever and had a cover for the main so it could stay on. I keep my M-17 at a mooring because the launching, packing, washing etc was not fun and my kids (who are teens) and I were too tired out after hauling out. I now have started to single hand the M-17 since two of my crew are now overseas (one crewing in Sydney harbor, lucky sod!) and so having the boat in the water pretty much ready to go is a great option. I can offer a couple of thoughts. I would not be put off by bottom paint. However if you go this route have barrier coat put on before the bottom paint. Fresh water is more apt to find any areas on the hull that may blister and the barrier will help prevent this. Having done repairs and new bottom jobs on the CP-16 and M-17 I would strongly recommend hiring out the bottom work. Most marinas do this as a matter of course on larger boats and yes they do new anti fouling every year. Your mooring fees are pretty cheap compared to my area but I do not know your situation in terms of afford ability. I like having the boat in the water and the only draw back is the cash. But in my case with the boat an hour and a half drive away leaving my 5.7liter V-8 and taking my 2 liter 4 banger makes things more appealing with gas so pricey too! All the best, Robbin Andrei Caldararu wrote:
Hello all,
as I said earlier on, I acquired about 2 weeks ago "Hobbit", a 1982 M-17. After sailing her four times now, I would like some help in deciding on some things, and I would really appreciate people's opinion on the main question below. Sorry if this message is a bit longish.
Until buying the M-17, I owned (and still own) a Compac 16. Originally I intended on selling the C-16, but now I have doubts. The trouble is that it seems that the C-16 fits for absolutely everything we need to do with it, while the M-17 is a bit more problematic (see below). But the C-16 doesn't sail well, and that is my biggest gripe with it...
We are a family of four, myself, my wife, and two kids ages 6 and 4. As such, not too much time is available, and the kids are not the world's best example of patience (both of these may improve in the future). We sail mostly on the lakes in Madison, WI; they are inland lakes, the largest of which is about 5-6 miles across. I would hope that in the future we'll take some trips to the great lakes (Green Bay or Apostle Islands) but so far we haven't done this.
With the Compac, the routine is fairly simple: the boat stays in a parking lot 1/4 mile from the launching ramp; I attach it to the car, drive to the ramp, rig by myself, launch. If the kids come with me, they play around while I rig. The whole routine takes about 25 minutes (so the kids don't get too bored). If this happens in the afternoon, all of us then sail for about 2-3 hours, and when we're done my wife takes the kids home and I de-rig by myself, another 25 minutes. If we start at 5pm, we're all home by around 9.
With the Monty things are a bit more complicated. Admittedly I am not yet quite up to speed in rigging it, but today's example seems to be the norm. I arrived at the boat at 9:45am, rigged alone till 11, sailed until 2:15, derigged and put the boat away until 3:30. So I got 3 hours of sailing for two-and-a-half hours of rigging. Not a very good ratio in my opinion. The one time I took my wife and kids the rigging took just enough for the kids to get thoroughly bored and to start pestering us enough to get us angry :-( And the worst part of it is that after an hour of rigging, I am ready to go home and get in bed :-)
I can see now a number of options to improve on this.
Option one: keep the M-17 moored. Obviously that would reduce the rigging time to something very small. The cost of this is not negligible, though (I expect to pay around $800/summer for a mooring). However I have no experience with bottom paint, and the Monty's bottom has never been painted. (It is clean as it came from the factory.) How often does the bottom need painting? Every year, or can it be skipped a year or two? How big a hassle is this? Is it a pity to "dirty" the bottom of a clean Monty?
Option two: keep the Monty with the mast up on the trailer, near a marina. This would be OK, except for the fact that the only marina that provides this service is on the other side of the lake, a 30 minute drive, and at the end of a long channel which takes 20 minuntes to motor through. And the cost is about the same, around $800-1000/ summer.
Option three: create a fleet -- keep both boats. When in a hurry, sail the C-16, when time is not an issue or need more space, sail the Monty (space may or may not be so much of an issue on the C-16: we have sailed her with 4 adults, 5 kids, and a dog on board; we were a bit cramped, but we managed. The only time the Monty would be really better would be if I were to go camping with the kids; my wife swore that she would not sleep in any small sized boat.) Wife may not be too happy with this option
Option four: sell both boats and get an M-15. The question is how much space there is on an M-15 versus the C-16? Would 4 adults sit comfortably in the cockpit of the M-15? It would really help if I could find someone with an M-15 somewhere in my general area (Madison, Wi), so I could look at it and perhaps sail together to get a feel for the boat.
Option five: keep only the M-17, and hope to improve my rigging system. Right now I raise the mast with the system suggested on Bob's website (with a 4-part and a padeye on the mast support), which works great but still takes a lot of time. The rudder cannot stay on the boat (the rear mast support goes in its place), rolling the mast back is complicated by the spreaders, bending the mainsail on the boom is a pain, etc. Anyone has any special tricks to speed things up?
Option six: keep only the C-16 (sad), and in a few years, when kids (and maybe wife?) are more patient, get another M-17. I am worried about the fact that I have read about quite a few people who after owning a Monty were never happy with anything else, so kept buying them. Since a good one is hard to find (and the one I have is good), I am not very inclined to become Monty-less.
What do people who've seen more of all these kinds of boats think about all this? Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Andrei.
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Regarding your wondering about bottom paint . . . When I first saw a Montgomery with bottom paint, I thought "What a shame."? I thought that it unforgiveably wrecked the beauty of the lapstrake shear.? Fast forward a couple of decades, where now my M15 is suspended from the shop rafters, getting hundreds of (thankfully) small gelcoat blisters -- and a half dozen large ones -- repaired, followed by Epiglass, Interprotect barrier coat, and ACT bottom paint.? Believe me, when your hull is hanging there full of holes you've had to gouge into it to cut out and clean the blisters, "What a shame" is very mild compared to your revised thinking about the?wonder of osmosis. So now the maintenance of the bottom is no longer optional for me, and yet I have to admit that it would have been nearly impossible to talk me into a preventative barrier coat and bottom paint earlier, and you may feel this resistance, too.? I mean, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, right?? The inanity of that adage has now set me back many hundreds of dollars and every spare hour of time I've had for the past several weeks, during which I also haven't been sailing in one of the finest summers I've seen in years. I too would recommend having a reputable marina take care of this, unless you're pretty handy.? I have the shop space (big outbuilding that came with the place), the power and hand tools, the laser, a lot of mechanical and construction experience -- and I still would?NEVER do this again on my own (I mean, including the extensive blister repairs.)? I would give up owning a boat, first.? The barrier coat and paint aren't all that difficult, but there's more to even that than meets the eye.? For example, your hull has to be scrubbed with some pretty nasty solvents to de-wax it (sanding alone won't accomplish this).? Also, you have to figure out how you're going to get access to the bottom, and design and assemble that set-up.? And you have to figure out how to get a nice level bootstripe across all those lapstrake ridges!? The marina is all set up for all of this. I'm talking here about the situation in which the boat isn't used as a "trailerable" but sits in the water for extended periods of time, which sounds like one of the plans you're seriously considering.? (And I have to admit, those years when mine was in a slip and I could just drive over after work, hop on board and head out within minutes, were the highest-frequency sailing seasons in my life.)? When the slip fee climbed closer to $1000 (Twin Cities, MN, metro area) for the short northern season, I decided the convenience had become too expensive.? Recently I saw that many slips are empty, now at mid-summer, and available.? Must be the economy.? Maybe the prices have come down, but I'm strictly a trailer-sailor now. Will you ever have a gelcoat problem if you don't barrier coat and paint a moored boat?? You can't know.? Kind of like buying insurance -- you hate to do it, you're never sure you have enough, and you're glad you're covered when the risk becomes reality.? I will say that bottom paint isn't going to look any worse at all than does a slimy layer of algae or a bootstripe that's actually a scum line, and with barrier coat underneath it to fight osmotic contamination of the hull, you've "covered your asset" about as well as you can. -----Original Message----- From: Robbin Roddewig <robbin.roddewig@verizon.net> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 7:25 am Subject: Re: M_Boats: First couple of outings Hi Andrei, sorry to hear you are having some issues. I have made some similar calculations having had a C-16, M-15 and M-17 in that order. I also moved away from the C-16 because of the lack of pointing and slow sailing. The M-15 was not quite large enough for more than two of the boys to come along and I have four. My wife is not upset that she cannot come. I trailered the C-16 to the bay and the M-15 as well since I could keep them in my garage but moved to keeping the M-15 on the hard with the mast up and boom on. This was a much better solution and I should have been more clever and had a cover for the main so it could stay on. I keep my M-17 at a mooring because the launching, packing, washing etc was not fun and my kids (who are teens) and I were too tired out after hauling out. I now have started to single hand the M-17 since two of my crew are now overseas (one crewing in Sydney harbor, lucky sod!) and so having the boat in the water pretty much ready to go is a great option. I can offer a couple of thoughts. I would not be put off by bottom paint. However if you go this route have barrier coat put on before the bottom paint. Fresh water is more apt to find any areas on the hull that may blister and the barrier will help prevent this. Having done repairs and new bottom jobs on the CP-16 and M-17 I would strongly recommend hiring out the bottom work. Most marinas do this as a matter of course on larger boats and yes they do new anti fouling every year. Your mooring fees are pretty cheap compared to my area but I do not know your situation in terms of afford ability. I like having the boat in the water and the only draw back is the cash. But in my case with the boat an hour and a half drive away leaving my 5.7liter V-8 and taking my 2 liter 4 banger makes things more appealing with gas so pricey too! All the best, Robbin Andrei Caldararu wrote:
Hello all,
as I said earlier on, I acquired about 2 weeks ago "Hobbit", a 1982 M-17. After sailing her four time s now, I would like some help in deciding on some things, and I would really appreciate people's opinion on the main question below. Sorry if this message is a bit longish.
Until buying the M-17, I owned (and still own) a Compac 16. Originally I intended on selling the C-16, but now I have doubts. The trouble is that it seems that the C-16 fits for absolutely everything we need to do with it, while the M-17 is a bit more problematic (see below). But the C-16 doesn't sail well, and that is my biggest gripe with it...
We are a family of four, myself, my wife, and two kids ages 6 and 4. As such, not too much time is available, and the kids are not the world's best example of patience (both of these may improve in the future). We sail mostly on the lakes in Madison, WI; they are inland lakes, the largest of which is about 5-6 miles across. I would hope that in the future we'll take some trips to the great lakes (Green Bay or Apostle Islands) but so far we haven't done this.
With the Compac, the routine is fairly simple: the boat stays in a parking lot 1/4 mile from the launching ramp; I attach it to the car, drive to the ramp, rig by myself, launch. If the kids come with me, they play around while I rig. The whole routine takes about 25 minutes (so the kids don't get too bored). If this happens in the afternoon, all of us then sail for about 2-3 hours, and when we're done my wife takes the kids home and I de-rig by myself, another 25 minutes. If we start at 5pm, we're all home by around 9.
With the Monty things are a bit more complicated. Admittedly I am not yet quite up to speed in rigging it, but today's example seems to be the norm. I arrived at the boat at 9:45am, rigged alone till 11, sailed until 2:15, derigged and put the boat away until 3:30. So I got 3 hours of sailing for two-and-a-half hours of rigging. Not a very good ratio in my opinion. The one time I took my wife and kids the riggin g took just enough for the kids to get thoroughly bored and to start pestering us enough to get us angry :-( And the worst part of it is that after an hour of rigging, I am ready to go home and get in bed :-)
I can see now a number of options to improve on this.
Option one: keep the M-17 moored. Obviously that would reduce the rigging time to something very small. The cost of this is not negligible, though (I expect to pay around $800/summer for a mooring). However I have no experience with bottom paint, and the Monty's bottom has never been painted. (It is clean as it came from the factory.) How often does the bottom need painting? Every year, or can it be skipped a year or two? How big a hassle is this? Is it a pity to "dirty" the bottom of a clean Monty?
Option two: keep the Monty with the mast up on the trailer, near a marina. This would be OK, except for the fact that the only marina that provides this service is on the other side of the lake, a 30 minute drive, and at the end of a long channel which takes 20 minuntes to motor through. And the cost is about the same, around $800-1000/ summer.
Option three: create a fleet -- keep both boats. When in a hurry, sail the C-16, when time is not an issue or need more space, sail the Monty (space may or may not be so much of an issue on the C-16: we have sailed her with 4 adults, 5 kids, and a dog on board; we were a bit cramped, but we managed. The only time the Monty would be really better would be if I were to go camping with the kids; my wife swore that she would not sleep in any small sized boat.) Wife may not be too happy with this option
Option four: sell both boats and get an M-15. The question is how much space there is on an M-15 versus the C-16? Would 4 adults sit comfortably in the cockpit of the M-15? It would really help if I could find someone with an M-15 somewhere in my general area (Madison, Wi), so I could look at it and perh aps sail together to get a feel for the boat.
Option five: keep only the M-17, and hope to improve my rigging system. Right now I raise the mast with the system suggested on Bob's website (with a 4-part and a padeye on the mast support), which works great but still takes a lot of time. The rudder cannot stay on the boat (the rear mast support goes in its place), rolling the mast back is complicated by the spreaders, bending the mainsail on the boom is a pain, etc. Anyone has any special tricks to speed things up?
Option six: keep only the C-16 (sad), and in a few years, when kids (and maybe wife?) are more patient, get another M-17. I am worried about the fact that I have read about quite a few people who after owning a Monty were never happy with anything else, so kept buying them. Since a good one is hard to find (and the one I have is good), I am not very inclined to become Monty-less.
What do people who've seen more of all these kinds of boats think about all this? Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Andrei.
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From what I hear here, no one seems to give the impression that sailing the C-16, even part time, would be a viable option. So let's say I stick with the M-17 for good. This leaves three options: a) Boat on trailer, mast down, reduce rigging time. Has any one tried anything like the Compac Suncat hinged mast (mast tender) option? This is a system in which the mast is cut at a point above the boom, and hinged there. The mainsail stays on the boom, boom stays in place for trailering (sail is covered with a sail cover), the mast hinges back and rests in a support on the back of the boat. My main concerns are: how solid such a system is, and how hard is it to install it (seems to require cutting a hole in the top of the cabin, since the bottom part of the mast has to be secured solid to the compression post in the cabin). The advantage is that all you have to do is raise the top part of the mast (lighter), attach the jib, and you're ready to sail. b) Boat on trailer, near water, mast up, fully rigged. I have some hints on where I could find a parking spot near the water closer to where I live, I'll have to research this. Obviously this would be the best solution, if I can find the right parking spot. c) Boat in the water. Clearly needing bottom paint, I'll talk to a marina to find out what it would cost to put barrier coat and bottom paint. Will research the price of this as well. To answer some of the questions. Right now I have manufactured a rear mast support from a 2x4 that has a roller on top, and which sits on top of the rudder gudgeons. However, the way my mast is set up, rolling it back until the spreaders hit the support is not enough to get the mast bolt in, I need an extra 5 inches. Right now I was thinking of modifying the mast support (this would already be the 5th iteration in 2 weeks!) so that it sits at a slightly backward angle, and thus give me the extra 5 inches. Any other suggestions? What seems to take an awful lot of time is just the going back-and- forth. Here's how I do it now. I remove the bungees that hold the mast at top and bottom. Hop in the boat, roll mast back to spreaders from the front. Holding the mast to not balance backwards, walk back to the rear support, lift mast up and move the spreaders past the mast support (the extra 5 inches). Walk forward, put the bolt into the hinge. Remove sail ties holding spreaders and stays. Open cabin, get the mainsheet system. Walk to bow, attach one of the halves of the mainsheet system to padeye on front mast support, the other half to the forestay. Start pulling on the mainsheet, thus raising the mast. This only raises the mast 2/3 of the way, walk back and push the mast all the way. Prior to this need to check that spreaders are in the right position, and the rear triangular bracket holding backstay is straight. Walk forward and attach the forestay; tighten it. Remove the mainsheet system, walk it back to the cockpit. Loosen the strap holding the gunwales. Get off the boat, remove the gunwale strap from the trailer, remove the boom and rudder from their storage place underneath the boat, on the trailer (I don't know if this is a custom system, or if some boats were supplied with this system, but the rudder and the mast stay in a support on the trailer). Walk to the back of the boat, remove the mast support from the rudder hinge, put rudder on. Put boom in the boat, put the mast support in the trunk of the car. Hop back in the boat. Remove topping lift from where it is attached on the mast, attach to rear of boom, insert gooseneck into mast. Attach the mainsheet to boom and traveler. Attach the boom vang to mast and boom. Remove sails from the cabin, take the foresail to bow, clip it on, using the halyard to keep it up. Throw the sheets to the two sides, run them through the blocks, around the winches, cleat them. Attach the mainsail halyard to the mainsail, insert the head of the sail in the track, loosely cleat the halyard. Bend the mainsheet on the boom, attach the clew at the gooseneck, tighten the outhaul, roll it twice around the boom, strap it with a sail tie. Take the tiller from cabin, attach it to rudder. Hang four bumpers on the boat, attach bow and transom docking lines. Clean up the mess in the cockpit. Get off the boat. Release the bow winch line. Finally ready to back the boat in the water. What do you see here that could be improved? Thanks, Andrei.
<<What do you see here that could be improved?>> Don't forget to have fun! Accept the rigging and prep and take-down as part of the privilege of getting to participate in something as enjoyable as sailing your own boat, under your command and control.??Most days I can't believe I get to do this.? I told a friend recently that I figured I'd have done my parenting job if my kids had learned how to use a basic set of hand tools, learned to read music and play an instrument, learned a second language with at least reading comprehension, learned to swim -- and learned to sail.? My son is now in college at the U.S. Merchant Marine Academy, so something about being on the water every summer for 20 years must have "taken."? I have to admit that I'm still working on my daughter to make her a completely?self-sufficient sailor, though she loves the boat (and owns a Nutshell sailing pram.) Work out a compact to get some of those riders to help out and schlep stuff around.? It does get tedious and resentment can set in if everyone else goes "fishing" while the work's being done.? Assigning even a few minor tasks speeds things up a lot, and gives everyone an investment in the activity.? I know, for example, that I'll be able to just hand off the shroud adjusters and they'll be pinned and the cotter rings set while I'm working on something else.? Once I loosen the trailer tie-downs, someone other than me is perfectly capable of unhooking them and tossing them in the back of the vehicle.? Hanking on the jib is an easy job for someone to learn and perform, while I'm working on the main.? You can do a quick inspection before?launch to?double-check things. ?It's all enough to shave a few minutes off the prep time. Perspective makes a big difference.? If you think of rigging the boat as part of sailing, rather than a discrete chore to be accomplished as quickly as possible so the fun part can begin, it pays well.? Resolve to enjoy all of it.? (I don't?ever want to do another gelcoat blister repair project, but even preparing for it and carrying it out -- once -- has given some pleasure of acquired knowledge and of accomplishment.? Just takin' care of my boat, as any skipper would.)?People see your boat out there on the water in a breeze, or even on a trailer headed for water, and they dream of being part of the community of people who sail. -----Original Message----- From: Andrei Caldararu <andreic@math.wisc.edu> To: For and about Montgomery Sailboats <montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Sent: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 10:59 am Subject: Re: M_Boats: First couple of outings From what I hear here, no one seems to give the impression that sailing the C-16, even part time, would be a viable option. So let's say I stick with the M-17 for good. This leaves three options: a) Boat on trailer, mast down, reduce rigging time. Has any one tried anything like the Compac Suncat hinged mast (mast tender) option? This is a system in which the mast is cut at a point above the boom, and hinged there. The mainsail stays on the boom, boom stays in place for trailering (sail is covered with a sail cover), the mast hinges back and rests in a support on the back of the boat. My main concerns are: how solid such a system is, and how hard is it to install it (seems to require cutting a hole in the top of the cabin, since the bottom part of the mast has to be secured solid to the compression post in the cabin). The advantage is that all you have to do is raise the top part of the mast (lighter), attach the jib, and you're ready to sail. b) Boat on trailer, near water, mast up, fully rigged. I have some hints on where I could find a parking spot near the water closer to where I live, I'll have to research this. Obviously this would be the best solution, if I can find the right parking spot. c) Boat in the water. Clearly needing bottom paint, I'll talk to a marina to find out what it would cost to put barrier coat and bottom paint. Will research the price of this as well. To answer some of the questions. Right now I have manufactured a rear mast support from a 2x4 that has a roller on top, and which sits on top of the rudder gudgeons. However, the way my mast is set up, rolling it back until the spreaders hit the support is not enough to get the mast bolt in, I need an extra 5 inches. Right now I was thinking of modifying the mast support (this would already be the 5th iteration in 2 weeks!) so that it sits at a slightly backward angle, and thus give me the extra 5 inches. Any other suggestions? What seems to take an awful lot of time is just the going b ack-and- forth. Here's how I do it now. I remove the bungees that hold the mast at top and bottom. Hop in the boat, roll mast back to spreaders from the front. Holding the mast to not balance backwards, walk back to the rear support, lift mast up and move the spreaders past the mast support (the extra 5 inches). Walk forward, put the bolt into the hinge. Remove sail ties holding spreaders and stays. Open cabin, get the mainsheet system. Walk to bow, attach one of the halves of the mainsheet system to padeye on front mast support, the other half to the forestay. Start pulling on the mainsheet, thus raising the mast. This only raises the mast 2/3 of the way, walk back and push the mast all the way. Prior to this need to check that spreaders are in the right position, and the rear triangular bracket holding backstay is straight. Walk forward and attach the forestay; tighten it. Remove the mainsheet system, walk it back to the cockpit. Loosen the strap holding the gunwales. Get off the boat, remove the gunwale strap from the trailer, remove the boom and rudder from their storage place underneath the boat, on the trailer (I don't know if this is a custom system, or if some boats were supplied with this system, but the rudder and the mast stay in a support on the trailer). Walk to the back of the boat, remove the mast support from the rudder hinge, put rudder on. Put boom in the boat, put the mast support in the trunk of the car. Hop back in the boat. Remove topping lift from where it is attached on the mast, attach to rear of boom, insert gooseneck into mast. Attach the mainsheet to boom and traveler. Attach the boom vang to mast and boom. Remove sails from the cabin, take the foresail to bow, clip it on, using the halyard to keep it up. Throw the sheets to the two sides, run them through the blocks, around the winches, cleat them. Attach the mainsail halyard to the mainsail, insert the head of the sail in the track, loosely cleat the halyard. Bend the mainshe et on the boom, attach the clew at the gooseneck, tighten the outhaul, roll it twice around the boom, strap it with a sail tie. Take the tiller from cabin, attach it to rudder. Hang four bumpers on the boat, attach bow and transom docking lines. Clean up the mess in the cockpit. Get off the boat. Release the bow winch line. Finally ready to back the boat in the water. What do you see here that could be improved? Thanks, Andrei. _______________________________________________ http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
Hi Andrei, As a former big boat owner (29 foot), who went trrailerable with a Bolger MICRO, let me give you my $.02 worth of experience... The MICRO at 15 feet was a great sailer.... Loads of interior room in the cabin (it's a square box), and we thoroughly enjoyed such an unorthodox ship as a cat yawl. ....but, stepping a free-standing 21 foot long mast in the bow well by holding it at about an 85 degree angle became more than I could handle. So, boat size was right; mast stepping problem had to be surmounted. That's when I found a derelict ComPac 16: aluminum mast; shrouds;.... easy mast stepping, .... and bought it. After overhauling it totally, and then sailing it, as an old spoiled sailor what I found and objected to were: - No sail lockers.... Where do you put all the things that are needed on a boat? The mooring lines, fenders, fender board; second anchor and rode; cleaning materials; sails.... etc. - Berths under the cockpit seats? My wife and I were used to a luxurious wide double berth in our big boat. - What do you do with the whole forward area? - Worst of all it turned out to be a very poor sail boat. So, having learned that a ComPac 16 was not our cup of tea, I went searching for a replacement which turned out to be a Montgomery 15. That made us blissfully happy again. Good berths; good sail lockers; excellent sailing characteristics. The only reason for selling the M15 - which we loved - was encroaching old age and increasing lack of agility. My recommendation to you: Keep the M17, it will sail happily with four people aboard. The M15 is great for two, and maybe a small third, but it certainly is not a boat for two adults and two teenagers. The first few times you rig the boat are the hardest and take the longest time. You are at the start of the Learning Curve. After making one mistake after another, and then correcting them the next time you raise a mast, the job gets easier and easier....... You finally become a mast raising professional. Enjoy your M17. It's a great boat. Connie ex M15 #400 Andrei Caldararu wrote:
Hello all,
as I said earlier on, I acquired about 2 weeks ago "Hobbit", a 1982 M-17. After sailing her four times now, I would like some help in deciding on some things, and I would really appreciate people's opinion on the main question below. Sorry if this message is a bit longish.
Until buying the M-17, I owned (and still own) a Compac 16. Originally I intended on selling the C-16, but now I have doubts. The trouble is that it seems that the C-16 fits for absolutely everything we need to do with it, while the M-17 is a bit more problematic (see below). But the C-16 doesn't sail well, and that is my biggest gripe with it...
We are a family of four, myself, my wife, and two kids ages 6 and 4. As such, not too much time is available, and the kids are not the world's best example of patience (both of these may improve in the future). We sail mostly on the lakes in Madison, WI; they are inland lakes, the largest of which is about 5-6 miles across. I would hope that in the future we'll take some trips to the great lakes (Green Bay or Apostle Islands) but so far we haven't done this.
With the Compac, the routine is fairly simple: the boat stays in a parking lot 1/4 mile from the launching ramp; I attach it to the car, drive to the ramp, rig by myself, launch. If the kids come with me, they play around while I rig. The whole routine takes about 25 minutes (so the kids don't get too bored). If this happens in the afternoon, all of us then sail for about 2-3 hours, and when we're done my wife takes the kids home and I de-rig by myself, another 25 minutes. If we start at 5pm, we're all home by around 9.
With the Monty things are a bit more complicated. Admittedly I am not yet quite up to speed in rigging it, but today's example seems to be the norm. I arrived at the boat at 9:45am, rigged alone till 11, sailed until 2:15, derigged and put the boat away until 3:30. So I got 3 hours of sailing for two-and-a-half hours of rigging. Not a very good ratio in my opinion. The one time I took my wife and kids the rigging took just enough for the kids to get thoroughly bored and to start pestering us enough to get us angry :-( And the worst part of it is that after an hour of rigging, I am ready to go home and get in bed :-)
I can see now a number of options to improve on this.
Option one: keep the M-17 moored. Obviously that would reduce the rigging time to something very small. The cost of this is not negligible, though (I expect to pay around $800/summer for a mooring). However I have no experience with bottom paint, and the Monty's bottom has never been painted. (It is clean as it came from the factory.) How often does the bottom need painting? Every year, or can it be skipped a year or two? How big a hassle is this? Is it a pity to "dirty" the bottom of a clean Monty?
Option two: keep the Monty with the mast up on the trailer, near a marina. This would be OK, except for the fact that the only marina that provides this service is on the other side of the lake, a 30 minute drive, and at the end of a long channel which takes 20 minuntes to motor through. And the cost is about the same, around $800-1000/ summer.
Option three: create a fleet -- keep both boats. When in a hurry, sail the C-16, when time is not an issue or need more space, sail the Monty (space may or may not be so much of an issue on the C-16: we have sailed her with 4 adults, 5 kids, and a dog on board; we were a bit cramped, but we managed. The only time the Monty would be really better would be if I were to go camping with the kids; my wife swore that she would not sleep in any small sized boat.) Wife may not be too happy with this option
Option four: sell both boats and get an M-15. The question is how much space there is on an M-15 versus the C-16? Would 4 adults sit comfortably in the cockpit of the M-15? It would really help if I could find someone with an M-15 somewhere in my general area (Madison, Wi), so I could look at it and perhaps sail together to get a feel for the boat.
Option five: keep only the M-17, and hope to improve my rigging system. Right now I raise the mast with the system suggested on Bob's website (with a 4-part and a padeye on the mast support), which works great but still takes a lot of time. The rudder cannot stay on the boat (the rear mast support goes in its place), rolling the mast back is complicated by the spreaders, bending the mainsail on the boom is a pain, etc. Anyone has any special tricks to speed things up?
Option six: keep only the C-16 (sad), and in a few years, when kids (and maybe wife?) are more patient, get another M-17. I am worried about the fact that I have read about quite a few people who after owning a Monty were never happy with anything else, so kept buying them. Since a good one is hard to find (and the one I have is good), I am not very inclined to become Monty-less.
What do people who've seen more of all these kinds of boats think about all this? Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Andrei.
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Thanks to all of you who offered an opinion. We went yesterday on the lake again with the M-17, and the rigging and de-rigging went much better this time. I guess it'll get better with experience. A few more questions: -- I am now refinishing the outside wood, which was covered in some kind of varnish which was peeling badly. What do people prefer, leave the teak oiled and not varnish it, or put a coat of Cetol on it? -- there are some spots on the deck where some small dark spots are starting to appear. I guess it is probably some light mold. Any suggestions for products to remove it, and then is there something I could put on to stunt its growth? -- how do you remove old decals (old registration numbers/registration stickers)? -- I have found at Home Depot a product called liquid fiberglass, which you pour on wood and they say it creates a coating like 60 layers of varnish. Has anyone used anything like this? I wanted to use it on the spots on the rudder where the existing varnish is peeling, as a temporary fix. In the future I was planning on stripping the entire rudder and recoating it in this stuff. -- are the hatch boards teak or regular wood? How do you strip them? -- and my old question: how urgent is it to rebed all the deck hardware? What compund do people use to seal the screws? How long a job is it? Any hints on how to do the job? My deck is in very good shape, with no soft spots, but I'd like to keep it that way. I had hoped to do this job in the fall, nowadays when I have free time I'd rather go sailing... -- is there any special maintenance that needs to be done to the two centerboard bolts? The gelcoat around them shows slight signs of rust on an area maybe 1/4" around the bolt. Also, the gelcoat around the rear bolt shows some small cracks, and has started to slightly bubble off. I could post some photos later. What needs to be done about this? The cb itself is moving very easily up and down. Thanks, Andrei.
Anderi, Question #1: Oil or varnish? It is a matter of personal preference. You will probably have as much debate as the boltrope or slugs question. I personally use 6 coats of UV resistant marine spar varnish on my teak after touroghly cleaning and lightly sanding it. Question #2: I clean the fiberglass with a good cleaner like 409, use soft scrub to remove any stubborn spots then, for protection, I put on 2 coats of auto paste wax which I renew anually. The algie and mold doesn't stick well to a waxed surface. Question #3: I remove old decals by carefully scraping them off with a single edge razpr blade. I then remove any remaining sticky adhesive with a product called "Goo Gone". Question # 4: Sounds like a product I once used. Looked good for awhile but, when it peeled, it peeled in chunks. I don't think it holds up well to UV. I sanded, repaired and fiberglass sheathed my rudder then painted it to match the topsides and bottom paint. Question # 5: The hatch boards are probably marine grade mahogany plywood or maybe solid teak. You can remove the old varnish by carefully scraping it and then lightly sanding. Be careful not to scrape or sand through the veneer to the cheaper wood underneath if it is plywood. The boards can then be varnished with a good UV resistant marine spar varnish. Question #7: If the bedding compound has cracks in it, it is time to re-bed. Otherwise it can wait till the off season. Question # 8: Beats me, my M17 is one of the rare origonal fixed keel boats (only 20 made in 1974). Ron M17 #14 Griselda> From: andreic@math.wisc.edu> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:22:01 -0500> Subject: Re: M_Boats: First couple of outings> > Thanks to all of you who offered an opinion. We went yesterday on the > lake again with the M-17, and the rigging and de-rigging went much > better this time. I guess it'll get better with experience.> > A few more questions:> > -- I am now refinishing the outside wood, which was covered in some > kind of varnish which was peeling badly. What do people prefer, leave > the teak oiled and not varnish it, or put a coat of Cetol on it?> -- there are some spots on the deck where some small dark spots are > starting to appear. I guess it is probably some light mold. Any > suggestions for products to remove it, and then is there something I > could put on to stunt its growth?> -- how do you remove old decals (old registration numbers/registration > stickers)?> -- I have found at Home Depot a product called liquid fiberglass, > which you pour on wood and they say it creates a coating like 60 > layers of varnish. Has anyone used anything like this? I wanted to use > it on the spots on the rudder where the existing varnish is peeling, > as a temporary fix. In the future I was planning on stripping the > entire rudder and recoating it in this stuff.> -- are the hatch boards teak or regular wood? How do you strip them?> -- and my old question: how urgent is it to rebed all the deck > hardware? What compund do people use to seal the screws? How long a > job is it? Any hints on how to do the job? My deck is in very good > shape, with no soft spots, but I'd like to keep it that way. I had > hoped to do this job in the fall, nowadays when I have free time I'd > rather go sailing...> -- is there any special maintenance that needs to be done to the two > centerboard bolts? The gelcoat around them shows slight signs of rust > on an area maybe 1/4" around the bolt. Also, the gelcoat around the > rear bolt shows some small cracks, and has started to slightly bubble > off. I could post some photos later. What needs to be done about this? > The cb itself is moving very easily up and down.> > Thanks,> > Andrei.> > _______________________________________________> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats _________________________________________________________________ Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL...
.....when I removed the reg numbers on my boat a 'ghost' image remained. (scraper and solvent) That was three years ago. Although it is not as visible now, I can still see it when I look for it. Not an issue, but just thought I would mention it. Gotta go sailing now...
Hi Andrei, More $.02 worth of experience: Teak needs maintenance As you said, the choices are: - varnish it, ... use Cetol, or.... - leave it natural and just oil it I have tried them all, and sooner or later you are faced with the job of refinishing your teak. With varnish, it looks good, .... for awhile, but then moisture finds a lower edge (at the deck) and starts lifting the varnish from the teak. The lifting film turns yellow. Eventually you have to strip the varnish and do it all over again - good for several years - but it still requires redoing.... I used Cetol on my M15 and was pleased with the ease of application and with the results. It lasted as long as we owned the M15. Teak oil is another possibility, but it too requires periodic refinishing and reoiling. ....or you can just clean the teak using two part teak clean (be careful and use rubber gloves) and let it slowly weather. It turns a nice shade of gray. So, it all depends on what kind of teak finish you are willing to live with and maintain. ------------------------- To remove old stickers (registration numbers) try a hair dryer to soften the adhesive, and then use a fairly sharp putty knife to lift off the plastic remains. Once the numbers and letters are off, try acetone to remove the rest of the adhesive; ...or try GOO-OF which is formulated to do just that. ------------------- If you are planning to refinish the rudder anyway, why not give the HOME DEPOT product a try? ....otherwise, if you just have small area without varnish, I'd just take a baby food jar with some marine varnish and touch up the spots, till you do the full job this winter. ------------------- My M15 hatch boards were made of teak faced plywood, and when I bought the boat they were separating at the plies. I made new ones after buying a piece of teak faced plywood. To remove varnish from any surface, there are two basic methods: chemically or mechanically With the chemical method you use a stripper that lifts the old varnish so that you eventually have a clean surface, which you then have to sand and refinish. The mechanical method is to take a /_*sharp*_/ scraper (about 2" wide is a good size) and "carefully" remove the varnish. By carefully I mean not digging into the base wood so that you leave deep gauges that then have to be repaired. Once you have tried it and developed a feel for the process it works nicely. I guess the basic question is: how large is the surface? What condition is the varnish in? ... if it is already peeling off, scraping probably is the easier approach. (but watch out for MURPHY. He is always standing behind you ready to cackle with laughter when you try to scrape a surface and then find out that the varnish has been welded in place. When I started to refinish the ComPac 16, which had been painted with latex house paint, the first 6" long strips of paint came off very easily. I rejoiced. This striping was going to go easily I thought.... Then MURPHY entered the picture. The whole rest of the hull came off in 1" square pieces - done the hard way - inch by square inch.... So, you never know what awaits you till you start the project.) --------------------- Rebedding hardware: First question: Are there any signs of moisture; or water tracks on the underside of the deck at the bolts and nuts holding things in place? If yes, then a rebedding is needed - in the future. This is not a "stop everything and do it now" sort of problem, unless, of course, you are sleeping in a berth; it's raining outside; and you find water dripping in your face. That is the sort of problem that I then fix immediately. Otherwise it becomes an item on your "To Do" list for next spring. ---------------------------- For your mildew problem I'd try a mild cleaner like "Bartenders Friend" - which also does a nice job of cleaning your metal fittings. Wet the area, put some of the Bartenders Friend powder on a soft scrub brush, and go to work. It should disappear. Then rinse the area. Connie Andrei Caldararu wrote:
Thanks to all of you who offered an opinion. We went yesterday on the lake again with the M-17, and the rigging and de-rigging went much better this time. I guess it'll get better with experience.
A few more questions:
-- I am now refinishing the outside wood, which was covered in some kind of varnish which was peeling badly. What do people prefer, leave the teak oiled and not varnish it, or put a coat of Cetol on it? -- there are some spots on the deck where some small dark spots are starting to appear. I guess it is probably some light mold. Any suggestions for products to remove it, and then is there something I could put on to stunt its growth? -- how do you remove old decals (old registration numbers/registration stickers)? -- I have found at Home Depot a product called liquid fiberglass, which you pour on wood and they say it creates a coating like 60 layers of varnish. Has anyone used anything like this? I wanted to use it on the spots on the rudder where the existing varnish is peeling, as a temporary fix. In the future I was planning on stripping the entire rudder and recoating it in this stuff. -- are the hatch boards teak or regular wood? How do you strip them? -- and my old question: how urgent is it to rebed all the deck hardware? What compund do people use to seal the screws? How long a job is it? Any hints on how to do the job? My deck is in very good shape, with no soft spots, but I'd like to keep it that way. I had hoped to do this job in the fall, nowadays when I have free time I'd rather go sailing... -- is there any special maintenance that needs to be done to the two centerboard bolts? The gelcoat around them shows slight signs of rust on an area maybe 1/4" around the bolt. Also, the gelcoat around the rear bolt shows some small cracks, and has started to slightly bubble off. I could post some photos later. What needs to be done about this? The cb itself is moving very easily up and down.
Thanks,
Andrei.
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participants (8)
-
Andrei Caldararu -
chbenneck＠sbcglobal.net -
Gordon Gilbert -
paint4real＠aol.com -
Robbin Roddewig -
Ronnie Keeler -
Tim Diebert -
W David Scobie